Roughly two months and counting before we start moving dirt for the pond. I want to create a 20x30 foot area for bluegill spawning and was wondering what is the best way to do this and what materials to use?

Bluegills will spawn in shallow sandy bottom areas, from 1' to 3' depth. From what I've seen, they seem to prefer a sand/dirt mix rather than pure clean sand. I've never seen them spawn in gravel, but I don't have much experience with ponds/lakes that are rocky or have a lot of gravel. The country around here is mostly sand and river bottom muck.

I made a couple of flat bottom bays in the pond and the bluegills dug their nests around the shore (3:1 slope) rather than use the flat area that I made for them. It might be because the area is under a little more than 3' of water.

I need to take some pics of the pond today and I'll see if I can get some of their beds.

Look at these pics for some ideas. I will find the prior thread on this latter.

O.K., I retract my comment about them not spawning on gravel!

My plan is to create a 20'x30 flat in about 3' of water (full pool). I also plan on placing a tarp or landscape fabric over the area to hold the material in place and not let it sink away over time. The big question is what material should I put on top of the fabric? pea gravel? sand? mixture there of, something else?

Looking like gravel may be the way to go.

Neat project but I'm wondering why you want to mess with it. I have never found a way to keep BG from spawning, no matter what the bottom strata.

DD1 I think the point is to have a better spawning area. This will lessen energy loss of bluegill trying to get to hardpan, etc. Also increase egg/fry survivial, thus creating more bluegill. Otherwise yes they will find a way to spawn but lets help em a bit we say.

lassig, we line an area with cinder blocks. If not the gravel tends to get pushed out of the way. The deeper edge might go two cinder blocks high. Ewest says research indicates pea gravel to half dollar size is preferred. Pictures show that as well. The gravel cost adds up so extra cost in blocks helps save investment. I like the idea of fabric as well so does nto bury in muck area.

Here is one prior thread on gravel for BG beds. 8 - 32 mm is optimum as per this source for BG beds.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7630&fpart=1

Here is another one on BG spawning.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...ite_id=1#import

Thanks for the links ewest, But the second one gets off the topic from spawning areas to repeat spawning in a season?? And it kinda seemed like the first link didnt have much helpful information it kinda jumped around. Anyone got direct expierence with this type a stuff.? I really have no need to know genetics of paternity analysis, although interesting not really what im looking for, im just a dumb fisherman that wants to catch more fish so i want to grow more lol.. What i got from all the reading is dont waste my time with making a bedding area maybe just a shovel of pea gravel in already existing beds?

There is a ton of info on BG beds here. Do a search. I provided some. The pics in this thread came from previous threads and tell the story. The threads mentioned tell what and why to use gravel. They also tell how to do so. Please ask your question.

Here is one small part.

BG nest site selection article in the new In-Fisherman issue by SDSU student Quinton Phelps and our own Professor Dave Willis.

In this lake every BG nest site had a substrata of small gravel despite the availability of sand , rock and muck at other locations. No other habitat characteristic seemed to be a critical factor that influenced in nest location. It is good to know that this forum was on top of this 14 mths prior to In-Fisherman. Cutting edge !! - right .

Here is more

Role of Male Parental Care in Survival of
Larval Bluegills
MARK B. BAIN AND LOUIS A. HELFRICH
Department of Fisheries and Wildlife Science•
Virginia Polytechinc Institute and State U niversity
Blacksburg, Virginia 24061

Abstract
Mortality of larval bluegills Lepomis macrochirus from predation was measured in 56 nests
guarded by males and 21 nests from which the male guard was removed. Mortality was s ignificantly greater in unguarded nests(median= 68%)than in guardian nests (median= 14%).Fish
traps placed in unguarded nests captured significantly more predators than traps placed in
guarded nests. Bluegills( 3-12 cm total length)w ere the most abundant nest predators Pumpkinseed Lepomis gibbosus (7• -11 cm),largemouth bass M icropterus salmoides(4- 5 cm),and whitefin
shiners Notropis niveus(5 -6 cm) also were nest predators. Nest preparation by male bluegills
exposed coarse gravel( 8-32 mm diameter)and pebbles(3 2-64 mm) in nest substrate and removed particles smaller than 2 mm. Particles larger than 8 mm provided suitable interstitial
space to accommodate bluegill larvae. Survival of larvae was directly correlated with the proportion
of coarse substrate in the nest.


Some points of interest:

Our data from
Virginia implicated juvenile bluegills as the major
predators on bluegill larvae, followed in importance
by pumpkinseed. Dominey (1981)
drew the same conclusions from a New York....


