Hello all! New to pond ownership. I live in Western NY and own a 1/2 acre pond that is fed from a large hill, my gutters, and many French drains. It is about 8-9ft deep at the deepest, so I was wondering if you think I could support holdover trout that will survive the summers and/or winters. I’d b happy to offer more information! Thanks![img]
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Welcome to Pond Boss!!!
Overwintering trout is dependent on your water temps in the summer, as well as probably water quality issues.
Go ahead and post any details you want, and we'll see what we get back.
If you don't get enough responses in this category, maybe move to one of the more general, high traffic categories.
Hello all! New to pond ownership. I live in Western NY and own a 1/2 acre pond that is fed from a large hill, my gutters, and many French drains. It is about 8-9ft deep at the deepest, so I was wondering if you think I could support holdover trout that will survive the summers and/or winters. I’d b happy to offer more information! Thanks!
Although I am no expert on trout or trout ponds, I may have some knowledge of your situation. I am located about 30 miles East of you and have a pond that is dedicated to trout. Our pond is slightly less than one acre, located at an elevation of 1900 feet, about 15' deep at its deepest point and fed primarily by rain and snow melt. We have been struggling with trout for about 30 years. Originally our trout did well with no aeration and within a year or two of stocking we were regularly catching fish approaching five pounds. At that time, we were not aware of any summer or winters losses. In the past 10 to 20 years the situation has changed and we have been having trouble with fish kills during the hot summer months. We have been forced to stock annually to assure that there are trout in the pond. The fish may last a couple of years but usually a hot summer will wipe them out and you have to start over.
Unless you have a constant source of cool high quality water to keep your pond cool and oxygenated or are able to keep the water temperature below 70 degrees at your deepest point you may be pushing it. If I could do anything to improve my pond, it would be to make it deeper.
Thank you so much for the reply! This is great information that I cannot find anywhere! My pond is only 9ft deep at the deepest, and I dye it to keep it dark. I guess what I can do this year is stock with trout, and assess what next summer does to the population. I’d hate to keep restocking but I LOVE trout...
I have .5 acres and 9ft depth at the deepest. Open field with all the water that I know of coming from runoff. If I could post a pic I would!
I've got a two acre pond in Southern NH about 15' deep it's spring and groundwater fed. We've got predominantly rainbows but some browns and brookies too. The key to getting trout to survive is a constant source of cool, oxygenated water. If you don't have that source then chances are they won't survive the summer. Even if the water is warm but Well oxygenated they can survive as long as you leave them alone in the warm water. But you never know - I've seen trout survive some how in some real mud holes.
I suppose I will take temps this summer at the top and bottom of the water column, and see what they typically are. I will then stock a few this fall and see how they fair this summer. Any ideas as to any easy methods to maintain temps? I just love the idea of trout MORE than LMB and BG...
You could have a well dug and constantly have that cold ground water pumped in. That's easier said then done though.
Oooof. Yeah, that doesn’t sound all that inexpensive either!
A pond with 0.5 ac of water will require a pretty large inflow of well water to keep trout alive during the hot July August temperatures in 9 ft of water. It is much more feasable to do the well water trout in a 0.1 ac pond which can raise big trout as regularly practiced for brook, rainbow, brown and tiger trout by emeritus forum member Cecil Baird. If I was better at posting pictures here I would show you some of Cecil's current huge trout pictures all raised in 0.1 ac.
Brookie 6 lbs; Brown trout
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=180049Rainbow 9 lbs 9 oz, Brown 12 lbs
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=283273&page=1Some of Cecil's brook trout
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=426249#Post426249Suggested above was "..... or are able to keep the water temperature below 70 degrees at your deepest point". It is not just a matter of keeping the water below 70F but this water has to have dissolved oxygen above 5 parts per million (ppm, mg/L) at 70F. IN a fairly deep pond it can be relatively easy without bottom aeration to keep the bottom water below 70F; it is maintaining the 5ppm DO that is the BIG problem. The deep stratified pond water almost always wants to loose significant amounts of DO when the pond creates the upper warm and deep cold layer. The shallower the pond the more this is true.
