Are there any reliable methods to determine the sex on RES outside of the spawn? Any tell-tell signs one way or another?
Steve I generally observe that females have more yellow/cream sides and bottom and are lighter than males, which are typically have more black checkering on the sides. Also the red margin on the opercular tab seems to be deeper, darker in color on males than females where it's lighter and maybe more light orange than dark red. Sexing younger fish out of spawning season for me personally is kinda a crap shoot.
Thanks TJ!
The reason I asked is that two of the five aquarium redears I have have started turning darker over the last week. Both are 18 months old and around 7-1/2".
Steve I generally observe that females have more yellow/cream sides and bottom and are lighter than males, which are typically have more black checkering on the sides. Also the red margin on the opercular tab seems to be deeper, darker in color on males than females where it's lighter and maybe more light orange than dark red. Sexing younger fish out of spawning season for me personally is kinda a crap shoot.
Bingo! Right on the money!
Steve I generally observe that females have more yellow/cream sides and bottom and are lighter than males, which are typically have more black checkering on the sides. Also the red margin on the opercular tab seems to be deeper, darker in color on males than females where it's lighter and maybe more light orange than dark red. Sexing younger fish out of spawning season for me personally is kinda a crap shoot.
Excellent post!
By the way, 7.5 inches at 18 months is outstanding! Nice work, young man.
I have serious difficulty applying this ID process in reality...
I think I will stock some verified males for the trophy male BG, female YP pond this Spring. I think 15-25 RES would perform very well and keep my snails managed - limited competition could yield some impressive growth.
BTW that's amazing on your RES success...congrats!
...and redears, of course, on the left.
Top left is the female RES
Thanks Eric!
I was really hoping for something like "scale tipping" or the lack of as a good indicator of sex. Three of my aquarium RES have yellow fin tinting underneath just like the picture in your signature. The other two have dark fin tinting like the male and female RES picture you posted, they are also noticably overall darker than the other three. I think I have two males and three females but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
To be honest with you, I've always had significant reservations about the above photo. The fish on the upper left that's designated as a female RES, looks nothing like the females I've ever seen. I've always regarded that fish as a male that simply isn't in full spawning regalia. The eartab looks very "male" to me.
Interesting, I wonder if the fin tinting underneath is indicative of sex in sexually mature RES? Females yellow, males black?
We need some definitive photos of before and after.....filleting that is.
Otherwise it all seems interpretative, without a known starting point.
Good point! To complicate matters I wonder if RES have the equivalent of "cucks" and "sneaks" like BG do?
Good point! To complicate matters I wonder if RES have the equivalent of "cucks" and "sneaks" like BG do?
Crap, hadn't thought of that...
I will put some RES under the knife next opportunity that I get, and post the definitive photos.
I'm going through my notes, but only found one photo with a positive female ID. I don't normally keep RES, but here's one where I did. Don't have any "after" photos as proof, but my records indicate the fish was filleted and verified. I will try for better photos, and before and after verification from now on. What do you think?
Female RES
Tony, does the yellow color of the female stay fairly consistent year round?
I think so Al. My records show this fish was taken the last week of Feb. 2012, so It may even be a little washed out in this photo. This fish was 10", so it was mature.
I'm going through my notes, but only found one photo with a positive female ID. I don't normally keep RES, but here's one where I did. Don't have any "after" photos as proof, but my records indicate the fish was filleted and verified. I will try for better photos, and before and after verification from now on. What do you think?
Dark but yellow tinted fins underneath, I would have guessed male if the the red on the ear tab had been a lot larger.
Shorty, what all do you see? When I study the photo, I'm drawn to the eartab's lack of projection onto the body, the narrow margin with what I would call an orange border, and the creamy light yellow area on the "belly". I always considered all three of those as female RES traits.
I do catch a fair number of BG x RES hybrids, but don't recall ever having taken any females in that regard. To me, this fish displays several RES markers, but I can't rule out any BG influence in there somewhere. But, unless I'm way off on deciphering my notes, this was a female.
This a red ear electroshocked up at our place this last Spring. Male?
This a red ear electroshocked up at our place this last Spring. Male?
Definitely a male.
I dropped off a 12 inch mounted female a couple of weeks ago at a bait & tackle store, which is one of my taxidermy pick up drop off points. Anyway there was a gentleman there that saw it and commented that the ear tab wasn't red enough. I had to tell him it was a female and the ear tabs on the females are more subdued than the males.
Al that is a superb RES! And I would call it male also.
Tony thanks, but I have to admit I'm clueless about red ears. IIRC, I had a 85/15 CNBG/RES order at least 8 years ago. I was surprised to see so many because I've never caught them. I'm doing something wrong.
I'm going through my notes, but only found one photo with a positive female ID. I don't normally keep RES, but here's one where I did. Don't have any "after" photos as proof, but my records indicate the fish was filleted and verified. I will try for better photos, and before and after verification from now on. What do you think?
Female RES
I went to sleep thinking about this photo, and woke up still dwelling on it. It's listed as a female RES in my notes, but it just doesn't look right.
There's surely some BG in there.
Body shape, coloring? Just looking at the pics, it seems like the confirmed adult RES backs drop straight down behind the dorsal fin, which makes the tail look longer than a BG. Bear with me on this, I'm taking baby steps.
I'm going through my notes, but only found one photo with a positive female ID. I don't normally keep RES, but here's one where I did. Don't have any "after" photos as proof, but my records indicate the fish was filleted and verified. I will try for better photos, and before and after verification from now on. What do you think?
Female RES
I went to sleep thinking about this photo, and woke up still dwelling on it. It's listed as a female RES in my notes, but it just doesn't look right.
There's surely some BG in there.
Those were my thoughts too Tony. I see a few natural hybrids from time to time on a few local lakes.
My goodness, Al!!! That fish is gorgeous!
....and definitely a male.
Thanks Bruce. I wish I could take credit for it, but I never gave that 15% of the old stocking much thought.
I'll research the archives and get a better grip on them. Get ready for stupid questions. I guess despite the fact that I've had them for years, I'm a day-oner.
Nice examples. Can't argue with either assessment.
You've got me wondering about my photo all over again, Shorty.
I think these are two females and one male.
I agree with that too, Steve.
Tony - I agree f RES - but see where you might suspect some faint BG genetics now that I look again.
Al - great RES - well done.
To be honest with you, I've always had significant reservations about the above photo. The fish on the upper left that's designated as a female RES, looks nothing like the females I've ever seen. I've always regarded that fish as a male that simply isn't in full spawning regalia. The eartab looks very "male" to me.
I don't because those fish were picked and examined by Greg -- he should know based on an actual exam.
Good point! To complicate matters I wonder if RES have the equivalent of "cucks" and "sneaks" like BG do?
I don't think so based on spawning methods - but you never know for sure. Very little written on RES spawning and life style.
I think these are two females and one male.
Agree !
I'm going through my notes, but only found one photo with a positive female ID. I don't normally keep RES, but here's one where I did. Don't have any "after" photos as proof, but my records indicate the fish was filleted and verified. I will try for better photos, and before and after verification from now on. What do you think?
Female RES
I went to sleep thinking about this photo, and woke up still dwelling on it. It's listed as a female RES in my notes, but it just doesn't look right.
There's surely some BG in there.
I think there are some BG genes in this fish. See pectoral fin shape and length.
Thanks Eric. My pond has been covered in weeds and clear as a bath tub the last 2 years. It's starting to make sense now.
To be honest with you, I've always had significant reservations about the above photo. The fish on the upper left that's designated as a female RES, looks nothing like the females I've ever seen. I've always regarded that fish as a male that simply isn't in full spawning regalia. The eartab looks very "male" to me.
I don't because those fish were picked and examined by Greg -- he should know based on an actual exam.
Good enough for me!
Good point! To complicate matters I wonder if RES have the equivalent of "cucks" and "sneaks" like BG do?
I don't think so based on spawning methods - but you never know for sure.
Very little written on RES spawning and life style. Very true.
Very little written on the spawning and lifestyle is quite true, and especially interesting given the fact that RES have the potential to grow at least 50% bigger than standard bluegill.
I think oftentimes RES are not utilized to their full potential. It's common to hear of RES being stocked in a new pond, along with BG, as forage insurance. Or to help control, or head off, a possible parasite problem. And that's sound strategy on both counts.
But in both of those instances the RES are utilized in a supporting fashion, rather than a lead role. As Bruce stated, RES have the potential to grow larger than BG, they fight very hard on appropriate tackle, and they tend not to overpopulate and stunt....in addition to the whole snail/parasite thing.
Sounds pretty good to me. I'd nail a star on their dressing room door.
I'd nail a star on their dressing room door.
Same here!! I get the fact that they lack the fecundity of a bluegill, and also struggle a little further north, but MAN...3 pounds is three pounds.
Female, right?
I would consider that a female.
And a nice one at that!
Female, right?
Looks female to me, a nice one too!
Yes and a very nice one as well. One thing I see often is that larger female RES have more of an orange dot on the ear tab while the males have a larger ear tab margin which is red. That does not rise to the level of a male/female established morphological trait but seems to be a hint.
Notes say spring of this year, no sex listed. Has a pretty well defined border on the opercular, looks orangeish, also appears swollen in vent area....female?
