I have once again conferred with my contractor and one of the subjects was the principal spillway. The spec's of the project: approx 5 surf acres, approx 35 ac/ft, 60 ac of drainage (about 40 ac of which is row crops), 36" avg annual precip.
The original plan was to utilize 2 separate 12" dia spillways. They will run for a considerable distance thru the valley we are filling in downstream of the dam. The overall spillway tube length will be 260 ft. The idea for 2 separate spillways was to cover the potential of one clogging, particularly since the pond is surrounded by heavy timber and I won't be there to watch it every waking moment.
The new thought is a hybrid of improvement with some savings. The improvement will be going to a single 18" dia pipe. The savings will be with material (likely minimal) and installation time. The 18" pipe will allow an even larger area of flow than a pair of 12's. The logic is that it if one 12" pipes is gonna clog with sticks and leaves/crap, the second one is probably not far behind. An 18" dia pipe will be less likely to clog, compared to a couple of 12's.
This all makes good sense to me. Kick back some thought, pondmeisters.

Personally, I like the odds for one 18" pipe clogging AFTER either/both 12" ones. Either way, clogged pipes and extraordinary rain events are what secondary/emergency spillways are for. What's your plan for your emergency spillway?

ahhh, yes...the emergency spillway. This is just one more facet of the engineering where I tip my hat to the guy I am paying to make this pond happen.
Like many ponds, the emergency spillway was planned to run around one end of the dam. The inflow/outflow calc's indicated that it may very likely never even get used...unless...the principal got clogged.
About 6 months ago, I got a brainstorm to divert about 5 or 6 acres of adjacent run-off into the pondsite. It would be reasonably easy, but would mean dropping the level of the pond by 24". Why? Because this new-found drainage was that close in elevation to normal pool. I started a thread here to weigh out the better decision of 6 additional ac of drainage or 2 additional ft of depth over 5 ac. pond. When I shared the thought with my contractor (who, at that time, was unaware that I had discovered the additional 24" of depth within the pond basin), he thought about it for a night and called me back. He says take the 24" of additional depth and we will put the emergency spillway at the area where you were gonna bring in the 6 additional ac of drainage. The boss and I immediately headed out to the site with the laser level and tripod and started shooting thru the woods to verify the potential outflow at this point...it will be perfect. The biggest change and only work that must be done to facilitate this emergency is to put a 20' culvert under a section of the new driveway. The crowning jewel, tho, is that it puts the emergency spillway at the opposite end of the pond, some 700 feet away from the dam.
Pretty slick "out of the box" thinking...makes it a little easier to sign the check.
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(edit; found the thread about 24" add'l ht. vs. 6 ac watershed: 24" vs. 6 acres thread )

Brettski,

Why not use one 12" since you have the emergency spillway? My other thought is that if one 12" dosent work, use one 18"...another thought is to use a vaccum breaker (or syphon) design and avoid clogs altogether.

My thinking is LESS holes through dam = better.

Gator

60 acres of drainage sounds somewhat skimpy in the midwest for that pond size. Is there a spring that runs through the area in the summer or a continous high water table?

But what do I know, I'm not a pondologist

agreed...somewhat. It is about 1/2 the ideal volume based on local stat's., but definitely not a pond deal-breaker. The payback for waiting a little longer for fill-up is the peace of mind when a 10 year rain does occur.
nope...but tons of killer clay to hold what juice is gonna be there. That, and it is a bowl completely surrounded by tall timber so the wind evap. is minimized.

DAM!!!

About 80% of the dam completed. The white PVC strainer core is barely visible at the toe. The dam is a few feet short on height and both ends are lower still to allow circuit-movement of soil to fill in the valley down-stream. It's time to start gettin' serious about placement of the primary spillway pipe.
The clay is simply extraordinary. Once the 2 - 3 ft of topsoil was removed, the subsoil is gold. The entire dig zone in front of the dam is awesome with killer clay. My contractor noted one small zone nearby that had a vein of lesser quality, but even that was reasonable.
(The "boss's" street truck is outta place here, but meets the dirt challenge as long as it doesn't rain)

Pretty freakin' exciting, ain't it!

Any ideal how deep the "killer clay" goes? Looks exciting here!

Hey Ahvatsa...good to hear from ya
We buried a buncha root balls in the valley behind the dam and well down-stream. The hole was about 13-14' deep and it showed no signs of stopping. Before I even purchased the parcel, I pulled the DNR well drilling records and got 3 recent wells, all within 2000' or so. They were consistent, reporting the first 30 ft is blue, yellow, or brown clay.
...Sir Gallus delivers a report from the Ohio side of the Round Table: Yes, sire, indeed it is!

Brettski

It's amazing to see your progress and how nicely it's all coming together. Some people just get lucky and it happens that way, but you are making your own luck!!!

Are you still building a pier? I remember a discussion about different ideas on how to do it and I'm curious what you've decided and when you'll start work on it?

