... finally found one I like for the chainsaw.


The little valve works nice! No drips!!


Fill up these little cans that work nice for filling the chainsaw.


This Old White Oak made me nervous, but it's finally down. Stihl MS310, 20" yellow chain.

That should make some firewood!

Wow thats a big tree stump. Soft Maple or cotton wood?

Just putting in a set of rings in my stihl 210. Only had 50 psi of compression.

The mighty oak bites the dust. Wow!

Was there a length of trunk worth saving for lumber?

I have a tree I need to take down not quite that big. How do you go about splitting those big slices into firewood? By hand?

White Oak.

Still a bunch more to cut and split from that tree, but have ~ 6 full cord from that one split and stacked. Bunch more to go tho, but ain't doing any more this year.

Older tree and about only good for firewood.

By hand, not a chance! My brother splits a bunch that way. Sister has a 35 ton log splitter we used.

JKB,
I bought one of those new gas cans for my father in law. I liked the design where the jug can be tipped over the hole without spilling, and the valve can be used to let it out slowly as needed. The valve claims to have a system engineered in it so that it will automatically shut off if the valve senses fluid coming up the tube. This means you could put it in a small engine fill tube and just let er rip and it will stop on its own when full. I haven't tested that feature but that would be handy!

They sure jacked up the price on those cans due to those fancy valves though!

Also, do you know why people would buy those metal cans of premixed gas and oil? Is it a better product? or people don't feel comfortable mixing their own anymore? I look at those on the shelf and have no idea why they sell those!

Nice weather for cutting wood for December though!

I'm with you on those little cans of gas but I guess I can see it for a guy that needs to run his chainsaw a couple hours a year to clean up a downed limb. Why have a gallon or two of mixed gas sitting around getting old.

I am hoping to get out next week to cut some wood. Forecast is for up to 3 inches of rain this weekend and 60 degrees but temp is supposed to drop back to normal high 20's for next week so I'm hoping the ground will firm up some.

I scrounged a few of the old type (1990's) plastic gas containers and use a funnel to avoid spills. We have a nearby station that sells non ethanol gasoline. I put stabil in that.

They also have those little cans of fuel without the oil, for four cycle use. It contains no alcohol, is often a higher octane than regular unleaded, and is supposed to stay fresh for a longer period of time. Here's a bigger container:

http://www.zoro.com/vp-small-engine-fuel...mp;gclsrc=aw.ds

A question on octane Spark since you brought it up. I have been told high octane fuel has an advantage in high compression engines but you are basically throwing your money away purchasing high octane for engines that are not high performance. True?

CC - I really like this design for a can you can lay over like this with no leaks. Not sure if it has a fill stop mode tho, but another handle on the back side would make it nice.

Got this one at TSC in Fremont, and it was a bit more than a standard rig, but thought I would give it a try. I like it!

I bought the higher octane premix to fire my chainsaws up after sitting for a few years. After that, went to 93 in the red can.

Be careful if you buy pre-mix in the cans, because that stuff evaporates sitting on the shelf in the stores, and may end up with much less than you thought you purchased.

That little Jonesred can I posted is really sweet tho. Fills easily with no mess, and pours easily as well. Little gizmo under the cap that makes this work well. It was worth the 8 bucks.

If I get ambitious, may just go cut the rest of that Oak up into 12' chunks and stack it on some pine rails.

Have a nice fireplace and wood stove in the house, but dad's lungs are shot, so it's paying for propane.

Essentially, yes. Octane is a measure of gasoline's resistance to detonation. Octane in and of itself, does not provide a horsepower increase. Higher octane fuel does allow an engine builder to utilize techniques and components that produce higher horsepower, however.

And, compression ratios on small engines are slowly creeping up, so higher octane fuel is making a showing. In addition, higher octane fuel is more likely to be ethanol free....and that's a huge plus where small engines are concerned.

Thanks Sparkie! Next time I see a guy with a rusty 1976 Pinto pumping high octane into his buggy at the gas station I can confidentaly say, "It ain't gonna help!"

Had a couple Cuda's that would pull the front wheels off the ground launching from a stop light. Torco racing fuel. Fun times, but expensive!!!

Tony, I'm not understanding the "resistance to detonation". How does that work?

