Pond Boss
Posted By: NEfish Pond banks - 05/02/06 08:02 PM
Hello everyone, this is my first forum discussion on pond boss and I have found some good information from other discussions but I need a little more if anyone has some for me. Myself and a friend are renovating a pond and are wondering the best solution (inexpensive, low-labor) to prevent bank erosion. There is planned to be a rock covered dam on the south side of the 2 acre pond and 2 fingers that stretch north and west. As we get ready to start dozing we are wondering if we should have a sharp ledge or graduate slope. We know that we need to have a good planting of grass to help but what other things can we do to prevent the north winds from eroding and filling in the pond. From anyone’s experiences we would like to know what you think. Thanks.
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: Pond banks - 05/03/06 05:31 AM
I had pretty steep banks around the pond, and after renovation and finish grading, used a local hydroseeder. He cost me ~!2k but he did a lot more than just around my 1 acre pond, and I'm glad I did it. Used a "california" erosion mix of seed containing native grasses and wildflowers. Both perennial and annual. Some of the ryes and fescues do really good. Had record rains this winter and it held up good. Dont know if you got NE native mixes, some prarie mix...consult locals.

One concern I had was the fertilizer in the hydroseed, and subsequent run-off to pond, but I dont think it had much impact, maybe helped out some phytoplankton......

Our situations are undoubtedly different, just my 2 pennies.

Have posted pics at photobucket.com, username jdsmith2, password pond101....please log me out when done. There's one pic taken shortly after the seeding. The hydroseed work was done in Nov.05, and you can see just how well it all took in all the green pics taken this May.

Oh, and Russ if you catch this post, I added some pics in the snow, very cool (so to speak), photo album is now 2 pages for complete collection.
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: Pond banks - 05/03/06 05:39 AM
Oh, i forgot to add that on one side of pond we dozed a narrow road (ledge), just above high water, tilted slightly back into hillside along pond edge. Kind of funnels the above slope drainage back towards upper end of pond and works good. Other side of pond is bedrock. Its steep but not going anywhere, again, our situations are different. BTW, welcome to PB, I am new too and just glad to have a few folks to yak at.

Dave
Posted By: Russ Re: Pond banks - 05/03/06 11:23 AM
Dave,

From the first set of photos, it looked like you cut a terrace on one of your hillsides. I was wondering if that was to reduce erosion or facilitate access to the pond. Thanks for the explanation.
Posted By: NEfish Re: Pond banks - 05/03/06 04:45 PM
Thanks for the input Dave. We will seed broam and other native prairie grasses but Im kind of wondering about the slope that is going to be underwater. Our soil here is quite erodable and I don't know if it would help to keep the banks steep underwater or shallow for a good distance.
Posted By: Brettski Re: Pond banks - 05/03/06 05:28 PM
 Quote:
Our soil here is quite erodable and I don't know if it would help to keep the banks steep underwater or shallow for a good distance
NEfish,
this link may help:
bottomscaping link
Posted By: bobad Re: Pond banks - 05/03/06 05:40 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by NEfish:
Thanks for the input Dave. We will seed broam and other native prairie grasses but Im kind of wondering about the slope that is going to be underwater. Our soil here is quite erodable and I don't know if it would help to keep the banks steep underwater or shallow for a good distance.
NEFish, the most stable banks I have seen were centipede grass. It vines down to the water line, and helps absorb some of the higher waves. Plant bermudagrass first for fast coverage and to help bind th esoil. Sahara is a great cultivar, but any low growing turf type seeds will do. (as opposed to the taller hay type cultivars.)

If your banks are shallow, you will eventually get lots of water weeds (for better or worse!) to help buffer the wave action.
Posted By: NEfish Re: Pond banks - 05/03/06 06:06 PM
Awsome info on the bottomsraping link Brettski, thanks a lot. The drawing of the pond and the shelf idea for bluegill and bass spawning is an exellent idea for my pond and I am going to look in to the centipede grass some more.
Thanks bobad and Brettski.
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: Pond banks - 05/04/06 01:43 AM
I opted for vertical (underwater) banks, which I could get away with because of bedrock. Topography of pond bottom we made to include original creek channel notched way down, on each side of which are broad sloping shelfs extending back up to base of vertical banks.

In the shelfs we excavated a number of circular craters and rimmed them with circular rock piles, making the relative elevation change as much as 10 feet around inside of craters. I just kind of saw them in a dream one night before excavating and dozing the next day.