Thanks for the pics,
Eddie

Brettski,

Nice work on the dam, great pics. I like the clay!

Gator

Thanks gents...it is truly an awesome blessing that we are experiencing. I, unlike the skillful and tenacious DIY'esness of guys like Eddie Walker and Meadowlark, rely on the performance of a 2 man crew that does this stuff for a living. As Eddie mentioned in his "Building My Lake" thread, it is rewarding when the vision turns out better in reality. My contractor does exactly what Eddie does...thinks about how to take my vision and move it up a couple more notches. I have nix'd very few of his suggestions. One outstanding idea was to cut back into the trees another 30' and add a road that starts at the boat launch/bldg site, follows the perimeter, tucks into the woods at a peninsula, then pops out the other side at the dam, goes across the dam, and comes back about 1/2 way the length of the pond, terminating at an open knoll where the sand beach will be located.
A pano-shot from the front edge of the proposed yard at the building site. Launch is immediately left, out of frame. Road begins there and follows the left perimeter. Dam is just left of center, around a slight bend, some 700 ft away. Knoll and beach at open area, upper right. The balance of the perimeter at the far right is going to be left shallow 3 - 4 ft. About 1 - 2 ft deep will run up into the timber. This is designed and reserved as a wetland zone, perhaps a half ac total.

...oh yeah...the pier(s)
Yep, I just got back from Menards. They had their stainless steel lags/bolts on sale...$300 worth. I submitted a drawing to a metal-fab shop near work; they are laser cutting and bending my stainless post support bases. I nix'd the Simpson pre-fab units as too expensive. My design will be well over-engineered for strength and still cheaper. I gotta do a balancing act with pouring concrete and establishing at least the framework of 2 piers before water finds me. A bitter-sweet thought...I want rain, but not until I'm ready, please. Being the drier days of Summer, I think my timing will be as good as it's gonna git. I imagine, tho, that it's gonna take a long time to fill 'er up with 60 ac of drainage. Yeah, right...then I think about PFF's and Rockytopper's overnite sensations!

Brettski:

Nice "pano" - pieced together, I presume? Either you are very selectively squeezing the inside of the two frames to eliminate the distortion I always get (and nicely done, I must say), or like another Illini, the late Senator Paul Simon, you favor the bow-tie. I may have to figure that out (the anti-distortion, not the bow-tie).

When we had Dell deliver the PC some 3 or 4 years ago, it came with some software junk, alot of which I don't care about nor use...except...the Canon Photo-stitch program. As I sit here peeling a banana and hanging from my cage by my tail, I rest asssured that even I can perform outstanding photo-stitches. The bowtie thing is an option for wide angle (suddenly I have a taste for pasta... ) Yes, it is a pair of panned scenes.
Pardon me now as I resume tossing and beating this Samsonite suitcase.

Awesome thread Brettski....great lookin clay, I am impressed at your level of research on the property in the first place....you should be very proud despite the wallet woes......, and now, so close to seeing the dream completed.....very exciting.

D.I.E.D.

Brettski,

Remember, I've got dibbs on a visit to the site.

Don't worry about the 60 acres...don't look back, only forward. It's going to be one great pond! (Even with those holes in the dam )

Brettski :

Remember that you were/are going to do a thread on the entire process. You may need to cut and paste from this thread to the other thread to make it complete. Great job with the pics but even more so on the pond methods/planning and thread/story concept.

Meadowlark...the gate is open for ya anytime! I know you luv the dozer stuff. The guy runnin' the dozer is actually a retired dirt guy that can't get enough...done it all his life. (I imagine the pay package is fair incentive) Red makes that D-6 dance...not one wasted motion. I mean he pops that thing around like he's attached to it. I know he would learn ya a few things, be happy to do it, and I would double his pay knowing the value of the edumacation.
John, the other guy and the boss, typically runs the excavator and the scraper (E-mover). It is nice these past few days to finally see volume production of dirt movement. The scraper is now the main player. It's an older model (1984?), but John really takes care of his equipment. It shows...and still delivers.
...and, finally, they keep cuttin' and scrapin' and the clay won't stop...a shot after many scraper passes in front of the dam:

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Ewest...yep, you bet I will compose a collective analysis and summary into one thread. I think it will be a nice Fall/Winter project. If it will help somebody else like you guys have helped me, I am obliged and deeply humbled.

Brettski- It is so great that your dream is finally coming true. Keep those great photos coming.

Brettski,

I'll second Ponds. Keep the pictures comeing!!!

The picture of the dozer is really nice. Do you know how much dirt he's moving? Mine is rated for three yards, but I have a different type of blade. That one looks like it's doing twice what I am!!!!

