It's 8 1/2" long. There are both Redear and Pumpkinseed Sunfish in this BOW.

Thoughts??

Beautiful fish whatever it is

I'm thinking Pumpkinseed.

I'm impressed that Redear flourish that far north.

Yep, I'm with Steve, I say it's a trophy PS and I'm going to start a hybridization project one of these days BGPS and PRES if I can source some PS.

I'm going to say with the amount of research I've been doing, Dat Dar is PURE PS and I'll need it alive for verification. If you could provide a few more to go with it, I'm sure I could properly ID them bad boys...

Native range is "South of the Wabash", RES live well through introduction up into Michigan's LP.

Thanks guys! Snipe, did you call those guys I sent you the info on?

From my limited experience with PS I think it is a male PS. I've seen them 9" and the rare one at 10"; really exceptional sizes for PS. I've seen them most often in clear ponds with submerged weeds. The clear water no doubt allows them to better find invertebrates and snails.

PS - I don't see RES traits.

Yes, I left a message and haven't had a call back yet.. Not giving up easy on this. :-))

What Snipe said! I'm willing to help pay for the delivery of several of these beauties from Indiana to the Kansas PS ranch.

Looks like a PS to me. lots of those around this part of the country. I visited some friends camping at a campground a few years back. My buddy said to bring some fishing gear because a pond at the campground ( Eastern OH ) has very large BG. I took my ultra lite rod and some small jigs. I saw some blue gills and pumpkinseeds near the shore line spawning. I ended up catching a huge PS that was close to 10".
There were loads of shore line weeds at this BOW, which made fishing very tough. I need to talk to him to get some info on this pond. I'm curious to how/ why these sunfish are getting so big.

If I could get hold of pumkinseed sunfish, I would forgo crappie in my third pond and focus on these. Really pretty fish. 3rd pond only has FHM and lake chubsuckers so far (if the LCS survived the transplant from below the pipe coming out of my 2nd pond).

They ARE pretty fish!! A local lake has both PS and RES, I will be talking to the guy that caught that one to see if I can get some brood stock from that pond.....

Linked are images of hybrids I made in lab several years back. I took a mass of eggs from a single female pumpkinseed and divided it into several lots. Each lost was fertilized by a different male representing the following species; northern bluegill, green sunfish, redear, warmouth, central longear sunfish, western dollar sunfish, redspotted sunfish, and orangespotted sunfish. Each group was raised in aquaria well past sexual maturity to see what they look like and if they were fertile. I had at least 20 individuals per lot except from the warmouth cross to choose from.

Of particular interest to this thread was the redear hybrid. The redear hybrid had very little pattern compared to the others. I do not think pumpkinseed and redear are close relatives.

http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php/topic/5228-known-pumpkinseed-hybrids/?hl=hybrid

Jim I cant open the links. Would love to see and post them on PB.

FYI centrarchids relationship chart.



PS and RES are fairly closely related see chart (but not as close as once thought). Both have pharyngeal teeth/plates (eat snails). But who knows in genetics what traits will be dominate and show up.

From https://fishlab.ucdavis.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/397/2020/06/Near-et-al-2004.pdf

Investigating phylogenetic relationships of sunfishes and black
basses (Actinopterygii: Centrarchidae) using DNA sequences
from mitochondrial and nuclear genes
Thomas J. Near,* Daniel I. Bolnick, and Peter C. Wainwright
Center for Population Biology, One Shields Avenue, University of California, Davis, CA 95616, USA
Received 27 September 2003; revised 17 December 2003
Available online 28 February 2004



Third, L. microlophus and L. gibbosus are the only
Lepomis species with specialized diets, feeding primarily
on snails. Both species exhibit behavioral and morphological specializations that function in crushing snail
shells. The specializations include expanded tooth areas
on the upper and lower pharyngeal jaws, hypertrophied
pharyngeal jaw muscles, and a specialized muscle motor
pattern (Lauder, 1983, 1986; Wainwright and Lauder,
1992). Previous morphology-based phylogenetic hypotheses proposed L. microlophus and L. gibbosus as
sister species, indicating that these specializations for
molluscivory have had a single evolutionary origin
(Bailey, 1938; Mabee, 1993). However, both MP and
BML analyses {Both maximum parsimony (MP) and Bayesian maximum likelihood (BML) analyses were used to generate
phylogenetic hypotheses from the DNA sequence data} do not recover this relationship, but instead result in a set of strongly supported nodes with L.
gibbosus as the sister species to the clade (L. microlophus
(L. punctatus and L. miniatus)) (Figs. 1 and 3). L.
miniatus and L. punctatus are not molluscivores and do
not exhibit the specialized behavior or morphology observed in L. gibbosus and L. microlophus (Lauder, 1983,
1986). The result of this phylogenetic analysis indicates
that ecological diversification between generalist and
specialist strategies may have a higher frequency of
change in the course of the evolutionary history of
Lepomis than previously hypothesized.