$75 for a 5 gallon can of gas? PT Barnum would love that. There is a convenience store in Bowie that sells non ethanol at only a slightly higher price. I buy it for my saws and yard equipment. Or, they say it is non ethanol. I was told by an old time tractor mechanic that if I pour some corn syrup gas into a jar and set it in the sun that I could see the stuff separate. I haven't tried it.

Dave, Corn syrup gas?? I thought that stuff made from corn syrup was made for drinking, Corn liquor moonshine? High Octane, creates a blue flame or so i have been told

Tracy

I'm with you! I have been scrounging old gas cans for years. Hard to believe the feds could possibly regulate a gas can but the epa did I consider the non vented cans a serious safety and spillage issue (forget about freedom). Seeing as I spill more gas with non vented cans than I did with a vented, more chance of getting gas where I don't want it. Forget about trying to pour fuel from odd positions, all but impossible with non vented cans.

http://lfb.org/how-government-wrecked-the-gas-can/

Can't lie though, I do kind of like this can below. Same idea as the OP's can, convenience in pouring.


http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200422211_200422211?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Fuel%20Transfer%20%2B%20Lubrication%20%3E%20Fuel%20Nozzles&utm_campaign=Flo%20n%2C%20go&utm_content=169476&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=169476&gclid=Cj0KEQiAqK-zBRC2zaXc8MOiwfIBEiQAXPHrXtXXkShDw45257JvlIhLLJP1r-zlKu_pwCjM4d9W8XAaAqWz8P8HAQ

Back when I was in high school around 1969 or so, I has a Honda 175 motorcycle. I could tell the difference in gas quality by its top end speed. The engine and its size and horsepower seemed very sensitive to different grades of gasoline. At the time the very best performer (and I checked performance often was Texaco Sky Chief (I think that was its name for its premium gas). Next best was Skelly premium. At the time we still used a number of gas tractors on the farm and Skelly dealer was our tank gas supplier (regular of course). I remember discussing my motorcycle results with him and at that time he told me that Skelly regular was 98+ octane. That was regular. I forget what permium was.

So that gives a comparison of then and now. 98 octane for regular back then where even premium does not get there now.

Used to have a couple of Dodge cars in the family, both 318's. My brother kept very good gas mileage records for quite a while when he was driving back and forth to school. In that particular car at that time the mileage he got from premium increased enough in mileage to just offset the higher cost. He ran premium all the time because not only did he gain enough mileage to pay for it, anyone who ran a car in that era knows that if you set the timing according to spec, engines would pre-detonate or knock under heavy acceleration. The premium did not do it. I always retarded the timing on the 318's just enough so they did not knock everytime you stepped down on the accelerator (had several of the engines over the years in cars, pickups and one big truck). I remembered the movie we watched in auto mechanics class of what happens to pistons under prolonged periods of pre-detonation.

My point is, the very best gas we can buy at the pump today is not even close to what the cheapest gas was back then as far as octane rating. Fortunately computers can adjust timing today in modern engines to account for low fuel quality. I run premium in all motorcycles (some require it in the manual, some don't. I think wifes new Can-Am Spyder calls for it) as well as all small engines. The cars and pickups get the cheap stuff.

Ethanol today is primarily used as an oxygenate. The refineries can produce higher levels of other fuels (like Diesel) by changing the crack spread to favor them and this results in lower octane gasoline. The high octane of the ethanol is then uses to upgrade this low octane gasoline to minimum standards of 86 or 87. By using ethanol, the refinery can increase yield of higher value products thus increasing profitability.

The thing I hate about any of the new cans is the flimsy safety spout will break in six months or a year, rendering the high cost jug almost useless. Very hard to find replacement spouts with the right thread. We keep at least a dozen gas cans around at any one time to refuel welders, compressors, pumps etc. Gets rather expensive to replace them when they don't last yet the jug itself is almost indestructible. Not counting the ones that blow out the back of pickup/service trucks. Empty gas cans WILL blow out the back of service trucks. Over and over. My guys are not as careful as I am about that because the replacement does not come out of their pocket.

Detonation is an uncontrolled or extremely rapid expansion of the flame front inside the combustion chamber. Ideally, you want the air-fuel mixture to ignite via the spark plug, and have the flame front expand and move evenly throughout the combustion chamber, reaching a point of maximum cylinder pressure just as the piston starts down the cylinder on the power stroke.