Thanks,
Eddie

Brettski what is the next step after pond construction wrt fish , if any ? Now is the time to plan and fix the pond bottom to meet your fish needs , if any. For example if SMB then look for some chunk rock/large gravel/broken up concrete and think about where to put it. Other structure needs and desires (like your tires) are much easier to do now now with the equipment than later with water. Same for pond bottom humps , cuts , rip-rap and ledges etc.

Another question are you putting a pier next to your beach ?

eddie_walker the D6H pushes about 7 yards and is 165 horsepower.

brettski, you are going to have a beatiful pond. I can't wait to see pics of how the emergency spillway comes out.

Ewest...
Yes, indeed...da fish. It is no mystery that I come to this forum with very little fish background. My drive was nothing more than creation of a beautiful water feature. I always had plans of stocking, but had no idea of the depth of the art and science until I arrived at PB. Quite simply, I had never walked a mile in the shoes of a fishing nut. Now I realize the value and will endeavor to do the right thing.
I expect that I will resume where I left off as a boy, fishing on ocassion, now and then. This place will be a "vacation home" situation, so I need to select a viable, self maintaining pond stock. Based on all I have absorbed, I lean toward the standard LMB, BG, CC mix with step one being FH forage base establishment.
The pond will run about 15 ft deep at the dam and about 11 ft at the opposing end. I plan some ditches and humps. Cuts into the banks creating ledges that drop off in 2-3 ft increments are planned. Yes, the tires will be assembled to create "jungle gyms". I have the materials waiting in the garage for about 6 PVC trees cemented into concrete based buckets. Hopefully these turn out well and I have the time to make a bunch more before the water backs up...?? I never gathered the wooden skids. I am having a wierd problem with their actual need for FH spawning. There will be a 1/4 ac zone of wetland depth that I expect will over-grow with vegetation...planned that way. Is it fair to say and expect that this will provide the natural objects that FH are looking for to attach eggs? If not, I could still get the skids and sink 'em in there. If they are needed, how many?
Yes, there is a pier planned at the beach area. I remember your point of it's logistical value WRT the swim area. Besides, the beach will be some 1/3 + mile away from the building site via the perimeter road. If I decide to use the Liberty Ferry to get there, I will need a place to dock her.
JBL...
The emergency spillway winds up being the lowest tech, lowest cost facet of the entire project. As luck would have it, the lowest natural bank on the entire perimeter is right at an out-flow area that works. We had to remove a swath of trees about 40 feet wide, 50 feet deep into the woods, and cut down the bank about 1 ft.....finito.
I s'pose I better get you guys kickin' in ideas v soon. Bring it on...thanks.

and you can push a whole lot more when its moist clay that rides up over top of blade by a couple feet.........nice pics brettski.

Brettski,

Dang, that D6 high-trac looks good pushing up dirt! It makes my mind wonder with all the possibilies I could perform with one of those machines.

Keep the pictures coming and good luck.

Gator

I am off of work this week...vacation time...yeah, right. Each day is a commute to the pond project, spend/work about 6 or 7 hours, then commute back home. I'm somewhere between exhausted and thrilled.
I asked my dirt guy about the blade on the D-6. He says it's 11'-4" wide and called a "semi-U". The ends creating the "U" cup are perfect for not only rolling up yardage, but hooking onto tree stumps and draggin' trees. The bottom 2 corners are kinda pointy and dig into the root ball. He scratched his head and said that he remembers that blade catches 7 yards.

Da dam, she be done.
The entire pondsite was an ideal topo. The dam stretches between 2 hills that create a valley. We decided to clear the valley behind the dam, also, to provide more space to waste soil. This turned out to be a .7 ac zone. The bonus is an easily managed area with a nice, gentle 12:1 slope. This shot is from the back end of this zone, looking upward to the dam stretching left and right:

This next shot is standing on top of the finished dam grade (like you needed me to tell you that :rolleyes: ). I spec'd a 20' wide roadbed. This vantage point provides good reference for the grade of the zone behind the dam:

...and, finally, a shot looking from atop the dam, near center. The drain filter (vertical, black pipe) is visible some 20 ft below. The high site to the left is .22 ac where the sand beach and small pier will reside. Upper right, in the distance and around the point, a PU truck is parked on the proposed building site about 700 ft away.

Now, onto re-grading the draw that is directly adjacent to the end of the dam, installing a culvert and roadbed connecting the dam and the beach area. Then, back to the building site to pile up some more soil extracted from within the pond basin in front of it.

12:1 on the backside of the dam - that's gonna be a breeze to mow.

Brettski,

Thanks for the update and pictures. It's amazing to see the progress and how nice it looks.

Is your road going all the way around your pond? I think you said it's ending at one location and will be a dead end. I like to walk around mine and it's fun to take people for a ride around the entire area, not to mention being able to access the lake from every side.