Try trout this summer and monitor their success. When they stop feeding at the surface in just 9 ft of water they are highly stressed and close to death.
If you stock quality trout at 9"-12" as soon as the water drops to 65F in Sept or early Oct and feed them high quality pellets from the trout supplier you should be able grow them to 18 to 22" and 2.5 to 3.7 maybe 4 lbs the next June. I would aerate the water near shore during ice cover and continue to feed the trout in the open water on nice winter days. This will maintain their body weight and probably put on a little growth on them during months of ice cover.
Keep us advised as to your progress in this thread about raising your trout so others can learn from your experiences.
Thanks! I took my depth finder out today and found that the majority of the pond will be about 7.5-9ft and the walls are somewhat steep drops. I have a high level of wind whipping across the pond and lots of water coming in from ground water and drainage. Not sure if that helps or not? I appreciate your responses, and I love this group/forum! I’ve never been a member of one before!
This is a very good, in fact excellent forum for pond management and growing sportfish. Since your NY pond receives "high wind" this will tend to mix warm surface water deeper into your shallow pond thus killing your trout which will usually happen in late June, July, August. In exceptionally cool summers you could get some trout to survive in those years, but this would be the exception not a common occurrence. If you are really a die hard trout lover and trout are relatively low cost compared to other similar sized sport fish, you can feasibly stock trout each year and grow them to very respectable, fun catching and eating sizes as I noted in my post above.
You did not mention what other fish you have in this pond. They could help or hinder the quality of your recreational put and take trout population. What is the average month to month clarity of the water in your pond? Also how are you managing the filamentous string algae (FA) in the pond. BE VERY careful when dealing chemically to manage the FA problems. Trout are extremely sensitive to copper based algaecides.
Like mentioned, if you absolutely need to have trout there's nothing wrong with stocking them in the fall - you can fish for them through the fall winter and then spring. If you know for a fact that they won't survive the summer them begin harvesting them in the spring. If you feed them through the fall and then through the spring you'd be surprised how much growth you'll get. If your pond has a good forage base they should grow quite a bit under the ice during the winter. You could also run an aerator in a shallow area during the winter to keep some water open so you can feed them through the winter.
All in all it's your pond and your choice. If you want trout then do trout. If you're really worried about survival I'd try browns. While they can be quite "anti social" and tough to catch they do have the highest tolerance for warm water/low dissolved oxygen levels. Rainbows would be next. I don't think I'd try brookies unless you get other trout to survive then maybe I'd try some. If you can get them around you tiger trout might be a good bet as well. Just my two cents.
Thanks all! I only have small perch, fatheads, salamanders, frogs and insect life in now. I will stock with crayfish, and will control vegetation with Tripoloid grass carp. Clarity is exceptional in the water almost always, and I also use wildlife-safe dye to darken the water and “color” it a but. I am not opposed to having different fish, but I am exceptionally fond of trout, and I feel I will eventually turn to having a bass and BG pond if I can’t get ANY holdover browns or bows... You guys all rock! Thanks!
If you are not having good success with trout then before adding BG and LMbass stock smallmouth bass. They will co-exist long term much better with your current forage base especially the perch. SMB with YP are a very enjoyable fishery. Only add BG and LMB as a very last resort because one they are in you will never get them out.
I agree. I'd try SMB before LMB. If you think trout are fun on a fly rod then smallmouths will blow your socks off!
IMO the hybrid trout like Splake and Tiger Trout are more durable than "regular" trout. How do I know?? Fall 2018 I stocked Brookies and Splake. I failed to keep a hole open all winter and DO got very low. The following spring only the Splake were left. Maybe it has something to do with hybrid vigor. If it were me I would try Tigers and/or Splake.
I like the idea of stocking tigers but dont think i have access to any
. Thanks for reminding me about smallies! You think they’ll do okay with my pond depth and parameters? Thanks all! This forum has been a godsend!
