Wanted some feed back. I have been wanting to build a pond since I first saw my grandpas lake when i was 13 (im 32). I finally bought 40 acres in Des Arc Arkansas close to my grandpas (Keathley Pond). I met with a local dirt mover who is a close family friend. We proposed my best option is to run a 2000ft levy to catch the draw that runs through my property that will be 6ft tall. Its supposed to be any where from 12 to 15 acres. The spillway will be a 24 inch with two 36 inch over flows (better safe than sorry) being that I dont live in Arkansas. The spillway will dump into a creek that is on my land. The dirt mover said roughly 10 days at $200 an hour for the dirt pan at roughly 60-70 hrs, $100 an hour for the track hoe at 20 hours and $85 an hour for the dozer for 10 hours. Any advice?

Welcome.... You found a great site with alot of information. Having said that, use it to do ALOT of research. The more you do now, the more money it will save you in the long run, and the better the pond will turn out. Purchase the book advertised here, The Perfect Pond.

My first thought is that you said 'dirt guy', not pond builder. A lake this size you better have a good pond builder. The bigger the pond the bigger the headaches can be, and the cost to redo it. I know you said friend, but sometimes it is best to look outside of that, even for just a second opinion. The price (Around 17,00?)sounds cheap to me (but don't know much in that area) for 13 acre pond. There can be alot of hidden costs that you aren't seeing yet.

My ballpark rule of thumb....a turn-key pond professionally built is "about $10K per acre of pond...maybe a bit less".

Of course there are lots and lots of variables.

5 acre pond $40K-$50K

10 acre pond $75K-$100K

so B.D. if you can get a 12-15 acre pond built professionally for the price you've been quoted that would be pretty awesome!

keep us updated

I have seen his work on ponds in the area and its very good. He came highly recomended.This lake is mainly levy. He is going to pull the dirt from the top of my land with a double 18 yard dirt pan to build the levy.This particular part of Arkansas is almost all clay.The ground holds water almost all year.I have been able to watch my Grandpas pond hold water all year.

Good advice. He is a pond builder. I will get a couple more.

You'll need somebody you can really trust if you aren't able to be there the entire process.

What type of overflow/spillway? Of all the types i've seen, I like the siphon drain the best. It doesn't go thru the bottom of the dam. Seems like most ponds end up having troubles with their pipe years down the road. If it isn't at the bottom, you won't lose the whole pond fixing it.

Start planning out all your habitat, docks, spawning structure, etc. Its alot easier to place before the water is in. It takes a suprising amount of time/work to have that stuff ready to go. Does this dirt mover get into doing different things with the pond bottom like trenches, mounds, etc.

The prices are the going rate. Are you sure the 6 foot dam will provide the depth you want?

I'm also seeing a 2000 foot levy. I'm curious if it really is that long. Seems long to me, especially on 40 acres. My quick assesment would be that the levy will cover almost two sides of the perimeter of your entire property? Do you have enough watershed to keep a third of your property in water. I wonder about depth too. 6' high levy, does that mean the rest of the lake depth is shallower?

When I was getting qoutes, most told me the size was bigger than reality. I think they do this to make you feel like your getting more for your dollar. You can get an idea of size with google maps, using the planimeter (sp?).

Des Arc is near the heart of the rice and cotton fields with a VERY high water table so if runoff isn't enough, you have a water volume pumping capacity limited only by your desire to pay for the cost of electricity.

Make sure that he understands what a keyway is. If neither of you know, do a LOT of research.

Also pack the dirt with a sheepsfoot roller. A dozer does a poor job of packing soil. It should be sandy loam.

What is the soil mix? Sand doesn't pack and pure clay can crack when exposed to sunlight.

Buy the Perfect Pond book from Pond Boss. It answers questions that you won't know to ask until after the job is done.

Fixing a pond is a lot more expensive than doing it right the first time. And even then, problems can develop.

Here is a pic of the levy

Having trouble adding photo to thread. Its in the photo gallery.

Where the dam will sit is at 195' elevation. The top of my property is 200'. The dam will be 6' with 2' of freeboard. From grade we are going down 4' for a total of 8' deep.

Dave, the soil is Loring Silt Loam. there is a core trench proposed to be done.Bought the book and read it (excellent book by the way). He said when he was done I couldnt hammer a nail in the dirt.Im in the process of getting two more estimates.

I like the idea of multiple estimates but I have found a lot of dozer drivers that can clear land and cut grade. However, a lot of them are pretty poor at building a home for fish. This guy appears to know the biggie about preventing pond leaks under the dam.