Just curious,
Eddie

Mr Walker pays a generous compliment:
Many thanks, Eddie. The boss and I were discussing the enormity of the project, the results, and the costs. In the beginning, the plan was nothing more than a pond...a hole in the ground with water, located in the middle of the woods. Then I followed my better judgement, passed on DIY, and hired the more expensive contractor interviewed...the one with the local reputation. He has truly delivered. The results have turned into a mini State park. From this level, the $ pain is easier to stomach. At least that's my justification.
Yes, the road does end at the .22 acre beach zone. The balance of the pond shoreline perimeter (about 20 - 25% of it) follows an area where a neighbor home and property line is about 200 ft thru the woods. It is also location to a main feed draw. We decided to NOT remove any more timber in this area, allow the water to back up a couple of feet, and leave the pond portion shallow. This will be a nice wetland zone. A good compromise...lemonade from lemons, if you will. In return, I have opted for a small pier at this beach zone, the dead end of perimeter travel. This, combined with the main pier at the building site, will provide another interesting alternate to commute to the beach and knoll; the Liberty ferry.

Brettski- How deep will your pond be at the deepest point? I wish you were closer so I could come and watch. I love watching the dirt work. Your appreciation of fishing will come with time. When you are older and retired it will become a passion. Now comes the long wait for rain. The days will pass like weeks sometime and you will get to know the National weather service website well. Good luck and keep those photos coming.

PFF,
Funny you should ask WRT the depth. I had another of my many detailed telecon's with my contractor this morning. He set up the rotational laser and shot a few elevations for verification. He said that I have an average 14 ft deep in front of the dam, spreading over an area of about 1 acre.
Now, the fishing thing. I sit here, sweaty and stinkin' from mixing the cement and filling the five gal buckets and drillin' and cuttin' the PVC for the PVC trees. Six of 'em are completely pre-fab'd, six more to go on the bench. These things worked out so good that I gotta try to make a bunch more. My schedule, though, is tight with multiple pond projects. I will need those days with the "long wait for rain" to execute the underwater stuff.
Thanks for the props!

Brettski, there are no words, it is simply Awesome. Gotta love that view from the front porch.

hey brettski, forgive me if i missed this in (this or) another thread, but did you (guys) keyway the dam? just curious (and after the fact) but in pondering your geological situation, i would think w/ what appears to be a relatively homogeneous massive clay layer as your substrate that the need for a deep keyway was somewhat lessened, although I would also think a shallow keyway would still be wise to "re-connect" the disturbed soil used for dam w/ the undisturbed soil. what did you and your guru come up with on that?

Dave, no forgiveness required. It is a great question...I know, because: Core question thread
My last post on that thread, page 4, confirms a core was cut and packed.

Well, this week's update.
Alot of rain this week. When it's fairly sloppy, my guy won't waste time. We still got pretty good production, tho, all things considered.
The dam is done. The adjacent draw is filled in and the roadway traversing it is built up with a culvert. The beach area berms are in (thanks Ewest, Ryan, Bob Lusk, and others). Today, the boss and I suffered 93 degrees x 100% humidity unrolling the 15' x 300' geotextile fabric, cutting it to length, and preparing it's placement for the sand pour. About 3/4 of the building pad is complete...this is another mega dirt-haul in itself.
A pano from the edge of the completed section of the building pad. You can see the outstanding job they did building up a roadway at the left side:

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...a better shot looking up the fabricated roadbed as it travels the south perimeter. We are standing at the boat launch (adjacent to the building pad) and looking toward the dam.

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...after following this same roadbed, it will pop into the woods at a wooded point. Just before we slip back into the woods, we look across the basin toward the dam/left, filled-in draw/left-center, and the knoll with beach area/right. 2 of the 7 geotextile strips are laid in and waiting for load #1 of sand:

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...we follow same road thru about 100 ft of woods and pop back out at the dam, where road continues across. We are looking across the dam and into the draw that had to be filled in to get above water level. The dam is mostly straight. The part that turns right is mostly the roadbed that was built up to cross the draw and get to the beach (black geotextile fabric patch visible thru woods/right)


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Hopefully, if the rain holds off, I pick up the 18" pipe for the principal and we install on Monday. Then, the dirt-guys go back to finishing the building pad.

That's gonna be gorgeous, Brettski.

Very impressive!!!

It's real nice to see what profesionals can do and how it turns out. Being an amature dirt mover, this is something I truly appreciate.

Yesterday I was driving by a new Super Walmart being built in Longview, TX and had to stop and admire the work an operator was doing on the parking lot.

Thanks for the updates,
Eddie

Very nice!

I see what appears to be dozer tracts on the face of the dam?


If so, this is a great way to incorporate grass seed into the new fill and at the same time stabilize the slopes.

I hope "mother nature" cooperates and fills this beautiful structure soon.

