Pond Boss
Posted By: John Wann New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 05/16/12 03:02 PM

Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 05/16/12 03:03 PM

Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 05/16/12 03:09 PM
Hi, I just got this pond built 2 months ago and now im noticing some seepage out the center back of dam. The water is about 6 foot deep in pond so far. It is not running out the back, just small pockets of water on top of ground. It is doing this in two spots. The water level in pond is looing an inch per week. Will this fix itself. I paid to have keyway put in and watched him do most of work.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 05/16/12 03:48 PM
I don't think so (being normal). I'd call the builder and have him visit - ask him the same question.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 05/17/12 09:44 AM
One inch per week on a new pond isn't a big deal. The water wicks back into the drier banks and will for a long time. The rocks I see are more conducive to wicking in those areas.

Water coming out of the back of a dam is never desirable or normal.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 05/17/12 01:24 PM
Thanks guys. Just had me a little worried. We are in a drought in mid Missouri. I need rain!
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 05/21/12 09:02 AM
I called dirt guy and he said it is normal for a new pond to do this and not be concerned. He told me to dump a bunch of dry wall peices in pond and it will quit leaking faster. I chose not to do that. Dumped 500lbs of benonite around leak area. Still seems to be seeping 4 days later. Water loss is very minimal. I just don't like having spent all that money and having muddy spot on back of dam. . It only has 6 foot of water in it. I wonder what will happen when it fills to twelve. Will the extra water pressure help it seal it up or make it leak more. Thanks.
Posted By: gallop Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 05/21/12 10:56 AM
I've never heard water seeping out the back of a dam is "normal"

Unless the definition of what a dam does has changed
Posted By: liquidsquid Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 05/21/12 10:56 AM
Dry wall? Another new one... though I thought softener salts wouldn't work either until I read up on it.
Posted By: Sniper Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 05/21/12 12:50 PM
I had Mike Otto come to my property to do an evaluation of my pond (15-20 years old). I was particularly interested in his opinion of my larger dam. I have some minor seepage along its bottom along the backside. He said, "All ponds leak."
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 05/21/12 01:17 PM
Thanks again guys. Guess I'm just getting a little impatient waiting for it to fill while seeing this water on back of dam.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 05/21/12 05:01 PM
I agree with Mike Otto, but it's the amount of leakage that is in question. I'd take a large pan, fill it to the brim with water, and monitor evaporation rates at the pond. Put a fence post with a yardstick in the pond at the water level so you can accurately measure the amount of water rise or fall - you can't do it accurately by looking at the shore line.

If it gets to be a lot more than evaporation, then you'll have concrete numbers to talk to the pond builder about.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 05/21/12 05:12 PM
If it were me, I'd call him out for a visit and demand a solution before it goes much longer. In my experience it becomes exponentially more difficult to encourage a contractor to step up and claim responsibility as time since construction passes.


Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/03/12 11:55 PM
Dirt guy says give it six months i set up yard stick and I've lost 4 inches in 4 days. I can see running water now in Two spots and very wet spont in 3 more. He says it will seal itself. It's about 1/10 acre and 51/2 foot right now. It looks like there is a spring about 2 inches wide at bottom of damn. It will be about 1/2 acre when fool. I'm worried once it fills to 12 feet it going to be a creek running out back. Will a pond really seal itself. Its been about 2/12 months now. I'm getting worried. I paid extra $1500 for key way so this would not happen.
Posted By: RAH Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/04/12 01:09 AM
I would get it fixed now. If he water leaking out the back is from the pond, then the key did not seal. If he will not fix it, tehn document the problem and get someone else to fix it. You then may have a chance, but not a guarentee, that you could recover your extra cost in court. Be sure you ask him to fix the problem in writing and give him a chance to fix it. If he does not, let him know in writing that you are going to have the defect fixed by someone else. It is best if he steps up, but if not, you still need the problem fixed.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/04/12 03:58 AM
I'm with RAH. If you get a really, really heavy rain, the pond fills, the leak gets worse, and the dam blows out. Is he going to absorb all the costs involved in fixing it then?
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/04/12 09:36 AM
I have never heard of a leak sealing itself. Nor have I heard of a couple of pieces of drywall sealing a pond. But then, maybe I haven't heard of everything.

