I figured I would follow Bill D's footsteps and create a thread to follow my progress as time goes by with my lake, so I don't spam this site with dozens of different threads.
A little history. It was named goose lake by the previous owners (sometime mid 20th century) my grandfather bought the land in the early 70s with an existing 2-3 acre lake and in 1994 they dug and dredged it to the 6.5 acre lake that is existing today. It was stocked with some type of minnow, YP, and unknown species of trout. The minnows and trout are long gone.
I just came home from a trip up there, I was there from Thursday to last night. While I was there I was able to build the crib I planned on, have the water quality tested and find the diffuser for the air pump. The diffuser must have been left in the lake for the last 10 years unused and either the diffuser or the line is clogged. I did not have much time or I would have done much more. When I go for rifle season next month I plan to cut the diffuser off the line and check if that is the problem. I also happened to find the old aerator pump and it still works! So hopefully I will have the aerator running in November for the freeze. If not it won't be such a problem because I don't plan to stock anything new until 2016.
The crib I built is not the best, I know I should have added brush to the inside but I did not have much time. I set it in 16 feet of water and the only way I got it there was the small 30lb thrust electric motor. I used 4 cinder blocks to tie it down and it still wouldn't sit on the bottom. I used 4 15' ratchet straps to hold the crib together and I used 14 logs about 10' long to build it. The height was about 4 ft
Next summer, I plan to add to the crib with another 14 logs on top of it so it will be about 8 ft tall, along with moving it to its final resting place which is a point in about 13 ft of water with a 3 or 4 ft ledge around 3 sides sort of like a peninsula. I will move it, add the brush, then add the 2nd part on top to make it to the 8 ft mark. I plan to ship my fathers 3rd lung up to use (air compressor with hoses and a regulator like scuba diving for those who don't know) I will dive the whole lake, choose spots to add more trees, set the aerator in the perfect spot, and whatever else I come up with by the time I do it.
I believe I made the decision to add SMB. Which I will need to wait until fall 2016 for unless I can find someone in the spring, if not no problem because I need to add rock/spawning beds and structure specific to them. I am also going to add a feeder for the YP and will be adding some pellet trained YP so I don't waste feed along with maybe pellet trained SMB, not sure if it's a good idea to do both though.
I also trapped the creek more, I got 2 large minnows maybe 4 or 5 inches I believe they are creek chubs, which I guess are good for bait but won't be great as a minnow base for forage since they won't reproduce. I trapped my swamp that is spring fed 2 weeks ago and only caught tadpoles so I let the chubs go in there, I felt they would have a better chance spawning in there instead of the lake, we'll see. I also got a few smaller minnows I'm working on uploading pics after this post to get an id. They may be creek chubs but some looked different then the others so let's hope I have a few BNM.
here is the minnow i beleive is not a creek chub can anyone confirm? sorry for the horrible qualities i took about 40 pictures and these were the ones that came out the best. http://s666.photobucket.com/user/Richard...ijynwu.jpg.html
the water was so cold i tried to do everything i could, the first day i was there the air temps dropped to 22 degrees in the early morning and with only a 3mil wetsuit i was freezing. im having horrible horrible problems with viruses and my internet it may take a while to get everything uploaded so please bare with me.
we had to build it on a slope here it is nearly complete, i had to take my shirt off it actually got pretty warm that day, thats my friend Sam in the back helping
here we are hauling the logs to build it near the lake, this atv was actually my 12th birthday present. my dad chose the right one! shes a beast and even with 6 logs still ran like a champ
Looks like you are in for a lot of fun! I am looking forward to following along on your project. I will let the pros comment on your pics as I am still new at this as well.
Well its been a little longer than a month and i haven't been up north but that doesn't mean i haven't planning. I recently got pulled off running the front end loader (Cat 924 specifically) and am now doing estimating and Ive been so busy, i try to get on here as much as i can but have been slacking.