When detonation occurs, this smooth expansion is interrupted by a portion of the air-fuel mixture igniting ahead of the approaching flame front, due to the increasing temps and pressure. Similar to how a diesel relies on the heat of cylinder pressure to ignite the diesel fuel. Now you have two flame fronts expanding simultaneously, and when they collide you get that ringing noise characteristic of detonation.

Since high compression ratios produce greater power and are simple to manufacture, manufacturers like to employ extra squeeze to try and wring as much oomph out of their engines as they can. The limiting factor has always been the fuel...too low of an octane, and the fuel pre-ignites, defeating the purpose. Higher octane fuels are more resistant to self ignition due to heat and pressure, so they allow for the greater compression ratios resulting in more power.

To expand on what snrub wrote, if an engine is experiencing detonation, higher octane fuels will likely result in better mileage/power. If detonation is not occurring, there will be no mileage/power increase due to switching fuel.

Alcohol is hygroscopic, and will "attract" water. This doesn't mean you can set an unopened gas can outdoors overnight and gain an extra gallon of liquid in the morning, but yes it will phase separate and can leave your fuel container with a layer of gasoline sitting on a layer of alcohol/water, if allowed to sit undisturbed for a long enough period of time. Two cycle engines often use a weighted fuel filter in their fuel tanks, to allow for all orientation usage. Think chainsaws, and how they are turned several ways during operation. If your saw has been sitting, and you grab it up and go, that weighted fuel line may be sitting in pure alcohol, with no lubrication whatsoever. IF you can get it to start that way, a scored cylinder/piston combination is likely the result. Usually they won't start, however.

When you pick up your gas cans or saws, give em' a shake before putting them to use.

Why they can get such huge horspower out of ethanol engines. High octane equals the ability to use high compression and the alcohol also runs cooler.

If engines could be made to be run only on E85, there could be some excellent ethanol engines. Problem is they also have to run on plain old gasoline so they have to be de-tuned to run on either.

Many people mistakenly think BTU is the only measure of a fuels ability to produce horsepower. But an alcohol engine built for alcohol can produce drastically more horsepower (albeit while using more fuel).

I for one like Ethanol. I think it is a vast improvement to using the oxygenates that have now been outlawed because of environmental concerns. Brazil has run high levels of alcohol for years (although they would not have cold weather starting issues like we might have in northern latitudes).

I think alcohol is a great alternative when it is NOT produced from food stocks. But when you factor in the emissions concerns created by the agriculture needed to grow those food stocks, it's not as clean as some believe. And yes, I believe you need half again as much alcohol compared to gasoline to produce the same amount of energy?

I will throw an interesting note in here. Two years ago I learned you cannot use premium fuel in your saw at high altitude. My buddy and I were planning on doing a ton of cutting in Colorado and brought our saws and 93 fuel from GA and his from IA. We just could not keep the saws running. They were new Stihls with the intellicarb and would only run for a couple minutes and then would stop and wouldn't restart. Like they had run out of fuel. Open the fuel tank to check and gas would actually overflow out of the hole somehow. Finally after a couple days we went to town thinking the saws had a problem. We talked to the Stihl guy and he said we were boiling the gas!! He said you can't use high octane up there and said even low octane could have problems that high (10,000'+). He told us we needed AV Gas (which was confusing because AV Gas is even higher octane) or that fuel in the metal cans. We tracked some AV Gas down and never had another problem. I have run AV Gas in most of my stuff ever since, especially at the cabin. No need for stabil in it. Those saws, weedeaters, generators, etc can sit up there 10 months with AV Gas and it will start right up like you just left it yesterday.

Tim good article thanks for posting. Just yesterday I went to sears looking for a gas can with a vent. I was thinking surely they'll have a decent can. Seeing as how the cheap 5 gallon can I bought from Walmart was not vented and the plastic spout fell off as I was trying to pour, causing gas to go all over except in my riding mower. It's been more than a few years since I've been in the market for a gas can so I had no idea the EPA had found another way to jack us around.

By the way the can that you linked too at Northern Tool, with the gas pump looking spout...terrible reviews. Seems the pump stops working after just a few uses. On a good note that 5 gallon "water" can they have, with a vent, looks like a great deal. If you're in the market for a water can, that is:-)

FYI most places sell replaceable spouts for those new gas cans. You can buy a new, old school spout to replace the new and improved spout on your brand new can haha!

