I have a new .6 acre pond that's two months old in the Tidewater area of Virginia. Before starting to stock I figure there has to be some vegetation (alga whatever) for the forage fish to eat. Since it is a free standing pond I have no feeder water to supply any of this. Should I be doing anything or waiting for Ma nature ??
Mike G at Seville

Mike G at Seville

Let nature run its course. For the most part, your initial small forage fish will only be eating the microscopic forms of life in the pond, not the larger plants. These life forms are everywhere and wont need your help.

Also algae will show up all on it's own if there are nutrients in the water.

Unless you want to establish desirable plants before the undesirables show up, you can just leave them alone.

Search for forums for desirable water plant species.

Mike,

I also have a new pond with no vegetation other than algae. Next summer will be the pond's second year. I am following the second approach Liquidsquid suggests; establish desirable plants before the undesirables show up. Bill Cody was nice enough to help me work up a strategy of what plants to plant for a Northern Illinois pond and I will be executing the plan as soon as the water warms in the spring. My thought is to get the good guys in place and established before the bad guys move in and cause a problem.

Edit Bill D.

Just realized I should have posted what we came up with for me.

We came up with Lizard Tail, Arrowhead and additional beneficial pond plants were all the Sagittaria species, the blue flag (Iris), and water plantain. Additional ones would be the shorter growing Spike Rush. There is an underwater growing Sagittaria called Dwarf Sagittaria that is a very good submerged plant. Some of the info came from an Illinois DNR report that rated plants on how good they are as habitat vs invasiveness, and a lot came from Bill. Your DNR might have a similar report for your area.

Bill D.

Some like the relatively shallow growing underwater floating leaf, longleaf pond weed aka American pondweed (Potomogeton nodosus). Left unchecked it can get pretty 'thick' with dense floating leaf mats from shore out to around 3-5ft deep. Does anyone see it growing deeper than 6ft??? The book says depth of growth is 6 ft but the plants often do not read the book. The eel grass in my pond has almost crowded out the longleaf pondweed. I planted the longleaf when the pond was new buy now after 14 years its occurrence is sparse.
http://www.outdooralabama.com/long-leaf-pondweed
http://www.thismia.com/P/Potamogeton_nodosus.html
https://gobotany.newenglandwild.org/species/potamogeton/nodosus/
http://delawarewildflowers.org/plant.php?id=1567

Long leaf pond weed is about the only Potomogeton specie that is commercially available.

Thanks. I'm off to find the desirable plants.

Bill D. have you found sources for all your plants yet? If so could you send a pm as to where they are available? My pond is currently filling now and I am hoping to get some plants and my forage fish introduced next year if I get lucky enough to get a wet enough winter/spring to bring it up to level. I would assume most plants that will work for you should work in southern IL as well.

Also do you have a link to the report from IDNR that you mentioned?

The good folks at Keystone Hatchery provided me with this recommendation. I haven't checked it out yet.

"If you are looking at doing any kind of lineal footage planting you should look up Kesters Wild game or J and J Tranzplant for bulk ordering. I think there may be a few others around the Chicago area as well."

I don't have a link for the report but if you shoot me an e-mail, I will be happy to forward you a copy.

Email sent! Thank you very much.

Report sent. Let me know if you don't receive it.

Enjoy!

Bill

Got it. Thank you sir!

I'd like to get a copy of the plant sources also..
I'll send you a pm with my email address. My pond is over by Hannibal Mo, not that much south of yours.
I'm going to get plantings in this spring.
I just have basically clay and rock for the pond base, and it's all been Sheepsfoot rolled.
Not sure it would be considered "ideal" for growing anything. Are either of you guys doing anything to prep the soil (below the water surface) for planting?

SetterGuy,

I e-mailed you the report. Let me know if you don't get it.

Enjoy!

Bill

Got it. That was fast.
Thanks

Spring is around the corner so time to start thinking about getting some of these plants started. What water temp do I need before trying to plant? Any other tips? Should I just observe when vegetation is going green and starting to grow in nearby waters and figure I am good to go?

Since you are most likely going to get wet you want the water to be relatively warm.

Good point!

I want to try to get some hardy lilies going this year. They are not inexpensive so I want to plant as few as I can and still have a patch. Do they spread on their own or is it.... what you plant is what you get?