Ive been talking with my cousin about dredging the lake, and i believe i have the right idea for it. the spot i want to dredge is about 150 feet off shore and 23 ft deep. Im not sure how deep i will be able to go but im thinking im just gunna bust my butt for 2 days constantly pumping. our target is 30 ft but id like to get to 35 (most likely wont happen)
Im going to build an airlift dredge. I thought you guys would be interested so i decided to write this post. Im considering using a 2 or 3 inch pvc pipe to run from the spot ill be dredging to about 20 ft off the bank(about a 10-12 degree rise) where ill pound a 12 ft 4x4 3 or 4 ft into the bank in about 5 or 6 feet of water, that will leave me with about 3 or 4 ft out of water (which if i need too i can nail a 2x4 to that to give it a couple feet higher elevation) ill lay the high end of pipe on top of this with a 90 degree bend facing down. this 90 will pour into a 3 inch pipe that is vertically 2 or 3 ft high for head pressure with either two 45s or one 90 with more 3 inch pipe going to about 30 feet on land, where ill dig a hole with our mini excavator that it will drain into. On the airlift part, ill tie in our aerator pump at 3 to 8 ft above the suction inlet to keep it as close to the bottom and get the most flow/suction. the aerator pump will have a valve that i can slow or speed up the air flow into the airlift.
i even built a to scale model! it cost me 6.50 without the air pump (my dad had one laying around) Here is the video to the model working. its a 1:10 scale so instead of the pipe being 24 ft deep it is 28.8 inches deep with a 4.8 inch rise and a run of 14.5 ft long. this one also had a 11 degree rise.
There are a couple variables im looking at, like i may want to add a 22 degree bend to the suction side so it points more towards the bottom, i may build a housing unit so it can sit on the bottom without me touching it for a couple hours, and have it slowly sink as it pulls the sand out. i may use our little aluminum boat with a stand built on it instead of the 4x4s to give it a better degree of slope (but that means i would have to swim from shore to the boat or the suction part of dredge), i may go with a 3 or 4 inch pipe to increase flow but i think i like the 2 inch best. all in all i think this project will come out a little less than $500 with us already owning the air pump.
what do you guys think? 10 brains are better than one and i only started drawing this up about 3 days ago so i am sure it will change a lot before this summer (northern michigan water temps are not fun!)
on another note its been 7 weeks and my water quality tests still are not back. They originally quoted me it would be back by November 15 and ive called about 5 times and they just keep saying theres 1 more thing to do and theyll send it to me... i have a feeling its a lost cause :-(
Just a thought, Diver Cody is a member here and he is a pro on air lift dredges. I would shoot him a PM just to get his 2 cents in case he misses this post.
So I've been doing a take off on how much money it will cost me for this dredge, once I finalize I'll make a post explaining all of it.. but I'm looking here at about 45$ savings if I use electrical conduit instead of sched 40 for buying 25 2 inch by 10 ft pipes. I don't think they will be more pressurized than 10 psi max.. does anyone know of problems using elect conduit instead of schedule 40 to move water?
I am not that familiar with joining sections of conduit (I assume you mean the gray plastic). If the size tolerances on conduit are as tight as the PVC so you can get a water tight seal, I see no problem as long as you don't need the rigidity of the PVC.
I have been talking with him over the past week or so about his system Bill D. Thanks you for the redirect though(I would have forgot to mention it as I am de-watering one of my ponds and babysitting the pump)
He wants to move the material so far that in order to get a collapse proof hose of that length and size it would get costly quick. So I have been throwing ideas back and forth with him on a PVC system. I often try to take into account things people may have on hand. Richard has a rotary vane air compressor so an airlift will be more in budget. Only issue with airlift systems is they do a great job of moving material vertically just not laterally unless you can get it into the current stream in large bodies of water. Like the Gulf of Mexico .
well i finally got my water test results back, they look alright. the lady that came out took two tests in the lake one in the wetland and one in the small creek we have (~2ft wide). The lake looks rather healthy and i am satisfied there other than the more than likely problem of winter D.O... She mentioned that the wetland has a Tannic Acid problem, she said its a little higher than normal which i counted from google earth 250 pine trees in the immediate area. i have attached the results for anyone interested.
Warning: Rant incoming. I had what i believe a really good idea to enhance the lake. I thought it would be great to dig a 1 or 2 ft channel from the lake to the three small ponds located in the swamp. so that lead me to a lot of research over the last week about what i can and cant do without permits and realized i cant do a thing without one. on the DNR and MDEQ websites they have a guide to general permits and i cant even put artificial structure in my lake without a permit!!!! what is that bs. on top of that i would need a permit to pull those pine trees out of the swamp, i would need a permit to excavate in the swamp (kind of agree with this one) and they give you two permit choices for maintenance dredging of your own private lake! a small permit below 25 cubic yards and another permit for 25 to 100 cubic yards, and you can only pull one permit every 5 years!!!! on top of that i have heard some stories about how hard it is to get the correct permits pulled. now i understand that the DNR/DEQ are looking out for the environments best interests but i feel they also slow the pace of restoration and enhancement with all these laws and permit requirements. instead of me being able to hop on the excavator we keep on the property and restore/enhance the wetland and lake to what it was originally 30 years ago, i would have to spend thousands of dollars, get water quality testers to monitor, and wetland and environmental consultants to help me push my case just to restore to what it was before! (used to be a 2.5 acre lake with 16 acres of wetlands touching it, but now is 6.5 acre lake with 12 acres of wetland and a 100 ft buffer between the two. i figure i will research some more over the holidays and in January get in touch with a consultant that has navigated this type of project before before i push forward with trying to pull a permit.