That phylogeny is bull crap.I am familiar with it. System used not appropriate for phylogeny attempted.

I am not a geneticist and would welcome more info on your comment above.

The pharyngeal apparatus of the Redear and Pumpkinseed could easily be similar by convergence. Genetic markers employed are not best for deep time divergence. I feel more comfortable with such analysis run on populations with a younger genus. For intergeneric comparisons I think better to be a combination of multiple nuclear and mitochondrial DNA loci. The problem is that this has been the only analysis to date attempting the family Centrarchidae. It does cost money to do it.

The part that caught my eye initially involved the Bantam Sunfish, which I know probably as well as any author out there. They have it lumped closest to the Green Sunfish. I know that critter as well. When you look closely at the Bantam Sunfish, it looks a lot more like the Banded Sunfish in particular, which has a lot in common with the Bluespotted Sunfish and Blackbanded Sunfishes. The life history of those four species is also very similar. Breeding them in aquariums where they can exhibit natural behaviors helps set them all apart from the genus Lepomis in which the Green Sunfish resides. Bantams did not generate viable hybrids with any listed as Lepomis sp. I tried to cross with it follow procedure described in my first post. Green Sunfish produces viable hybrids with all the other Lepomis, except for the Bantam Sunfish.

Then you have the Warmouth. There is a major directional viability issue with crosses you make with it and members of the genus Lepomis. None of the other crosses within Lepomis cause that problem. Warmouth also have huge behavioral differences when it comes to courtship and behaviors otherwise when compared to other the other Lepomis spp.



Bantams I think should be in Enneacanthus and Warmouth should be either outside or basal to the genus Lepomis.


Then you do not want to get me going on the Bluegill clan.

All of these studies (many more listed in the one linked) make it clear that much is unknown and many initial thoughts are later learned to be erroneous. You are right in your thoughts that much more study needs to be done.

Jim:

I could not open the links to view the pictures since I am not a member.

Here are Jim's pics - Thanks Bill and Jim.



]

trying to post rest of pics

I had a triploid pumpkinseed x redear two that had to be generated by more than one pumpkinseed sperm getting into a redear egg. The individual looked much more like a pumpkinseed although it was a lot larger with a mouth little like a redear.

Jim, I was looking on the Missouri Conservation website and they showed Pumpkinseed as another name for the Longear so I would assume that they're saying they're the same thing. But I see your saying they're not. Can you tell me what the differences between the two are? I think I'd like a few of one of them or both. They're both pretty fish, and I can't tell the difference.

Different species

PS -- https://www.efish.fishwild.vt.edu/families/pumpkin.html

LES -- https://www.efish.fishwild.vt.edu/families/longearsun.html

Thanks, both pretty but looking at those pictures I think the Longear is prettier. I think it is the Longear that I've caught here and there over the years but could be both.

Bob, this is where we get into trouble with colloquial names. The name Pumpkinseed is used for multiple species here in the Missouri and it depends on who you are talking to. Most people in the majority of Missouri calling anything Pumpkinseed are referring to Central Longear Sunfish. Those living in the Boot Heel region of Missouri are referring to two species, the first is another low land form of Longear Sunfish (not same as Central Longerar) and the second is the Western Dollar Sunfish. The latter two are often sympatric and most folks do not distinguish between them even when in hand at same time. The fish called Pumpkinseed in the northern tier of states is the smaller mollusc eating critter with a red spot in opercular tab like the Redear has. There is also another Longear Sunfish (Northern Longear) that occurs in part of the Pumpkinseed's same general range and it often has a red spot on its opercular tab as well. I am not saying who is related to who in this mess. Their may have been some hybridization that helped these forms come into being.

Thanks Jim, growing up here in Missouri most people I knew just called everything perch or sunfish. Every now and then I would hear someone call them by their real name.

The better real names would be latin names. The other names are neither real or incorrect, especially when everyone is in agreement about what they are talking about.

Growing up everyone called L Megalotis by the colloquial pumpkinseed. I didn't know an different until I was an adult. This was especially my dad's doing. He had me calling any non-crappie panfish "perch" and Green Sunfish "rockbass" and Spotted bass "redeyes". Everything else I think we called by their broader colloquial.