If it does blow out, you have several concerns.

1. What and/or who is downstream?

2. Where will you get soil to replace it?
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/04/12 10:17 AM
I'm gonna call dirt guy after work for solution. I think we he should just have to take inside dirt away till he hits key and repack with some better clay or does the whole dam need redone. It sucks I got $500 in grass planted around dam not to mention all that time watering during drought. Got another $130 in fingerlings in pond. Guess I jumped the gun on stocking it. I can always drop the water level and saine those fish out and put in my uncles pond.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/08/12 03:15 PM
Well it looks like we are draining pond. Dirt guy is coming back in few weeks to fix. Now to seine all the fish out. He wants to work bentonite into Clay already there. Hope this fixes the problem. I no longer need rain so the drought is prob about over.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/08/12 05:07 PM
It's good you pursued aggressively to seek a solution and not allow it to drag out. I'm no contractor, but sounds like quite a leak and might suggest a more fundamental problem - like a poorly designed core trench. Would Bentonite address such an basic engineering flaw? I don't know...identifying and repairing leaks are far from an exact science as Otto and other professionals have documented time and time again.

Thank goodness he's at least willing to come out and do something...his attitude of wait around it will fix itself was troubling - sounded like he was trying to buy time and hope you'd lose your interest in chasing him.

It's worth telling him you've got to pay for reseeding yet another time - and in Summer it's much more difficult process leading to erosion concerns, etc. He may offer to help reimburse for the costs - it's worth asking. I know I sure would.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/13/12 02:55 AM
Dirt guy says give it half a summer and if still leaking we will drain. He said he has many ponds around here seal themselves.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/13/12 03:43 AM
Don't add any more fish!
Posted By: SK63 Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/15/12 03:40 PM
What's the name of said "Dirt Guy"? I'm in Missouri and want to stay away from him if I ever decide to dig a pond. It's starting to be my opinion that it's about a 1/10 chance of finding a good knowledgeable excavator.
Posted By: Bing Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/16/12 12:53 AM
It seems strange that dirt guy wanted an extra $1500 to put in a keyway. If that is extra he must be building ponds without them which doesn't seem quite professional. How did you find this guy and what kind of references did he have?
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/16/12 08:56 AM
People at work Said he was best around.
Posted By: Rainman Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/16/12 01:39 PM
Jwwann, a pond won't "seal" on it's own. As the water flows in a leak, it takes soil with it and erodes a larger and larger path. A rock or something may eventually shift from soil loss and plug the leak temporarily, but will eventually make the eroded paths even larger.

Are you finding much soil in the wet areas behind the dam? Your "dirt guy" SHOULD do the repairs on his dime to save his Rep. Unfortunately in Missouri, many dirt guys have so much work they don't care if a few get screwed.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/21/12 02:29 PM
If I dump a pallet(1 ton) of bentonite in leak area will it still be good for sealing if it fails. I gotta get this leak fixed. Don't want my well to burn up or go dry. How is the bentonite after you put in water and let dry. Will it recompact good? Just curious.
Posted By: Ryan Freeze Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/21/12 03:21 PM
All ponds/dams leak but they should not get worse in the weeks/months following construction.

Excavation is basically bid on how much material will be moved. If more material needs to be moved, it makes sense that there would be an "extra" charge, such in the case of a core. I think this is merely the contractor justifying costs to the customer. No contractor knows exactly what they will encounter before they start digging. Test holes can give you a good idea but there are always surprises. Most excavators will give you an estimate as opposed to a guaranteed price. The estimate is usually loosely based on cost per cubic yard and their estimated time. If you want a guanteed lump sum price for a leak free pond...expect it to be double or triple that of an estimate.

Are there written specifications for the dam/pond? Did the excavating company build the pond in compliance with the specification? Was there any guarantee that the pond would be leak free or for workmanship?

Having clearly written plans, specifications, and a contract with a lump sum price and provisions with a pre-established per cubic yard unit prices for extra work outside of the plan is most fair for all parties involved.