Just saw your post series now and the "potential" issues with the permits and the process. I have the same issues and concerns related to my current 26 acre pond and a new 1-1.5 acre pond that I would like to build. I'm currently researching options for assistance in obtaining a permit to build the smaller pond. I also want to dredge out parts of the 26 acre pond but at this point I feel there is a better chance of obtaining the new pond permit so I'm concentrating on that project for now. There is no way I'm going to approach the Michigan DEQ for a permit without professional help as once that genie is let out of the bottle it will never go back in. I know of multiple pond owners who have been shut down for doing anything related to maintenance or improvements on their ponds as in no maintenance dredging of any kind. A local guy who has been involved in many pond installations and maintenance projects has said it is getting to the point that he recommends against folks digging ponds due to the lack of permit application success and the overall hassle of the process. He also says that if you apply for a permit and are denied for something like maintenance dredging they will observe your site for years to make sure you don't dredge without a permit and if you do then the real problems start. I should know more here in the next few weeks with a couple of the places I'm researching the permit process with and will let you know. I'll also pm you my email and phone number if you are interested in comparing notes. Thanks.
Frank, the above mentioned situation is most likely going on in many states. I am with you, where here in the south (including Louisiana) we do not see this type of Goberment intrusion in our everyday lives. It re-enforces my decision made early in my life to stay in the south. I hope Bryan and Richard stay the course and win out over an overgrowing and controlling Guberment. This is why I am still concerned over the EPA involvement in our ponds.
Would this be the same Texas where so many ponds/lakes went dry these past few years, or has that already been forgotten? The same Texas where adding grass carp means a long, drawn out process of paperwork, site visits, and governmental intervention on a state level?
Where I'm at, it rains fairly regularly and adding GC is no more complicated than asking the guy on the fishtruck to please dump em' in.
Yep, we have to apply for a permit. To get the permit we have to build a fish excluder, commonly called hog wire, to make sure they don't escape. We have to send a picture of the excluder to TPWD prior to getting the permit..
Would this be the same Texas where so many ponds/lakes went dry these past few years, or has that already been forgotten? The same Texas where adding grass carp means a long, drawn out process of paperwork, site visits, and governmental intervention on a state level?
Where I'm at, it rains fairly regularly and adding GC is no more complicated than asking the guy on the fishtruck to please dump em' in.
There's good and bad everywhere you go.
I hear ya Sparkie, But all I had to do to get a grass carp permit was to fill in the request and mail it. I received the permit within a week. To easy, But I agree with you on the droughts, my pond would have been a lot lower if I did not have a water well. I live in Louisiana, but own more property and pay more property taxes in Texas, kids were born in Texas so, Proud to be from Texas.
I undderstand Tracy, and it's good to be proud of one's state. I just can't help but smile at the lengths to which some take things, however. I understand that there is a strong Lonestar contingent here on the forum, but have to laugh when even Spongebob's creators decided to poke a little fun....
Sent you a PM with information on professional assistance with your permit. I'll be planning my first meeting with this group after the snow goes away here and I can get some good pictures of the proposed site. I'm interested to see what they have to say. Thanks.
Would this be the same Texas where so many ponds/lakes went dry these past few years, or has that already been forgotten? The same Texas where adding grass carp means a long, drawn out process of paperwork, site visits, and governmental intervention on a state level?
Where I'm at, it rains fairly regularly and adding GC is no more complicated than asking the guy on the fishtruck to please dump em' in.
There's good and bad everywhere you go.
It's a lot more complicated than that. legally, in Indiana. A permit must be secured, and a quarterly report must be submitted to the state listing size, number and location/gps coordinates of all grass carp stocked within Indiana.....technically now, a permit must also be secured through the Indiana BOAH as well.....
The GC must also be individually blood tested and certified triploidy by a US Fish and Wildlife agent as well....
I believe in 2016, only one permit is needed in Indiana. No fish hauling permit is required. At least that's my take on it, I could be wrong. Rural King had it's lobbyists working overtime. They will be selling fish through their stores this year.