I would wager that it wasn't an octane issue that caused your problems, but rather it was the oxygenated fuel burning hot.. AV fuel burns somewhat slower than automotive gasoline, some equipment likes it, while others need an ignition timing advance to really utilize it properly. Trouble is, most small engines have no provision to adjust timing.

FWIW it's pretty easy to add a vent to the "new and improved" cans. I saw this on youtube....Drill a half inch hole and pull thru a valve stem (like you use in tubeless tires).

Those kits I referenced come with a vent for the cans also. Drill the hole and shove it in. I have done it to all my cans.

That would be great. Are they sold as replacements for gas cans or for water cans?

I saw on one site that the new cans have a different thread for the spout than the pre 2009 cans so you can't just put an old spout on a new can. Is that true?

They have a universal kit at TSC, I think for around $20.00 to adapt the new cans.

I take the spout off the can and use a big funnel when I put diesel in my tractor. Much quicker.

Yeah, used to be you could buy the whole can for around ten bucks. Now the spout costs more than the can.

Thing of it is, no. 2 corn is animal feed and it becomes high protein animal feed once it goes through the distillation process. Many plants are now even extracting the corn oil out in the process. So the only component used to make the ethanol is the starch. That part we farmers get accused of making everyone in the nation fat because of all the high fructose corn syrup going into foods.

So don't look at it like the corn is taking food out of anyone's mouth (we are now actually producing all the corn needed for other uses AND all the ethanol industry needs so there is no shortage), you could look at it like we are keeping people from getting fat. We get blamed for doing something wrong one way or the other so it doesn't really matter.

The best thing though (besides cleaner air), is not a single American soldier has been lost fighting over a corn field. I don't think the same could be said for the other major component in gasoline.

Facts about ethanol

"Some OEMs have even used E85 to increase horsepower. Swedish carmaker, Koenigsegg, equipped its CCXR model with a 4.7-liter twin supercharged engine that can run on either E85 or E100. On normal gasoline, the CCXR produces 806 bhp. On E85, this is boosted to an amazing 1,018 bhp,"

I don't for a moment consider ethanol to be taking food away from anyone. I do wish those that claim such a great environmental benefit comes from its usage would consider the impact resulting from the farming procedures needed to see the crop to harvest. It seems the studies always concentrate on burning the stuff in an engine, and never on what's needed to get it to that state.

I think a study that compared the environmental impact beginning from obtaining and refining petroleum all the way to burning it in the engine, to planting, growing, and harvesting the crop AND turning it into ethanol and burning that in the same engine, would be interesting.

I've pretty much gone to the VP racing jugs for gas. EZ-POUR spouts go on the older/smaller cans.

Semi off original topic but has anyone ever made a larger gas tank for a small engine using an old gas can some tubing and say a hose barb?


Like this one:(except with o-rings or some form of sealant)

Esshup posted some info on a bigger gas tank he made for a trash pump several months back. Maybe he will see this post and provide the info again.

Try this instead:



drill a 1/2" hole in a plastic tank, insert the grommet, and push in the steel fitting. The fitting expands the grommet and forms a leak-proof seal. Put the hole in the bottom if you need a gravity feed, or install it in the top if you have a pump. Connect a shorter, pickup hose to the smaller barb with a weighted filter in that case.

Standard stuff for lawnmower tanks.

Oh Crap! I just got 70 Uni-Seals in different flavors.

Grommet on the fuel tank for my generator puked and local service places said no can get.

McMaster Carr has buttloads and craploads of these for a more reasonable price. No equation needed

Sheesh, talk about a huge lingering brain fart!

Has been done numerous times. Pick the data you want to get the results you want.

Anti-ethanol use 1980's wet mill production figures for conversion of corn to alcohol, disregard any credit for the feed portion of the corn returned to the animal feed market which amounts to around a quarter to a third of the value of each bushel of corn, use ag production numbers twenty years old when we ran tractors that made 12 horsepower hours per gallon of fuel instead of 18 like current tractors and used lots more tillage and intensive methods than now, use corn yields from days gone by instead of current corn yields. All you have to do is use the right figures and show that ethanol is net negative energy efficient. Oh, and I almost forgot my favorite one, count the energy radiated by the sun as part of its energy usage.

If you are pro-ethanol, you use the latest data from the most efficient dry mills as production, use modern hybrid yields, give the sun a pass and figure it is going to radiate whether we use the energy or not, use modern ag production expenses of inputs, etc.