I hope the fish like em,
yeah and if a neighborhood kid falls in or decides to have a trespassing dip, most of been told they have to be able to make the spillway before the pirana catch up to them:)

Dream away NEfish
Posted By: switch Re: Pond banks - 05/04/06 02:15 PM
We do not stock pirana around here - the alligators eat them.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Pond banks - 05/08/06 12:29 PM
After looking at your sight yesterday, Brettski's 'lip' idea seems perfect, and probably the most affordable way to do it. Make sure you guys take pictures as this project comes along. In fact, I would start a new thread once it gets going so we can follow the progress.

Of course, I can drive 5 miles to see it, but I am sure everyone else will want to see. \:D
Posted By: NEfish Re: Pond banks - 05/09/06 03:35 PM
Hey NEDOC, Construction started yesterday (5/8/06). "John and the boys" must not be very busy. We will have to get out there soon and get some pics to post for sure.
Posted By: Norm Kopecky Re: Pond banks - 05/10/06 12:48 AM
NEfish, congratulations on your lake! We do get significant wind erosion on our lake and finally have had to "armor" the whole thing with concrete blocks.

One other thing, talk to more people about grasses. Smooth brome is definitely NOT native and is extremely invasive. This means that without a lot of management, most native species can't live with it. It is also almost worthless for any kind of wildlife habitat. Also, centipede grass most likely won't grow as far north as you are. In general, there really are huge regional differences in what plants will live where.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Pond banks - 05/10/06 01:39 AM
NEFish,

Are you sure your north wind is your worst? Here in the midwest our prevailing wind of west is our strongest after a cold front goes through. I got $200.00 worth of riprap size limestone and that took care of that problem. Set it in place with a small frontloader.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Pond banks - 05/10/06 12:22 PM
NEfish, had a couple beers with John. He thinks it is going to take a long time. The core trench is going to be diffucult. Things are very 'soupy' along the dam face. He was talking about doing the core trench in 15yd segments to make sure he gets it packed well. This is going to be cool. When you guys get back this way, give me a call, I would love to go out there and check it out.

He is also worried about the tap roots on the stumps causing some leakage.
Posted By: NEfish Re: Pond banks - 05/10/06 03:32 PM
Will do NEDOC, sounds like Big John wants to take his time, doesn’t sound like Big John to me.
Cecil, as far as bank stabilization your right about the prevailing wind but here our strongest come out of the north west and I should have specified that the dam is facing NNW so I think we have to do a lot of dam covering. We have a good deal of cement and limestone locally here that I think we can get our hands on so we don't have to pay the huge freight charge.

As far as all the other banks broam, canary grass, and hopefully cattails will fill in where cedar trees haven’t already. And about this we already have a notched bank from the old pond and the cedars roots are sticking out of the banks. The pond is now protected from wind a little on the sides but what does that do to the banks as far as stabilization. Would we be better off leaving the trees or taking them down?

Does anyone out there have any experience with canary grass? We know it is going to grow here and it will take a lot of work to keep it down but maybe it is a good thing to have around in some cases??? As NEDOC says ‘like a sponge’ I need information. Thanks
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: Pond banks - 05/10/06 03:47 PM
NEfish,

I've got reed canary grass on my farm, but it hasn't colonized my pond shoreline. The canary grass is extremely dense, but tends to stay near the creek banks. Are you ever on the Nebraska Game and Parks forum? If so, the hunting side would be a possible place to ask if canary grass has an impact in respect to wetland/migratory ducks. Let us know what you find out.

Bruce
Posted By: Shorty Re: Pond banks - 05/10/06 04:12 PM
 Quote:
if canary grass has an impact in respect to wetland/migratory ducks
The wetland experts heavily frown on reed canary grass in wetlands, especially in Clay Co. As a side note, horses love to eat reed canary grass early in the year, it is one of the first things to green up and a few horses will do a decent job of keeping the reed carnary grass under control without chemically spraying for it in a wetland. It was one of the things my little brother and his wife "taught" the wetland experts in Clay Co. a few years ago. ;\)