It's a lot more complicated than that. legally, in Indiana. A permit must be secured, and a quarterly report must be submitted to the state listing size, number and location/gps coordinates of all grass carp stocked within Indiana.....technically now, a permit must also be secured through the Indiana BOAH as well.....
The GC must also be individually blood tested and certified triploidy by a US Fish and Wildlife agent as well....
Does the burden fall upon you, the supplier, or me, the purchaser? I've never done anything other than contact the hatchery and place an order.
I believe in 2016, only one permit is needed in Indiana. No fish hauling permit is required. At least that's my take on it, I could be wrong. Rural King had it's lobbyists working overtime. They will be selling fish through their stores this year.
Yep only an aquaculture permit required, which is for grass carp and any other species not on the list of regularly allowed species. And yeah as Rex said you need to file quarterly reports for the grass carp.
Scott, did you hear Rural King had something to do with it? Randy Lang of the INDNR told us at an Indiana Aquaculture meeting, back when governor Pence first became governor, Pence wanted to get rid of all permits. I assumed he was the reason. I believe it is in court though.
It's a lot more complicated than that. legally, in Indiana. A permit must be secured, and a quarterly report must be submitted to the state listing size, number and location/gps coordinates of all grass carp stocked within Indiana.....technically now, a permit must also be secured through the Indiana BOAH as well.....
The GC must also be individually blood tested and certified triploidy by a US Fish and Wildlife agent as well....
Does the burden fall upon you, the supplier, or me, the purchaser? I've never done anything other than contact the hatchery and place an order.
Burden is on the supplier and/or whomever hauls the fish except for supliers that have set something up with the INDNR and BOAH. Of course grass carp have to be delivered by the supplier.
When I purchased fish from a Michigan supplier he was set up by BOAH to sell fish to customers in Michigan and Indiana where the customer transferred then back to their ponds in oxygen bags. No responsibility to the purchaser but the receipt was your paper trail.
That's what I thought also. And that was the reason for my initial post, comparing GC additions in Texas and Indiana. I think Dave mentioned applying for a permit, and building an excluder. I just pay the supplier and add the fish. What the supplier goes through to get the GC hasn't impacted me thus far.
That's what I thought also. And that was the reason for my initial post, comparing GC additions in Texas and Indiana. I think Dave mentioned applying for a permit, and building an excluder. I just pay the supplier and add the fish. What the supplier goes through to get the GC hasn't impacted me thus far.
Indiana permits are easy to navigate, and free, but the supplier should not be letting you stock your own GC...
I believe in 2016, only one permit is needed in Indiana. No fish hauling permit is required. At least that's my take on it, I could be wrong. Rural King had it's lobbyists working overtime. They will be selling fish through their stores this year.
Yep only an aquaculture permit required, which is for grass carp and any other species not on the list of regularly allowed species. And yeah as Rex said you need to file quarterly reports for the grass carp.
Scott, did you hear Rural King had something to do with it? Randy Lang of the INDNR told us at an Indiana Aquaculture meeting, back when governor Pence first became governor, Pence wanted to get rid of all permits. I assumed he was the reason. I believe it is in court though.
The letter I got from IDNR said the DNR had been sued and the court found IDNR lacked statutory authority to require a hauling/transport permit. The letter went on to say, expect the law to change and a permit to be required in the near future. It will probably cost now, to cover the law suit...
In defense of the great state of Texas, they have a very loose policy on new ponds. Last I heard, anything under 200 acre-feet does not require a permit.
So a 10 acre lake with average 20 foot depths is okay, or 20 acres average 10 foot depths.
Considering the radical differences in precipitation between east and west Texas, in my opinion this is actually too loose once you get much west of Fort Worth. Fortunately my little pond won't come close to 200 acre feet, even if I expand it a bit.
Indiana permits are easy to navigate, and free, but the supplier should not be letting you stock your own GC...
Very true. And they don't. But I've never applied nor received any permit to stock GC, nor do I need an excluder. Cash changes hands, fish go in. Done. I suppose the supplier needs a permit, but that's their end, not mine.
Maybe I just have a great working relationship with my suppliers?
From what I know, Indiana does not require excluders like Texas does. I don't know if it is just for ponds in the Lake Fork tributary area or if it's other areas too.
Cecil, I heard that from a person that was talking to TSC about getting pond supplies in their stores.