Hardy water lilies spread slow and fast depending on the variety. Generally dwarfs and small types spread slower and large varieties spreading fairly fast. Wild white water lilies spread the fastest by seeds, rhizome buds, and root growth. Since hybrid lilies are fairly expensive I would first pot them in appropriate sized shallow 6"-12" high and a minimum 8x12wxL tubs with garden soil 4"-6" deep. Let them grow it the tubs for 1-2 years then divide the abundant growth and transplant them into the pond or more tubs to get them reestablished before introducing them into the final pond mud bottom locations.

Thanks Bill!

For the DIY potted & divided lilies, survival will be better compared to directly planting bare root lily rhizomes. Be leery of boughten potted lilies because they are likely to have unwanted piggy back plants in the pots. Hardy lilies are usually grown in weedy shallow nursery ponds where piggy back plants and seeds can easily be included in the potted lily. I have always used bare root lily rhizomes from the lily water garden suppliers. Nuisance plants are very easy to get started when transplanting aquatic plants.

Bill,

Have you ever tried potting lilies using a biodegradable pot? The ones I use for my trees take about two years to fully degrade in the ground. What do you think about trying that on a couple? Or if not lilies, some of the other plants I will be planting. I have several different sizes of the pots.

I have never used biodegradable pots in the pond. They could work okay. When I pot lilies I first get them growing in shallow water then as leaves appear and it looks like the lily will continue growing I move the pot deeper as more leaves appear. If you use the decomposable pots and lilies are growing I would make a depression in the pond bottom so the top of the pot is close to the sediment surface. Hybrid lilies will spread fairly slowly if growing in compacted pond clay which is pro and con depending on ones goals.

Bill D. ,

When I started my lilies 3 years ago I needed a lot of containers, like 35 or of them. So I went to the Dollar Store and bought a bunch of clear plastic shoe boxes. I planted the bare roots in the boxes using dirt from the bottom of my pond. I placed the boxes in the shallow part of my pond as Bill Cody instructed me to do and moved them deeper as they grew. During June of that year, I had to move all of them into a mesh pen I made to protect the young lilies from a slime algae problem I was having. The only problem with the shoe boxes is that they are not very big and I had to transplant the lilies to the pond bottom at the end of the summer. Once the lilies start to grow in your containers you can fertilize them with tomato fertilizer spikes.

Good luck!
sean

Thanks for the input Sean. How are your lilies doing?

You will be surprised what you will find at the recycling center as planting containers for lilies. As examples: 2.5 gal jugs with the side cut out work well and cat litter buckets with the tops cut down to 8" work good.

mr Bill Cody has more good particle ideas that any body. Thanks Bill

Most of them are doing well! I fertilize them twice a year and the ones that are planted in soft mud areas are really looking great. The ones that were planted in harder clay areas are growing slowly. I will post some pictures later this summer after they have started to bloom.

sean

Bill Cody,

I wish I would have thought about the recycling center before I bought all of the shoe boxes. Lol! Great idea!

sean

I ordered a few plants today. Question is what water depth to plant them. I have a water table pond that varies in level about 3 feet thru the year (based on limited 2 years of observation.)

This time around I am planting:

Sagittaria, Dwarf Subulata (Sagittaria subulata)
Sulphurea (M) Hardy Water Lily (Yellow)
LIZARD'S TAIL (Saururus cernuus)
CATTAIL, DWARF (Typha minima)

Pond is currently near low pool but expecting a lot of rain this week so may be up a couple of feet by the time the plants arrive. How deep of water can each of these species be planted and survive/thrive? Visibility is 18 to 24 inches but will be turbid after the rain.

Any help would be appreciated!

Bill D.

I'm curious about this also. I'm down about 3.5 to 4' from full pool. I'd like to start planting, but am concerned plantings will be too deep.
Bill, where did you order plants?
Thx!

I gave this place a try

http://www.aquariumplants.com/

Unless somebody can give me a better answer, I will plant for normal pool level and hope for survival when the level swings temporarily 2 or 3 feet higher.

Plants arrived today and were not what I expected. These plants were great! Spent the afternoon planting them. Assume I will spend tomorrow afternoon skimming the ones that float up and replanting!

Placed another plant order today from a different place. Will see how they are.