One from not too long ago...border appears more reddish to me?
Those both look female to me, but not certain.
The thing about this thread that's bugging me is that I think maybe there's even more genetic variation with RES than there is BG. The more I learn, the less I know.
Female, right?
I think you look like a guy Bruce. Why would anyone thing you are effeminant?
I agree Bruce. No list of male/female traits or even any good written study data on RES. There is some but not much. Carlander (1977) text has some which I use.
Gotta get my 2 cents in.
At the aquarian in Chattanooga, all RES have washed out color. Seems I've seen RES in a BassPro aquarian and it was pale and without out enough color to readily idenify it. Staffer said they lacked color from the commercial food vs a wild diet. Not sure how credible the guy was. Also, that part of the aquarian didn't get sunlight.
Female at 6".
Blackbirds get their brillant red wings once bugs reappear in the springtime.
Now to brag on my 'El Gordo' a RES I kept for 18month in a 150 gal rubbermaid. He arrived just short of 4" from an outfit named 'Jonah's Aquariams.' Don't know if they're still around. He grew to weight over a lb. (only quick weighed him to avoid stress) and 11 inches.
Please, somebody research RES as the leading and sole predator of a pond! I've wanted a RES pond for years but have had rock and financial setbacks.
1) RES grows larger than Bluegill,
2) RES & BG food niche overlaps,(?growth rate w/out BG)(*inferred from Sm Impoundment Mgt)
3) RES are much less prone to overpopulate,
4) a RES only pond eliminates an inefficient layer of predatorship*
*Inefficient of you consider harvested pounds.
Outstanding if you only have a minipond. The lack of a top (LargeMouth Bass) predator should make the pond 5X's more productive. How about the RES being a keen substitute for crappie in small ponds? (I'll get that pond someday, may have to buy $5000 rubber liner.)
Both the female( who died at 6 months) and male had brillant orange/red flap; the female not as bright but as bright as 1 of the pics we're talking about being male.
Gotta get my 2 cents in.
At the aquarium in Chattanooga, all RES have washed out color. Seems I've seen RES in a BassPro aquarium and it was pale and without out enough color to readily idenify it. Staffer said they lacked color from the commercial food vs a wild diet. Not sure how credible the guy was. Also, that part of the aquarium didn't get sunlight.
The five RES I have in my aquarium also have washed out colors when my aquarium light is on, they are much darker and more colorful when the aquarium light has been turned off. They also show a very strong preference for hanging out in the darkest available part of my aquarium. Right now I have 3 out 4 of my aquarium lights shut off and have only been keeping one end of the tank lit up.
My working hypothesis is that RES have extremely light sensitive eyesite, more like walleye, which is why they get a washed out appearence under very normal lighting conditions. I also believe it is the primary reason they do not pellet train easily and why they hang out in deep water during the day.
There is an interesting USGS fact sheet on RES for native locations and such. They just describe the interaction with PS, ending in favor of the RES.
http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=390I have been looking to see if they will live in the Albany NY area. Looks like they can live quite a bit farther north than here, so I think they should be good. Now to find a source for them.
One should exercise caution when reading complied data like that. It is good to read but often lacks context. See below from the data sheet.
No records (for RES) exist for New York (Whittier and Hartel 1997).
... the Susquehanna and Allegheny drainages in New York (Hocutt et al. 1986
Conflicting data at least and I don't see any natural locations north of you on the map. The great lake shown part of which is north of you was probably included because of some RES reported from the south end of of it. Large lakes like that can have good cold water refuge at depth so I would not extrapolate that to a pond. Never say never though and it might work. Cold water stress may lead to poor growth and condition even if they survive.
I agree to take caution with the aggregate data. Specifically, I was speaking to the reports in VT which had 3 recorded locations (2 in 1991 and 1 in 1997). Although the one location in 1991 didn't have any found in 1997.
Point taken on the cold water stress.
They are very interesting fish and might be worth a try...
Shorty the 4 small RES we had in an aquarium (grandkids have them now and taking care of them till release time next spring in their newly renovated pond) sure did not like the light. Turn it on and they would immediately go into the covered refuge we provided. If the light was left on they eventually would venture out some but still spent a lot more time under cover than when the light was off. We left the light off most of the time for this reason. The BG and FHM didn't seem to do much when the lights came on but the RES went straight for the caves.
I've studied RES as much as possible, and have quite a bit of hands-on experience, and my working theory is that a redear sunfish can live quite a ways north, as long as there is good oxygen content in the entire water column. Well-oxygenated water near the bottom of a frozen pond or lake is near 39 degrees, and this seems to be within the tolerance of RES, as long as there is not ice for very extensive periods of time. RES that live under the ice where there is poor water quality, will be forced from the warmer depths into better oxygenated upper tier waters because of decaying organic matter, but then encounter colder and colder conditions as they near the ice/water interface. This increases the stress levels on an already stressed animal.
Bruce, there is a public lake near here that has RES in it, and has had them for as long as I can remember. That lake has had ice on it from mid November until late March before. Average depth is 10'-12' with the deepest part being 30'. Muck bottom, lots of weeds.
Are you implying that the water is poor quality? Weeds on the bottom can actually be very beneficial for redears. The light penetration must get to the bottom for rooted vegetation to exist, and the consequence would be good oxygen for the redears to utilize in the warmer, 39 degree water. The only problem would be if the vegetation starves of light and rots during the coldest months.
I wouldn't say poor quality, nutrient rich for sure. Lake is 100+ years old.
The typical (well, what is typical anymore?) winter would see weeds dying out due to lack of sunlight from snow cover.
The lake is fed by underground springs and 3 creeks.
Typically the cycle is:
EWM and CLP really starts growing in the early Spring, the CLP grows to the surface in up to 10' of water, EWM to surface in 6'- 8' of water. Boating and some private herbacide applications allows a bloom to get a foothold, and it snowballs, usually dropping the visibility to 18" or less during the summer. Boating activity dies back in the Fall, phytoplankton too, and the vascular plants start growing before ice on. The 3 most prevalent "plants" in the lake are EWM, CLP and Chara. 2012 saw a lakewide low dose Fluridone treatment for EWM and CLP. The remainder of 2012 and 2013 saw very little vascular plant growth, but an even denser algae bloom (but no FA, maybe due to boat traffic?). Lake also has Pumpkinseeds in it. I have caught 10" RES in there. Minimal to no snail population, there are crayfish, freshwater clams and mussels. Common Carp stir the bottom during spawning time, and there are also yellow and black bullheads in the lake that nobody fishes for. No catfish that I know of. LMB, BG, YP, BCP, RES, PS, and a few NP. Years ago the NP did well, but now their spawning habitat is minimal.
Bucket stocking has resulted in GSH, GSD, and just recently WB. WE and BC were stocked years ago, but couldn't sustain a viable reproducing population.
Last DNR fish population survey showed GSH make up slightly more than 60% of the fish biomass.
I'll let you know how they do when I stock them in the Spring.
Never mind. Stocking has been denied by the state. Last legal stocking was 25 years ago.
Good reason why there is no records listed.
I took the following picture.
The top fish was a confirmed male (milting).
The bottom fish was a confirmed female (heavily gravid).
I would by no means be certain that your fish are females.
Shorty, I'm amazed at how morphologically similar your fish are to standard bluegill. They don't have that downturned, snail-eatin' mouth that I usually catch.
They have had no snails in their diet since I pulled them out of the pond last year on Memorial Day weekend. They were 3" when I got them and they have had a mixed diet of bloodworms, pellets, night crawlers, and more recently fathead minnows.
I love those markings on the fish you posted Bruce. Our redears in the natural lakes around me are very bland in comparison.
I think RES are one of the hardest sunfish species to reliably sex.
I think RES are one of the hardest sunfish species to reliably sex.
I really agree with this.
Cecil, those fish were caught in Nebraska's clearest water.
I think RES are one of the hardest sunfish species to reliably sex.
I didn't want to hear that!
Cecil, those fish were caught in Nebraska's clearest water.
The natural lakes we have them in are quite clear also.
Cecil I'm doing something similar with the M BG F YP pond - will try my best to add 25-50 M RES this Spring/Summer. I'm only confident on ID if I get them on the beds and confirm milt.
Cecil I'm doing something similar with the M BG F YP pond - will try my best to add 25-50 M RES this Spring/Summer. I'm only confident on ID if I get them on the beds and confirm milt.
The bigger super bright red ear tabs vs. the subtle orange ear tabs isn't good enough to differentiate a male from a female?
Cecil I'm doing something similar with the M BG F YP pond - will try my best to add 25-50 M RES this Spring/Summer. I'm only confident on ID if I get them on the beds and confirm milt.
The the bigger super bright red ear tabs vs. the subtle orange ear tabs isn't good enough to differentiate a male from a female?
Cecil as a general rule of thumb I would say so, but in my opinion it is not foolproof. Sunfish, redears included, can display a wide range of colors, even the same fish can look quite different based on lighting conditions or water clarity. Coloration on both female and male RES can darken up quite a bit when they stressed or agitated and colors can wash out under bright light conditions. Somedays I think I have three male RES and two females in my aquarium, other days I think I have four males and one female.