It is also a good idea to have a capable quality assurance person without any vested interest in the project to give the owner assurance that the contractor is performing the work in accordance with the plan and specification and too look for potential problems that can be addressed during construction which will be less costly for both the owner and the contractor to correct during rather than after completion.
Posted By: liquidsquid Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/21/12 09:06 PM
I always wondered what the possibility of creating a new core behind the dam, and fill with good material from somewhere nearby to make a short dam with a pipe or breach all set for draining. Then breach the old dam, let the water out, then move the old dam plus new clay/bentonite into the new dam location. It would then prevent machinery from spending too much time in the muddy bowl of the pond. It would have the additional benefit if enlarging the pond which we all hate.
Posted By: Ryan Freeze Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/22/12 12:13 PM
May be easier to grout it if the leak is small.

http://www.grouters.org/rockgrout/Dams%20Usage.htm
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/23/12 12:39 AM
Just got done dumping a hole pallet of sodium bentonite around dam 10 foot past base. Waiting game now. Another $468 gone. It swelled up around 8" deep. Only time will tell.
Posted By: ymurf Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/23/12 01:05 AM
Im in Mo also.And I had a 1 acre pond dug 4 years ago.Had seepage at toe of damn and I can tell you from experience they do not seal themselves. Tried everything.Even bentonite.Now with the drought we are having this summer I may lose everything.Chalk it up to a $5000 mistake.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/23/12 01:18 AM
I hope not.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/26/12 01:02 AM
The leak has slowed for now. Let's see what happens?
Posted By: liquidsquid Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/27/12 01:43 AM
ymurf,may be a great opportunity to fix the pond if it dries up! You can re-work the soils in the entire basin with a sheeps-foot compactor making a clay liner.
Posted By: Pondbuilder217 Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 06/30/12 04:45 AM
I am a contractor in Central IL. I specialize in ponds and no pond seepage is normal. I also think the contractor you have is on the wrong page beacuse I have never and will never charge extra to put a core in. I put a core in every pond that I build beacuse without one, they ALL leak. It is always included in the price. When the contractor says give it time to "seal" that is supposed to mean so the water doesn't seep into the ground. Eventually the ground will stop soaking up the water and your water level will rise. It doesn't mean it will stop leaking past the levee. It could take up to 2 years for your pond to maintain the highest level. But your levee will never seal. You have a problem and it needs fixed. Also, keep in mind that on hot summer days it is normal to lose an inch a day to evaporation.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 07/05/12 09:13 AM
The pond quit leaking for now.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/03/12 11:15 PM
Filled pond up past bentonite and have 3 wet spots on back of dam. Need to call dirt guy and let him know. I would like to wait till fall and my catfish are big enough to eat. I saw my first school of FHM today about inch long. I hate to drain. Should I wait till fall or get him here now. I can always put fish in my uncles pond. I'm stressed.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/04/12 04:06 AM
How many CC?
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/04/12 08:44 AM
50
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/04/12 06:05 PM
If you wanted to keep the CC and restock them in your pond, you could build a cage, and hold them in your uncles pond in the cage until you pond is done, then return them to your pond.

You'd just have to feed them in the cage.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/04/12 11:39 PM
Alright just taked my dirt guy and he wants to haul in clean rock free clay. 10'loads for $1000 or just try to repack clay I got for free. Got 2" inch stream running out back of pond. He wants to put 18 inch of clay on bottom of pond then heal the rest around inside of damn without cutting into it too much. Does this sound like good idea. He said he thinks my clay had too much clay gravel in it. Should I go ahead and have him cut out whole core and start from scratch? Will having thick layer around the inside of damn really stop leaks. He said he has a source of rock free red yellow clay.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/04/12 11:46 PM
That 2" stream scares me.... I'm sending positive thoughts your way to try and ensure you don't wake up tomorrow to a bigger stream.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 02:31 AM
As long as the equipment will be there and the ground tore up anyway, I'd re-do the core too. I prefer to go the belt and suspenders route rather than have to re-do it again later.

If it was my pond, I'd feel better if there was an 18" thick to 24" thick clay liner all over the pond. from bottom to above the high water line. Plus making sure the dam core is good and tied into good soil at the ends of the dam.