Calla palustris - Water Arum
Juncus effusus - Soft Rush
Elocharis plaustris - Creeping Spike-Rush
Pontederia cordata - Pickerel Plant
Sagittaria latiforia - Duck Potato

Good to hear the first order came in better than expected. Then you chose a second place for the next order? Just because you ordered different items?
Would you mind posting a picture or two showing how and where you planted. I'm getting a little of this storm coming thru the Midwest, but not much. Up a couple of inches, but I need more water. Ha

Bill D, with all that growing in your pond, u may be the go to guy for pond vegies in the future. keep us posted on how they do in your pond. Good or bad

Tracy

Tried a second place because they have some of the plants I want that the first place didn't have. Also, price seems a little lower.

Keeping my orders very small at this point as I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing and learning as I go! I haven't found much on the internet that specifically addresses how to plant most of these plants in a fish pond. The info seems mostly geared towards aquariums and koi ponds.

I will try to get a few pics today, assuming the plants are still there and haven't floated away!

Tracy,

I will be very happy to share my journey. If I am fortunate enough that I get some good populations going, I would also be happy to share some starter plants with folks wanting to try them.

Thanks to Bill C. as he has been my species selection advisor!

Bill D.

Thanks Bill, you r way north of me and I find it interesting of the plants that you get growing over what I might get growing. Different strokes for different folks My planting dates r coming soon (I hope). Did u try the rocks and burlap tossed into the pond?

Tracy

I used that method on one of the water lilies. I also planted one in a biodegradeable pot and one directly in the pond bottom in 18 inches of water. The rest so far are marginals so just planted them in a few inches of water.

Here are some pics. Sorry for the quality. Water is pretty muddy right now.

Folks,

All suggestions/critiques on how I could have done this better would be appreciated. I am on a learning curve here! Please let me know if you see any glaring mistakes, or even little ones. One I see is I need to untangle the leaves on that lily.

Thanks,

Bill D.

Let em grow!

Sure hope yer right. I am planting a little of a lot of species recommended by Bill C. to see what will thrive in my puddle. Hopefully, some will!

RAH, that is an awesome pic. Your plants look awesome and diverse. Did you seed a prepared mix, or plant one at a time? Good looking pond too.

Pics look good. I've just got rocks and hard packed clay. Not sure anything will grow in it.

I agree! We need more info on that!!

Beautiful bet the snakes like it too

LET EM GROW!

Well said lunker.

There is so much beauty in the eye of the behold. This is what is I saw in the lowly cattail just as the sunrise broke into the open early yesterday morning. A pond is so much more then a body of water.

The picture really does not do justice to these plants. The plants are wonderful. I find that planting seedlings works best, but my wife can grow seedlings of just about anything for us to plant. We also did some seeding in two wetland that we had built (along with planting seedlings) and that can work as well. My personal experience is that planting seedings works best. On this pond, we planted a mix of seedings initially and then kept adding plants. The banks and bottom were hard-packed red and grey clay.

Awesome Rah! If I can have 20% of that result, I'll take it! Do you have any submerged vegetation, Other than the lilies?

Patience is the key, along with controlling what you do not want. For us, it was cattail and willows that tried to invade. I tried to get eel grass to grow several times with no luck. Our newer pond has volunteer curly-leaf pondweed starting, so we will need to see where that goes. If it gets out of control, I'll add some grass carp later. Right now it may provide cover for the FHM, RES, YP, GSH, and LCS. Later we will add SMB. So we do not have any submerged plants that we intended to get going, but some volunteers that have really not taken off. I think the lily cover helps with that.

Does all that vegetation do a good job of keeping the water clear?

This is a great example of why PondBoss is good for me. It helps open my eyes to other viewpoints and management strategies, especially those that appear contrary to my own ideas. Not that long ago, photos like those submitted by RAH and John Monroe would've instilled visions of me scurrying to hook up the bushhog, and prime the pump sprayer. Now, I understand some of what their objective is, and I appreciate the aesthetic quality and natural environment a little better.

Don't ever see myself deliberately adding vegetation, though. That's a barrier that would be nigh impossible for me to cross!