When guys like Steve, who works with RES daily, convey their iffy confidence level on ID it makes me pretty suspect of my limited abilities to ID unless they are in full spawning mode. If I make one mistake the fishery will be impacted in a way I don't intend - so I'm going to be as certain as possible. I'll probably be fishing pretty hard for a week or two for RES on beds selecting males. Steve I'm looking for 25-50 verified males - if you have access to any I'm happy to pay or trade for them.
Of course it gets me to thinking...while the YP ID should be pretty simple for my caged fish, I am worried about how foolproof my BG selection was last Fall. I TRIPLE checked 100 fish and even got Bruce's help - but again, one mistake and my project is doomed!
Of course it gets me to thinking...while the YP ID should be pretty simple for my caged fish, I am worried about how foolproof my BG selection was last Fall. I TRIPLE checked 100 fish and even got Bruce's help - but again, one mistake and my project is doomed!
I hear ya teehjaeh57! Especially have you go to all the trouble draining the pond and moving fish like I did! I've done that twice now with 1 million gallons. Ain't doing it again!
Cecil - I can't even drain/seine this pond, if I screw up I will have to pump it out and somehow collect the fish when the water is super low. Would be a disaster.
When Bruce told me he verified some female BG with black scale tipping my stomach dropped. I've used that as a verification characteristic for many years now...again, I'm just holding my breath on my BG ID. I'll know for sure by this Summer!
Cecil, what traits did you use as a guide? I use opercular tab size, coloration, and black scale tipping. Am I missing anything?
I placed what I thought were 10 all male RES into my pond. One was not... 90% is pretty good accuracy, but not good enough. Fortunately, I wasn't that upset about the mistake. So far I have stocked over 3 dozen all male BG into the pond and 16 all male GSF. The big question will be if the RES female will only spawn with the male RES or look for some love from the BG or GSF. There will also be male and female RBS in the pond as of this spring.
Travis - I have a friend doing a cool water species fishery [SMB, YP, WE, HSB, GSH] and I've convinced him to try RBS as companion panfish along with RES based upon your recommendations. I'm pretty excited and wanted to credit you with the project idea.
Now...can you help me source these critters?
Cecil - I can't even drain/seine this pond, if I screw up I will have to pump it out and somehow collect the fish when the water is super low. Would be a disaster.
When Bruce told me he verified some female BG with black scale tipping my stomach dropped. I've used that as a verification characteristic for many years now...again, I'm just holding my breath on my BG ID. I'll know for sure by this Summer!
Cecil, what traits did you use as a guide? I use opercular tab size, coloration, and black scale tipping. Am I missing anything?
That's what I use but I also believe the sexually mature adults of the two sexes have a different body side profile and the female bar pattern is more intricate. According to the text I recently posted on the yellow perch sexing thread, post number 369564, one of the authors said the females have a swollen scaleless area around the urogenital area vs. scaled on the male. It said it was 100 percent. I haven't verified that yet but wonder if it wasn't referring to a spawning female.
Yes, I guess I noticed the bar pattern on female BG is more pronounced, or intricate as you refer to it.
Steve I'm looking for 25-50 verified males - if you have access to any I'm happy to pay or trade for them.
Of the 110 original RES that I stocked in my pond I have caught a total of one them on hook and line over the last two years.
Travis - I have a friend doing a cool water species fishery [SMB, YP, WE, HSB, GSH] and I've convinced him to try RBS as companion panfish along with RES based upon your recommendations. I'm pretty excited and wanted to credit you with the project idea.
Now...can you help me source these critters?
Greg Grimes can probably source them for you. Owen & William Hatchery in GA has 1-2" color morph ones available this fall.
They will package and overnight fish with no issues.
I also think female esp if it was caught during spawning season.
Bill, maybe it's just me, but does the fish in the last picture seem to have an extra large mouth to you? Maybe a hint of a GSF?
Both pictures are of the same fish that I caught late this morning. RES do have larger mouths than BG.
Many studies state the high degree of incorrect id of fish species and sex by fisheries scientists based solely on outward physical features. RES are no exception. That RES looks like some Bruce had pics of and don't look like mine - see below.
A few of the male RES in my aquarium looked a lot like the pictures I posted, it wasn't apparent until the days started getting longer this spring and they sexually matured that they were male. The only clue was the larger red/orange area on the ear tab which became more red as they matured. Based on the size of the ear tab, the thicker orange margin, this one might be an immature male.
Here is a picture of the other side.
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153/Squidge_04/185_zpsb1d6865d.jpg
I still believe RES are one of the hardest sunfish species to accurate sex.
I still believe RES are one of the hardest sunfish species to accurate sex.
My vote for a difficult fish in the sunfish family goes to LMB/SMB. I don't have any first hand knowledge of Spotted Bass.
At this point in my fish education and experience with RES, I would not try to sex RES outside of the main spawning period - way too risky.
At this point in my fish education and experience with RES, I would not try to sex RES outside of the main spawning period - way too risky.
I agree Bill.
I will say that the width of the orange/red margin on the the ear tab might be the best indicator of sex even with immature fish. Wide colored margins male, very thin margins female. The only problem using this is that you may occasionally get a male with a thinner than average colored margin, and female with a wider than average margin, or even individuals that fall in between the two.
I started this thread in order to try and sex the five RES I overwintered earlier this year and the width of the colored margin on the ear tab ended up being more accurate than going by any other visible trait.
I will take more pictures of the fish I catch and try and remember to include pictures of the vent as well.
Nice work Shorty. Looking forward to more pics and info.
Alright, I might have figured out how to catch RES in my pond, these are all from this afternoon.
Fish picture from the side, then picture of the vent.
#2
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153/Squidge_04/741_zps941cf1a1.jpghttp://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153/Squidge_04/742_zpsbe09fbcf.jpgDefinately a "Tweener", but I am leaning towards female.
Okay you now do know how to catch RES. Put it in a article and send it to Lusk.
The key word is "might" have...
Would close ups of the vent help tell if these are male or female?
Look at the color variation. RES on the left.
...and redears, of course, on the left.
Top left is the female RES
Other than the bright yellow bellies or creamy colored bellies, I don't see a lot of color variation in my RES. The reduced water clarity in my pond this years is not helping. I was hoping we might be able to discern sex from the vents.
From the archives on sexing BG.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c105/ewest1/BGsexingchart.jpghttp://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c105/ewest1/BG3sexing.jpg
Wow! Nice Shorty.
Maybe the season???? Up till Saturday I had caught a grand total of 4 RES, not counting a couple of 2" ones caught in a cast net. Saturday evening about an hour and a half before sundown cast out a small plastic jig to catch some more 4-5" BG to put in the old pond (the one with the GSF). Did decent on the BG catching about 20 from 3"-8.
But the surprising catches were 4 RES. Biggest 9 1/4 and smallest about 6. Only took a picture of one of them, pictured below. Other picture is the type jig I was using. Caught everything in the shallow area of the pond that had gravel bottom designed for spawning. Had been so dry and water low this summer the area was covered with FA, but recent rains raised water level and was able to fish it. The BG seem to love to hang out in this area with large numbers there when I feed around the shore line. Cast the jig out and retrieved just fast enough to keep it out of the FA on the bottom but not so fast to bring it to the surface, trying to keep it a foot or two under water. My assumption is they were in this shallow area (most of it 2-5' deep) feeding on snails and critters amongst the FA. I didn't think they liked artificial lures all that much, but all 8 that I have caught have been on artificial of different types. Any time I actually tried fishing for RES, never caught any.
Female?
Description: 6.5" RES
Description: type lure all 4 were caught on
Snrub, looks female to me based on the eartab.
I caught 8 RES on a similar lure shallow yesterday 18" below a bobber that I would move, let sit, then move again. Prior to yesterday my total count for the year was 8 RES total out of my pond caught by hook & line.
Anyone else notice that the size of the red/orange margins in RES vary from one side to the other? One side is usually larger and more irregular than the other. IMO this makes it more difficult to accurately sex RES by examination of the ear tabs. I caught this one less than two weeks ago, I am pretty sure this one is male as the ear tab margins are large and red.
Right side ear tab (irregular margin)
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153/Squidge_04/119_zps119c3d4e.jpgLeft side same fish (even margin)
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153/Squidge_04/130_zps1c6f7a97.jpg
Shorty - I am not seeing a significant difference in the two ear tab margins while allowing for slightly different photographic angles. Are we looking at the black or red margin? Does someone have the ability to insert arrows pointing to the irregular margin? Very nice specimen and I agree it is very likely a male.
Females tend to have thinner orange margins where the width of the colored portion is much more even (parallel) from top to bottom on the ear tabs on both sides. Males tend to have one side or both where the colored margin is much wider/thicker towards the bottom of the ear tab.
Red colored margins.
But in the black portion there is also some darker and lighter margins too.
Shorty, caught recently or is that an older picture?
Last time I went out a few days ago only got one light bite in an hour of fishing. Not seeing any FHM or small BG around the edge of the pond in the weeds like earlier. Water temp down to 43 degrees. Water is as clear as I've ever seen in in my pond. Can see the bottom in 5' water. Could actually see something diving but just can't convince myself to put on my 7 mil wetsuit to go look.
I assume the fish have went deep around structure?