I have fond memories of Longears. They are excellent flathead catfish bait and good to eat. They were common in creeks that tended to run in NE OK where I grew up. They are also common in the streams here in DFW. If they grew as big as BG, many a panfish pond would have them I think. They are aggressive and easy to catch. A picture of my personal best is posted on Pond Boss.

Thanks Jim - good info . No doubt that all these "sunfish/perch/bream/etc." get all mixed up both actually and figuratively. Thanks for the pics also.

jpsdad - nice fish - what did it look like to you ?

Eric, its a Longear that grew in a pond with few fish. For a little more context I stocked this LES male into the pond (the only LES) by throwing it above the dam from the adjacent pond below. It was only about 4.5 to 5" in length when I did that. For a time, that upper pond was a panfish paradise containing only male panfish (LES, BG, RES) from the pond below. At the time, the upper pond had a population of catfish and Gams) It took that fish 1 year to go from 5" to 7.5" and I did release him. I caught and released him again that season but that is the last I saw of him. The following year I couldn't catch any the BG that had been in there. I don't know if they just died or were caught by another fishermen. Also the following year BG of all flavors and LMB were brought into the pond by others and the grand experiment was kaput.

Is this close in appearance ?


https://www.efish.fishwild.vt.edu/families/hybrid.html

Here is a male BG that looks similar

Thanks Jim, I guess real name was the wrong term to use. lol! What I really meant was their individualize name, whether or not slang.

Eric,

Now I suppose it might have been a hybrid between a BG and a LES. But if so, then someone other than me put in the upper pond. I would mention that I have fished extensively in our area both ponds and streams and I have not yet caught a redbreast sunfish (though I do know they occur as an invasive further south of us here). Also I have never caught what has appeared, at least to me, to be a BGxLES hybrid. Of course the cross could occur but the fish I put in the pond was definitely an LES with standard local markings. I really do think I caught the same fish one year later. A bit more context, this fish was bedding and in full breeding color. There were also BG beds surrounding it and some of the these BG were larger than the LES. But this LES' bed, fanned out of bed of chara, spanned one and a half times those of the BG (some of these BG were between 9 and 10 inches in length). The fish had a lot of bright-blue throughout the length of its body and on the opercule which is apparent in the photo. I am certain this fish has Longear genes in it and think it is probably a pure LES also.

jpsdad - thanks - just trying to get as much info as possible to go with the slightly fuzzy pic. Same species can look very different from location to location -local adaptation is a powerful force for change. No opinion (suggestion) from me that it is/has any BG genes. I did notice 2 things - one it has prominent vertical bars (they are wide) and two some slight scale pattern/color across the nose like a CNBG.

I can't help but smile because, like you, I puzzled with the appearance myself when I caught it. The LES I stocked did not look like a smaller version of the fish in the photo (more on that in bit). Also I apologize for the poorly focused low resolution pic. I did not want it out of water long and as my daughter was holding it was spinning around. But if you look closely, except for the banding and a darkened patch along the lateral line, the fish was primarily orange ... even under the dorsal fin area. This is visible in the pic but the pic does a horrible job of depicting that fish. Nothing compared to the eye candy of being there.

Back to how different it looked when I caught it as compared to when it went in. The LES in this region are bright orange with blue interspersed. I haven't been able to find a pic online that demonstrates what I am looking at when I catch one, at least not a match. Some time later I will post a pic of one for reference (will be a while after I catch another). The LES here have a long thin bright bluish grey ear tab with a black and then a white margin as did the LES when I stocked it. So I was very puzzled because ear tab a year later was long and FAT and blackish blue. The margins weren't there and I was puzzled. But at the time I new the history of the pond and I thought the fish in it were stocked by me. Given I stocked only one LES, I felt confident it was the same fish (though I could be wrong). But this leaves the question, why so different in appearance? At the time I was able to view a pic of the world record LES and it too was dark and oddly shaped and colored. So I do wonder how this plays into maximum potential sizes and how this affects morphology. As an example, consider the fish you posted. At one time the fish you see in Bruce's hands once looked very much like it ...



I would mention that the banding does occur in other LES when spawning ... but that big fat ear tab ... why? So either it wasn't the same fish ... or ... something else is going on. Perhaps colors, markings, even shapes of ear tabs are not fixed but are plastic features that can be modulated. To be sure, I wondered if the appearance had something to do with this fish's competition. With no females present, was this natures way of mimicking his competition by presenting an ear tab that was bigger and blacker than the larger BG? I just don't know, perhaps it found its way into that pond by some other means than myself. Either way, it is a memory I won't soon forget.