The vegetation does a pretty good job most of the time in keeping the water clarity at about a couple feet in terms of seeing fish. After a big rain, it gets muddy, and in the winter, the clarity sometimes gets to 6 feet or more. In spring, we sometimes have more algae than I like for a couple weeks. All in all, I am pretty pleased with it. I also understand that others like the look of a "city-park" pond, with turf right up to the pond's edges. Our ponds and wetlands are part of an ongoing large wildlife-habitat restoration project that goes back 25 years and still has a ways to go. We have no shortage of chores to do, so reducing mowing is a help. Its all what the individual wants. We do keep the lawn mowed around the house, and that is not very different from mowing around a pond from a philosophical point of view. We also keep paths mowed all over our land for walking and access.

Do you have a FA problem. I am hoping adding vegetation will suck up the extra nutrients and help control it.

My FA problems are very minimal, but not zero. I have never had a "bloom" that would warrant a treatment. Occasionally, we get algae blobs that must come up from the bottom, but they have always disappeared in less than 2 weeks (usually a couple days). Desirable plants can only help by using nutrients that would otherwise be available to undesirable plants. I am all about high-intensity production on our vegetable ground, I just take a more subtle approach on our wildlife and recreational ground.

Thanks Rah. All very encouraging info that I may be on the right track to achieve a few of my water quality goals. From an asthetic standpoint, I am hoping for something between your and Sparkie's points of view.

Do you mind pointing out what plants are in the picture? It's nice to see them in their natural habitat.

In the foreground is a swamp milkweed (pink flower). The purple flowers in the water are pickerelweed. Yellow and pink waterlilies can be seen on the water surface. The emergent thin leaved plants that look a bit like cattail are giant burreed. I think that the tall spikes are dark-green bullrush, but I planted several different species. There are also different sedges present. I think I see boneset as well.

Thank you!! Beautiful place you have there!

Thank you - we love it!

Thank you for that Sparkplug.
I probably put more pictures on Pond Boss then anyone for a different point of view on ponding.
For instance, the frog and the lily are all in the picture but what makes it special is the early morning sunlight ray comes through and highlighting the frog and the lily, so their are three things happening in this view I see in my natural pond. This is a beautiful different way of looking at natural ponding.

These plants came today. These also look quite good. I just read today that water arum prefers shade so I am not hopeful they will survive/thrive. My pond is all full sun. If any body has any tips on planting any of the above, please let me know. I will be planting them tomorrow.

Good luck with the new plantings Bill. Looks like some great choices. It's always exciting starting a project like this that you will be able to enjoy for years.

Thanks! The experiment is on! Everything is planted. My thought is by planting so many species I will find the ones that thrive in my little puddle. My hope is to use marginals on the entire south half of the pond to control what little erosion occurs on that side. North half will be a much more aggressive approach with sediment ponds and rip rap filled swales as that is where the watershed water enters and erosion is a huge issue.

Ok wild bill it's time for pictures of all this before it grows up. Before and after...

Hey Pat,

I took a "before" pic tonight from the deck. Hopefully, after the pond renovation and a summer of plants growing I can put it together with an impressive "after" pic I will post this fall.

Puddle getting a facelift? How big you going with it?

My biggest issue has been animals eating or pulling up plants. Geese and deer are the worst. I now put honeylocust branches around and over the plants, which works good for me. You just need to take care handling them. By the time they rot away, the plants are established enough to take the damage.

Pat,

Final size will be dependent on how many places I can find to put the dirt removed.



Rah,

Thanks for the tip. I will try to get out today and see what I can do.

Bill D.

Bill, I'm trying to remember.. Is your pond new? Is it full? I. In the waiting mode still on plantings, because I still need 3+ feet of water to reach full pool. I don't want to start planting until I'm a little closer to full. We've had a whopping 1.5" of rain in the last few weeks, not really helping.
Looking forward to seeing the pictures.
Jeff

Hey Jeff,

My pond was dug fall of 2013. It is a water table pond and filled in 48 hours. My water level fluctuates about 3 feet over the year, based on a sample of one year (last year). I have a well and can adjust the level but it leaks pretty good trying to hold a level above the water table. I am close to what is "normal" pool right now so this is the level I planted the plants. When we get a 2 inch rain the level will come up 18 to 24 inches but only stay there a couple of weeks.

Bill D.