I placed what I thought were 10 all male RES into my pond. One was not... 90% is pretty good accuracy, but not good enough. Fortunately, I wasn't that upset about the mistake. So far I have stocked over 3 dozen all male BG into the pond and 16 all male GSF. The big question will be if the RES female will only spawn with the male RES or look for some love from the BG or GSF. There will also be male and female RBS in the pond as of this spring.
CJBS2003, I'm curious if you have any update information to this very interesting pond stocking. Have you seen any recruitment RES/BG or GSF/RES hybrids?
I'm seriously considering building an additional half acre pond this coming spring. What I would like to try for stocking is FHM, RES (male & female) for the primary fish, then add a half dozen female GSF in hopes of getting some GRES hybrids. I would let the pond go two or three years and if/when over population looked to become a problem put some male only LMB in for recruitment control.
I have a sediment pond and forage pond with RES, an old pond with GSF and a 3 acre pond with LMB that I can use for stockers, so that will not be a problem.
I'm just curious to see how your mostly male pond with the male/female RES in it is turning out.
Now that I think I have figured out how to catch my RES, what kind of pictures do you want to see as we get closer to the spawn? Minimum size of RES to look at? Here are some I caught tonight.
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153/Squidge_04/20150422_172808_zpsidsach0y.jpghttp://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153/Squidge_04/20150422_172824_zps0fil1kc0.jpgLikely male.
Shorty, your fish have beautiful yellow colors on the underside and on the lower fins. Very striking. I notice your pond is in NE. I notice the fish from sparkplugs fish (Freedom, Indiana), have some of the yellow color too. Any way the two of you can compare what it is in your water, nutrients, feed, etc that brings out the yellow color?
Have either of you tested water for pH, hardness, iron, trace minerals etc in the past where you could line up the results and look for a common theme or clue?
beautiful fish!
I think the more vivid yellow tinting is partially diet and the lack of darker pigmentation. The lack of darker pigmentation is likely due to sexual immaturity and the pictures being taken outside of the spawn. I fully expect my larger, sexually mature dominant RES to darken up quite a bit in late May and June. IMO the lack of darker pigmentation also affects the appearance of the ear tab coloration as well making it appear more orange than red in males, "tweeners" as TJ likes to call them.
I am going to focus on taking pictures of 7"+ fish as we get closer to the spawn to focus on more sexually mature fish. One thing I have noticed taking pictures of the urogenital openings is that there may be some slight, but noticeable differences in the length of the pelvic fins when laid flat against the body that might be gender specific.
could be diet, age/maturity, but your picture of your golden shiner from earlier this year has amazing yellow on the bottom fins as well.
Most likely diet. Here is a Puget Sound cutthroat with yellow tinted fins, I have been told that cuts with yellow tinted fins are unique to the Puget Sound area. I do know that the Puget Sound has large numbers of diverse amphipods.
A few more from tonight. The smaller 5-6" RES seem to have brighter yellow colors to them while the larger RES are not so vivid, is there change in diet as they get bigger affecting color?
Also, in the 5-6" size class I am seeing slightly longer pelvic fins in the RES that I suspect might be male, the pelvic fins actually cover the urogenital opening when up against the body. Ones I suspect might be female in this size class the pelvic fins are well short of the opening. A little more investigation closer to the spawn should reveal if this natural variation in individuals, or an actual gender difference one could look for.
Likely Male.
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153/Squidge_04/20150424_172214_zpsggfrsrid.jpghttp://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153/Squidge_04/20150424_172228_zpssvdzlduu.jpg
Why are you rolling your RES in the dirt? I'm having enough trouble IDing them as it is.
Also...do I detect a little bead of blood? Dang vicious RES strikes again!
Why are you rolling your RES in the dirt? I'm having enough trouble IDing them as it is.
Also...do I detect a little bead of blood? Dang vicious RES strikes again!
That vicious RES was not cooperative with pictures last night, that tweener jabbed me hard enough to draw blood then jumped off the board and rolled in the dirt.
I placed what I thought were 10 all male RES into my pond. One was not... 90% is pretty good accuracy, but not good enough. Fortunately, I wasn't that upset about the mistake. So far I have stocked over 3 dozen all male BG into the pond and 16 all male GSF. The big question will be if the RES female will only spawn with the male RES or look for some love from the BG or GSF. There will also be male and female RBS in the pond as of this spring.
CJBS2003, I'm curious if you have any update information to this very interesting pond stocking. Have you seen any recruitment RES/BG or GSF/RES hybrids?
I'm seriously considering building an additional half acre pond this coming spring. What I would like to try for stocking is FHM, RES (male & female) for the primary fish, then add a half dozen female GSF in hopes of getting some GRES hybrids. I would let the pond go two or three years and if/when over population looked to become a problem put some male only LMB in for recruitment control.
I have a sediment pond and forage pond with RES, an old pond with GSF and a 3 acre pond with LMB that I can use for stockers, so that will not be a problem.
I'm just curious to see how your mostly male pond with the male/female RES in it is turning out.
Sorry, just saw this post. It appears I got reproduction. I'm certain most are not hybrids but it appears I got some hybrids. These hybrids are small now. As they get into the 3 to 4 inch range, more positive ID will be easier and I'll advise. I ended up stocking more RES when I realized I had added both sexes. We'll see how it plays out.
A few more from after dinner tonight. Two likely males and one female. The first male is a dandy and likely one of my original stockers, my first one over 10".
Take note of the shape and size of the urogenital openings.
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153/Squidge_04/20150427_193922_zpsllqsn60t.jpghttp://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153/Squidge_04/20150427_193933_zpsadvy5ija.jpg
Shorty - Great pictures. Thanks for taking time to get pictures and then to post them. Very good examples of male and female features. This very good information will help many pond owners who are interested in working with redear sunfish. This sexing of redear sunfish thread was added to the RES section in the Sunfish Primer in the Archives.
No Shorty, not getting tired of pics. Thanks for posting them.
OK, here is one more.
I almost always have my cell phone with me so taking pictures is never an issue.
If you look closely you can tell that this one is recovering from a cold water fin fungus that happened over the winter, both pectoral fins and tail have issues.
IMO this one is likely female based on the ear tab and the urogenital opening.
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153/Squidge_04/20150429_194327_zpsmfllwjtj.jpghttp://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153/Squidge_04/20150429_194338_zpsq2xmnvkl.jpgIt will interesting to see how much they darken up in the next 5 weeks as the spawn gets closer.
Shorty, are they moving into pre-spawn or maybe staging off the spawning areas yet? Wasn't sure what your water temps are currently. I noticed several RES nosing into the pea gravel spawning areas this evening, not nest building yet, but definitely thinking about it.
No bluegills, just RES.
I love the pictures and analysis Thanks! So the female vs male difference on the shots of the urogenital opening.. how would you describe the difference so others can see what you are seeing?
TO me the front hole is consistent male/female, the back hole is round and small on the male and on the female seems to have an upside down keyhole shape with the horizontal part near the front and the arch going towards the rear.
Is there a better way to describe the difference? Or another difference?
The best way to describe the difference of the urogenital opening is the size and shape. Males are smaller and more of flattened oval, females much larger and more rounded.
Shorty, are they moving into pre-spawn or maybe staging off the spawning areas yet? Wasn't sure what your water temps are currently. I noticed several RES nosing into the pea gravel spawning areas this evening, not nest building yet, but definitely thinking about it.
No bluegills, just RES.
Water temps have been in the mid to upper 50's but temps should jump this week into the lower 60's. I am hearing that the crappie are just starting to spawn at the area lakes here.
Likely female.
Likely male, you can tell the water temps have warmed up this week, the ear tab looks much redder.
After all the rain and muddy water of the last week I finally caught a few RES, an 8-1/2" and a 6"er.
This first one is kind of interesting, the narrow colored ear tab and creamy colored belly have that female look, the urogenital opening says male. Is this a subordinate male? A possible "sneak"?
The smaller one, likely female. My water clarity is currently 3-4".
Is this a subordinate male? A possible "sneak"?
Any thoughts or opinions if this might be the RES version of a "sneak"?
Likely female.
Likely male.
Likely male.
6"er from last night.
6"er from tonight
I have got to get some pics of the red ear i been catching .. last weekend we caught several that was 10-14 inches i just didnt realize that was a big redear because i have caught just a few till this year
What about this one Shorty?
Shorty you are a genius when it comes to catching RES. Followed your method in my sediment pond by fishing with a micro jig next to the bank. The fish in the picture caught today was one of four 6-8" RES caught from my main pond last fall and put in this sediment pond (1/10th acre) as breeders. Also stocked in this sediment pond was 175 RES 1-2" fry last fall. Today I caught the fish in the first picture. The second picture shows the bank area I caught it in. The third picture the jig I was using. I've also caught several 4-6" RES from last years fry stocking and have also caught a few 2" RES in a minnow trap that undoubtedly were a late fall spawn from last year from the 4 6-8" res I put in from the main pond.
All the RES caught by hook and line were caught within a foot or two of shore in less than 18" water. I suspect they come up in the shallow to find and feed on snails.
Nice RES snrub!
Catching RES out of my pond was kind of a happy accident, my original plan with the micro jigs was to catch a few GSH for bait.