In addition to direct protection afforded larval
bluegills by nest-guarding males, nest preparation
by the male parent influenced survival
of larvae in Lake Caroline. The availability of
suitable nesting substrate has been recognized
as a major factor affecting reproductive success
of centrarchid fishes (Breder 1936; Kramer and
Smith 1962; Muncy et al. 1979).

In laboratory observationss,
coarse particles provided suitable interstitial
space to accommodate yolk-sac bluegill larvae.
That coarse substrate may function as protective
shelter for larvae was supported by field
data: ....


Although
other factors undoubtedly influence
mortality of tested larvae, our data suggest that
predation, particularly intraspecific predation
(cannibalism), can be a major cause of early
bluegill mortality.

And more

New to this forum, but let me put my 2 cents in. Have been placing gravel to enhance spawning for warmwater fish, mostly Bream/Bass for 25 years and this is what I have observed: A. Bream prefer gravel as a spawning substrate. Why gravel?? Gravel allows for water to circulate throughout the egg mass as the guardian male fans the nest. This in turn carries the oxygen necessary for the survival of the individual eggs. Better circulation = better hatch from each nest = better fisheries dynamics. Washed pea gravel is probably best, but also the most expensive. Washed river rock #57 grade is also good and less costly. Washed rounded rock allows for better circulation. Sand, "white" rock, lime rock all tend to "lock up" and restrict the circulation of water/oxygen to the bottom of the egg mass necessary for egg survival in that part of the egg mass.
B. Thickness of the layer of spawning gravel will thin or "pancake" out after several years and eventually becomes useless. The mechanical action of fanning the beds makes the gravel migrate out over time. Counter this by boxing in the gravel with 1x12 inch cypress boards, filling in the outside of the boards with dirt. Looks like a shaved off pitcher's mound with gravel recessed in the ground. Dirt shoulders keep the hooks from snagging as easily.
C. Avoid sloping ground, level sites have the greatest use.
D. Dispurse the sites according to depth and aspect to allow for greater overall use throughout the spawning season.
E. Avoid locating sites adjacent to incoming streams, or tribs, they end up being silted in.
Just my 2 cents, hope this helps.FS.

And more

Gravel based spawning beds may ultimately be somewhat better than other substrates because gravel (coarser particles) results in a higher percentage of swim-up fry. The fish don't realize this but they probably instinctively know this.

All from just one of those links. http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7630&fpart=1

Lassig, do you still have as your primary goal growing trophy bluegill? If so, I would echo what Dave said, which is that you don't need to create any beds; if you tried to stop the bluegill from spawning you'd be hard-pressed to short of shooting the males one by one with a .22 rifle as they were about to fertilize the eggs. I've never seen a pond that had bluegill in which they didn't spawn successfully, usually without any help at all.

If your goal was trophy bass it would make sense to maximize their spawning success because doing so would lead to more forage for the bass. But if you want to grow the largest bluegill possible, your foremost priority, the most important thing you can do by far, is keeping the bluegill numbers low so the ones that live have more food - just as you would regularly thin out the bass numbers, and aggressively so, if you wanted trophy bass, so you should do everything possible to minimize small bluegill numbers. In a pond that's properly managed this way it's not uncommon for the bluegill to average close to a pound apiece - I've done this more than once, without the benefit of automatic feeders (which I never had a chance to employ until this year).

Fisheries biologists who have studied Lake Ketona in Alabama, which produced the world-record bluegill (T.S. Hudson, 1950) at four pounds twelve ounces, concluded that one of the prime factors in the exceptional growth rate of the bluegill in the lake (the second-biggest on record also came from Ketona, 4 lbs. 10 oz.) was the steep banks that provide the bluegill with very limited spawning areas. The lake also has a large population of small bass, which of course was cited by the biologists as another key factor as the bass eat most of the bluegill at the fry and fingerling stage such that the few that survive have all the food they want, and grow at an unheard-of rate.

Bluegill will spawn on mud, gravel, whatever is available; they prefer gravel substrate; but you don't want to give them what they prefer if you're looking to grow two-pound bluegill. Some bluegill enthusiasts go so far as to stock nothing but male bluegill in a pond, to eliminate spawning altogether. That's probably the surest route to a two-pounder, but the goal is still achievable with a spawning population. But the more you help them spawn, the more you let them do their natural prolific thing, the smaller your bluegill are going to be, automatic feeders or not.

See the prior post and referenced study.

Our data from
Virginia implicated juvenile bluegills as the major
predators on bluegill larvae, followed in importance
by pumpkinseed. Dominey (1981)
drew the same conclusions from a New York....

Bluegills( 3-12 cm total length)w ere the most abundant nest predators Pumpkinseed Lepomis gibbosus (7• -11 cm),largemouth bass M icropterus salmoides(4- 5 cm),and whitefin
shiners Notropis niveus(5 -6 cm) also were nest predators.


