Meeting my Dirt Man today to sign contracts, He is going to start working first of next week. Ive been dreaming of this project for a long dang time and am glad to know that it is finally gonna happen. Here is a pic of the future lake.

Hughes Springs area is wonderful part of TX. Great fishing an hour in any direction. Good luck with your project, and send pics.

Wow, that will be a big one!

Always amazed at looking at TX topos with all of the hills, and NO natural bodies of water. What gives? Is the topo so old all of the natural bodies filled in with silt long ago?

It's true what they say...everything is bigger in Texas. That is an awesome project. Good Luck!

Hey now....we ain't MinnySoda that's for sure
but my favorite lake in the whole world is a
natural lake in Texas....Caddo Lake.





Nothing better than sitting on the deck @ Johnson's Ranch Marina
listening to some live music drinking an ice cold Shiner Bock!


JohnsonsRanchCaddoLake

Zep, Caddo is the neatest and spookiest lake I've ever been on. I was fishing there about 20 years ago. I saw a HUGE beaver laying on the bank with its head missing. It hadn't been severed. Something had eaten just the head off. It wasn't bloated so we figured it had happened the previous night. No idea what happened to it.

Dave, Caddo Lake is something very special. Like a step back in time. It's wild when you get in some of those sloughs where several come together...almost like an intersection on the lake and there is literally street signs that tell ya which way to go. I caught a toothy chain pickerel on Caddo Lake which I had not ever seen before. Ya think a gator ate the beaver? Did you ever meet "Frog" at Johnson's Ranch? That guy was a real character.

ps: David....sorry for the thread drift.
Looks like your new lake is going to be great.
Keep us updated with pictures.

Zep, I stayed there about 25 years ago. Not sure who I met. I think a gator would have eaten the whole thing. Also no real tracks to identify.

Dave....just talking about it makes me realize I need to get back down there.

As you can see I caught some nice fish down there in '06





And Johnson's Ranch isn't quite the same without "Frog"...

"Frog"

I thought that lake was a swamp once, but long ago was artificially damed up to make it larger? So being "natural" really isn't quite accurate. But that aside, Texas geology really is pretty cool, and really needs people like you guys to get some ponds in it.

Caddo started out as a series of bayous, creeks, swamps, and low lying areas that became a natural lake. A dam was added in the 1900's to control the water level after the lake had been there many years...but however one wants to define it.....we sure love it!

CaddoLakeHistory

CaddoLakeHistory2

Well I recieved some Bitter Sweet News yesterday. As it turns out the lake is going to end up being 9 acres instead of 6.8. Apperantly topo maps aren't completely accurate. I love the fact of it being bigger. Only thing is that its going to cost more money. I got the Dirt man down half of what he started wanting so im ok with it. Now im having to relocate everything. Where I originally planned to build my house pad is now going to be under water, lol. But being as that I live for this stuff I dont think that I will mind spending the next few days walking the land reconfiguring everything. lol Construction began this morning clearing trees. Ill take some pics this evening.

wow 9 acres is really nice!
what kind of depths are you planning on?

The natural depth will 12 or 13 feet deep in center by the dam, but he is running his scrapers on sides so it could easily get deeper on sides than in center .

David....I am no expert but deeper sides can really help prevent or reduce certain kinds of moss and pond scum being along your shoreline. Of course most people dont want to step off into 10 foot of water either. I guess there is a happy medium.

I bought a place that already had a pond and have some trouble with moss/aquatic vegetation along my shores.

Mike Otto the pond building expert came out and he said part of the problem is my banks don't drop off quick enough. Mike stated a shallow gradual bank allows the aquatic vegetation to grow easier.

Mike said it's relatively cheap to make steep banks when building a pond, but once a pond my size is built it can be pretty expensive to go in after the fact and make the shoreline have a steeper incline. Mike said some people that don't want a steep shore dropoff on their entire pond can build half or just parts of their ponds with this steeper slope feature and thus prevent/greatly reduce the shoreline aquatic vegetation. If I had it to do over-again I would love steeper shorelines on at least 75% of my pond/lake.

See below the aquatic vegetation along my shore:


This pic shows my buddy standing in my shallow shoreline and Mike said that gradual slope makes it too easy for the aquatic vegetation in east Texas. This was earlier in Spring, it got much worse.

David, that's going to be a fun project. Is the lake going to be in the same area?
This is none of my business, and feel free to say so if you wish: but, what's the story concerning that that area (about 100'x500) on the road? Do you own that too?

I was wondering the same thing about that area.

And take my word for it, Zep's very correct.