What about this one Shorty?
Shorty you are a genius when it comes to catching RES. Followed your method in my sediment pond by fishing with a micro jig next to the bank. The fish in the picture caught today was one of four 6-8" RES caught from my main pond last fall and put in this sediment pond (1/10th acre) as breeders. Also stocked in this sediment pond was 175 RES 1-2" fry last fall. Today I caught the fish in the first picture. The second picture shows the bank area I caught it in. The third picture the jig I was using. I've also caught several 4-6" RES from last years fry stocking and have also caught a few 2" RES in a minnow trap that undoubtedly were a late fall spawn from last year from the 4 6-8" res I put in from the main pond.
All the RES caught by hook and line were caught within a foot or two of shore in less than 18" water. I suspect they come up in the shallow to find and feed on snails.
snrub / shorty,
nice RES...I Stocked 200 of them last September, but haven't seen one since. I've caught plenty CNBG on live worms fishing a couple of feet under a cork...just no RES. I figured they were just deeper or elsewhere in the pond, as I predominantly fish near the feeder. May try the micro jig in the shallows.
Do try the micro jig or a very small hook. I stocked 175 RES and 100 CNBG in my forage pond last fall and was trying to sample to see how big they had grown. The RES I have caught mostly were 4-5" and the CNBG 4-6" so it seems they have done ok. I had tried catching fish in this pond earlier with a slightly larger hook and bait with zero luck. Don't know if it was just timing, luck or the small jig but with the very small jig have caught a dozen or so fish in the last few days with not a lot of time trying. All caught (CNBG and RES) were very shallow near shore. Did not have any luck at all deeper. Not even a bite.
Even the 9.5" RES pictured above was right against the shore line. Did not expect to catch it and since it came right out of the water will little fight that fish had a lot of energy left. Thought it was going to beat me and itself to death before it settled down for a picture. Wish I would have thought to take a pic of the urogenital area but was so worried about keeping the fish in good shape and getting it back in the water, totally forgot.
I also caught one 6" RES out of my old pond yesterday. It was probably 4 feet out from the bank, but was still in only about a foot of water depth.
Snrub, based on the lighter orange ear tab I would guess the 9-1/2" RES you caught is likely a female.
That was my guess too, for what it is worth. All the fish coming out of this sediment pond are fairly washed out in color because of the recent rains and sediment in the water it is pretty turbid.
I wasn't really wanting to catch these breeder RES in case they were on the nest. But if it was a female, she would not be guarding a nest anyway. She did not appear to be plump full of eggs, so I assume her job was already over.
Here are two more 6"ers from tonight. One I believe is male, the other female, the ear tabs on both are very similar.
#1
#2
Your skill set reaches beyond mine, shorty. What are you seeing?
What difference do you see?
Does this drawing for sexing Tilapia help?
Photos of male & female Tilapia?
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255390
Female:
Male:
So the urogenital opening is the decisive factor? Where does that leave the different colors on the opercular theory standing?
Not doubting you at all. 2 does appear gravid, do the differences in urogenital orifices manifest themselves that vividly at times other than spawn or pre-spawn?
So the urogenital opening is the decisive factor?
I would say so, I would say that 80% of the time the urogenital opening also matches other characteristics that we would normally attribute as either male or female in RES. This difference is also easy to see outside of the spawn, go back and look at the pictures I took late last fall, the urogenital differences are still there and very noticeable. The larger the RES, the more noticeable it is.
Where does that leave the different colors on the opercular theory standing?
IMO RES have some sort weird dominance hierarchy going on that I have yet to figure out, I have watched it while feeding many times, it seems to become more prevalent as the spawn approaches. The most dominant fish tend to be the most brightly colored, both male and female, they also darken up more during spawning. In general females tend to be a noticeable shade lighter/duller than males, in general they also have thinner colored margins on the ear tab, but there is some overlap between dominant females and subordinate males. I do think that water clarity or the lack thereof also has an effect on how brightly colored the ear tab is. Keep in mind that I currently have just 7" of visibility now.
Every once in a while I do catch a smaller 4-1/2" to 5" RES where looking the urogenital opening leaves me scratching my head, I just assume that I have caught one that has not quite sexually matured yet.
After catching 250+ RES since the end of March I finally had 6"er take my micro jig deep in the gills. I was sure this one was female looking at the urogenital opening and it looked slightly gravid. The presence of eggs confirmed this one was female.
I have a lot of experience working with fish (I am a Fish technician at South Dakota State University). I just thought I'd throw in my two cents. It is next to impossible to sex centrarchids outside of the spawn, and during the spawn I don't think there are many very good ways to sex fish unless you can see the eggs, or the fish are spewing eggs or sperm out of the urogenital opening. Visual and physical cues can give you an okay idea towards gender, but I don't think that using just these to determine fish gender will give you 100% success.
Ryan,
With your experience, can you bring new information to the table that suggests that methods Shorty has worked out have not worked reliably? In other words have you used the size/shape of the urogenital pore in the way he has been using it? What is your experience with using other body traits (opercular flap color or other characteristics)?
Have you hit on a new body feature that you have felt could help distinguish the sexes? If so, we could help you confirm or deny that hypothesis by enlisting the help of the many on this forum who study their RES closely all the time.
You may have more opportunity to sacrifice the fish to check for eggs but many do not have the opportunity to do that in their ponds.
Thanks for chiming in. I bet working together we will find something reliable.
100% accuracy in determining gender in sunfish is a tough job. Even with BG who have much better sexual differentiation than RES, people still make mistakes. "Sneaks" and even the occasional female BG with scale tipping are where mistakes are made. Telling the difference between sexually mature male and female BG is fairly straight forward most of the time, even outside of the spawn. Is sexing BG foolproof? Nope.
I will say that examining the urogenital openings in RES, plus looking at other characteristics, some of which clearly overlap, one could divide RES into three groups, males, females, and "tweeners" (a not sure group). One could get close to 99% of the male and female groups right by leaving the "tweeners" out of the mix.
Is that good enough for a single sex pond? Probably not, but it would be helpfully if one wanted to target harvesting one sex or the other to skew the sexual balance in a pond. Like mentioned at the beginning of this thread, RES are one of the most difficult sunfish to sex. Of the 250+ pre-spawn RES I have caught this spring, the slight differences in the urogenital opening appears to be the best indicator of sex that I have seen so far. I will say that seeing it in person is much more clear than any of the pictures I have posted.
My RES are in full spawn mode now, the last three female looking RES that I have caught no longer appear gravid. We will have to wait until next spring to put my urogenital opening hypothesis to a test with a fillet knife. I do currently have a large year class of 6" RES that will be larger and prime for checking for the presence of eggs next spring, a fish fry will follow.
Ryan, if the water is warm enough during spring break next year you are invited to come down and test my urogenital hypothesis out, I would love to have someone with much more expertise in this area looking at the urogenital differences that I am seeing.
Shorty, did you fry up those RES eggs.....mmmm good!
Shorty, did you fry up those RES eggs.....mmmm good!
Nope, I have never tried fried fish eggs.
A little butter, salt, and pepper??? Any tips?
We prepare ours same way we fry fish. A light, seasoned breading, fried to a golden brown. Delicious. Watch out though, they tend to pop and explode occasionally, giving the cook a hot oil shower. Put a cover over the oil while frying.
I will deliberately target the female BG that usually hang out in deeper water right off the nesting colony, just so I can get the eggs. Plus, it's population management at work!
I will have to give fried fish eggs a shot.
Caught 5 small RES (4-6") out of my sediment pond a couple nights ago. In my tiny pre-sediment pond I noticed the last high water event some FHM has swam upstream and got into this "clean" pond. If the water was going to be populated with fish, I wanted to be involved with what was in there. So caught these RES and put in there for breeders. Knew I was not good enough to tell the sex (especially at that small size) so decided if I could catch some would go with a half dozen. Was quite pleased with an hour of fishing right before sundown near the bank like you have been doing coming up with 5. Yesterday already saw the largest (it had a bright red ear tab) was solid on a nest in about 8" of water. Then this morning saw another smaller one look like it was attempting to make a nest. Hope I have at least a couple females!
But also this morning, I saw a half dozen 1-1.5" lepomis right near this second RES. So not only some FHM made it up stream into this pre-sediment pond, either CNBG, GSF or RES also made it. Way too small for me to tell what they were.
Oh well. I knew it was only a matter of time. At least maybe the RES I put in there will get off a spawn before the smaller fish get big enough to do so.
If I start seeing more of the RES on beds, I may have to try and catch some more to make sure I have females.
Snrub, look at the urogenital openings. Note, two of these pictures are from last November, one likely male, and one likely female. I will try and get better detailed pictures of the difference.
Likely Males:
o
o
Likely Females:
o
O
Likely female, this one appears to still be gravid but given the current size of my GSH hatch, it might not be.
Likely male from tonight.
I think male also. That fish appears dark, like it's wearing spawning colors...was it on a nest, or could you tell?
My dog and my brother in-laws lab were in the pond and muddied it up a few days ago so I couldn't tell if this one came off a nest, but I suspect it was on a nest, my water clarity is currently about 6".
I did catch it in less than 18" of water in my shallow pea gravel area dragging my micro jig across the bottom slowly.