Thanks Bill,
I think I knew that, but wasn't sure. Senior moment.
I'm in a holding pattern.. Waiting for rain. Not patient.
Enjoying hearing about your plantings. Looking forward to the pics.
Hopefully I'll be planting some this fall, or next spring for sure.

Update....FWIW my experience has been that there is more to planting bareroot marginals than just sticking them in the bottom and walking away. Wave action, wind, curious critters, etc and before you know it you have a few floaters and then a few more and then a few more...Everyday I walk the pond and fish out 3 or 4 floaters and replant. During replant, I have been placing a few small rocks around the base of the plant and have had no repeat offenders yet.

Update....FHM are spawning on the bottom of the new lily leaves

Update.... I thought the Dwarf Sagittaria I planted several weeks ago had all died. The leaves had all died off a couple weeks after planting. I am happy to report new growth is now coming from the buried roots.

5 inches of rain. All the plants I planted are 2 feet underwater. Guess we will see if they survive.

We may have the same thing coming here during the next couple of days.

I have been told that Kesters is a good place to get aquatics.
My question (remember I'm not a pond owner yet, still working on getting there, so this is more for my planning) Have any of you planted strictly for or with the intention of attracting waterfowl? If so, what did you plant/recommend? I am hoping to have a series of ponds, with the last being a waterfowl impoundment, it will not be very deep and level will be controllable for annual plantings. I very much look forward to input on this. I met someone recently that has trained his dog to run off any waterfowl that lands on his pond (2.5 acre), was wondering if this is common or just him?

My thoughts are to plant widgeon grass, duck potato and celery. All input is appreciated.

Thanks
Doug

One or two back issues of Pond Boss magazine have dealt with this topic.
Jul-Aug 2014. NATIVE PLANTS FOR WATERFOWL. VanSchaik reviews the food value of 24 types of plants as food value for waterfowl.

Nov-Dec 2012. PONDS, ECOSYSTEMS AND WILDLIFE. VanSchaik covers how to promote wildlife above the waterline in habitats of upland, riparian and wetlands. Discusses food plots their size and planted species chum feed, connecting travel routes, and best vegetation.

Jul-Aug 2007. PLAN FOR FALL WATERFOWL NOW. VanSchaik explores fish ponds that can attract waterfowl. Various waterfowl defined, intense management discussed, included is staggered planting dates, native vs cultivated plants, nutritional value of native plants and importance ratings of 25 native plant groups.

Bill,

Thank you very much, time to order some back issues!
I appreciate you identifying these for me.

Doug

Quick update

The lily and duck potato plants seem to have survived and thrived with the approximately 3 feet fluctution in pond level of my water table pond. No sign of the other species but I have not given up hope...yet. Lesson learned there I think is don't plant marginals at the waterline when at low pool in a water table pond.

A couple of pics of the survivors.

Don't give up. Weather just is. Sometimes you have to keep trying each year. I know from experience.

Keep an eye on the lily. They can quickly become lillies.

Yeah I have a small bay area I would love to have some lily pads in but scared to death I would lose my entire bay to them!

RC - Buy the lily varieties that are labeled dwarf, miniature, or small spread. Examples: Indiana, Burgandy Princess, Liou, Perry's Baby Red. Very slow to spread out even in shallow water.
http://texaswaterlilies.com/Hardywaterliliesorderpage.html
With these you will probably want them to spread faster. Then buy medium or larger varieties.

wow ok cool thanks Bill I was afraid to get any cause I have a lot of shallow area around my pond and don't want to be over ran!!

thanks,
RC

RC, I have some 3 yo Colorado Lilies, so I'll try to take some pics today. Very slow spreader, and they handled both 2 separate ice overs, and 90+ water temps this year without a burp. Nice looking plant also.

You can easily control hardy hybrid water lilies with glysophate based herbicides. If you choose the slow spreaders you will likely never have to implement control methods. Buying the correct size and spread of dwarf, small, medium or large is the key component to the best water lily management.

for reference the Colorado Lily is a medium-large spread lily. If it is spreading slowly for Firelshot, that is an indication of how the smaller varieties will perform. RC try some and report back for others that are interested in how the hybrid lilies grow.

Here's a pic of the 3 yo plant, and it's a little less than 11' across. Second pic is of the same type plant purchased this spring. It's about 3' across, and it stays in the original pot until next year. I'm leery of hitchhikers, so if there's another plant, I can remove it before I physically plant the lilies.