When I put in a request for Grass Carp to the TPW I had to fill out a one or maybe two page form (supplied by Todd Overton). Form requested location of pond by giving directions to drive to the pond or gps. I had to draw a picture of the pond (and I am not an artist) so I drew a rectangle, and the form asked how the pond drainage was set up. (I think there were choices, like spillway or syphon etc.) I picked syphon. I remember it asking about where the pond water went after it passed through the syphon. Choices were given on the form. In my case I chose pasture. That's was all there was to it. I received the permit with no comments from the TPW about any form of excluders. Excluders were NOT required for me to receive the permit. I think it was all about where the pond drains, if near a river or such. And I am one mile from the only Natural Lake in Texas. These carp are Sterile !! And Frank, There is no such thing as "too lose government intrusion into our ponds in Texas".
From what I know, Indiana does not require excluders like Texas does. I don't know if it is just for ponds in the Lake Fork tributary area or if it's other areas too.
Cecil, I heard that from a person that was talking to TSC about getting pond supplies in their stores.
Now I'm confused? Is it TSC, or Rural King that supposedly might be selling fish? I will say this much, Rural King has the best price on Cutrine that I've ever seen.
What's an excluder? Barrier so they won't swim out of the pond?
There was one suppler set up at one of the big box stores Here in Indiana a while back, that got caught allowing grass carp to be picked up by the customers, and taken back to their ponds.
FWIW my Illinois supplier adds this foot note to GC on their price list:
"$10 per KSH stocking Fee"
I assume that means I would need to pay 10 bucks and they take care of everything? I don't know what KSH means.
I have no clue what KSH is either, or why there is an extra charge in ILL.
I think I may have figured out what KSH means, Keystone Hatchery. I now assume that Keystone has to do the actual stocking into the pond and they charge an extra $10 fee per fish for this.
No, but then again it depends on the size of the order. It's dang cheap if only a few fish are ordered. If a person were to order 2 GC, and it took 40 - 60 miles round trip to deliver them, it's a loss for Keystone.
I'm changing prices this Spring. Jones now has a $300 minimum fish order size for free delivery.
I've had people call wanting me to stock one grass carp and they were 45 miles away. What should the price of that fish be??
No, but then again it depends on the size of the order. It's dang cheap if only a few fish are ordered. If a person were to order 2 GC, and it took 40 - 60 miles round trip to deliver them, it's a loss for Keystone.
I'm changing prices this Spring. Jones now has a $300 minimum fish order size for free delivery.
I've had people call wanting me to stock one grass carp and they were 45 miles away. What should the price of that fish be??
Understood.
IYOO do you think the fear of triploid grass carp in public waters is justified, hence the fact that they have to be delivered?
Delivered or not, floods do happen. Since they are all certified, I am not that concerned about here in Indiana. Since Texas is so close to where a lot of grass carp are raised, I can see their concern about ensuring that all GC are contained and Triploid. They have more frequent flooding there with greater potential for escapees.
Texas does not have the restrictions that we do, they can go to the supplier and pick up the grass carp.
FWIW my Illinois supplier adds this foot note to GC on their price list:
"$10 per KSH stocking Fee"
I assume that means I would need to pay 10 bucks and they take care of everything? I don't know what KSH means.
I have no clue what KSH is either, or why there is an extra charge in ILL.
I think I may have figured out what KSH means, Keystone Hatchery. I now assume that Keystone has to do the actual stocking into the pond and they charge an extra $10 fee per fish for this.
I don't know why They are charging an extra $10/fish for a free permit. Illinois started requiring "Restricted species transportation permits" in July, 2015, that are issued through Illinois Dept of Agriculture.
FWIW my Illinois supplier adds this foot note to GC on their price list:
"$10 per KSH stocking Fee"
I assume that means I would need to pay 10 bucks and they take care of everything? I don't know what KSH means.
I have no clue what KSH is either, or why there is an extra charge in ILL.
I think I may have figured out what KSH means, Keystone Hatchery. I now assume that Keystone has to do the actual stocking into the pond and they charge an extra $10 fee per fish for this.
Update:
Just got the 2016 Fish Price List. The $10 charge was on the 2015 list but is not on this one.
i live in sw michigan.i had the front of my pond dredged out , got the permit from the deq .they have a 7 year limit as to when they can check on the job done and see if it meets their standard.they are very powerful people and i don't like dealing with them i am glad the 7year period is over with. they don't tell you when they are coming to look at the site they just come.they act like they own it.muskrats are destroying my banks now ...it is getting to be a mess
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The same Texas where adding grass carp means a long, drawn out process of paperwork, site visits, and governmental intervention on a state level?