Zep, Yes he is going to scrape down the sides for dirt for the dam, I put it in our contract for him to do this all the way around the lake. Im not so concerned about up in the shallow end as it will mostly bee swamp "Hopefully duck heaven also".
Rmedger, If youre talking about the small section that the boundry line goes around. It wasnt mine 2 years ago when that drawing was made, but this past year the crazy idiot that lived there moved out and i was fortunate enough to buy it. It has a small frame house on it which we rent my wifes aunt and cousin. It worked out well for us.
The guys got almost all of the trees down today in the main part of the lake. Pics wont show much yet

Zep, Have you seen the rakes that they make that you can drag behind a boat? My buddy used one at his lake and got alot of the vegitation up.

David...I have seen those rakes and thought about getting one. What did your buddy do with all the vegetation once he raked it out? Burn it? How long do you think it stays pretty clear? I guess if done right it may last half the summer of being a lot more clear of the vegetation? It would seem like pond mgt companies would offer this service, but it seems like they go a different direction and that makes we wonder how effective raking really is. But hey does your buddy need extra work? I will hire him..LOL This is my first summer with the property, besides stocking lots of Tilapia I was kind of just watching to see what happens. With the scorching heat during July/August I don't spend a lot of time out there. Hope to have aeration in place by next Spring along with more tilapia and maybe some grass carp. Can't wait to see some pics of your place. Sounds like you have a great palette to start with.

He raked it last year and had it looking good. This year its all back again, his is mostly lilly pads.

Check this site out, That cutter that he has seems to be the one id want.
http://www.lakerake.com/

Before using it just make sure that the plants that you are raking are the type that don't propigate from cuttings or you'll just make the weed problem worse.

Good Point!

Dirt Man is back onsite today. He didnt work yesterday because he was going to an equipment auction. I hope that at the end of today all of the trees are down and piled in the main body of water. At that point ill take some pics.

We got 2.5" of rain this morning so i dont think we are going to get much done today. Our Timber man that was suppose to be on site this morning is now going to have to come back next Friday. If its not one thing its another. lol Oh well atleast that gives me more time to select the trees that I want to keep around my House Pad and Shop Pad.

These picture were taken from what will be the East Northeast side of lake. Im standing on the dam of the pond that I built 2 years ago. Pic 1 is looking down to where the Dam will be. We still have lots of trees to clear out on the west side of the lake. If you go back to the map of the lake you can see the draw that the small pond is located at.

Here are a couple more pics. We have been delayed an entire week waiting on a timber man to show up. He finally called me to say that he was not going to be able to get the timber out. I am meeting another Timber Co. this afternoon. Pine Timber is not paying much at all so im basically having to give it away just so I can get someone out here. The trees that you see standing in the lake area are down now and I should be able to get a better pic this afternoon.

This morning the welder showed up to start welding up the 24" spillway pipe. I met with a new timber co. last night and they are going to begin bringing equipment over today as well. The dirt man starting digging the key on Monday.He is digging it with the scraper as well as back filling the clay with the scraper also. That makes the key roughly 12' wide wich i am very happy with. Ill post more pics as soon as the progress is noticable.

What are they packing the key with?

The scraper is packing it with every load of clay that it brings in. That thing is huge.

This is about the size scraper he is using.

We we got the spill way pipe welded and in the dam. I had the welder put on 2 4'x8 antiseep collars. The dam is probably half finished. It's hard to take pictures that show any progress because of all the piles of trees. We've dug a hole out in the middle to put tree stumps in. Hopefully we can burn most everything. And once the piles are burnt. I should be able to take pictures that show progress.

All I can say is that I am jealous.

What are your plans for stocking this 9 acre beaut?

90 lbs. Flathead Minnows
4000 Coppernose BlueGill (From my existing 1 acre Pond, No Preditors for 2 years. Its over stocked)
900 Northern Black Bass
300 Black Crappie
400 Hybrid Striper Bass

Some people are telling me not to put the Crappie in there, But I actually want something that I can catch all I want of and have a big fish fry.

And "Some people" would be correct. CC would be a better choice. 1300 predators , not counting the BC or any CC , is too many IMO. You would be better served with half that many.

Looking on a map it looks like you are on the same line as Jackson Mississippi, Montgomery Alabama, and about half way between Atlanta Georgia and Tallahassee Florida. The point being is, why Northern Bass?

If it were my pond, and like I said...I am envious that you have a nine acre pond in TX, I would do it like this. Its just my opinion. I'm not trying to tell you what to do. Its just what I would do.

Year One (Fall)
Fathead Minnows @ 100 pounds
Golden Shiners @ 1000 shiners
Lake Chubsuckers @ as many as you can catch until you hit 1000
Grass Shrimp @ if you can count them God bless you LOL
Papershell Crayfish @ if you can find 'em 500 pounds

Year Two (Fall)
Coppernose Bluegill @ 4000 gills
Redear Sunfish @ 800 redears

Year Three (Spring)
Northern Largemouth Bass @ 225 fingerlings
Florida Largemouth Bass @ 225 fingerlings
Channel Catfish @ 450 fingerlings
Threadfin Shad @ 9,000 shad

Year Four (Spring)
Blue Tilapia @ whatever you can afford up to 25lb per acre

That would be my strategy given that you were able to create suitable habitat and get the right types of plants growing in your pond.