Ethanol quit getting any subsidies several years back (initially some cost share money to get plants built and a blenders credit for the ones who blended the ethanol with gas - that is all gone and has been for a while). So if ethanol is net negative energy, the marketplace will sort that out in pretty short order. Unless it is useful for something other than just its BTU content, say something like an oxygenate that's needed to make cheap gas usable in engines.

It is about like every other damn thing in this world anymore. There are no facts or scientists. Just people with agendas. Like the old saying goes, figures lie and liars figure.

Edit: Here is at least one source of energy efficiency. Lots of others available with a search, both pro and con. Choose the agenda you wish to believe. net energy efficiency ethanol

"A 2006 University of California Berkeley study, after analyzing six separate studies, concluded that producing ethanol from corn uses marginally less petroleum than producing gasoline.[2]"

Wish I had known, I have several of these things and would've gladly sent you a few spares!

Thanks for posting that sprkplug. I would have only thought of an old school way with a fitting with seals on each side (like we use on big water tanks). Sometimes it is just a matter of knowing what is available to do the job.

I still like to just go through and browse a hardware, electric supply or plumbing store. Not that I need any of the stuff, but sometimes just knowing what is available that I might never realize existed that I MIGHT need some day.

Yep.

And just for the record, I'm not anti-ethanol. But the number one job I did for years in the shop, right up until a week ago when I locked the door for good, was replace carburetors due to fuel related damage. If an engine is built for ethanol, it's wonderful. Cars, trucks, built in the last 20 years, great. Small engines built last month, not so much. I think I read where you use premium fuel in your own small engine powered equipment...ethanol free premium?

In truth I shouldn't complain, as much of the trouble experienced in the small engine industry is due to lack of knowledge on the part of the engine's owner. How granddad used to do it won't fly these days. Plus, ethanol related issues paid my bills for years, so it's all good.

I do the same thing!

I really like you did not say browse some big box store. I have used the same hardware store every time I can for the last 30+ years. It's not a big store but they seem to always have what I need. Just wander towards the back where the counter is to drop your hand saw off to be reset and sharpened and some retired Guru of everything will ask can they help you. You tell them what you're trying to do and THEY UNDERSTAND and hook you up. Might cost me 5 bucks more than at the big box but somebody helped me and knew what I was talking about! I wander around when I'm having my propane tanks refilled and usually buy something I forgot I needed. It's ok cause one of their young guys are hauling my filled tanks out to my truck for me and loading them up.

Sorry, off my soapbox now.

Glad to hear you are not anti- ethanol. Ethanol is no magic bullet and is likely only a stepping stone that gets us along to better forms of energy. I just hate to see mis-information put out about it.

I agree it can give fits if someone pulls out grandpas 52 Chevy out of the barn that has not run in years and fills it up with ethanol. Likely all the gum and varnish out of the tank and carb along with the fuel lines turning to mush are going to be a bad deal. And a chain saw old enough to not have the right diaphram material is going to quit pumping fuel out of the tank. It is a bad deal for old stuff that has not been upgraded.

Interestingly enough, twenty years ago if we had gas line icing problems we dumped in something like Heet which was - alcohol. Maybe methanol (which is much worse corrosion wise) or ethanol. If we wanted to clean the carb a bottle of carb clean which could be petroleum distillates or...... yep, alcohol. But it was only run for a short period of time likely.

Another self induced problem is the people that are so anti-ethanol go way out of their way to not use anything with ethanol. So the fuel pump in the bottom of the gas tank gets varnished up, the fuel system gets a little dirty. Then, for whatever reason they are forced to put some 10%E in the tank. The varnish in the gas tank gets cleaned out, the fuel system gets cleaned out, and plugs up filters or worse injectors. "Yep, ethanol's fault. Had no problems till I used that damn ethanol." Sometimes people can be their own worst enemy.

Where the small engine industry is going to have problems will be with the expansion of E85 into the market. 10% will work with a little understanding on the part of the engine's owner but 15% is a no-fly. For now.

FWIW I had a 2005 Explorer that would burn E-85 or regular gas. There was a drop in mileage with the E-85. I found that E-85 had to be at least 30 cents a gallon cheaper than regular gas for it to be cost effective.