If only the bottom of the pond is lined, what is stopping the water from escaping above where the bottom clay liner stops?
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 05:53 AM
He said he would put clay around the inside of bowl. I'm thinking the start from scratch method too. Is this red yellow clay he talks about worth a $100 a dump truck load. I've never even heard of it. This will put my pond over $6000 for under half acre.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 08:54 AM
If I just have him repack the clay I got in core now with a sheepsfoot roller do you think it would stop leak or should I go the safe route and pay extra$$$ now to play it safe. Im not sure how much it cost to rent small roller. This has been a nightmare and I need it fixed.
Posted By: spinnerbait Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 12:39 PM
I'm with esshup. I'd back up and start over. A 2 inch stream will get bigger, and eventually you will have to redo the core anyway. My builder did my core three terex pans wide, and it hasn't had a leak yet in the 2 years of being built.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 01:36 PM
Jwwann:

I know the $ is adding up, but if he just does the core, and the pond still leaks, what will it cost then?

I'm not inferring that good pond builders won't have problems too, but your pond problems are why we say that there are many dirt movers out there, and anybody can dig a pond, but only the true pond builders can dig a hole that will hold water.

If he says the clay will seal the pond, and he will come back on his dime if it leaks, then I'd say it's worth it.

I for durn sure would have the clay placed all the way up the sides of the "bowl" so that it ends above the emergency spillway elevation.

Here's why I say it that way:

Go to your kitchen. You probably have a double sink. Take a bowl that is slightly shorter than the divider between both sink halves. Place it in the sink. The bowl is the "bowl" of the pond. The divider between the sinks is the dam and emergency spillway. If he just covers the "bowl" of the pond up to the normal high water level, then it'd be the same as you trying to fill up the sink with the bowl in it. You'll never get it to the emergency overflow because once the bowl is full it'll leak out the drain.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 01:58 PM
So you think let him put the clay around bowl without tearing into core and see what happens? Then if it starts leaking make sure he will come back on his dime to fix. I wish would of found this forum sooner. Prob could of got good recommendation on pond builder. Water under the bridge now.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 02:51 PM
Ok I think I see what your saying. I'm at work trying to read this from my iPhone. So essup and spinnerbait. You guys are saying have him repack core then put clay liner around inside bowl or just let him try his method of lining bowl with his clay?
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 03:17 PM
I'd do both. If the bowl fix doesn't work, you've lost another 6 months, maybe more in getting the pond completed. Gotta think about stocking fish, letting them grow, etc., etc. If bowl fix doesn't work, then the landscaping around the pond has to go too to vix the dam.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 03:53 PM
Now to persuade him to do both. Im going to go ahead and drain pond this week so in the slim chance it does rain I don't gotta worry about blow out and it will be ready to go when ever he makes it back to repair. He did say on phone last night he done core with 1foot lifts then ran over it 20 time with track loader. That set an Alarm off in my head. Seems like I read on here somewhere to make core in 4" lifts. He won't be happy when I tell him to start from scratch. Hope he don't get mad and not come back.
Posted By: fish n chips Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 04:23 PM
The track loader don't pack it that well. Even a heavier farm tractor with a coarse tread would be better. Tracks just float on the surface. A Sheepsfoot roller helps knit each layer together. Good luck, it sounds like a touchy situation.
Posted By: loretta Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 04:41 PM
I would seek the advice of a lawyer before deciding what to do or giving this guy any more money. Many lawyers will give you the initial consult free. Get the new work order in writing, he sold you a pond that wasn't fit to be a pond in the first place. You might be better off hiring someone else since he's not backing up his original work and charging you more to "fix" his work. What a nightmare.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 04:42 PM
Yeah, that was the whole impetus behind developing tracked vehicles....less ground compaction, enabling them to work in soft, or swampy bottom soils.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 04:53 PM
6" lifts are talked about on here, and using either a sheepsfoot roller or a mulit-tired scraper that has a pan full of dirt for weight. The layers need to be packed down but also "knitted" together. You are shooting for intertwining the layers, not having layers laying on top of each other like sheets of paper.

If the clay is too dry or too wet it won't compact correctly either.

I've heard the story about making a ball of clay and throwing it against the door of the pickup. If it sticks there, it's the correct consistency.