A few more from tonight.
Likely male, impressive ear tab.
Likely female.
One more from tonight, likely male.
Went out snorkeling in the pond a couple days ago. Wish I had put scuba on. Took a bunch of video of male BG on the beds and also found one lone RES near my dock that I got some video of. . Three what I assume to be females were moving around near the nest. Did not see any actual spawning, but they must have been close or I was just disturbing their activity. Most of the ones on beds around the 8" size.
Was pretty exciting to see. I've never done any posting video's on u-tube nor have I any experience at editing (lots of boring stuff in between the interesting stuff). Don't know if I will get around to getting any of it posted or not. Some turned out pretty good. Got some 16" CC on video feeding on some fish food I put down on some structure and waited. Hundreds of little BG then eventually three CC showed up. Cool stuff.
I would love to see your video snrub.
A few more from this morning:
Likely Female:
Likely Male:
You are a RES catching son of a gun Shorty.
Gonna be a while on the video, if I ever get it done (edited). The Goldwing and my wife convinced me we needed to go to Boston to visit friends and then we may jaunt over to Seattle to visit some other frineds, so may be on the road for a while. Miss the pond, but heading to ride the "Tail of the Dragon" in Tennesee this afternoon - if the rain will stay away. Video is back home on computer.
Lots of little GSH in the pond now, catching RES has really slowed down but here is a very chunky likely male from tonight. I am pretty sure the major part of my RES spawn is done but they may be a few stragglers.
Well that was interesting!
Ta quote Harry Carry, "HOLY COW" !!! Man after all those happy B-day wishes and it takes a post like Sexting Redear sunfish ta get a response. Happy ta see ya chime in again.
I haven't been on for months! My computer wouldn't let me! I got birthday wishes????
Bruce, as ya know I'm terrible with searches but ya might try searchin the date. The site has been real busy as of late so maybe bringin this up will entice a link to it from one of the large brains.
Probably shouldn't ask but ya sure it was yer puter, not the laughing gas or tin foil hat?
Man, how I've missed slammin ya and your and yours in return.
Tired of RES pictures? Seen enough?
Likely male from last night.
Nice work, Shorty. Is it post-spawn yet?
I would call it post spawn now, there may be a few RES spawning over the next several months but the majority of my RES should be done.
I have lots of very small (4-5 mm) unidentifiable fry in the water now that that I believe are RES, they are smaller and look different than the GSH fry I have been seeing for the last month.
Surface temps are close to 84 degrees now.
Nice job Ben. Ta hell with the Red ears, lets pick on Condello !!!
Ta hell with the Red ears
Blasphemy!
We can pick on "Caitlyn" in her B-Day thread.
Thanks for these posts Shorty. I need to get to work catching a few of mine and posting pictures for everyone to eval.
Please do post some pictures if you can, mine are getting a lot tougher to catch, especially the bigger ones. The only time I have been seeing my bigger RES lately is when I am feeding pellets. I am actually surprised by the number of RES and SMB that are eating pellets off the surface this year.
Here are a couple of smaller ones from today.
Likely female:
Likely male:
Shorty,
Love the photos. RES are pretty little fish and learning more about sexing them is interesting to me.
I was shocked and pleasantly surprised to catch TWO res on top water poppers last night. I posted a pic in the photo gallery a bit ago. I can only surmise that they are picking the snails off the log jam that is just sub surface and thought my bug was a crunchy goodie. Maybe you could give some top water stuff a try
CMM
I have been thinking going top water and using a fly. There are a lot of damselfly and dragonfly laying eggs on the surface right now and most of this years fry also seem to be near the surface.
Let us know how it works, my two were on big bass bugs while fly fishing. One was 11 inches, the other 10.
Cmm
Those are great looking fish!
Shorty, you try frying up some fish eggs yet?
Those fish look female to me, also.
Not yet but I will, these two might not be gravid, just fat from eating pellets.
Very interesting thread.
I will tell you from my own experience, that I will no longer sex another species, the yellow perch, based on the appearance of the urogenital openings. Two springs ago post spawn, I had about 100 yellow perch 8 to 11 inches I got back from two of the high schools that overwinter them indoors for me in systems I set up for them.
Anyway about 20 were textbook as far as female urogenital openings and I planted them in the female only perch pond. The rest were very iffy so they went into a cage.
Fast forward this year and I have YOY yellow perch in the pond. Apparently at least one of those fish was a male.
If I was to give advice to anyone sexing a species that does not show definitive sexual dimorphism, that would be to only sex a fish by the presence of sex products, i.e., milt when the fish is gently squeezed during spawning time, or a definite plumpness due to enlarged ovaries. Using a catheter tube if the fish appears to be a female to extract eggs would be a good idea.
If in doubt keep it out should be your motto if you are striving to have a monosex pond.
Perhaps the accuracy of my sexing was compromised in my pond due to the young age of the perch? (1 +)
Thus the use of the word "likely" in my picture descriptions. I'll be the first to say there is some overlap in general characteristics between male and female RES. The urogenital opening appears to be the most consistent difference that I am seeing along with other general stuff, one really needs to look at the whole fish to get a good picture. I plan on putting this to the fillet knife test next spring to see how accurate this really is.
In general male RES have wider and more brightly colored margins on their ear tabs, slightly longer pelvic fins, and the urogenital opening is roughly the same size as the anal opening.
In general female RES have a narrow and much more dull colored margins on the ear tab, slightly shorter pelvic fins, and a much larger urogenital opening size relative to the anal opening.
I have seen both what I would consider male and female RES to have brightly colored bellies, and creamy colored bellies. I would not use that as a sexual differentiation characteristic.
On the length of the pelvic fins, in general with what I believe are males the pelvic fins will completely cover the urogenital opening most of the time when laid flat against the body. With females the pelvic fins will not completely cover the urogenital opening when laid flat against the body most of the time. Body condition will affect how the pelvic fins appear when laid flat against the body and should always be considered. This did play a role in what I needed to do in order to get pictures of the urogenital openings, some I had to spread the pelvic fins apart, others I didn't.
Makes perfect sense to me. Excellent observations Shorty!
There might be a biological reason for the slight differences in pelvic fin length based on sex.
I can see where longer pelvic fins in males might aid in fanning the milt onto eggs as the are being deposited. I can see where slightly shorter female pelvic fins would be less likely to damage or touch the eggs as they are being deposited.
I haven't caught many BG this year but a cursory look at the pelvic fin lengths in the few that I have caught also appears to be sexually differentiated as well.
Next time you are BG fishing lay the pelvic fins flat against the body, male pelvic fins should come very close to touching the anal fin, females well short of touching the anal fin. Also note whether not the belly appears to be full, empty, or somewhere in between as this will affect how close the pelvic fin comes to touching the anal fin, it's all about the difference in "the gap".
Clear proof that fins are sharp and RES know how to use them !
Two likely males from last night, both caught on pellets.
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#2
Nice. I notice in your series of pictures over time the RES keep getting bigger. Couple more years you ought to have some whoppers.
I had a big one pop off last night that I never got to look at, not sure how big it was but it fought a lot harder than the 9-3/4" RES pictured from last night. It could have been a SMB but it didn't fight like a SMB.
I do have a large year class of 6" RES but all of my RES have become difficult to catch lately which correlates to a very large GSH hatch in my pond this year.
I've not caught any recently either.
Wish I could tell the little 2" ones. Some of the 3" fingerlings I caught in the minnow trap could see a tiny dot on the ear flap. All I am catching in the traps right now are smaller and I can't tell the RES from the CNBG.
In my pre-sediment pond (20x40') I put 4, 5-6" RES in there early summer from the sediment pond and one male went right on a nest. Trapping lots of 1" somethings out of there now, but can't tell if they are RES or CNBG that swam upstream from the sediment pond last high water event. Sure wish I could tell what I am getting. Kind of wish I had not put the CNBG in the sediment pond and just the RES, then I would have known.
I am on the fence on this one but if I had to guess, I would guess female as well. With that said, I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong on this one.
Its 51-49 with me in view of your prior pics (local adaptation). I could easily be wrong.
One interesting note on colored portion of the ear tabs, that area is very thin and is easily subject to getting damaged. When I occasionally see the RES in my aquarium being aggressive with each other they do nip at the cheeks and ear tab but I don't see this behavior very often. I wonder if the presence of another sunfish such as BG might result in more damage from nipping at the ear tab, at this time I do not have any other type of sunfish in my pond. The fish pictured above appears to have some damage to the colored portion on one side making it look thin and lighter orange like one would expect with a female RES. Is it a female? or a male who has been repeatedly picked on by a more dominant male?
It could be an immature male that has been pushed around (delayed maturity). But if you have males that length and condition with delayed maturity then you have a world class RES fishery.
I do have steep banks and very limited spawning areas in my pond, when the water level was down this winter 3+ ft I could only find a total of 5 beds/depressions around the entire pond.
Likely 9" male from tonight.
Male?
Caught yesterday in about a foot of water a couple feet from bank. Came from my sediment pond stocked as fingerling last fall.
Wish the second picture was better but the little bugger was doing his best to squirm and spike me. Moved this one to the pre-sediment pond where I saw a male and female spawning a few days ago.
Description: RES - possible male?