The only thing that I know about Hybrid Stripers is that they are put and take and if you want them go ahead and put them in. I don't know about how many, I would ask someone else to weigh in on the subject.

My guess is that by year five you would be pulling some pretty solid bass out of there and then the race would be on to harvest enough bass every year to keep everything in check.

You may not believe it, but you will have so many smaller bass that you need to cull (in the one pound area) that you will have plenty of fish to fry up whenever you like. It will just take a little time to get there.

David, crappie seriously overpopulate "small" ponds. Lusk tells of a lake that he was called to manage. He found tons of 7 year old, 4 inch crappie.

They spawn early and can decimate the fry of the BG and LMB.

If it were me, and it's not, I would do my crappie fishing in either Conroe or Livingston.

Or if you really want some crappie you could try out the hybrid crappie and keep track of them for us in that pond. I think if they do not spawn as much like they say and the offspring is inferior then you may grow out some large initial stockers and not ever have to worry about the over population of small critters. (then again studies are still being done on them and a few people here have tried them)

I would actually put in a few Blue Cats and maybe even a Flathead. (not really recommended by most)

That was just my $.02 and wanted to throw it out there.

Even without the crappie, I think the BG numbers are a light. Going on the recommendation of 100 LMB for 1,000 BG you are stocking 50% of what should be stocked.

Not sure of the timing on the plan (notes 2 years). You can stock fewer BG and wait a year and be ok on the #s or stock some adults (quick spawn) and make up for the short #s. That assumes stocking small predators (2 to 4 inch).

I do think the 10 to one is old data for food production not recreational fisheries. New data indicated the ratio should be 15 to 20 to one minimum using BG and LMB. I suggest 25 to 30 to one for best results for a little longer period.

As a point of reference we stocked CNBG/RES from 6 inch to 2 inch , TShad adults , 100 lbs of FH , craws , bullfrog tads all in addition to existing craw population and waited for 9 mths with feeders going ( 4 additional BG spawns plus TShad spawn and millions of FH spawned) and then stocked LMB at 30 per acre. Next year we added 500 adult TShad per acre. That was in 2008 we are still ahead of the LMB but the gap is closing. Thread http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=242812&page=1

Whoa! Then he's really lite on the forage numbers! Thanks ewest, I'll remember that.

Kinda reminds me of the advice I used to give: Stock bass when they can go to sleep with their mouth open and wake up with a full belly. Having way too much forage always seems to be temporary.

Another one: How many cows would you put in a pasture of grass? The cow is the predator of the grass forage. Overstock and sooner the cows eat all of the forage and lose weight. And every time some more forage tries to grow, the cows eat it. Sooner or later the ground is ruined and the cows have to be moved or supplementally fed$$$$$$. The best Ranch Manager is a grass farmer.

Stock so the forage always stays ahead of the predator(s). Concentrate on the forage base and the predators will thrive.

I think without an "Exotic Species Permit" Mozambique Tilapia are the only legal tilapia one can stock in Texas ponds?

I dont mind leaving out the BC or the HSB, On the stocking #s for CNB I should be able to put way more CNBG in there than the 4000 that I posted. We stocked 800 in my 1 acre pond at the end of summer last year. The only preditor in there is 10" CC which I really dont think have hurt the BG population at all. Im going to try to keep the ponds stocked seperatly. Small pond for CC and Baitfish and big Lake for Bass. Although Catfish will eventually get in the Lake due to floods. As soon as Hurricane Isaac passes I hope I have enough water in Lake to begin stocking Flatheads at least. But it is gonna take a LONG, Long time to fill this Lake up im afraid. So I think that I have time to perfect my Stocking Plan.

This could be 100% true. I didn't know that different states only allowed certain types of tilapia. I had seen people from Texas talking about stocking tilapia and I assumed that individual species wasn't an issue. I could be mistaken.

If you want big bass, the less competition the better.

Mozambique is the only species legal in Texas. Of course, I don't believe the ones I have bought have all been pure strain.

I want to be able to catch big bass, But more importantly to me is that I want to be able to catch a lot of fish. My neighbor has Florida Bass in his pond and there are some Monsters in it. But you may only catch one fish the evening that you go. I want my kids to be able to catch fish after fish after fish. Is there not a happy medium?

David feel free to contact us for a stocking plan to meet your goals. Also I will be in Shrveport this fall if you are interested in a consult to help provide habitat plan for the lake and other management information.