Smallies are pretty tolerant. Ideally they'll need a lot of gravel and rocks for successful spawning as well as habitat for their favorite forage - crayfish. You could stock small rainbow trout to supplement their diet too... Man if you did that you'd have some huge smallies!
I've had smallies (SMB) reproduce in an 7 ft deep hard clay bottom pond. So gravel and rocks are not a necessity but good habitat helps a lot for creating a thriving SMB fishery. Habitat also helps a lot to allow adequate forage food to thrive in the pond. SMB will survive year after year a lot better in your pond compared to trout. Use yellow perch and or pumpkinseed sunfish with maybe golden shiners & crayfish as main larger forage food items for SMB.
I like these ideas. I have mostly stone and sand/clay bottom in my pond and can always add gravel too. Perch are the primary fish in the pond (only actually that I know of) currently, and I will supplement them with fatheads occasionally as well.
Just to get back on the trout topic...
You can still stock trout even if they don't survive the summer. I think it was already mentioned that by stocking larger 12+" trout in the fall and feeding them until ice up and then again on the spring you'll end up with some nice trout to harvest. I use Aquamax 600 for my trout and have great growth rates.
Even if you go the smallmouth route you can still add some large trout for some added fun.
FlyFishingTr - Please periodically return to keep us updated as to the progress of your pond project. A few pictures now and then would be good to see the results of your efforts. Don't be a stranger.
Anyone have luck with Smallmouth and perch in the same pond? I will stock crayfish and FHM as well. I plan to also stock a few bigger trout for some fun in fall too. Thoughts?
SMB and YP in the same pond is a very good naturally occurring combination. Ideally there should be adequate cover and habitat to allow a native forage fish and diverse invertebrate community to all co-exist. LMB are not as compatible with YP as they are with bluegill(BG). LMB almost always decimate the YP after several years.
The main thing I've learned from frequent use of this combination is to not allow the SMB to over populate and over eat the perch population. Plus, note the perch in a weedy pond can easily become too abundant and need to be manually reduced accordingly. As with any reproducing fish community it is important to manage it and maintain a numbers balance of predators and prey to achieve ones goals of either skewed towards big perch or large bass or a balanced mixture of both sport fishes.
As with any reproducing fish community it is important to manage it and maintain a numbers balance of predators and prey to achieve ones goals of either skewed towards big perch or large bass or a balanced mixture of both sport fishes.
I consider this to contain much wisdom.
There is an inverse relationship between predator and prey. When prey are abundant, prey are smaller and the predators grow larger. When predators are abundant, predators are smaller and prey are less abundant and grow larger. This is a much better representation of balance than perceiving balance to be both predator and prey to be relatively large. One should make a choice because trying to have both is a conundrum that can only occur early in a ponds life.
I would add that maintaining balance is often difficult. Maintaining balance in a fishery is often referred to in Fisheries Science studies and literature as like balancing on a knife edge. The normal state is unbalanced one direction or the other.
This is an incredible conversation of great wisdom! I was considering making some shelter for the forage fish as well as the SMB for the deeper sections of the pond for over winter. Anyone have experience?
Achieving a complete or theoretical fish numbers balance is rarely achievable for very long because of constant fish deaths, mortality, reproduction, and fry survival. However if no fish are removed then the out of balance condition often becomes skewed toward an over abundance of one species which are often small and slow growing. This most often is the case in smaller ponds what have limited habitat diversity. Often fish have shorter life spans when they are over crowded.
Based on ones goals for the fishery then this idea helps guide the manager to which fish to remove at what times to improve the quality of the fishery. Occasionally a good balance of fish numbers and sizes is achieved naturally especially in larger water bodies with diverse habitat that provides refuge and ample foods for diverse species. Removal of the proper numbers and sizes of fish is usually better than no harvest or management unless there are no goals for the fishery. Too much harvest can be as negative as no harvest. If having just any size of fish in the pond is okay then it is okay to let nature determine the "balance". Even natural lakes become out of balance such as some northern lakes that have lots of "hammer handle" northern pike or stunted yellow perch as two examples.