As a pheasant hunter though I prefered having the canary grass in his wetland, it was the most likely type of vegetation that my pointers would lock a pheasant down in. With the canary grass gone the "ditch parrots" seem to run like crazy now and are much harder for my dogs to get those "ditch parrots" locked down.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Pond banks - 05/10/06 05:34 PM
NEfish, the wetland experts will also frown upon having cattails in your area, I'm guessing a number of pond miesters on here will frown on it too as cattails have a tendency to fill in a pond over time. A good person to talk to in your area would be Bill Whitney with the Prairie Plains Insitute, he could probably make some suggestions on native plants to your area that would be less invasive and still help control shoreline erosion, native plants would probably be a better attractor for waterfowl. I know Bill has been a big help to my little brother over the last several years. As side note I could check with my little brother about getting some seed stock from his wetland to plant around your new pond. He lives 12-15 miles south of Sutton and Nedoc also knows my bothers wife. ;\)
Posted By: NEfish Re: Pond banks - 05/10/06 05:50 PM
Thanks a lot Shorty, I'll give NEDOC a call and see what we can think up. We need native vegetation that will be great for fish and won't take over. Waterfowl isn't really a aspect of interest(plenty of other places we can view/hunt them around here.)

[QUOTE] [/As a pheasant hunter though I prefered having the canary grass in his wetland, it was the most likely type of vegetation that my pointers would lock a pheasant down in.]

The canary grass is something that I think we want around the pond for pheasants and if it keeps waterfowl away we don't care, but then again we don't want it to take over.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Pond banks - 05/10/06 07:02 PM
Ha, I was going to tell you that you need to talk to SHORTY, because he knows his aquatic vegetation. \:D

My big pond is a prime example of what you get with canary grass. Only difference would be, yours shouldn't fluctuate in water level as much as mine because it can be controlled with the well. I notice there is already canary grass growing at Casey's site, so if you leave it alone I would be willing to bet that is what you get along the shoreline. It will probably be tough to avoid cattails in our area as well, as they are everywhere. The best way to avoid that is probably to design the depths of the pond accordingly. Personally, I want as many cattails as possible in my big pond at this time d/t water quality issues.

My canary grass holds winter pheasants but not enough to make it a determining factor for you.

When I seine my big pond, maybe we can talk Bruce and SHORTY into coming down and having a little SC Nebraska Pond Boss Meeting and have them look at the site and give more ideas.

Maybe if they get that pond done soon enough you can honeymoon there. \:D ;\)
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: Pond banks - 05/10/06 07:07 PM
I'll come into town for sure.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Pond banks - 05/10/06 07:38 PM
Good, I was looking for cheap labor and someone who knows how to run a seine. \:D I will provide the Diet Mountain Dew.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Pond banks - 05/10/06 08:56 PM
All-you-can-drink Diet Dew? I may come myself.
Posted By: Norm Kopecky Re: Pond banks - 05/11/06 12:17 AM
NEfish, I think Shorty is right, talk to Bill Whiney at Aurora. About the only reason pheasants would be in reed canary grass is because everything else is so much worse. NE GFP has done extensive work on these grasses. The best analogy I can think of on brome and reed canary is someone that "knows it all" advising you to put green sunfish, bullheads and northern pike in your lake. If you think that makes sense, then brome and reed canary will work just fine for you.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Pond banks - 05/11/06 11:58 AM
Norm, I think the better question here is 'How do we avoid canary grass?'. There is already canary grass (and cattails) at the site and you know how fast that spreads. I am afraid it would be very costly to try to establish anything else. If there is a cheap way to control canary grass and get something else established I NEED to know about it, because my shoreline is a solid mat of canary grass. hahaha

Norm, Are you going to be down this way anytime soon again?
Posted By: Shorty Re: Pond banks - 05/11/06 01:04 PM
Nedoc, are sure those are cattails and not some sort of native bullrush that is prevelant in your area? From a short distance they look very similar. The bullrush plants at my brothers wetland do look like cattails from a short distance but do not grow in as deep in the water as the common cattails I have seen.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Pond banks - 05/11/06 01:54 PM
I thought they were typha angustifolia (narrow leaf cattail) but I didn't look very closely. And I'm not sure I would know the difference anyway this early in the year. That is all the more reason you need to come visit your brother. \:D We need some expert vegetative advice.

It sure would be nice if it was bullrush.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Pond banks - 05/11/06 02:14 PM
 Quote:
We need some expert vegetative advice
See the Bill Whitney suggestion, he knows way more than I ever will about wetlands vegetation. ;\) Another good person to talk with would be Eric Volden. ;\)
Posted By: Norm Kopecky Re: Pond banks - 05/11/06 02:43 PM
NEDOC, the short answer is no, there really isn't a good, easy way to get rid of reed canary grass. It is incredibly invasive as you know. Ask Bill Whitney at 402-694-5535. He is probably the formost expert in the Midwest on native prairie management and restoration.