Like Sprkplug said, tracks are made to float over soft soil, not sinking in. Not exactly the thing you want for compaction.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 04:55 PM
Yea unfortunately I think the days of a firm hand shake being the contract are over.
Posted By: loretta Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 05:03 PM
Still, maybe this falls under Implied warranty of merchantability. "An implied warranty of merchantability is a warranty implied by law that goods are reasonably fit for the general purpose for which they are sold."
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 05:48 PM
I think he only has track loader, backhoe, BobCat , and dump truck. Anybody know an estimate to rent small sheep foot roller. I will prob being paying for that too. I just wonder if it was packed right to begin with if I would even be having these problems. He blames dirt but my neighbors pond don't leak a drop.
Posted By: spinnerbait Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 08:52 PM
I feel for you. Been there,done that!My first builder tried to say the clay was no good, when in reality he didn't know what he was doing. Have your gotten another builder to look at it, and give an opinion?
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 08:53 PM
No I have not.
Posted By: spinnerbait Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 09:43 PM
Unfortunatly ponds are something that won't show problems until after the bill is paid and equipment moved out. The track loader probably did very little good with compaction.
It would be expensive to redo it, but that might be your best option. I would def. not pay this guy any more money. I would get legal advice before proceeding just to see what your options are. You did take pictures of the leaks right? And would also get another builder to give an estimate to fix this guys work.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/05/12 09:54 PM
There are pics at start of thread. I have many more on this phone. I will make video of problems too.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/06/12 12:52 AM
I second the suggestion of getting another opinion from a known successful pond builder before having that guy back and paying him more $$.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/06/12 08:44 AM
Just found out last night I have friend of family who is soil expert. He is coming up this week to take a look at it. He knows all about clay and other soils. The tough part will be into core for him to look at.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/06/12 07:55 PM
If he doesn't have a coring tool, see if the local NRCS does. Some do, some don't.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/06/12 07:59 PM
Will do. I was going to use auger but I might get tool. I got a video of leak loading on YouTube now. Will have it up soon.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/06/12 11:05 PM
Leaking
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/07/12 11:55 AM
Here is a poor quality video I made with my iPhone. Notice how the whole dam is moist. 5 leaks and pond is not even half full.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De9-7RIEL5g
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/07/12 01:18 PM
I think that just reinforces that compacting the core with tracks doesn't pack it tight enough.

After seeing that I wouldn't just plate the basin, the dam needs work 'cause it's not doing it's job.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/07/12 01:49 PM
Soil expert just left. To much sand in my clay. He suggested buying that clay and redoing whole core.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/07/12 01:51 PM
Not good news, but at least now you know what's wrong and what direction to take.

What did he say about the pond basin and the soil under the pond? Do you have to plate the whole basin?
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/07/12 01:55 PM
He said just redo whole core with hauled in clay and I should be fine. The problem is in the core.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/13/12 05:50 PM
Can't find a sheepsfoot roller anywhere around me. Not sure how to get this clay packed. He only has the loader. What should I do.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/13/12 09:51 PM
Call your local Cat heavy equipment dealer and ask, or JD or......
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 08/14/12 02:54 AM
We are talking over a 100 miles both ways St. Louis or Springfield. Every rental place just has flat rollers you put water in. Our local RSC has a 31 inch walk behind vibrating sheepsfoot for $2000 a week. That is way out of budget. My wife is already on edge to fill the money pit in. Can I fill the bed of my S-10 with weight and Run it over repeatedly I'm lost I want this done right this time.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 09/13/12 06:04 AM
Dirt guy just dropped off his newer loader. No sheepsfoot around so far within 100 miles. He is cutting dam in the morning then start bringing 10 loads of red clay next week for $1000. He says it won't leak this time. I told him 6 inch lifts run over reatedly. Fingers crossed.
Posted By: liquidsquid Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 09/13/12 02:01 PM
Good luck! Keep us posted. My dam has apparently settled enough to seal itself now that I lost a few feet of water from the dry summer. It could also be I don't have enough back-pressure to punch water through any more. I now know though how irritating and stressful leaks can be.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 09/13/12 09:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Jwwann
Can't find a sheepsfoot roller anywhere around me. Not sure how to get this clay packed. He only has the loader. What should I do.