To answer your question about our premium gas being non-ethanol, I'm not sure. I've never ask. It might be, becausw our supplier knows what we use it for. It is all off road use and goes into 4 wheelers, water pumps, seed tender wagon engines, air compressors, chain saws, welders, generators - basically all types of small engines. So he may very well decided to supply non-ethanol. If he even has it. It is a 300 gallon tank and we might fill it if we will be using a lot of gas in season or might just put a hundred gallons if late in the season. But the gas could get used up in a month or two or it might be in there five or six months. I know I ask my foreman (the guy that calls supplier when we need gas) to see if he would put conditioner in it but never heard back if he does or not. We have not had a problem that I know of. Up till a couple years ago we just carried 1 to 5 gallon cans to whatever gas station and filled a bunch of them at once. That was a hassle. So I am sure we were getting ethanol at least part of the time then. In everything we run there would be only two small engines that I could pin their demise on ethanol. I don't think it was the problem, but if I was anti ethanol that is what I would blame it on. Other than those two that I am unsure of the problem (and expediency or economics just had us replace the engine), we have not had any problem and started using ethanol laced gas as soon as we could buy it. I think it keeps the fuel systems cleaner than straight gas.

That sounds about right Bill. I have a friend that blends half E85 and half E10 in an Escalade and swears he gets no mileage penalty with the blend. He claims a slight mileage penalty with E10, a big penalty for E85 (which should be expected) but none for the intermediate blend. This is a non-flex vehicle. For some reason he thinks there is a sweet spot with that engine where the computer cqan take advantage of the higher octane that offsets the lower BTU of the alcohol. Dunno. He is not even a corn farmer so no reason to promote it. But whenever he is around E85 he tank blends. Been doing it for at least 5 years. Think the truck is around 200k miles. Illegal, but he speeds all the time anyway so legality is not a big stumbling block for him.

Here's what Briggs uses on the assembly line. Pretty interesting.

I can understand where it would be a problem in non fuel injected non computerized applications. On engines already set too lean, adding a fuel that needs to be richer is not going to help the situation.

Ran across this about Brazil that is interesting.

100% ethanol cars in Brazil

It definitely is a better fit for engines that have the ability to adjust the fuel to the application and take advantage of the higher octane of ethanol.

Before I left home (for three months) put fresh fuel with Sta-bil in all the small engines, ran them WOT for a few minutes, drained the fuel out, started them and ran the fuel out of the carb till the engine died. Have never had any problem upon return. Guess I'm just lucky. Maybe now I've jinxed it!

Edit: I said all small engines but the wood splitter and a couple chainsaws that my grandson uses while he house sits get gas left in them. They just get Stabil treated gas.

Sprkplug, I apologize and will now get off my soapbox. Thanks for all your good input on a variety of topics.

Snrub, no apology is due. I have taken no offense whatsoever, and in fact have appreciated your ability to supply factual, firsthand information rather than relying on hearsay or internet gossip. Anytime I get the chance to learn something, I'm grateful.

And I agree with you in that small engines are far more prone to suffering any ill effects attributed to alcohol fuels than are automobiles. But that's not the fault of ethanol, it's a sign of the times. Small engine technology and development typically parallels that of the automotive sector, with the exception it follows behind about 30 years. Some of what we see now in our cars and trucks will find it's way into our lawnmowers in a few decades. In fact I am certified through Kohler Engines for their EFI systems, where electronic fuel management and ECM controlled ignition systems are the norm.

The trouble as I see it, lies with the public, not so much the ethanol suppliers or engine manufacturers. Pulling up to the pump with your gas cans in tow will lead to checking the price, and under ordinary conditions E85 will supposedly be cheaper than E10 or E15. E10 paid my bills, but E85 will likely put a small engine mechanic's kids through college. There is supposed to be a large, warning decal affixed to the pump, warning consumers NOT to use the fuel in off road equipment, but many will see the cheaper price and nothing else. But again, that's not the fault of ethanol.

The technology is on the horizon in the off-road industry to allow for greater, less troublesome use of ethanol fuels. It's incorporating it into an acceptable price point for the consumer that's the sticking point.

You sir are a scholar and a gentleman, this is going to be so much cheaper than some of the fittings I was pricing out.

Thanks Sprkplug

We have a nearby station that sells non ethanol gas, and that is what I use in all my small engines, along with stabil. Once, on a long trip, I accidentally (in SW Iowa) put E85 in our (no longer owned) Ford minivan, and the check engine light came on in a few miles and stayed on for a few days.

Good info!