Just got a quote for a CMP (corrugated metal pipe)for my spillway. 24" diameter, 48" riser,66' length, 16 guage galvanized pipe. $250.00 labor to weld the 90 degree anlge at $11.25 per foot =$1037.00. Does anyone know if aluminum would be better? I am sure it costs more. Contech said the galvanized pipe would last 100 years. I dont want my grandkids to have to be replacing it if I could do it with aluminum now.

I personally prefer PVC. And, I don't have much faith in 100 yr estimates.

It seems that most of the pipes that are talked about on this site that has problems are metal of some sort, and they haven't lasted 100 years. I personally would choose any option but that. Have you checked into the siphon drain system I mentioned? By your description of a 48" stand pipe, it sounds like the drain is at the bottom of the dam. Thats trouble if it ever has to be replaced and is more likely to seep.

I would prefer the pvc too. Does it sit at the top of the dam? and if it does do you run a 45 degree fitting and then another pipe running down your dam to prevent erosion? Other wise the water would run on the back side of the dam.

No I have not check it out. Dont know where or who sells it or the cost.

From the resources page.

http://www.ponddampiping.com/syphon1.html

There is also a old post of someone installing one in the archives... I also listed a link to that about a month ago in a post. If I find it again I will let you know.

I see by that drawing the outlet is 4' lower than the intake. I wonder if you have that abilty since you dam is only 6' high? Is the area that you are putting the pipe in a spot that can give you that drop? Perhaps others could relate their experience with their setup and how much is really needed. I still think its a good idea for the sake of not running the pipe thru the bottom of the dam. Yes, you would want a pipe running down the backside. You would want to talk to your builder about this. He may be against it for some reason. Worth mentioning though.

Make sure to have anti-seep collars on any pipes going thru the dam. We lost 7' of water in our pond in only one day due to a leak cause by a faulty collar! Try to have the pond's outlet at the end were the prevailing winds blow towards. This helps greatly to get rid of floating agae blooms and pollen on the water's surface when you get a good water flow from rain storms. You also might want to have a overflow pipe that has adjustable elevations in order to control your water levels at various times of the year. Some people do a winter draw down level in order to control underwater weeds.

Good idea. One of the pond builders was talking about the wind and outlet.

The anti seep collar is a pretty big deal regardless of what you choose.

Also, take a look at an emergency overflow for either a stopped up pipe(it can happen) or a 100 year flood. If possible, it should be over natural ground instead of packed dirt.

Got a quote from a different contractor @ $1.65 to $1.85 a cu yard. Calculations are 10,000 cu yards of dirt build the levy. As I get closer to doin the project I will talk about fish cover and will post pics of the project. We are planning on staying in a travel trailer during the whole process with my Wife and kids.....cant wait.

How do they know/measure cubic yards?

That is a cube 3x3 ft. That is a cheap price compared to this area. It must be pretty steep land. To dig a 13 acre pond here, it is in the millions of yards but it is flat. You would have a big pond for a very small price. Good luck.

I have a suggestion due to the issues raised so far. Call Mike Otto for a consult (http://www.ottosdirtservice.com , mikeotto@ottosdirtservice.com 1-800-882-3478 ). There are things you have not even thought about. Making larger water bodies /lakes is a once in 4 generations event. That is how far out you should be thinking - creatively - about what you want. Mike can also look over bids to help you be sure they are what you think. BTW Mike and Bob wrote the book.

Here's some more tips. Projections suggest the dirt moving will cost something less than $20,000. Knowing that area, I believe it. Advice/tip #1: Budget $25,000 for building the dam. There are almost always "unknowns" when a bulldozer starts moving dirt. Expect it, even in areas of such good soil as what you have.
Tip #2: As soon as you can, with a laser level/transit, whatever you can get, shoot and flag the water line all the way around the lake site.
Tip #3: Visualize the lake as a horizontal plane and judge its configuration, shape and the amount of shallow water you have. Shallow water = lots of maintenance issues. If you have more than 5% of the periphery that will be less than 3 feet deep, you'll have aquatic plant issues that will be frustrating. Now is the time to identify that and do something about it. (Unless aquatic plants for waterfowl is part of the plan...if it is, plan for it now.)
Tip #4: Keep in mind that your earthmover is focused on his primary job...building a structure that is engineered and designed to impound water, retain water and release excess water in an orderly fashion. In other words, he's in charge of building a dam and spillway sufficient to manage water. Inside that dam will be a living, breathing entity that we be your "lake". That's a totally different mission.
Tip #5: Knowing that you have two missions, building a dam and building a lake, focus time and energy designing habitat based on your goals. If you don't several years down the road you'l wish you did. If you need help designing that habitat, ask those who know...do that during this planning phase. If your mission is to create a bass lake, learn all you can about bass habitat and what the forage fish need to support the bass, too. Create habitat for ALL species you wish to manage or attract.
Tip #6: There is a lot more to learn, based on your overall goals. Seek advice about those other goals. Know the region of the world. Des Arc is rice country, not far from a river, right in the midst of a major flyway of waterfowl, both beneficial and invasive birds such as cormorants. Design your lake with these factors in mind, too.