A lot of excavators don't even know what a sheepsfoot roller is -- At least around there. I got some "what" looks when I asked my prospective excavators if they had one.
Posted By: jludwig Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 09/13/12 10:05 PM
I am from the camp that you don't absolutely need a sheepsfoot roller. There are ways to build a pond without one. But it takes experience. I know of a few guys that are experienced pond builders and don't use sheepsfoot roller but their equipment allows them to have the same affect.
Posted By: FishinPal Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 09/13/12 11:58 PM
You have a point. There is between 20 to 30 ponds without dam leaks within a 5 mile radius of us and none used a sheepsfoot to compact their dams. Seen were two ponds are bring built just west of us and no sheepsfoot roller around the sites. Fellow who built ours didn't use one and our two neighbors didn't have one used on compacting their dams.Landfills around use them. Maybe it's just a regional thing when building a dam.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 09/14/12 12:09 AM
Sheepsfoot roller is insurance that the soils will be compacted to the best ability. Not every one gets or believes in insurance. Good clay soils can be compacted without sheepsfoot rollers. BUT all one has to have is one small vein of sandy or gravelly soil and if not handled properly one gets pathways between clay layers (lifts) for leaks which is why a lot of ponds leak. Water under pressure seeks the path of least resistance and once it finds a pathway the leak volume often increses due to various factors. Do a little searching here and you will discover ALOT of leaky ponds.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 09/14/12 04:02 AM
He cut straight into leak today. Leak is on left side of dam and traveling ten feet to main leak. 3 leaks in one from spot. Spot 30 feet away a leak can travel through vein like bill said . Bone dry in center core were leake was running outCrazy! Bill willl an 18 inch clay liner fix this! It would save $3500! Watch video from earlier in post and let me know? Thanks.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 10/09/12 02:12 AM
OK, I got 10, 15 ton loads of clay dumped. Video to come. One load was was purple. First for me. I'm going cheap route seeing I just had my first born child in April. Money running dry! 18" liner.
Posted By: NCMike Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 10/09/12 02:15 PM
Best of luck to you. Having a pond built is scary/risky, hopefully this fixes your issue.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 10/09/12 09:12 PM
Here is a HD video of clay that got hauled in. One load was purple. Never seen clay like that before. He is going to install liner tomorrow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ0vU0hBq...mp;feature=plcp
Posted By: loretta Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 10/09/12 11:26 PM
Your clay looks pretty dry, is that ok? I hope this works for you! Good Luck!!!
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 10/10/12 12:09 AM
We are going to put water to it.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 10/11/12 10:00 PM
He came and lined pond today and made dam much better. Got more depth now too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4wsuvzWM...mp;feature=plcp
Posted By: rmedgar Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 02/17/13 04:18 AM
Jwwann, what's the latest?
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 02/17/13 09:40 AM
Waiting for full pool. Dang drought, but water over 12 foot deep and no leaks.
Posted By: kenc Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 02/17/13 02:12 PM
You be fishing and slaying in no time. Good luck.
Posted By: rmedgar Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 02/17/13 03:47 PM
Great news. Any recent pictures?
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 02/18/13 12:43 AM



Think I took these last month. Pond never froze more than a day with black pond die. That was goal considering I already put a 100 CC and 100 HBG in. Putting in vertex soon. Had money out and ready but it looks like we are getting a tornado shelter next from Missouri Storm Shelters.

But a new Vetex will be mine. Oh yes, it will be mine!
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/18/13 08:12 PM
Finally got a decent rain yesterday and my dam is not looking even. Could this just be an optical illusion. It looks to me like one side is lower than spillways. I took a panorama picture. What do you all think?

There is a spillway on both ends with one 1 foot higher than other. He used a laser level when making dam. I hope I'm just being paranoid.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/18/13 11:00 PM
It looks like it's lower in the middle. grin

How long is the dam? Do you have garden hose that's as long as the dam is? You can use the garden hose to make a water level.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/19/13 05:22 AM
I have plenty of garden hose. How does that work?
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/19/13 05:52 AM
O.K.. Get fittings to adapt the garden hose ends (both of them) to a barbed fitting. Buy 8'-10' of clear hose that will fit on the barbed fitting. Drive a stake in the ground at each point where you want to measure. Attach a 1x2 to the stake so it's 4'-5' in the air. Cut clear plastic hose in half. Attach it to one end of the hose, and zip tie or bailing wire tie it to one of the stakes. Have the clear plastic start at ground level and go up the whole length of the cut piece.