I was considering making some shelter for the forage fish as well as the SMB for the deeper sections of the pond for over winter.
I have always believed that using structure in the bottom of a pond for shelter of the larger fish is not necessary. However the deep water structure will serve as fish attractors to congregate fish for anglers, but I doubt it serves as a type of shelter as is often used by land animals and humans.
Adding dense cover in shallow shoreline water for forage fish is beneficial during all seasons. Studies have proven that the most beneficial cover for forage fish is when 20%-30% the total shoreline contains the dense cover. Forage fish especially the smallest ones rarely use deep structure because this is where the predators usually frequent so small fish quickly learn from hatching that the safest place is the shallowest water where commonly dense cover occurs.
When I shovel snow from pond ice, I commonly see numerous minnows when disturbed quickly move from the shallowest water into deeper water. This taught me that minnows even in winter are usually inhabiting the shallowest water, commonly not deeper sections where the predators are frequently present.
I would add that maintaining balance is often difficult. Maintaining balance in a fishery is often referred to in Fisheries Science studies and literature as like balancing on a knife edge. The normal state is unbalanced one direction or the other.
There is more than one way to look at balance, I suppose. If Fisheries Science, I guess it means that growth of predator and prey are uninhibited. But I don't see balance this way and I can't think of any biologist other than a fisheries biologist that would. If we view it from an ecosystem perspective, then it becomes clear that there exists a natural balance between predator and prey that is most stable for the ecosystem and its environmental factors. It is about this balance that the pendulum swings so to speak. We can view this as semi-circle that looks like a smile. The opposing effects of predator and prey move in trends about the balance but imbalance is generally reversed by events that turn the system towards natural balance again. Eventually, after successive generations, community members adapt and the swings become more muted and the balance more stable. To achieve stability, the ecosystem generally must support predator reproduction.
If it doesn't support predator reproduction, then the semicircle is upside down and eventually there is nothing but prey and no balance is achieved.
Fisheries Management is, at least regarding small impoundments, trying to work out way to avoid the natural balance achieved when predators become more numerous. This is indeed a powerful trend in small impoundments that takes a great deal of effort to overcome.
Would it make sense then to make an effort to better the successful reproduction of forage fish, as well as successful holdover and growth into adult size, while harvesting/removing smaller predators? This would allow the smaller number of predators to grow larger even I assume.
Yes, but not entirely. The brooding prey fish generally don't have a predator in systems balanced on only one predator. This ensures that they can breed to perpetuate their kind. These too large for the predators to eat prey fish are essential but if they comprise too much of the standing weight of prey fish the production of vulnerable prey is limited by the numbers of adult prey fish. The limit arises from a number of factors. One is competition with parents, another is predation by parents, still another is the impact of a large standing weight of prey fish on the production of their prey organisms. Fewer parents and efficient cropping of their young by the predator allows the numbers of these organisms to be greater and their reproduction to be greater. In other words, removing some but not too many large prey brooders has effects that cascade through the food chain and these effects benefit every organism whether it be predator, remaining prey fish, or the organisms the prey eat.
So what this means is that a balanced harvest includes the removal of both prey fish and predator fish. So what is the ideal number for each? It depends on ones goals I suppose. IMHO the best balance is best achieved when there is a good representation of year class in both predator and prey populations. This requires consistent annual harvest. The bigger one wants to grow them, the more years it takes and so efficiency declines. The most efficient harvest is one that equals the production limit of the BOW. So a Bow in spring with 250 lbs of fish that could produce a net production of prey and predator weight of 80 lbs could be harvested at a rate of 80 lbs/acre. A good number to work with is 25 percent of the weight in predators and 75 percent of the weight in too big for predators to eat prey fish. In the example above this equates to 60 lbs/acre for prey and 20 lbs/acre for predators. Essentially such a scenario turns most of the population every 4 years or so. Generally, the predators won't be really big over such a short span of time. For LMB probably in the 15" range in the 4th year IF they are harvested and not allowed to accumulate.