Ed

Hi Brettski, i forgot to ask.....is that rainwater accumulation or groundwater? reason i ask is that GW was my clue i had seepage via hydraulic pressure and bedrock substrate (as opposed to seepage thru base of dam which is where I thought it was before we cleaned out pond). we had GW accumulation within hours of initial renovation work, so the deepest areas of pond received thick layer of compacted imported and native clay, feathered out in all directions.

with your clay i would be surprised if 1) it is groundwater and 2) that no amount of hyd. head could drive significant seepage through that beautiful blue stuff you have.

in your prop. research, did you determine where GW might be just out of curiosity?

...excellent point, Ed...thank you.
...the local consensus is pretty much the same. Might take a couple of years to fill 'er, but then again....ya never know with a couple of gully washers.
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Dave,
The wells were average 135 ft deep. Off hand, I don't remember the static water level, but it was pretty far down. The water you see is the result of 1.6" total rainfall over a couple of days. I have the drain closed to a trickle. I want to have some water available to give the drain a good flushing before I close 'er up for good.
Yes, you're right...we never hit GW or anything remotely damp. Although it doesn't appear this way (and other than the 2 mega-holes near the building pad), there is not an area that was excavated any deeper than 4 - 5 feet.

Hey Brettski, did they leave the cleat marks from the dozer treads running up and down your dam slopes or cross-wise? Back (before PB) when my pond was dug, my excavator said the cleat marks should run up and down the slope to allow water runoff and limit the size of any erosion before the grass cover grew - kind of spreading the runoff out into lots of little rivulets rather than letting it collect into a few big ones.

Hadn't thought of that until you and Ed brought it up.

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hmmmm...do I detect a conundrum? Both arguments are sound. I guess the final decision lies in what exists. The tracks run perpendicular to the slope. Advantage Eitel.
(funny, tho, when ya think about it...between the two goals of veg. establishment and minimizing run-off, each proposed "cleat direction" scenario tends to hinder one of the goals)

Time for a compromise - run them on a 45 and accomplish neither goal. Probably tick off the dozer operator, too.

He wouldnt be ticked off.....he'd say "yes Mr. Brettski, whatever you want" and just add some hours to invoice.

i ran mine up and down (perp. to slope), both the hydroseeding stuck better w/ that geometry and the erosion factor was minimized.....we had some real gully washers last winter.

My contractor put a smooth metal bar on the bottom of his blade and back dragged it smooth as a baby's behind.

I agree with pondForfun, all my contractors have back dragged the tracks out as the final touch. The last contractor even brought his motorgrader out and really smoothed it up.

Brettski, what a great thread! Your place is turning out beautiful. I will be modeling my future pond in my dreams after yours. Now to get some grass established to protect this wonderful dirt work. Unfortunately the ideal time to seed is around the second week of September. I used a rock hound/landscape rake attached to a skid loader to prepare seed beds for grass. It picked up rocks off of the surface and left a nice smooth finish. I recently came across a similar attachment called a "soil conditioner" in a rental catalog claiming that it is ideal for preparing seed beds. I've never used one but it looks interesting. This final step may be good to get taken care of while you dirt guy still has equipment there. I seeded and mulched (straw) myself and watered for a couple of weeks where possible. The areas I could water turned out great, the areas I couldn't didn't and are going to require some minor renovations. I would hire a hydoseeder to do an area as large as yours especially since watering will be rainfall only.

Keep the posts and pics coming

Here's a link to the soil conditioner http://www.bobcat.com/products/att/soilcondition.html

Thanks for the tips on the grass stuff, guys. I'm working a few angles on that one...will fill ya in later.
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OK, some more pond-improvement and progress reports. The sand beach is in...pretty dang cool. This is another facet that came together well because of the PB support unit/beach team. We flagged an area of 40' wide x 90' long. The 90' part is 1/2 in the water, 1/2 out. I had John use the scraper and he grabbed some of the bounteous good clay, then laid out a berm around the 40' x 90' perimeter I flagged. He left the bottom berm off so we could back the semi's and tri's up to dump, starting at the top and working down. The boss and I went out last weekend and picked up the non-woven geotextile fabric roll, 15' x 300' (kudos to Ryan Freeze for the geo-tex. lead). We cut it up into 7 pc x 43', laid out 2 pc at the top of the beach zone, and rolled up the other 5 and laid 'em to the side.

We brought in 160 tons of builder's sand...nice stuff. Just before the last load, John built up the bottom berm with the scraper; I told him to double it's height and width. Then the last load of sand. As Ewest noted and promoted in one of the beach threads, it's like a sandbox with elevated sides. We poured a min of 8" thick but it ran to 10" in some areas.


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Then, today, I hooked up the trailer one mo' time and headed for the pipe manufacturer. Yep, settled on 18" for the principal spillway; one pipe. Heck, let's go for some efficiency with the gas money...throw the PVC tree stumps in the back of the PU, too.

When I got there, John had already cut thru the top of the dam and set elevation for the first 20' of the run. Then, the balance is down-hill following the terrain.