Stretch hose out to other stake. Hold the end about 3' off of the ground and fill the whole thing with water so it goes up the clear plastic tube that is attached to the stake.

Attach the remaining clear plastic tube to the hose, and while holding the end up in the air so water doesn't run out, attach it to the other stake like you did with the first one.

Measure up from the ground to the water level. If there's not enough water in the hose, add it so you can measure the water level in both clear pieces of tubing. Providing you don't have an air bubble in the hose, the water at each end of the hose will be level with each other. Measure from water line to the ground at each stake. If the measurements are different it's not level.

Or find someone with a laser transit. wink
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/19/13 07:59 AM
I will have to try this if rain doesn't come first. Thanks Esshup.
Posted By: Reverent Horn Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/26/13 02:06 AM
This has been a very informative thread. I have a similar problem on a new 1.3 acre pond in Austin, TX and have been tossing and turning for a week trying to solve how to repair it. Of course, after it not leaking for 6 weeks, I stocked it with $800 bucks worth of fish only to find a wet area behind the dam three days later. I am searching for a way to repair it without losing all my fish, but after reading this thread, that is appearing highly unlikely. Anybody have a reputable pond repairman to recommend in central Texas?
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/26/13 04:44 AM
I lost all my fish and had to drain. I did manage to get some fish out including my pet koi that would eat from hand. The 18" clay liner seems to be holding good. Also the great quick fix bentonite just ended up costing way more money using the sprinkle method. It swelled up a foot deep and still ended up leaking. I hope the liner holds on. Don't know if I could go through all that again. Pond is now 3/4 way full. Very stressful time in my life.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/26/13 05:06 AM
What is a 36 inch pond liner?
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/26/13 11:18 AM
18" clay liner. Thanks for catching that one Cecil.
Posted By: Reverent Horn Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/26/13 01:57 PM
So am I understanding that trucking in traditional clay is a better alternative than trucking in bentonite and trying to work that in? The hole of my pond is 4.5' deep before the dam begins on one end and takes it up to 9'. My dam leaks right at the point where it meets the natural grade of the land right at that 4.5 -5' area and I don't see any leaks any where else. Of course I guess I could have a leak at the bottom and not no it as well. Good grief, ponds are fun, but they sure can be a pain.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/26/13 03:34 PM
It sounds like they didn't core in the dam when it was constucted.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/26/13 03:39 PM
I'm not sure on trucking bentonite in in large amounts. I had red clay trucked in for my repair. Turned out i had too much sand in my clay core. If you drain pond and work bentonite in you might have better luck. I just sprinkled it on top and let it sink to bottom where i thought leak was. Turned out the leak was 10 or 20 feet from where water was exiting back of damn. It had made a fisher through middle of core. Any experts have some advice?
Posted By: Reverent Horn Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/26/13 09:45 PM
esshup, I agree that it sounds like it a proper core was left out. My neighbor built the pond for me and he builds golf courses and ponds for the likes of A Palmer and J Nichlaus. I laugh now because he told me that he has never built a pond that didn't hold water. Of course, I had to be the first. It is a shame to because he designed it to look like a very large bunker and it is a thing of beauty.

I have been calling around today and found some high plasticity clay and can get it hauled in for about $240 per 18 yard load. My other neighbor has heavy equipment and I will hire him to use his dozer to spread it around the dam and deep end of the pond and then he will roll it with a sheep's foot. I feel pretty confident that will handle the dam leak, but should I spend the extra thousands it will cost to do the entire pond? I don't think my pond leaks out of the bottom, but it has never been full before either.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/26/13 10:51 PM
Can your neighbor cut a core into the dam and place it/compact it there? Tieing it into good soil past the ends of the dam.

If it was mine, and I couldn't re-core the dam, I would line the whole pond, carrying it up past the water line. My luck would be just doing part of it and have it seep around the clay in a year or 2. Then have to drain, remove all the fish that I bought and start from square 1 again.........
Posted By: Reverent Horn Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/28/13 02:35 AM
I suggested to him that we take a track hoe and dig a trench right down the middle of the entire levee length deep enough so that it is below the natural ground level. We could then pack clay into that trench. This would essentially result in building a water tight core. If we did that, then I wouldn't have to drain my pond.