The best way I've found to control it is to get prairie cordgrass (Spartina pectinata) in there first. Cordgrass is established by plugs.

NebraskaLand magazine had about a 20 page article about managing CRP land for waterfowl and upland game birds. They found that they could have a whole quarter (160 acres) of brome that produced NOTHING! Bruce Condello is doing an excellent job of taking a pure brome pasture and slowly managing it back to native species.

I grew up on a farm by Bellwood. The rainwater basin reaches its NE corner at the airport just south of David City. I've always love that type of landscape.

It pleases me greatly to see that so many Nebraskans (as well as people in other areas) care about our total native environment. I have quite a bit of experience in this area and could give you some specific ideas.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Pond banks - 05/11/06 02:56 PM
Norm, thanks for that. I have a good friend of mine that used to work with Bill. The friend actually rented a house of mine in Aurora that NEfish's dad sold me (small, small world). I will try to get a hold of Bill to see how I can manage some of my upland areas. Mine are very similar to Bruce's, in that they are solid cool season (mostly brome) grasses. I was going to begin restoring this June. I may have to contact Bill before I make any mistakes. I was going to manage mine with mowing much like Bruce, but I may see what Bill thinks. I am only 25 miles from Aurora so maybe he can come and take a look.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Pond banks - 05/11/06 03:07 PM
Nedoc, when you talk to Bill mention to him that you can gather some seed stock from the Brinkerhoff wetland south of Sutton. ;\)
Posted By: Norm Kopecky Re: Pond banks - 05/11/06 03:19 PM
NEDOC, it is a small world.

This is kind of for anyone that is interested in restoring a pasture back to native prairie health. Almost all of our invasive foreign grass are "cool season". That means they grow in the cool moist spring and fall. Most of our native grasses are "warm season". They grow in the hot summer.

There are three major cool season invasive grasses. Brome, Kentucky bluegrass and fescues. We have to attack them when they are growing and the warm season plants are not.

We can spray with Round-up in the early spring when these grasses are growing but the warm season plants aren't.

We can mow the area in the mid spring to set the cool season grasses back and release competition for the warm seasons.

We can burn the area in June (in the Upper Midwest) to set back the cool seasons.

We can use cattle to graze the area very hard in the spring to set back the cool seasons. In Oklahoma, many ranchers buy calves in the fall, run them all winter on their pastures and sell them in late spring/early summer. Their pastures are in great shape compared to ranchers that have regular cow/calf operations. Bill Whitney has used this technique very successfully with Nebraska pastures.

The very best technique is to use all of these forms of management as needed.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Pond banks - 05/11/06 03:56 PM
Thanks for that Norm. Pheasants Forever's mag usually does a great rundown on some of these techniques for restoring warm seasons. One question I have is since I have a near homogenous stand of cool seasons, would it help to mow/interseed warm seasons or can I just mow it at the end of June (which is what Bruce does) and assume the warm season grasses will fill in. I was planning on doing a few test plots this spring and summer to see which method worked the best, but I have no interest in any grazing by cattle.

What you have listed is very consistent with everything I have ascertained from others. I think the easiest method for me is mowing as short as I can at the end of June each year.

Oddly, I have found several pheasant nests in my brome stands this year (already). I have not found any the prior 4 years.

SHORTY, thanks for the offer. I will mention that to him.
Posted By: Brettski Re: Pond banks - 05/11/06 05:56 PM
Norm,
I plan on (finally) pursuing the WHIP program this coming Spring of 2006. There will be strategic areas of WWNG. The State biologist and my NRCS agent walked the property with me and we laid out preliminary plans.
The question: did I hear them say something like "you can mow a path thru the WWNG once or twice a year, alternating the area that is cut, but I have to wait until (June or July?) the nestlings are hatched and fledged before the first mowing"?
Posted By: Norm Kopecky Re: Pond banks - 05/12/06 03:54 PM
Brettski, as far as regulations are concerned, take the word of your local officials. They're the ones that will enforce the regulations and you want to work with them, not against them.

NEDOC, many of the changes in the various CRP programs have come from research done by NE GFP, especially at the Norfork office. For upland game birds, they found that very heavy disking was the most cost effective management tool by far.

I'm impatient, so here's what I would do. I would burn the brome off in early winter or very first thing in the spring to get rid of the thatch. Then, just as soon as the cool season grass started growing again, I would hit it hard with Round-Up. This would really set the brome back but you will still have lots of seed left in the ground. If you have any warm season grasses or seed left, you will see it that fall.