Oooo boy...and I got to run the kangaroo on steroids. We layered in crumbs of the clay spoil and I got to wrestle one more cage-match with the jumpin' jack plate compactor. Anyway, she be done. One hooded inlet is on the drawing board, and that should do it.

nice pics once again,
awesome beach, nice spillway engineering....i would be inclinced to place rip rap protection around intake, would help to minimize any erosion and protect exposed portion of pipe.

not knowing really anything about precip, watershed, and max flows in your area, that "little" pipe would be overwhelmed in my canyon. our max flows come close to filling a 20 ft wide , 4 ft high concrete spillway.

looks like you'll have a nice calm water body year round, as opposed to our violent water catching puddle. if i put a beach in it wouldnt survive past one storm.

Remember Brettski has a watershed with lots of forest (maybe almost all). The (immediate) runoff from well established woods is just a fraction of what grassland runoff would be. And grassland runoff is in turn slower than cropland runoff.

Theo's got it mostly right. First of all, I am only dealing with about 60 ac of drainage. Most of if filters thru timber, though there is run-off from row-crops that is carried in thru 2 gentle draws thru the timber. The only undetermined volume is an 8" tile that brings in about 15 of 60 acres...I have yet to see it in action during significant rain.
It is safe to think that it may take a couple of years for this hole to fill up.

Theo, just pondering, doesnt water velocity increase dramatically going from large container to small container....still could get erosion around entrance to intake? just a thought. i have zero experience with that type of intake/spillway on pond, so maybe it would be total overkill to rock it in.....and its just my rocky inclinations?

Correct.

WRT guarding the overflow inlet: That's one place you know there's going to be water flow that may cause erosion. Depending on how often it overflows, good vegetaion could be enough, or it might require large (head-sized, by my way of thinking) rock. My drain entrance is a concrete box.

As Brettski indicatess, he probably has a little time to finalize his overflow entrance design before it gets used. Given his track record, I expect something attractive and adequately (or overly) defensive.

Well, last night I got my progress update from John, my dirt-guy...rain and slop; maybe tomorrow.
It did give me a chance to address the potential of erosion at the spillway. He wants me to install a hood at the inlet...an anti-vortex baffle. This is an easy one and shall be done. Past this, though, he sees no need for anything more than good vegetation establishment at the inlet side. There will be minimal wash of the embankment. This, and I have a less-than-ideal drainage volume; it is a non-issue. The other end, tho, is a different story.
This makes good sense to me, and I have to relent to his wisdom of years constructing many ponds. Yes, indeed, there will be volume water passage funneled into a small zone, but it will be moving in from within the pond. I don't see the physics of high volume rushing along the shoreline, sweeping it away. I see the volume coming from, well, the volume out it front. In my mind, I think about watching the exact scenario with a culvert or creek underpass of a road when it is handling high volume water passage. The front side is taking huge volume and the sticks and floating junk are collecting on either side in calmer pools. The only potential of the immediate shoreline washing would be if a whirlpool was created; this is mitigated with the baffle he recommends.

Your dirt guy is right on Brettski. The anti-vortex baffle will also help load the pipe with the decreased air intake. The other thing we do is drill holes in the ribs of the ads pipe that will have water contact. This will really help it from trying to push out or bow. Pond and Dam look great, hopefully it won't be long before you can start enjoying it.

EXCAVATION DONE!
I've said it before...I'll say it again. When we embarked on this journey, all we were looking for was a nice 3 or 4 acre hole with water that we could build a little cabin next to. Just look at what you guys did...shame on you! As my freight train was running outta control, my PB comrades continued to load the coal. I'm thinkin' about re-naming the Liberty Nature Preserve as the Silver Streak Ranch. The happy ending, albeit with empty pockets, is that when we got off at the station and looked back, the train we crafted during this ride has exceeded my wildest hopes, visions and dreams. Dining car, Club Car, Vista car, the works. It is, indeed, an awesome spectacle in my little world. I am very good with vision; X-ray spec's could not have prepared me for these results.
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These pic's are very similar to previous, only now they are complete in detail. To start, it might be easier to understand with another look at the aerial plan.

The dotted line is the driveway constructed last Summer. The light green lines are now completed as roadways and become dotted lines, also. The building site is about 1/2 Ac. The knoll is 1/4 Ac; the sand beach is the brown square within.
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This pic is from the building pad, looking to the dam. My sedan is parked on top of the dam 700 feet away. The completed 3600 sq ft sand beach is visible to the right, tucked up on a knoll that is notched into the woods. To the far right of frame the shallower wetland zone begins. The trenches, ditches, holes, and mounds are more visually prominent due to angle of the sun. Norm's ditch and Sunil's mound are visible, right of frame, between the beach and the water pocket. The wide, flat hump shooting directly away at center is 7 - 8 feet deep at normal pool. The balance of most of the deeper areas is around 12' with the 2 monster holes up front at around 19'-21'. The cuts, ditches, mounds, etc vary between 12' and 7'.