FYI I work on many lakes that leak when the core is not packed with a packer. My advice get them to rent vibratory roller to pack while the pan brings in the clay. Also the trees canbe a big help for cover needs, save soem to place in fairly shallow water near your designed spawning tables. Godo luck looks like a good project.

The dam is 95% complete with mostly dressing it out with Top Soil remaining. He did not use a vibrating packer on the core, but a loaded scraper running over every new layer of clay i feel will be sufficiant for packing. Its hard to take close up pictures with my phone that show the true size of the lake. This evening I believe that I will try taking some pics from the top of the hill with my camera to see if that does any better. It is really coming along now. He is clearing trees for my housepad this week and will start clearing trees for my shop pad by the weekend.

Looks like a good dam from the pic.

That Pic was taken roughly 1100' from the dam at a Northern water line.

If there is one thing that I have learned whenever you undertake a HUGE project like this is it pays to do it right the first time LOL.

A leaky dam is a PITA on a one acre pond.

That looks like a lot of clay there. It sounds like you have a good dirt guy so I hope that everything works out perfectly for you.

You know, I used to make fun of my ex wife for following other people's "blogs" on stuff...usually DIY home projects or whatever...now I feel just like her. I wake up and I'm like, "Man, I hope that there are some new pictures of the pond" LOL.

The pond is now complete. They just installed the 24" riser over the weekend. I spread rye grass seed over dam this weekend as well. Now we are just waiting on Rain and we are going to need a whole bunch of it! lol. I will get some detailed pics of dam very soon. The dirt man is finsihing my road now.

Hopefully yall can zoom in on these photos. We have got a good slow rain the last few days that has really helped the Rye Grass seed that I put on the dam. But I think im going to go ahead and buy more seed and spread out more.

any structure for the pond?

I will be building man made structure for it. PVC trees placed where I want them. My dirt guy kept telling me to leave the trees and stumps every where for structure. I made him push them all up and burn them except at the shallow end of lake. The last thing that I wanted is a bunch of trees in the pond to get hung on every time I cast.

Its been a little while since ive posted any pics. But not much has changed. We havent had any sunstantial rain since we finished the dam. Christmas day Santa finally braught me my wish which is rain. I think we ended up getting 4" which I was very thankfull for. My little pond finally filled back up so now when a good rain comes i will get double the run off.

Looks like the rye is growing. That's a very good thing.

David,
Did you use a syphon pipe or some other overflow system? Which side of your dam is your emergency overflow located? What size riprap did you use? Do you have any pic of these things?

Do you have a stocking plan yet?

With any luck you should be seeing some retention with these rains.

Thanks.

Were you able to get your Core of Engineers permit for this?

I used 24" pipe for my over flow system. It rises on the back side of the dam with a butterfly valve at the bottom of it so that I can lower the level of the pond when needed.
I didn't use any riprap rock anywhere.

Why would I need a Core of Engineers permit?

David,
You should not need a Coprs of Engineers permit in Texas for a farm pond dam. How tall is your dam? How deep will you pond be?

15' deep . Dam is 18' tall at one point but the majority of the dam is much less.

You should not need one. When I talk to them, I was exempted because it was a farm pond. I can't see you needing one with yours being smaller than mine and holding less water.

Legally you need a core of engineers permit to build a lake they are getting REALLY strict about this kind of stuff now.. It could be some REALLY bad implications if you don't. I have heard of prison time and at the least fines and not to mention busting the dam

I think that's on a state-by-state basis.

I check with the TCEQ and the Corps before we built, and in Texas we are exempt from permit with the ponds we built. I also talked with the NRCS and got plans to start from and then we went bigger and wider just to be sure we had a really good dam. We also added a bit more freeboard to help prevent problems in the future.

In short, in Texas you have the right of capture of 200 acre-feet of water in a pond, and as long as your dam in short enough and there is no threatened structures down stream, you are good.

Of course, consult your dam attorney if you want legal advise!!!

That's funny, I just now got it. I'm old and slow.

Nrcs office helped me lay out my pond when I first got started. It was never mentioned.

I think Texas has a lot of advantages that other states may not have. You can do most anything you want if property rights and state rules are followed.

When we built our puddle, the dam turned out to be 1050'. There were no issues or permits, but we were careful to have the overflow go directly into the existing creek bed, and cap the water at the top of the property so it wouldn't back up into our neighbor's property.

Other than that, we could have built the lake 3' inside the property lines if we wanted to.

Amen

Amen also but I expect things to change.

Dave, I think you're right. If State/Fed figure out a way to make a dime off of increased regulations for ranch/farm owners I think they'd jump on it in a heart beat.

The potential changes to the inheritance taxes show that. Many money poor land rich families are going to be popped good unless current laws are kept. No finger pointing, just facts.