Description: urogenital opening
Likely 9" female from tonight.
Likely female from tonight.
Nice fish !!! Condition is outstanding.
Thanks Eric! These are mostly pellet fed fish that were caught on pellets. I have quite a few RES and SMB taking (non-hydrated) pellets off the surface every night.
All of my RES have been difficult to catch ever since this years hatch started reaching a 1" size or better. From late May until mid July I saw newly hatched fry along the banks each an every week, water temps have been very favorable for spawning this year.
In case any of you wonder how Shorty gets RES to hit pellets on top of the water, this likely is the explanation. A great thread on pellet training RES.
Pellet training RES
Likely female from tonight, another pellet fish.
Shorty, been wondering. How do you impale a pellet with a hook?
No impaling involved, just wedging the pellet into the bend of the hook on a micro jig.
I would never have thought of that.
I miss a lot of fish and have the pellet stolen frequently, my GSH instantly start pecking on the pellet when it hits the water. My hook up ratio is pretty low as the pellet covers the point on the hook and acts like a circle hook, but when I do catch a fish they are almost hooked in the upper lip.
Some RES will learn/adapt/condition to eat pellets.
I have a lot of RES eating non-hydrated pellets off the surface this year. I caught three of them last night on pellets, all likely females. I also have quite a few 14-16" SMB eating pellets too.
Sure is a lot of sex in this thread!
So you wedge the pellet between the barb end and the shank?
Yep, the jig makes it sink too, I am fishing it on a slip bobber rig.
Likely male from tonight.
Likely female from Thursday evening.
Likely male from earlier this week.
The following two fish are 16 months old.
REDEAR MALEREDEAR FEMALE
That's very interesting Bruce. I had always thought the ear tab would be bright red on a male unless that's a Bruce Jenner fish (Caitlin). LOL
Sure glad I don't have to sort Redears, but other than the light ear tab on that one, the darker color of that fish showing sexual dimorphism is pretty obvious. How often do you see the orange vs. red ear tab on males?
I just put 100 6 to 8 inch fish in a holding pond until next spring as I didn't want to take a chance on being wrong as I plant only males in the trophy pond! They came out of an outdoor recirculating tank and were very pale. I'm hoping next spring they will be easier to sex! They are only 1 year + fish which may be part of the problem too.
For some reason all of my fish went back into reproductive mode a couple of weeks ago. I can see the males guarding nests, and the females are all popping with eggs again. The top fish was nest-guarding and I tossed a little wet fly his way. I think the reason the eartab isn't more pronounced is the fact that this fish is only age-1. The bottom fish is obviously gravid. My personal experience with my fish is that the males are almost always dusky on the breast, and the females are almost always pale yellow.
Water temps here have recently dropped quite a bit to more favorable spawning temps. I wouldn't be surprised if this is what is triggering your RES to resume spawning or spawn for the first time. Surface temps were in the upper 80s a few weeks ago, yesterday my pond was 72 degrees in the morning, then 76 degrees at dusk. Water temps have dropped that much.
With the drop in water temps I have started looking for newly hatched GSH fry to show up, so far I haven't seen anything yet.
Nice RES Bruce! Pellet trained?
Yes, those fish get over half of their nutrition from pellets. The rest is from fatheads and grasshoppers!
Tell us more about the FHMs your RES are eating, any size preferences?
Likely female from tonight.
Likely male from last night.
My redear sunfish are cohabitating with a reproducing population of fathead minnows. I have observed, at dusk, with the green monster backlighting, the redears gorging on tiny fathead fry. My guess is that this comprises about 10% of their caloric uptake at best, but perhaps a greater percentage of their essential vitamins and minerals.
When my aquarium fish were 6-1/2" - 7" they preferred FHM 1-1/4" or smaller, they would eat them up to 1-3/4" but the larger ones were usually the last to get eaten. As the RES got larger they would eat them up to 2-1/4" but still preferred the smaller FHM. Length seemed to the the issue, RES like to be able to close their mouth and pop their jaw a few times once they inhale a FHM. If the FHM was too long with the tail sticking out the mouth then they would frequently spit the FHM out.
I do know that the RES in my pond became difficult to catch once my GSH started spawning this year.
The RES will catch minnows much easier and eat larger ones in an aquarium setting compared to the open pond habitat.
The RES will catch minnows much easier and eat larger ones in an aquarium setting compared to the open pond habitat.
That makes sense.
The interesting thing was most of the FHM were eaten after the lights went out in very dark conditions. They would occasional get one or two during the first few minutes when the FHM were intitially introduced into the tank. Basically a FHM would swim too close to a RES and get sucked in from a few inches away, but the RES wouldn't start to chase them around the tank until the lights were about to go out. When the lights were on they mostly just ignored the FHM in the tank. My aquarium RES had a very uncanny sense when the lights would go off every night and would herd the minnows into a ball just under the light about 15 to 20 minutes before the light turned off. Once the lights when out it was game on.
Those RES are in very good condition. Does the water have high salt content like Bruce's ?
I don't know, I have never checked salt content. There are saline marshes in the area though, the Lincoln area is also know as the "Salt Valley" and the road just north of our house of us is named "Little Salt" Road. The
Salt Creek Tiger Beetle makes it home 4-5 miles straight south of our place.
My water has been very green most of the summer due to farm fertilizer run off in the water shed, secchi disk readings are currently running 12".
Shorty - Your RES are getting to be really nice big fish.
A couple of likely males from tonight. Male #2 took a jig off the edge of the dock that was in the water while I was taking a picture of male #1, I almost lost my pole. He also jabbed my pretty good before I could get his picture taken.
Likely male #1
Likely male #2
Those are gorgeous fish!
Is the blood yours?
Is the blood yours?
Probably mine, I got jabbed pretty good before I took the picture and my thumb is still sore. This one did not want his picture taken and tail thumped the board every time I tried to take my hand off of him to snap a shot, that's how I got jabbed. I never did get him lined up right. This RES also bled lightly in the corner of the mouth when I unhooked him, so it it was either him or me. Given the number of times a 10" RES has made me bleed this summer, I would bet that the blood is mine.
Those RES are adapt at drawing blood !
Nice fish. How was the condition of those 2 vs. prior pictured fish ?
Condition was very good but not near as good as the previously pictured fish.
My smaller 6-7" RES and under have some stiff competition from a very robust GSH population. An interesting note on those smaller 6-7" RES, they became very uncatchable from late June until mid September which corresponded with a very large GSH hatch this year. I also have a lot of 6-7" GSH that are directly competing with that particular year class of RES for groceries. This years GSH hatch now ranges in size from 1-3/4" to 2-3/4" and are likely too large for for those 6-7" RES to eat, but still an ideal size for my larger RES over 9".
It also appears that I had decent late summer hatch of RES as I am seeing 1" RES sitting in a few inches of water along the banks after dark. My pond currently has no vegetation and very little structure for YOY to hide in.
Likely female from tonight, got jabbed once again and ended bleeding while taking the picture.
I can send you some band-aids if it will help. Do you prefer Transformers or Ninja Turtles?
I can send you some band-aids if it will help. Do you prefer Transformers or Ninja Turtles?
I'm good, I rarely bleed long enough to warrant a bandaid, but thank you for the offer.
I can send you some band-aids if it will help. Do you prefer Transformers or Ninja Turtles?
We do Sponge Bob here
All super nice fish Shorty.
Two from tonight, the first one I am not sure about but I'm leaning female, the second one is likely female.
#1
#2
From tonight.
#1 Likely male.
#2 Likely female.
#3 Likely female. (she escaped before I could get a 2nd photo)
#4 Likely male.
Holy Smokes!! what is the pond record now?
The pond record is almost 11", I have caught two of them that size in the last two weeks, both are likely males.
That is really amazing to me! Those are very young fish! It seems to me like you're destined to break the state record.
I have caught four RES over 10" in the last two weeks, all of them likely males. It might be a year or two down the road but a Nebraska state record RES is not out of the question.
Just to get them as big as you have is quite an accomplishment. Good work!
I need 10 Male RES! I will trade SMB!
I could get you some smaller male RES?
Here is an interesting one from this evening.
Left side.
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153...zps4so8vixr.jpgRight side.
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153...zps38nzjl2c.jpgUnderneath.
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153...zpskanhlxvj.jpgI am thinking male on this one but would pass if I were sorting for a single sex pond. This one looks very similar to one I caught a few months ago.
(Pictures posted 8-11-15 - male or female RES?)
After looking closely at the pictures I am confident this is the same fish that I caught and posted pictures of back on August 11th. Looks like it has grown an inch in that time.
I'm still amazed at how thick the fish are.
I'll check water temps in the pond tomorrow. RES in the cage were still eating.
Thicker than mine for sure. My RES look malnourished compared to Shorty's!
Is this one a male?
Description: RES approx 8"
Description: right side view
I am thinking male Snrub. Thank you for posting pictures.
I am going to test my sexing method with a fillet knife in the coming weeks before my RES start to spawn. I will need to do this quickly as water temps have jumped into the lower 60's in the last week. Will the presence of eggs or the lack of be sufficient for determining male or female fish? Anything else I should or could look for? Any thoughts on minimum size to test? I am thinking 7" just to be safe but most RES should be sexually mature at 5-1/2". How many "samples" would folks like to see?