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It's kinda funny when I look back and consider something Bob Lusk told me when I first hit this forum last Fall. Now I understand. As cooperative, knowledgeable, honest, and a team player that my dirt-guy was, John had difficulty with boogerin' up the bottom. It didn't sit right. Seeing the exquisite quality of his final product helps me to understand. All the stuff above the bottom is his work. All the stuff at the bottom is the result of me winning at arm-wrestling.
(a look from the road as we near the the knoll; the same road runs across the dam at right, behind a point of Walnut and Cherry trees at the opposite side, and continues off to the left back to the launch and building site)

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...another simlar view; the estimate of soil moved in this entire area is 20K yds.

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This shot is taken from the knoll, looking across the beach and toward the building site in the distance.

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...a telephoto shot from the perimeter road, looking across to the knoll and the beach area.

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and, finally, a set of pics as we negotiate the last couple hundred feet of driveway on the way to the building site. The 2000 ft drive begins as 600 ft of meadow, then immersed into a wall of dense timber for the last 1400 ft. There is no clue or inkling what may be back there. (taken on an overcast day...sorry)

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...but, no rest for the wicked. The water clock is now ticking as I prepare to pour a concrete boat launch and the required piers to support 2 docks. Oh yeah, and a bunch of fish structure has to be placed.

Brettski,

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!

It looks amazing. Thank you for the updats and sharing your pictures.

One thing I missed somewhere was teh trench. What does it accomplish? Why did you put it in? Where was the discusion on it?

Thanks,
Eddie

I don't think the whole thing could be much prettier. What a work of art.

I can't wait to see the pictures when it's full of water!

It's going to be a beauty, my friend. Congrats! Can't wait to see it full of nice green water and some big'uns being held up for the camera.

Thank ya, Gent's.
Eddie...Norm's ditch and Sunil's mound are detailed a little more in the Bottomscaping thread.
I'm working with my NRCS agent and a local farmer to seed and develop the new green space that has been developed. I fully intend to utilize the W.H.I.P. program this coming Spring, but obviously cannot wait to protect erosion at the dam and many other surfaces througout the site. The goal is low maint. and high wildlife.

Well, on to the next project; the concrete work for 2 docks and a boat launch.
Jeesh, another reflection on the work that concrete guys do...truly more new-found respect! We have formed up the first pour of the launch. The rebar is laid within the forms, but not yet tied and put up on the bar chairs.

We have drilled ten 12" dia holes for the concrete piers that will support the dock that borders the launch for 44 feet with a 14" x 16" covered deck at the end. We have also installed small rebar cages within the concrete pier forms for added stability.

There another 8 more of these holes at the beach area for a smaller 20' x 10' "L" shaped dock. The 20' section runs along the edge of the sand beach (recommended by Ewest), and the 10' "L" section turns away at 90 degrees into a quick drop-off that will put it into 6-7 ft of water...a great place to temporarily tie up the Liberty Ferry.
Oh yeah...we aren't hurtin' for rain, either. The banks are runnin' little erosion channels and the rye is just startin' to sprout. Nothing too severe and we really got a gully washer a couple of days ago. The 1 acre area in front of the dam has about 4-5 feet of water. We gotta hustle up this concrete work and shift to the tire pyramids and PVC tree structures. The race with Mother Nature is on.
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**NOTE**
The "boat launch and dock construction" phase has been moved to this New Thread

Brettski,

That's a neat looking auger. Haven't used one like that but I bet it works great. I wonder if it is kind of tricky lifting back up out of the hole when down in heavy clay? Maybe it has a reverse?

You mentioned your race with Mother Nature and made me wonder if you have a need for ag. lime and if you have already applied that? I don't recall from past posts if you have the need, but if you need it and haven't applied it yet, that's another item in the race.

Brettski :

Do those things that require the lake to be down first , piers , lime , sand , rip-rap, dirt work etc. Then categorize the fish structure items and then lets go over them. You can do most of the fish structure (other than bottom scaping ) from the Liberty Ferry if needed. I can walk you through that and I know many others here have good info and experience to add also.