LMB are also a predator of yoy BG but not in anywhere near the number.

The process works like this : BG spawn and most of the eggs to swim-up + sized fry are eaten by small BG (1-4.5 inches) which in turn are eaten by the many small LMB which in turn are eaten by the few large LMB.

sorry ewest this was suppose to be on my thread sorry for the mix up thanks for ur responses

Large bluegills are still my plan, it just maybe delayed a year. My pond still appears to have a leak in it, I am taking measurements daily (time lapse camera taking a picture of a depth stick) and graphing them to so if there is a pattern. I haven't been to the farm since 12/29 so I haven't seen how much of the 12/24 and 12/25 rain event has leaked out. OK back to taking about bluegills, I didn't due the spawning area as discussed above and I don't plan on adding based on the conversations here and other readings I have done.

Very good post on lake ketona. That's interesting I think I will leave my bluegills spawning habits alone

Strange how my bluegill seem to find the best parts of the pond to spawn or make nests in. The depth seems irrelevant, anywhere from a foot to 5 foot deep. They don't like moving water, and avoid silt and soft areas. Mainly they just look for gravel or small rocks and push or fan out all of the sediment. The Red Ears look to deeper nests. The bluegills anywhere and the Green Sunfish are normally shallow. I do get some hybrids but not many. The photos are great, as they will side by side with no problem at all.

I will draw down my pond four or 5 feet to get to the lowest nests. I'll go to the spot where I find the most and just make new ones, exactly like the old ones. A slight depression and some gravel, pea gravel or smaller rocks. When I comeback every single nest has a male on it. I think they like the gravel as water movement oxengates the eggs keeps the eggs from sinking and dying in the silt or mud. I don't really create spawning areas, because I have no idea where they want them, I just add a lot more nests after I find out where they like to be.

Potential spawning pans to hold spawning substrate (gravel or sand mixture for us rednecks):

http://www.homedepot.com/p/24-in-Plastic-Water-Heater-Drain-Pan-15021/204834496

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Plasgad-Medium-Mixing-Tub-887101A/202086173

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Plasgad-Black-Large-Concrete-Mixing-Tub-887102C/205451585

My favorite BG spawning pic

I've been reading a lot of these old posts this winter. So was the consensus that, while BG will nest in mud, gravel, etc., nests in small gravel provide the best survivability of the fry?

I think so. There was also some discussion about not wanting too good of a spawn if your primary goal is to raise big BG. The idea being less fry equal less problem with over population and stunting.

I look at that way of thinking a little differently. BG are going to spawn no matter what. Yes, reducing the spawning area might reduce the spawn, but a lot of early growth of BG is dependent on newly hatched fry.

My way of thinking is this:

You are going to have reproduction, so why not try and benefit from the best quality reproduction? My understanding is that the biggest baddest males will stake out the most prime spawning territory. Then the smaller and younger males will fan out around these dominant males.

So to my thinking, put good conditions for spawning for your very best males. Are they not the ones we want to carry their genes on to the next generations? So set out a half dozen gravel beds in a persons best guess (which is only a guess until it is seen where the BG prefer) at the very best spawning sites. Let the biggest males take over these prime spots and reproduce a large number of the desired genetics. Then let the rest of the males use mud.

I'm no expert. Just what would seem a logical way to try and promote the best genetics propagation. According to the studies ewest has posted, the fringe nests get a lot more predation than the nest in the center of the spawning beds. Let the best males have the best conditions to spawn in.

Of course if it is LMB feed a person wants, the more overall spawn the better for forage production.

Edit: I was going to post the tubs in the more recent thread on spawning but could not find it right off hand. Found this one and decided it was good enough to bump back up to the top anyway so posted it here. Getting that time of year again for the southerners and spring will be just around the corner for everyone, so I know this topic will come up again.

That makes sense to me as well. Next time I'm at a big box I'll pick up a few bags of gravel and some pans. I know where some of my BG's favorite nesting spots are. It will be interesting to see if the big boys go for the pans.

Best BG males use the nests in the middle of the colony absent other matters/issues.

Just a idea here but, my grandpa put old semi tires from his shop in his pond for his cat fish but the ones close to the banks the BG LOVED!! It made a perfect pre made nest for them and they still use them to this day. Plan on doing it in my pond staggered set of 5 or so and put a sand gravel mix inside of them. Have them in about 2 ft of water. Hope this give you some more ideas. Would hold your material and I'm sure if you go to a tire shop you could get the old ones for free!

Great thought Dinsmore... I don't have access to semi tires but I bet i could round up a pile of used car tires or trailer tires. They might be free rather than cutting up plastic food barrels.