He felt like it wouldn't work. Have any of you ever tried this and what do you think my results would be?
Posted By: Reverent Horn Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/28/13 02:37 AM
Originally Posted By: esshup
Can your neighbor cut a core into the dam and place it/compact it there? Tieing it into good soil past the ends of the dam.

If it was mine, and I couldn't re-core the dam, I would line the whole pond, carrying it up past the water line. My luck would be just doing part of it and have it seep around the clay in a year or 2. Then have to drain, remove all the fish that I bought and start from square 1 again.........


Can I get away with just building a core without relining the levee? If so that would be ideal as I would not have to entirely drain my pond.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/28/13 05:48 AM
If you're sure the pond is leaking from the dam or from beneath the dam, then I think digging a trench down to good clay soil beneath the dam, filling it with clay, compacting it as you go, would work. You'd need to carry that clay out past the end of the dam, tieing it into good clay all the way on the hillside at each end of the dam, above the high water line of the pond.

If you're not sure where it's leaking then plating and compacting clay over the whole pond basin up past the high water mark is the route I'd take.

If he says "What I propose to do is what will stop the leak and if it still leaks I'll come back and fix it." then disregard what I said and go with what he says.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/28/13 07:12 AM
The hard part is you must have sheepsfoot roller to do this without draining. Without a sheepsfoot you have to remove center and back. The wheels or tracks can't pack with just trench through center unless you have an extremely thick dam. You can pack both sides of trench,but not center. No room to move. Been there tried that. I will say drain and make your choice between redoing core or the famous 18" clay liner which still has not proved its self to me yet. Ask me again in at least 3 or 4 years. I'm at 3/4 pool with no leaks. I still worry my CC will dig in and make leak eventually. I'm going to remove them as soon as they make decent table fare.
Posted By: esshup Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/28/13 01:09 PM
Jwwann:

I stocked CC at 9" in the spring and fed them. In the Fall they were 18"
Posted By: Reverent Horn Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/28/13 03:42 PM
I can see where trying to pack inside a 3' trench in the middle of a dam would be extremely difficult. I don't know how I would do that. Suggestions?
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/28/13 04:09 PM
Originally Posted By: esshup
Jwwann:

I stocked CC at 9" in the spring and fed them. In the Fall they were 18"

I hope I can see the same results.
Originally Posted By: Reverent Horn
I can see where trying to pack inside a 3' trench in the middle of a dam would be extremely difficult. I don't know how I would do that. Suggestions?

I'm thinking clay liner would be your best bet. Does not sound like your dam is very thick. Do you have pics?
Posted By: otto Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/30/13 12:51 PM
Coming in late on this one but would like to add something if possible.
The core trench through the center of the dam is a good idea, but difficult to do sometimes. If the water is passing through the dam the material could be so wet it would be hard to manage. The sides will sometimes cave in and be almost impossible to get cleaned out properly.
There is a roller that will attach to a track hoe that will do a fair job of packing.
If the pond is dry and you do not know if you should plate the bottom. All you need to do is dig a hole with a pair of post hole diggers (hand held) fill it with water and see what it does that will help you make the decision.
Otto
Posted By: Reverent Horn Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 03/31/13 01:53 AM
Originally Posted By: otto
Coming in late on this one but would like to add something if possible.
The core trench through the center of the dam is a good idea, but difficult to do sometimes. If the water is passing through the dam the material could be so wet it would be hard to manage. The sides will sometimes cave in and be almost impossible to get cleaned out properly.
There is a roller that will attach to a track hoe that will do a fair job of packing.
If the pond is dry and you do not know if you should plate the bottom. All you need to do is dig a hole with a pair of post hole diggers (hand held) fill it with water and see what it does that will help you make the decision.
Otto


Otto, thanks for the input. I called you last week to talk to you about my pond but got your answering machine. I didn't leave a message. I was interested in having you look at my pond, but then discovered that you are pretty far from Austin.
Posted By: John Wann Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? - 02/20/14 07:13 PM
Just wanted to say thank you to all you guys and gal that helped me get through that nightmare. After reading through this just now. Wow! I was a wreck. You guys got me through though and still no issues. The trout are doing great too. Almost time for my daughter, nieces and nephews to come have the time of their life. I believe they will be hooked on Fishing after this one. Can't wait!
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