More than grasses, it's the forbs that are important to raise young chicks. Illinois bundleflower is so good that there really isn't a close second. Second tier forbs are annual sunflowers, showy partridge pea, Maximillian sunflowers and false sunflowers. Then comes a whole host of wildflowers that are pretty and attract insects for the chicks to eat.

Bill Whitney (with others) wrote a book about restoring native prairie that I think you would love.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Pond banks - 05/12/06 04:16 PM
NEfish talked to Bill yesterday and got some good info. I was going to call Bill today but don't have enough time b/w patients to have a good conversation so I may wait til my day off and call than. Thanks so much for the info. I didn't know the info about the Illinois bundleflower, VERY interesting.
Posted By: NEfish Re: Pond banks - 05/12/06 07:05 PM
Yes I did talk to Bill and he said the same thing Norm did. The forbs and native warm season grasses around the pond will provide the best upland game bird production as well as bank stabilization and erosion prevention.

He also recommended that we remove all the over-hanging cedars and ash trees that surround a lot of the pond. Even though they provide a wind break they prevent the grasses from growing and the root systems of the trees does not prevent erosion. He told me that the grasses and forbes will work the best and the trees will just erode and fall in.

I had Casey, the guy Im working with, take some pictures of the progress and hopefully will have them posted soon. He told me last night that the construction is moving faster than he expected and there was a crew of 4-5 guys with a lot of machinery working away yesterday. This might get done a little quicker than we anticipated. \:D
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Pond banks - 05/12/06 09:27 PM
Casey needs to register and get in this conversation.

I talked to John (the contractor) at noon and he was complaining about how slow it was going. hahaha He said they hit some gravel when digging the core trench. Uh Oh!

Can't wait for the pictures.
Posted By: Postrock Re: Pond banks - 05/14/06 03:50 AM
I have had success in north central Kansas with buffalo grass.- It is a very dense extremely short grass that will spread itself after you get it started- i just had a soil conservation look at my pond- have a south facing dam that catches a lot of wave action. need some dam repair. We will relocate the discharge point of the spillway eventually and will be using buffalo grass for the ground cover.
Posted By: NEfish Re: Pond banks - 05/15/06 04:32 PM
Bad news, the gravel turned into water! I think they might be hitting the water table. The only thing I can think of is to bring in a lot of clay and not make the pond as deep. Any suggestions??
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Pond banks - 05/16/06 01:31 AM
I think you are on the right track. Back off and cover the gravel with 2 or 3 ft. of well packed clay. I mean real well packed.
Posted By: NEfish Re: Pond banks - 05/16/06 05:28 PM
They hit water 6 ft. down from where the existing pond bottom was. With the packed clay I think we will be ok with a depth of 12 ft. at the deepest place.
Posted By: basscrack Re: Pond banks - 05/18/06 11:49 PM
Hello everyone, I am working with NEFish on the pond project that this topic got started on.

I was back last weekend (13th 14th), the test hole (30'x 20') filled with about an inch of water. I don't think it would be wise or economical to go much deeper anyway. Will the 12' be sufficient to winter the fish? What minimum dimmensions of this deep area could I get away with? (I would estimate the pond will be about 6 surface acres.)

PS I'll try to get my pics up but they are not real great
Thanks
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Pond banks - 05/19/06 01:27 PM
12' should be fine to winter fish. I am sure you will get better answers than mine, but my 20 acre pond isn't much deeper and it seems fine with wintering fish. The concern in your case might be making sure that it is full and actually 8'+ deep going into winter. It will be nice if you guys can use a well to keep it full, esp. since we are in a drought and you may have a tough time getting enough runoff anyway.

You may want to go through a winter and make sure it holds before putting too much $ into stocking.
Posted By: basscrack Re: Pond banks - 05/19/06 04:59 PM
Sounds good, thanks for the advice NEDOC, I will be back Saturday if you wanna check out the progress. John said they had the core trench in, and will have to wait for the pipe (atleast another week.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Pond banks - 05/19/06 06:48 PM
I have been talking to John, nearly daily about the progress. His biggest concern seems to be having enough runoff to fill it and/or keep it full. You should be able to talk to someone at the NRCS office (I think her name is Janet) that would tell you the total acres of runoff you have available and the amount you need per acre foot to keep it full. Kurt should know who to talk to. (John should also)
© Pond Boss Forum