I wonder how deep to sink them in the ground and how large of gravel to fill them with?

The pictures above suggest you could put them very close together too.

If you use tires consider using old brick, broken concrete, or large crushed limestone as filler in the tire walls and across the bottom. Then add pea gravel-coarse sand mix to the top 5"-6". Maybe initially add a couple tires filled with a couple different sizes of gravel, crushed stone, or sand. Observe which is preferred and then add remaining tires. LMB would use tractor tires with gravel as a nesting area.

Tires will have a tendency to float up if not securely sunk.

there not on the rim ewest lol. due to semi tires have so much steel belt from having to take a lot of road use, long as you don't trap air in the sides they sink on there own, they have been in the same spot he have thrown them in at for over 20 years. He didn't fill them with any thing the BG just found them and dished it out even deeper, I figured sand and gravel would make it more appealing to them.

Yes I know. If you have water depth swings (drought/flood) like many here they can get air in them and float up. Been there myself and with steel belted tires and bricks. Air will get in and flow to the lightest weighted side and float that side up. Any current will then move it around. We fixed by torching holes in the sidewall to let air escape.

Torching a few holes in the side wall of each tire to keep them on the bottom is a very good idea.

man this is getting to be a hot topic lol! cant wait to see what every one else comes up with

I made a shelf in my pond when it was renovated for BG spawning. Sand bottom pond. They turned up their nose at it and made nests on the complete opposite side of the pond.

The more I do this, the more I realize that I have to listen to the fish, they won't listen to me.

If you aren't a fan of filling your lungs with rubber smoke, a hole saw and cordless drill will ensure your tires stay on the bottom.

I've never made spawning areas, just let nature figure it out for herself. Seems to work okay.

There is a excellent article about the topic of BG nest choices by our friends at SDSU in a prior Cutting Edge Report.

Here is a part of the report - guys if you don't subscribe to Pond Boss mag you should !!!

A new article titled Factors associated with bluegill nest site selection within a shallow, natural lake by Kristopher J. Stahr , Mark A. Kaemingk & David W. Willis in Journal of Freshwater Ecology, 2013 , DOI:10.1080/02705060.2012.755647 gives a good overview of factors effecting the nest selection process or the habitat requirements needed for bluegill in their early life stages.

Another study addresses substrate composition importance. In Role of Male Parental Care in Survival of Larval Bluegills by Mark B. Bain and Louis A. Helfrich in Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 112: 47-52, 1983 the authors noted optimum Bluegill nest materials were exposed coarse gravel ( 8-32 mm diameter) and pebbles (32-64 mm) in nest substrate and that Bluegill removed particles smaller than 2 mm. Particles larger than 8 mm provided suitable interstitial space to accommodate bluegill larvae. Survival of larvae was directly correlated with the proportion of coarse substrate in the nest.

Of interest were their findings about predation. Predation on larval bluegills was inhibited by
nest-guarding male bluegills. The data implicated juvenile bluegills as the major
predators on bluegill larvae, followed in importance by pumpkinseed. Bluegill (3-12 cm total length) were the most abundant nest predators. Pumpkinseed (7 -11 cm), largemouth bass (4- 5 cm), and whitefin shiners (5-6 cm) also were nest predators.


The first study noted above provided that its results and previous studies suggest that three primary habitat variables may play a pivotal role in nest site selection for bluegills: suitable nesting substrate, reduced levels of submersed plants, and protection from wind and waves. However, some habitat variables may be more or less influential depending on lake characteristics and geographic location.


In that study the authors found suitable spawning substrate throughout West Long Lake and all
nests were located along the south shoreline (wind and wave protection) whereas other studies found nest sites along multiple shorelines in areas with gravel and hard bottom
substrate, which were not found throughout the lake. Therefore, bluegills in that lake appeared to select sites primarily based on substrate with less influence from wind and wave protection. Alternatively, bluegill nesting substrate was similar throughout West Long Lake, and contained lots of sand which allowed bluegill to nest in areas that provided the most protection from wind and waves.



My research identifies the following as factors which pond managers can manipulate to aid or reduce Bluegill nesting success: substrate composition, submersed plants and woody cover, wind and wave action and siltation. We can add optimum sized gravel to nests, locate nests in places with the least wind and wave action , remove or add as needed plants and woody cover and avoid locations where silting could exist. Another idea is to leave large nesting male Bluegill alone during the spawn as removing them from guarding the nest even for short periods results in high predation on the fry/eggs. Give it some thought.


One additional note about this study is that it was performed by our own Pond Boss associated Fisheries Scientists doing what they do well – applied fisheries science - as noted in the quote below by Kris Stahr the primary author. He along with both other authors, Mark Kaemingk and Dave Willis are some of our SDSU connection.