Lot of good advice listed above, especially Ewest and Bob, you have to look down the road with this type of project.

I do this kind of work across the River and from what you have mentioned so far there are a few red flags, most of which have been mentioned and include:
1) lack of overall design including shoreline depth and topography plus total yardage; 2) no mention of watershed size which dictates outlet requirements; 3) no specific design on water control structure or emergency spillway; 4) no specifications on interior/exterior side slope requirements; 5) no minimum levee top criteria; 6) has a test pit been dug, are you excavating to a clayey or sandy soil? The list goes on...

If YOU are going to be the "contractor" for this build, you need answers to all the above plus more. The levee design and yardage is easy, we do it every day from an RTK survey or LIDAR data.

Where the dam will sit is at 195' elevation. The top of my property is 200'. The dam will be 6' with 2' of freeboard. From grade we are going down 4' for a total of 8' deep.

Your holding water within 1 ft of your neighbor, given a 100 year rain event will the outlet capacity prevent flooding on your neighbor’s property? Do you have an engineered design stating that? Do you have a dam permit (if required)?

Your prices on moving dirt are in line with going rate, but where are your design specifications? Is this a "guesstimate" of time or yardage? If so add 25%.

Forget the corrugated pipe if you have any agricultural runoff, especially rice. Single wall corrugated is good for 10-15 years in that situation, we replace it every day. Double wall is better but a pain in the butt to fool with and not as good as steel. Used steel pipe is reasonably priced and will last MUCH longer.

After moving dirt pull soil samples for lime requirements, consider pier/dock construction and gravel structure placement. This of course is in addition to overall depth and contour...

Many factors to consider but, do it right and do it once. The second time costs a WHOLE lot more. Your contractor may be good to go, but you need:
1. Solid levee design including total yardage with defined side slopes
2. Overflow AND emergency spillway design
3. Benthic profile of the finished product.

Good luck!

Back of napkin figuring here but 2,000 ft of levee at 6 ft tall and 3:1 side slopes with 20% compaction is 16,000 yards. At $1.65/yd your at $26,400 just in levee construction

At a 2:1 side slope with 20% compaction you are at 12,800 yards, times $1.65 equals $21,120.

Obviously if you are tying in to two existing ridges the average levee height will be less than 6 ft and yardage will decrease, but can you quantify that?

DAN- Just curious as to why the corrugated pipe is bad with rice. Is there a chemical reaction between the two?

I imagine the runoff containing fertilizer and other chemicals are very corrosive. I know fertilizer is from working on grain drills.

We use used steel for our pipes.

Corrugated pipe is very thin compared to steel pipe. Check your local salvage yards. I purchased my 24" oil line pipe from a scrap metal yard for .20 cents on the dollar compared to buying new. You will have the added expense of hiring a welder but atleast you know at that point that it should last the rest of our life time or close atleast. How much water shed are you anticipating?

Lots of great advice.

I think there is as a lot of fun and great memories mad in the planning stages of the lake.

Listen to what the BIG DOG (BOB LUSK) said. This is a place to enjoy think of it that way, plan it that way, build it that way. This is a project that will be there long after you are gone. Think of it in those terms.

Do not get in to big of a hurry, planning is the key to success and a lot fun. Part of the plan needs to be PLAN TO MAKE CHANGES .
The conditions will change and as you go along you will see new things that you did not think about.

USE PLASTIC PIPE. Or aluminum or concrete or thick wall steel.
otto

Also, make sure you want to alter nature. You can't undo it.

I'm guessing it's the high nitrogen that eats the bottom out of the pipes....

The NRCS calculated at least 60 acres of watershed runnin through the draw.

The contractors that I have gotten these quotes from are part of the same family that constructed my grandpas lake in 1960. The 13 acre lake is still in tact today. Its close by my proposed lakesite and is my inspiration for doing what im doing. You can view the lake on google maps under (Keathley Pond, Des Arc Ar). I have actually been screening all of my quotes and ideas through the gentleman who at 20 years old operated the buldozer along with his father to construct my grandpas in 1960. He is now 73 years old. I really appreciate this site and all of you guys constructive criticizm, im havin alot of fun with this.

Good post Dan - well done with lots of info and appropriate suggestions.