Dave,
Is that your only spillway that is in the picture?

I was kind of surprised as we start to build our mini-log cabins that there are no building codes or restrictions at all in our county, except for the septic system. A gvt bureaucrat will have to issue a permit and inspect the new septic system...but that's basically it.

I am not saying it is a totally good thing to be wide open, because some half-wits might make some dangerous mistakes, but it sure is nice to be able to do what you want when building your week-end get-away.

Last year we were considering building a new office suite and they said all new light switches in offices were mandated to be on timers that shut off if no motion is detected after a certian amount of time. The landlords say they are getting lots of complaints people sitting at their desks reading their computer screens without making much movement and the lights suddenly shut off in their office. I read this week that they have discovered the new "energy saving" light bulbs may be hazardous to our health!

What next......?

Mark I know. We easily ran 600' of Cat 5 at an office building once, and wound up rerunning it all after an inspection. 4 blocks over, in another city, everything was a go with the same setup.

Same scenario about septic tank only permit when we built.

BD, We installed a 24" pipe through the dam with a riser on the back side to reach our desired water level. We also have a 60' wide overflow spill way to the far left that is not in the pics.

I sure am enjoying this rain!! I can sit out by the pond and watch fill up with a big smile on my face!!!

it's wonderful!

Well we finally got some rain but we have a long way to go. In these pics im standing at what will be the waterline.

This pic is about a month and a half old but shows that the water has been on the rise. Its probably about a foot higher than this now. We still have a long ways to go now as it is beginning to take on alot of land mass.

David, that is going to be a very pretty lake. You and your family will really enjoy it.

Thank you, I took more pics today ill post them in the morning

Here are some more pics. We are getting a constant flow into pond now since the ground is well saturated. The water flowing out of the surrounding hills alone is creating a steady but slow rise in water level.

more

David, with the drought, our pond is still not full, I am hoping that this year will be the year that it fills!! Be patient..... It will fill, but on its timeline.

Looking good so far!!

I have a question. I went ahead and stocked 900 cnbg 200 redear and 20 lbs. fhm.
Which is not near enough when the lake is at full pool. But with spawning coming soon. Do yall feel like its safe to say that by next year there will not be any need for additional stocking? I will add more if need be I just didint want to overstock in a small BOW.

What size were the sunfish? What's the chance of any predators in the pond?

There should not be any predators in the pond. At this time id say it has about 4 to 5 acres of surface water and rising.

I would like to stock bass at the end of next summer

They finally updated Google Earth in my area but it is from back in September. The water is up quite i bit more than this shows. The good news is according to Planimeter the pond is going to be right at 10 acres.

David, I think I would go ahead and stock more. Something like 2,000 bg/res per acre. Right now you have stocked 1,100 over 10 acres. The FHM's will help some but there's just not a lot of calories in a minnow.

Pond has been filling up steadily since early this year. We only have about 2 more feet to go. Might be less than that after all of the run off. Here's a pic of my gauge that I built for my lake. I will try to get out and take some good pics tommorow bit we are staying at children's tonight with our daughter

1

The lake is 22" from full pool. Im in awe every time a walk around the pond. Ive got some good flooded timber in the shallow end which gives me my duck hunting spot.

I do have a question though, Before the pond filled I couldn't get to a lot of the shallow end to brush hog cause of mud and logs laying everywhere. Now I have a lot of tall grass grown everywhere in the shallow end of the pond. Im assuming this will die out but how long will it usually take?

Wow...that's pretty. Congrats!

David, my flooded grass took less than a month to die, but as it does, it will mat on the surface until it rots and sinks. Stemy plants like goat weeds took much longer.

Im loving this rain!!! As I left for work this morning the pond was exactly 12" from full pool. We are getting a good rain this morning so there is a chance it could finally be full when I get home this evening.

I know how you feel, its been over three years since we started the pond project and still not full, I have learned patients with this one....

Best of luck!! Post pics when you can.

HF, you getting rain from the latest storm?

YEP!!!

My spies tell me I am getting good rain and we got over two inches before today!! I'll get out to the farm this week and let you know. An update is far overdue. BTW, I got my new solar charge controller and my trackers!! Time to get welding again now that I have my welder back!!

If I don't make it to full pool this spring I will cry publicly.

I believe this pond has taught me patients more that raising kids. lol

HF, How far are you from being at full pool? How big of a pond did you build?

Dave,
The big pond is about 11 acres-ish. The last time I was out there, we are about a 16 inches to full. Since then, we have had about three inches of rain before today. If it rises normally, we should need less than a foot to full pool after those rains, so today's rains could really make me impatient!!

FYI David, we will be in your area tomorrow if you would like us to take a look at your new lake. We would love the chance to bid on stocking and management of this new project.

That sounds good to me ill call.