Uh-oh...lime, you say? For all the times I have read about it on the forum, it didn't even click with me that I, too, might have a P-h problem...?
So, what do I do next? I have absolutely nothing to this regard. I do have good dialogue and cooperation with my NRCS agent and office. Do I lean on him for testing? What is the quickest, down n' dirty way to test and resolve?
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Meadowlark,
Oyyy! My whole body is one big ache (don't even go there, Theo ) This one is called a Ground Hog. It is a 5.5 HP Honda on a slip clutch. The drive arm is a shaft on a U-joint to the gear driven head. No, it doesn't have a reverse...wish it did! I once used a very similar unit that was powered with a hydraulic pump at the engine and hoses to a hydraulic motor at the drive head. That one worked great and DID have a reverse; a priceless option. They are cumbersome on anything that is not flat. The worst part is, you guessed it, pulling it outta the hole. Then, if you have to add the 12" extension (another cumbersome time waster) to get past 36" deep, try pulling that mass directly up to exit the hole! I'm 6'-2" sumthin and I have to "clean and jerk" the handle to the top of my head to clear the hole. It's like Bow-flex in the dirt. Oh yeah, and hit a rock bigger than about 4" dia...or better yet, a root over 1" dia...double-Oyyy! All compounded by using a 12" dia drill into clay. Anyway, Donna-ski and I spent 11 hours working at the site on Sunday with a 30 min lunch break. I hope she keeps me.

i owned a two-man ground hog in my younger days, similar engine......no more......from here on out its a small bobcat or kubota (rental) w/ posthole digger if i have a lot of holes, and a digging bar and posthole digger if just a couple holes. its very very very easy to tweak the back w/ those ground hogs.....glad to hear you are still ambulatory.

if all yer heavy equipment guys are off site, perhaps its better (easier?, cheaper?) to wait and let pond fill, stabilize, monitor water chemistry (pH meters are relatively cheap), then add ag lime to water if needed?......lime experts?

Easier now to get spreader truck from Co-Op to spread lime now , if needed. They can back up to the pond in say about 6 places and turn on the spreader or if dry drive around pond bottom with spreaders on. It will wash to the deeper depth as it fills. Much easier than with a boat or barge later.

Go to the pond and get about 6 handfuls of dirt from the pond bottom from 6 different spots and put them in a plastic bag. Get dry dirt if possible.

Call your NRCS guy and ask him if he has made lime requirements for ponds or crops in your area. Is the area dirt acid.

Indiana
A&L Great Lakes Laboratories, Inc
3505 Conestoga Dr., Ft. Wayne, IN 46808
(260) 483-4759
www.algreatlakes.com
Soil test cost: $15.
Includes: Organic matter, available P, exchangeable K, Mg, Ca, soil pH, buffer pH and fertilizer recommendations.
To submit sample: Send in zip-lock bag to above address.
Common regional problems: High pH and low K.

http://www.agr.state.il.us/programs/summaryprogsvcs.html

http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/soiltest/

Thank you, oh great Link-master.
What are the nominal values that I am looking for?

Great question !! I can tell you a little about alkalinity in ponds and give some great links but as I told Russ in the link below, I don't know how to make the jump from dirt measurements to water. I would be interested to know. Our Extension service runs the tests on dirt and you tell them for pond mgt. and they give the breakdown and recommendations. Minimum total alkalinity in pond water is 20 ppm ( mg/L) but much higher is better as the optimum for LMB is 200 ppm for example.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001081;p=5#000072


Liming Ponds for Aquaculture

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/13092343-4100fs.pdf


Interactions of pH, Carbon Dioxide,
Alkalinity and Hardness in Fish Ponds

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/13092343-464fs.pdf

Brettski,

Yeah, my back started aching when I saw those pictures. I can imagine how yours must have felt. Without a reverse, that looks like a very tough operation.

Regarding the need for ag. lime. I'll give you my approach and experience....which, as you know isn't necessarily applicable outside my area. First, soil sample will tell you roughly how much, if any, ag. lime is needed per acre. As related to lime, I use the same recommendations that are needed for growing pasture/hay same as for the ponds....this does not apply to fertilizer, but for lime. In my area 4-5 tons per acre is standard...don't even need a soil test here.

I apply that amount to the pond under construction. I always use spreader trucks and the spread cost runs $30 to $40 per ton. After the pond fills and stabilizes somewhat I do my own water test...check for ph, alkalinity, and hardness. Normally the lime operation that was done before pond filling will have everything in a good range. Ph just over 7 (7.4 is the ph of fish blood which is ideal to match and a good ph range is 6.5 to 9), and alkalinity and hardness around 100 and close to the same in absolute value(needs to be above 20 mg/l and under 200 mg/l). If more lime is needed, which it usually isn't for me, I then add as needed according to 50 pound bags.

Anyone farming in your local area can give you a pretty good idea of wether or not ag. lime is needed. However, a good soil test is the best way I know of. If you need it, now is the time to apply. It should last you at least 5 years...or it does in my case. When I need it again, I just repeat the process by spreading in the watershed area of pond and directly to the pond itself. Works for me!

That's my 2 cents on lime...and save that back in the future for all those big fish you are going to pull from your new lake!

Eric/Brettski,

In reference to your comment about soil samples vs. water samples, I found a local lab that does pond water analysis. Currently, I'm working on a small stone dam for the BG pond. Once this is completed, my next project will be the water analysis. I will update my BG thread once I receive the lab results.

Brettski,

Hats off to you my friend. What a great read your pond project has been!! Thanks for posting your progress.