The third pic is some unknown lilie that has done extremely well here in annual drought conditions. Rush, American pondweed, and these lilies are what I'm trying to cultivate these days.

Al, did you get yours from the guys in Bill's link above? Joe Snow didn't have any a year or so back but he may have now.

No, I got the Colorado's at Creative Water Gardens in Garland. They're right down the street from our city house.

After thought: Bill's advice is perfect as usual. I'll add that most aquatic plant places can have some very invasive plants for sale. I've actually seen Pennywart available. I asked the girl if she knew how invasive it was, and she said yes. I then asked her if she wanted an acre of it, and she said no. So just because they have it for sale, doesn't mean it's a viable option for a pond.

Any lilies that get out of control can be a real long term headache. Slow growing smaller hybrids sure seem like the best option.

FWIW I planted Sulphurea as they were less expensive than most and advertisied as:

"....plants are very tough and hardy, which makes them perfect lilies for beginners. Prolific bloomers. Will spread 4-6 feet, bloom from mid-summer to early fall and grow in zones 4-11."

I was looking to see if lilies could survive my huge water level fluctuations. So far they are living up to the advertisement

I bought a place this year that has a 1/4 - 1/3 ac pond that could be close to 30 yr old. It is stocked with a nice variety of fish, but is almost devoid of submerged vegetation. I planted a couople dozen gorilla grass (wild celery) plants in early Oct., but even if these live, I need much more of something. Several varieties of mud plantain look potentially usefull for the pond margin and not a threat to become invasive, but I've been unalbe to find other submerged plants that are easily managed, available, suitable for SW MO, and maybe even easily established. I wonder if there are any desirable pond plants that can be propagated from seed. I would welcome any suggestions about plants I should consider or sources I should try.

Welcome to PondBoss. Your pond's description here and in the fly fishing thread you posted sounds like it's going to be a really fulfilling addition to your life!
My pond would be ringed with cattails and hardstem bulrush if I didn't attack portions of the shoreline each year. This is not a monumental task for me as the pond is only 1/4 acre. It gets me out on the banks of my pond, playing in the mud.
I've added a few plant species here and there with mixed results. I chose 3 species of iris as showcase plants. Already the water's edge in most places without the4 cattails/bulrush has a mat of a short rush species that I haven't identified. It stabilizes the bank and needs no mowing.
I bought some sago pondweed and some arrowleaf duck potato from Kester's Nursery 6 years ago. They have not survived the crawfish and grass carp.
Elodea moved in on its own; it's a total pain, choking the pond each summer giving me the task of mechanical removal. Actually, I don't mind dragging weeds, as I get to pull up all sorts of critters tangled in the Elodea-crawfish, sunfish and bass fry, many species of insects. Hopefully next year I'll start to see some grass shrimp.
Good luck, and keep us informed. Thanks in advanced for your posts.

I am puzzled about why my pond has essentially no vegetation. I've pulled in only one water weed while fishing, and I've drug many lures and flies across the bottom. It was one of the several kinds of common water weeds (Potamogeton or Najas), and it was in bad shape. I put it in an aquarium to see if it would grow a new leaf or two so that I could identify it better, but it died. I wonder if someone put weed killer or grass carp in the pond. In either case, I may have wasted my time and money planting the gorilla grass.

FWIW Our 1/4 acre pond, prolly 25 years old, had NO vegetation for the first 2 years of our ownership-2009 and 2010. In 2011 we started seeing a short grass like growth, about 3" long, in 2 to 5 feet of water. Then in 2012 and since, Elodea runs rampant.
There were many many crawfish in the pond initially, even with LMB, YP, and 2 big (30") GC. Plants I introduced fared poorly. Terrestrial weeds were absent around the property, in flower beds and in walkways.
Soon, the Aquacide catalogs began arriving, addressed to the former owner. A partial jug of long acting glyphosate was also left behind.
I don't think I'll ever know for sure, but I'm guessing the former owners used plenty of herbicides in the pond and on the ground. A small garden bed which still mysteriously doesn't grow stuff like other ground had a suffering grapevine in it. Grapes are hard to kill around here. Even with "hospitalization", the grape died.
Crawfish and the GC could be responsible for the absence of vegetation in the pond, but all of it? I don't think so.
Anyway, given time and heavy irrigation, I believe the soil is recovering; we now grow excellent tomatoes, chilies, taters, corn, cukes, and others.