Here are some pics of the pond after 3 more inches of rain. Im now at 10" from full pool.

Im glad I made this thread 2 years ago. I had it in my head that I stocked 4 acres worth of CNB and RES until I read back in this thread to realize that I only stocked 1 acres worth. That could've been a big mistake. Im meeting with Overton Fisheries today to get a quote on the remaining stock needed.

Really beautiful lake with nice surrounding area. My wife would have liked even bigger than the 3.5 acres we ended up with, but land available near the house did not allow it without damming up a seasonal creek and that would have involved the Corps as well as probably other government agencies I did not even want to talk to. So we ended up with as big as what would fit the space and still classify it as a stock pond. Nine acres is a nice, big, BOW.

Early on I had read that under-stocking leads to over population of fish worse than stocking the recommended amount. Don't remember where I read that. May have been a Kansas or Missouri publication which I relied on pretty heavily before I discovered Pond Boss forum. That never really made complete sense to me, but I guess they had a reason for saying it. I can see where it would get the balance off early if the forage fish did not populate enough to fill the space in the pond before the bass got big enough to eat the forage, maybe leading to bass over population without enough forage rather quickly. That is all I can surmise anyway. If that is the case it would seem if a person was going to under stock, maybe let the forage fish go a couple of years????? before adding predators??? I don't know.

I would sure like to hear some of the experts advice on under-stocking because that is probably what I am going to end up doing with my son's and daughter's pond. I will probably take larger forage fish in smaller numbers out of my pond and let them reproduce for the forage base, then add the larger LMB also caught from my pond a couple years later.

This is not exactly the situation you have, but it might be similar, so I am interested in what you learn from Overtons as well as other people here on the forum about bringing up the population to proper numbers from the original under-stocking.

I would imagine a fishery that sells fish is going to look at it from the perspective of selling you fish and getting the BOW up to productive fishing speed ASAP for you to enjoy. I will be looking at it from the angle of spending little to no money but taking more time to get the fishery to where it is optimum. The son and daughter will not have a lot of money to spend on stocking fish, so it will be up to me to do it out of my pond on a little longer time line. I know that is not the way that most pond owners will look at it or the optimum way, but we all have to work within our means. Most want to get the fishery up to speed as quickly as possible. I don't mind if it takes a few years longer. If the son or daughter want different, they can buy the fish they want.

Anyway, interested in what you find out in the way of managing your situation because of similarities I may face.

Beautiful pond!

Have you added any structure? A 9 acre pond obviously requires a lot of forage and I would hate for you to pay all that money to stock it properly only to have the bass wipe out the forage since there is nowhere for the forage to hide. Make some big rock piles and/or rip rap shorelines. Get some PVC structure and concentrate it in several spots at different depths. Perhaps cut a shoreline tree or two and make it fall into the lake. Put a long pipe in the bottom and then stack Christmas trees on top of it to a few inches under the surface. Get some lilly pads or other vegetation growing in shallow flats. You want to have structure in 20% of the pond which doesn't sound like much but actually is a huge amount!

Time is the key with understocking. I believe TJ stocked his pond this way.

There is plenty of structure. Tree piles, brush piles, Flooded timber.

I will be adding man made structure later to suit how I want to fish, But im waiting till full pool so that I can place the structure in the locations that I see fit.

My son is 14, I feel like im running out of time lol. Im stocking the pond the recommended way for faster results.

Excellent! If you need any good ideas here are some great and easy to build structures: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92463#Post92463

David,
Todd's guys are quality people. I would trust their recommendations.

Todd Overton is a man of few words - you can go to the bank on what Todd tells you!
G/

Speaking of Overton's, I was shocked to see an Overton's Fish Truck at Park and Preston in Plano, Texas yesterday. I honked but he was already turning.

I understand. My kids are grown adults and it is as much the grandkids I am targeting for having fishing available even more so than the kids.

Most people don't want to take a slow approach for good reasons. When I stocked my pond at recommended rates I did some supplemental feeding. Adding some food for the fish will sure speed the growth and reproduction results up significantly.

That approach was done at one of my clients ponds. Unfortunately when the pond was dug, there were a few GSF in the wet area that he didn't know about. The slow approach let the GSF multiply rapidly, so much that the RES and YP that were stocked never had any recruitment. The plan was to stock RES/YP at about 50% of the recommended rate as fingerlings and let them grow and multiply for 2 years, then stock SMB. The pond was rotenoned because of the high % of GSF in it. I think that if the correct stocking rate was followed from the beginning, that the GSF would never have been a problem.

It would have been less expensive in the long run to stock the correct amount of fish.

Just like the purchase price of a puppy is most likely the smallest amount that you will spend on the dog, the $$ spent towards stocking your pond will be the least amount that you will spend on it. Yes, I AM in the business, and I DO sell fish, but I feel that you will be money and more importantly TIME ahead if you stock it with the correct amount of fish in the beginning.