This fish don't look too happy.
Hope it was a nice sandwich.
I cooked it up in the microwave for the dogs, they thought it was delicious.
So, are two confirmed RES enough samples?
I have a fairly large year class of 7" RES so I can do more fillet sampling and confirmation of sex in the coming weeks. I can leave the "unhappy" fish pictures out of the posts if you like. Just curious if we have seen enough to make attempting to sex RES a little easier or if I should sacrifice a few more RES on the alter of knowledge.
Thoughts?
Shorty,
Your work is outstanding! If you could post more side by side (or in this case, top over bottom) pictures of similar sized male and females like you did that would help. You mention the difference in the urogenital opening pore size. But if we have side profiles side by side and we study 5 or so examples, we may find other characteristics that also readily will help confirm from the outside. Perhaps if we can find 2-3 appearance characteristics that are reliable we won't have to cut them open in the future.
So far we know that the degree of redness on the ear flap is not reliable. The urogenital pore seems fairly reliable. But there must be other physical features. It just takes some examples and then some pattern recognition to find them.
For example, you can't see the fins well in these examples but would the male and female have the same number of rays in all the fins if compares side by side?
Or, in the example above, the male fish at the top has a funny looking scale pattern just north and a bit east of the ear flap. If the flap as a circle was a clock, just past 1 pm there is some unique markings. The male has a slight depression and then a concavity shaped in the shape of a triangle or 'less-than sign' In that same area the female has 2 discrete rounded mounds in a stair step pattern. That may just be random scale difference but if we lined up 5 or 6 pairs of fish, about the same age, length and male right next to female, we might catch more patterns.
Cooler, muddy water is complicating my effort to come up with pairs for comparison. Tonight's result was just one fish, I will try for a male tomorrow night. I will spare you the "unhappy" fish pictures but the egg sack on this one looked quite a bit more mature and colorful than the previous female I posted.
Verified Female RES.
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153...zpsehsdn9cv.jpgUrogenital opening:
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq153...zps5ftnxhux.jpg
Nice work Shorty. Did you ever get around to frying up those RES eggs....
I haven't tried them yet, on a single fish this size the egg sack is fairly small.
Steve doing great work here...need to come out and help me sex some RES for transfer to the YP/BG pond. Wait, that didn't sound right...
and then the Grimes photo showing non-coppernose...
...and redears, of course, on the left.
Top left is the female RES
Verified small male from tonight..
Great pics Shorty.
Could you get me a picture of the Pharyngeal teeth of a RES?
They are always talked about, but I have never been able to find any pictures. Tried searches on the web with no luck.
Shorty, can you post a pic of the teeth? I've also never looked at/for them.
Since Photobucket no longer allows 3rd part hosting I went ahead and edited some of the posts in this thread and removed [URL][IMG]...[IMG/]URL/] tags on a few pictures so a direct link can be clicked on to go to Photobucket and view the picture that once showed up in a thread.
WARNING: I would NOT click on the direct link to Photobucket unless you have an adblocker installed on your browser.
This might be a work around for salvaging pictures on older threads.
Thoughts?
Shorty I can't see anything when I click on the link.
Here you go on the teeth pic.
Ewest, I think that if you are logged into your own Photobucket account that the direct links to other accounts might work.
I will add a few pictures here.
Male female side by side.
The yellow of females blanches as season progresses unless on diet loaded with carotenoids.
I have seen both males and females with yellow bellies and seen both with blanched bellies at all times of the year. There is something with carotenoids in the pond as very yellow fin tinting is also very common with golden shiners.
When we breed sunfish such as RES indoors, the feed is often supplemented with paprika. Purpose is to increase coloration of eggs. Clear-ish eggs do not appear to hatch as well. The females store the carotenoids as pigment in the skin. The pigment is mobilized each time the female matures a batch of eggs. Females pushed hard to produce multiple clutches in rapid succession get a silvery look.
Snails and the like may not be good sources of carotenoids. Crustaceans like in the plankton, which BG more inclined to eat, are better.
Here is a male RES some yellow on his belly. Is there any reproductive purpose for a male RES to carry carotenoids on their belly?
Click on the picture for a full size image.
Female with yellow tinting on the belly.
Click on image for full size view.
Another female.
@Shorty,
Are the pictures current?
Male RES
Jim, these are from the last two years, stuff I had on Photobucket that is no longer accessible in this thread. I am trying out postimage.org which allows posting thumbnail images for forums. These pictures are dated coded July and August of 2015.
Thanks. I can sex RES in spring prior to breeding season at a glance by keying in characters you point out. When breeding commences the males get a smokey to black look (some get really black). After breeding season till about now sexing the RES is tougher as they are thinner and yellows less evident on females. As fall progresses they plump up and get the yellows back.
As a general rule I don't try to sex anything under 5-1/2" as it's just too iffy. I have found that the differences in the urogenital openings are pretty consistent year round, even outside of the breeding season. The two things I look for are the coloration and size of coloration on the ear tab, then I check the urogenital opening to see if it matches.
Males have a larger and darker red coloration on the ear tab and the urogenital opening is almost the same size as the anal opening.
Females have a more orange and slightly smaller coloration on the ear tab and the urogenital opening is noticeably larger than than the anal opening, even outside the breeding season.
Every once in while I will catch a smaller one that doesn't quite match either or but most of the time it is very consistent.
Female from October 4th last year.
Click on thumbnail for larger view.
Gamete expression while wearing glasses can often get you done to 3" is the fish are in good condition.
Below has been more of an academic interest except when working with smaller sunfish needed to breed under controlled conditions in a pinch. I have yet to try it with RES, but I can sex a lot of sunfish by isolating individuals in a 10-gallon aquarium for a few days with good lighting and temperature then introducing water from a known female sunfish that is getting ripe. Usually the suspected males will start digging within a day. Introduction of a ripe female of similar size to the male can later stimulate a dance that females do not do.
One more, a male from November 5th 2016, well outside the breeding season.
Click on thumbnail for larger view.
Why not using the same group of fish, take a series of photographs showing how they look as a function of season?
I have several hundred photos of RES all from my pond, taken from early spring in February to late fall in November located on two different Photobucket accounts. I still haven't figured out how to catch them through the ice yet. Those pictures show all sizes. I have a lot more photos than that taken throughout the year on my computer.
The urogenital difference is there year round with just small percentage of RES that fall in that in between area that might be questionable. With the ear tab coloration and size there is a bit more overlap between male and female RES. Water clarity and daylight conditions do affect overall coloration so there can be a lot more variance in that area.
Link to my Photobucket albums.
http://s443.photobucket.com/user/Squidge_04/library/?sort=3&page=1http://s443.photobucket.com/user/Squidge_04/library/Mobile%20Uploads?sort=3&page=1http://s38.photobucket.com/user/sbrinkerhoff/library/?sort=3&page=1I have caught some of the same fish more than once at different times of the year, too bad Photobucket ruined that thread and this one.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=412670&page=1
I am pretty sure this is non-breeding male (7") RES caught today. Keep in mind my water is pretty green and water clarity isn't real great right now so my fish look a little washed out. After looking at this one again this could be one of those in-betweeners I occasionally see.
Click on thumbnails for larger view.
Here is a 5" from today I think is a male but I wouldn't bet on it.
Click on the thumbnails for a larger view.
Here is a 5" from today I think is a male but I wouldn't bet on it.
Click on the thumbnails for a larger view.
What comes out of the urogenital opening when you express abdomen for gametes.
Here is a 5" from today I think is a male but I wouldn't bet on it.
Click on the thumbnails for a larger view.
What comes out of the urogenital opening when you express abdomen for gametes.
Are you saying I should give them a gentle sqeeze for a better look/expresion? What should I be looking for to come out?
Even this time of year? I am pretty sure we are about done with fall spawning.
More often than not you can express gametes in the fall once the fish are back into good weight. Volume will be low and care must be taken not to cause damage. A great deal of feces will obscure view. You will likely note eggs expressed will appear smaller and likely "greener" than you see in spring prior to start of spawning season.
I will give it a shot with a very gentle squeeze, given the low number of RES 5" and larger that I currently have I will need to be careful.
Nothing with a gentle squeeze on this 8" RES, I am very confident this is a male though. We have had almost six inches of rain in the last week so the pond is high and muddy, visibility is currently 4" and water temp is right around 65 degrees. Colors are very washed out on this RES. Note that the ear tab coloration is slightly larger on one side compared to the other.
Click on images for larger view.
Good looking fish Shorty.
I caught several 4" RES today with the cast net in my 1/20th acre forage pond while collecting GS.
A few from this morning.
Female RES
Male RES, I really like the colors on this one.
Love the color on that male.
The orange spotting on the flank rather than typical blue or black does look unusual.
Nice work Shorty. Thanks for the info and pics.
Same fish? Markings looks similar.
Female RES from last night.
Male RES from last night.
Same fish? This picture is from June 29th, colors are much darker.
Nice one. Be it the same one or its twin!
When fishing for RES, are you primarily fishing the bottom or are you using a float?
Fishing near the bottom with a slip float (casting bubble) and a micro jig.
Male from last night.
Thats a dang nice chink-a-pin!!