BLM doesn't allow the use of glyphosate (Roundup) on the land it manages. That's one thing I think it does right.

Say what? Why whould you say that BLM does not allow glyphosate? It is one of the most environmentally benign herbicides available.

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/b...onRateTable.pdf

That's for a single case in one field office. The document describes the conditions of its use. It's not a blanket okay for all of BLM. When I worked in BLM's Great Divide Resource Area in WY, it wasn't allowed. It appears that it's still used only on a case by case basis after a study of the potential impact and the need.

I've been aware of the many concerns about Roundup since the time I worked for BLM, and I've read various things on the subject in the interim. To my mind, there's plenty of reason for concern, and I choose not to use the stuff. But it's still one of the most widely used (probably the most widely used) herbicides, so it's obvious many people don't agree with my take on the subject.
http://roundupcompensation.com/
http://earthopensource.org/gmomythsandtr...easier-farmers/
http://robbwolf.com/2015/05/06/glyphosate-benign-or-dangerous/
http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Roundup-Glyphosate-Factsheet-Cox.htm
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/glyphogen.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Actives/glyphosa.htm

When I look at internet links the first thing I do is go the .edu or .gov sites. I went to the one link that you list that fits this category and it seems accurate. These types of sites cannot just write anything. Folks have many concerns that have no evidence to support them.

http://www.ufocasebook.com/alienabductions.html

As a scientist, I go with evidence over popular concerns.

Come now. How can one compare the supposed danger of glyphosate to the very real possibility of alien abduction? I've said it before and I'll say it again, when the science experiment that is planet Earth comes to an end, there's going to be a lot of very surprised looks on faces.

You know how we manipulate the environment in order to raise our fish? Yeah well, that same technique works on a much grander scale also..

Alien abductions are a lot harder to disprove:) Supposed dangers of glyphosate can be tested in scientific experiments. Folks have been trying pretty hard for over 40 years to demonstrate the "dangers" of glyphosate with out much luck, but who knows what will pop up tomorrow?

I like hearing you say that. I think there are many who are content in believing today's knowledge is the ultimate and final word on a subject. I try to always keep an open mind and continue to question.

In another thread, there is a discussion about High PH in ponds which I find a very interesting subject and I've been digging into it some. One thing I’m finding in my reading is that, although submerged pond vegetation increases DO, it is reducing CO2 at the same time which will result in an upward swing in PH; with the amount of the upswing dependent on several factors. My pond has High PH (8.3 to 8.4) already and very high alkalinity (250-300). I don't want to go from an "ok" PH situation to one with unacceptably high spikes in the afternoons just because I planted/allowed vegetation.

My questions:

1) Does emergent and/or marginal vegetation increase DO and reduce CO2 to the same degree as submerged?
2) I’ve been planning to try and get some submerged vegetation started for habitat and nutrient control. Is this a good idea, bad idea or “it depends” for my situation?”
3) Should I focus on emergent and marginal vegetation instead of submerged?

Any insight anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated!

Bill D.

With high alkalinity - total hardness there is a high buffering capacity to resist 'swings' of pH. pH will swing up and down depending on sunshine (pH up); night (pH down). At night plants produce CO2 which converts to an acid (carbonic acid) to lower pH. In sunshine carbonic acid is converted to carbonates pH goes up. The amount of buffering and plant activity determines how much the shift will be. Significant shifts of pH are not a concern in your pond chemistry. With your hardness, I doubt very much you will ever see a pH decrease to 7.0 in your pond due to even abundant submerged plant growth. In low alkalinity water expect greater shifts of pH.

Thanks Bill. I will move forward with the plan, HOPEFULLY, get the desirable vegetation in place before the bad boys show up and takeover!

PSA...Aliens have recently been reported to be hanging around elevator shafts.

No worries Bob. I've seen the same reports. I suspect it's just Sparkie in his infamous fishing garb!

Bill, I have the opposite problem: low alkalinity (37 last I checked) and low pH (around 6, even with lime on the bottom).

My pond is new with little or no plant life. Would water plants help me with the alkalinity/pH?