I agree with this statement!!

Here is a few more pics from the entrance of my property.

I may get to learn that lesson first hand, because I suspect that to be my situation. Fortunately it is my refurb pond and not my main pond, so not quite as big of deal.

I have heard others say that with BG they reproduce enough to eventually crowd out the GSF to a lower level. But I can see with the RES and low reproduction rates it could be a problem.

David, I normally don’t post about anything I have no experience with, but I will make an excerption in this case.
I only can dream of having a 9 acre virgin lake with a once in a lifetime stocking opportunity, but I do have more than 10 years stocking and managing experience with Texas farm ponds.

Pay attention to what Overton tells you, but I will tell you what I would do with your unique opportunity.

First let me qualify my remarks about Todd Overton and Overton Fisheries.
I was his very first customer about 12 years ago when I first found him at TAMU negotiating for purchase of his fish farm. I wanted to stock Hybrid Stripers in our new 2 acre pond, against the advice of TP&W. Todd told me he would find some for me - the rest is history – TP&W now recommends HSB to stock in Texas farm Ponds.

Next step - I participated in early selection of CNBG brood stock, selecting the best of the best brood stock each year. Todd continued to the present date – IMO, he has the very best pure Florida genetics this side of the Mississippi River!

I have NO business interests in Overton Fishieries – just a good satisfied loyal customer!

Given your present opportunity, I would stock numbers of pure Florida CNBG recommended by Overton and let them grow out until pure Florida Camelot Bell LMB were available.

After first spawn of Camelot Bell LMB spawn, I would begin culling each and every one I could catch that did not meet my criteria of fast growth and confirmation.
IMO opinion you have an opportunity to create a world-class fishery.
CONGRATULATIONS!

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=314595&page=1

Please continue to keep us informed with your project – it is exciting to an interested observer.
Good luck,

George Glazener

George, I appreciate your interest. I had the opportunity to fish at Camelot Bell this past summer and I got to pick Mike Fraziers Brain the entire time I was there. My plan is to stock Camelot Bell Fingerlings this summer. I met with Walt yesterday evening and I think we got a game plan for my pond.

That's great news David!
George

Don't keep us in suspense!

Whats the plan?????

The pond is 9 1/2 Acres

Last March we stocked 900 CNBG 2"-3", 200 RES 2"-3" and 20lbs. FHM
(These spawned several times over last summer)

Next Month we will be putting in:
3400 CNBG 3"-5" (Mature ready to Spawn)
850 RES 3"-5" (Mature ready to Spawn)
120lbs. FHM
900 6"-8" Channel Cat

June or July
500 Camelot Bell Florida Bass
30 Triploid Carp(I sent in my application this morning to TPWD)


Ive got some other ideas also but for now I think that this a solid plan to get things off on the right track.
Im also locating my fertilizer now so that when water temps are ready I will be also, Walt Overton tested my water and recommended 95lbs. of 12-61-0 to start.

David, great job! Your place looks terrific! What a great setting you have out your back window.

I hope my lake catches up with yours soon. I've got a couple acres of water in mine now. I look forward to a full pool of 10 acres in the next 12-18 months. I hope to start posting pic's soon.

Sounds/looks incredible David! I would probably cut the CC numbers by 2/3, personally, at least in an initial stocking. 100 CC per acre is kinda high, but quite doable. They will also become a huge biomass in short order even if they can't spawn successfully, taking up resources/space the LMB could occupy along with potentially becoming a tough competition for your LMB! CC are cheap and easy to add in higher numbers at any time, but a real bugger to remove if overstocked!!!

Have you already got enough over abundance of aquatic vegetation for the Grass Carp to eat without removing too much wanted vegetation?

David, let us know how the grass carp permit deal goes. My approval has been a bear to get.

I question the high stocking rate of CC as well.
They are a PITA to remove as they grow older and difficult to remove when becoming hook shy.

But I respect David’s plan – he may love CC for food and fun - they are a blast to catch, just don’t ever release them.
We stocked CC heavily in our original pond – everyone wanted catfish and they did serve a useful purpose – they controlled over population of LMB and we grew some of our largest CNBG!

Not knowing the long range plan for Camelot Bell LMB – there may be a strategy for the numbers of CC – far be it to question David’s stocking plan based on professional advice obtained.
I say go for it – exciting program!
George

George, I had very similar thoughts on the strategy behind the CC...especially since only 500 Camelot's are going in...a fairly low number there suggestive of wanting big Bass as a goal.

I want big Bass!! But I also want something in there that's fun for my kids and family to have fun catching. That's the reason for the #'s. I may back off of those numbers on the cc a little since it seems like every one here thinks its to many.


Rainman The grass isn't bad at all that's why we are only putting 30 in, hoping that they can keep it that way.

David, it is your pond, and I love catfishing! I commented on the "high" number off CC because of what I stated above....they are relatively cheap to stock at advanced sizes if more are wanted, but damn hard to remove once stocked. I presumed with the plan listed you wanted big Bass, so a double whammy could be with lower LMB numbers to control CC offspring, you could get a significant CC recruitment from spawns.

Young GC will eat a lot, and aquatic plants give great cover for plentiful forage fish growth to raise those big bass. You may also want to delay your GC stocking till you near problem plant coverage. The GC MAY prevent WANTED growth.

Not much in a pond happens quickly, and most of us get anxious and impatient. Trying to guess what your pond will do ahead of it happening, like stocking GC as a preventative, could wind up becoming an even more difficult management issue. Like with CC, GC can be stocked if and when needed/wanted, in advanced sizes at reasonable prices.

I'd just hate to see you here posting about a problem created that was originally intended to be a cure. EVERY part of the pond's ecosystem, natural or man introduced must balance....ANY change has profound impacts thoughout the entire system.

As embarrassing as it is, my first pond, before finding this site, was documented by an NRCS agent for in-house training on how NOT to have a pond built! Almost everything that could be done wrong, was....right down to a "dirt pusher" burying 3 complete oak trees in the CORE of the dam as filler material. Fortunately, it was discovered in the repair work as it would not hold water above the original ground level.

A couple of thoughts. FIH has found that Lusk was right about pond vegetation. When you eliminate one type, another is going to take it's place and you might have more problems with the newer one. That goes to Rex's point about vegetation that you really don't want. I've heard and agree that about 20% vegetation is about ideal. Some of it, like duckweed can become a show stopper.

I have very seldom seen a successful CC reproduction in Texas when bass and big bluegill are present. They may pull off a spawn but the young get eaten before they can grow. I think I can identify one from my original stockers 12 to 15 years ago. And, they dang sure get hook shy.

Dave ain't kidding! I learned early and often that you need to have a good recognition of aquatic weeds in your pond. I've never seen shallow clear water around here stay clear of weeds very long.

In my pond it has been very tough to establish vegetation due to steep sides, cold spring water, sandy soil, and I suspect I may have stocked the wrong crayfish. I would wait on grass carp as they do a very effective job of controlling vegetation and can get the job done in relatively short order so there is no reason to put them in before any vegetation is established.

In the absence of vegetation would the GC feed on other fish?

Hey David, we agree with the majority of the forum members on the catfish stocking numbers. Need to cut that down some. Also we recommend to hold off on any catfish stocking initially. Baitfish only to start with, but can add catfish at same time as the Camelot Bell bass, or later in the fall. Also don't forget about hybrid stripers. Could stock those in fall 2014.

Well my pond is officially full. Last night we received one of the heaviest 1 1/2" rains ive ever seen.

Is this just Moss growing in my pond? It is growing anywhere there is a branch sticking out of the water on the shallow end of the pond.

Got the boat out on the water yesterday. Here is a pic from the shallow end looking back to the dam.

Nope, it's not moss. It looks like Filamentous Algae (FA) to me.

Will Carp help out with this type of algae? I just got my permit for my Carp and ordered them today.

Word around here is that carp won't but tilapia will. Maybe George can comment?

carp prefer leafy plants like pondweed. They rarely mess with algae unless they are really hungry.

David, check with Todd on numbers of tilapia to control filamenteous algae - they do an outstanding job and will provide excellent forage for your Camelot Bell LMB.
Water temps will soon be optimum to avoid morts - we'll be picking ours up in a couple of weeks.
You have an exciting program - I enjoy your posts.
George

http://youtu.be/L1Zh7_ejb68


I hope this link works. Its a video of my spillway pipe after 4" of rain this week

David, we are at full pool and getting a flow out of siphon spillway for first time in several years.
We may have to go in hiding in fear of a lynching from our West Texas friends!
George

Looks like your spillway pipe is working great. That is awesome!

Heres a couple of recent pictures that my Sister took when she came up to visit.

Beautiful pics David. They make me want a hot cup of coffee!

wow !

beautiful....love the trees...tranquility!

The entrance isn't finished yet but all we have left is the gates and the overhead sign.

wow awesome entry and fencing...
love all the pictures.
you are blessed!

I love a fire sky sunrise or sunset in east Texas....nice pics!

They finally updated Planimeter . It looks like my pond is 10.36 acres at full pool.

I posted this on 3/23/13
This was also the exact time that the 50 F1 Tiger Bass were stocked on accident.

We have caught 2-4 lbs bass this month. With the average bass weighing 2.5 lbs. Id say the pond is off to a great start.

Congrats on the "accident".