I realize that this has nothing to do with ponds or fish, but I sure could use a little advice from someone who's been there and done that. Lots of intelligent and handy folks here on the forum, And I would love to get as much input as possible.

We're going to be moving sometime in the next few months, and we are in the planning stages for a kitchen upgrade/overhaul in the house we're moving into. My question has to do with the choices in flooring material. We love the look of hardwood, and we have researched natural as well as laminate flooring.

Trouble is, there appears to be a concern over the inevitable spills and the resulting water damage. We think we want a continuous run of flooring from the kitchen into the dining room and living area, but we're bound to have spills, and water on the floor sooner than later.

Anyone here have wood or laminate flooring, and have you experienced any water damage? Swelling, splitting, cracking? Would you recommend it for a kitchen?

Thanks!

Porcelain tile
Can't tear it up

Our house is 15 years old. We have had it for 5. Laminate installed when new in kitchen, dining room and living room. There are two or three small places where there is swelling from the previous owner. We have not had any major spills and no new swelling. It is vulnerable to hard objects being dropped on it and has several little chips in it. We have two big dogs and they can be hard on floors but the laminate has held up OK from their damage anyway. From the look of it I don't think it was a very high end laminate. Would we install laminate again? Maybe, but a better grade. I would not put real wood flooring in my kitchen. Tile, laminate, maybe bamboo, maybe cork. We have oak in a couple of other rooms but they are dry rooms. I like tile but it can be cold on the feet in winter.

I second porcelain tile. It comes in designs that mimic natural stone. We have traditional hickory floors (purchased from a small mill) except in the kitchen and bathrooms. We installed all or our floors ourselves. We love all our floors including the slate that we cut for a mosaic at the French doors.

FWIW we were faced with the same problem in our 4 season room. We went with ceramic tile that looks like wood. We love it and so does everybody that visits when they see it. Comes in lots of shades.

The second kitchen is in the 4 season which is why we didn't go wood...fear of water damage. The main kitchen is 2' X 2' ceramic that looks like stone and transitions to real wood hickory flooring in the great room.

Beautiful work guys, one and all. We are considering ceramic tile, but we wonder about flexibility....this will be on the second floor, and while solid, we're not sure if we can achieve the absolute rigidity claimed as necessary for tile.

FWIW they tried to put plywood under our ceramic tiles (and we have a lot!). They assumed I didn't know any better. Needless to say that conversation ended quickly. Cement board screwed to all floor joists as an underlayment is a must. That gives you the rigidity.

I would prefer tile. It is easy to clean, impervious to water and leaky refrigerators, cat barf, dog toenails, children, etc. Only drawback is anything that is breakable and lands on it WILL break. China, glasses, your phone...

Just make sure and use dark grout, otherwise stains will start to show as the sealant wears out. Also run tile under all cabinets so that standing water will not pool under them (think mopping).

We ripped up down to the sub-floor, and then laid down one layer of concrete board, then leveling mortar, and then another layer of concrete fiber board board for build-up. If we ever have a natural disaster, the floor will be the only thing remaining. It has been 10 years and looks like brand new.

Wood looks great, I love it, but that is for areas with less risk of water damage.

Thanks all! We are leaning towards the tile.

Definitely use a cement or other suitable underlayment, and tape and mortar the seams. Spend the time and care during this step, or the rest will never end up like you want. Porcelain tile is tough stuff if installed correctly.

Ditto. Just like building a house, it isn't any better than it's foundation. Get a great foundation, and you won't have many problems, if any at all.

done 'em all, most more than once...
Laminate: Looks good, like real wood, from the normal viewing range of 4 feet and more. The real detraction is that most times the individual "rows" are ganged into a plank of 3 or 4 rows on one plank. This means that the ends of the planks are square cut and all the rows dead end. Ere go, the rows don't weave in the same pattern as the realistic weaving that occurs within the plank. For this reason, laminate will always look like a nice try to simulate real wood. The best shot at beating this detraction is finding a laminate that depicts very short pieces within the weave, creating a very busy pattern. We did this in both the BR's of our pond project with laminate. It looks better with the "busy look", but in the right sunlight, you can easily see the ends of the ganged planks. Also, underlayment is important. You are looking for firm support, but not solid. Also, a vapor barrier may be needed, depending on the install location. (sounds like your install has no issues with vapor transmission as long as the rooms below are maintained at similar temps throughout the year). I've used the big box foam; junk. The manufacturer's recommended (expensive) dense foam; better. Then I discovered Volara foam. It is a very dense, pex kinda cross link foam that comes in varying densities. It is the stuff that gets used for pool table tops under the felt, laudau roofs, etc. I got it on Ebay. We used Volara 4A at .093" thick. Absolutely the catsass! Comparable cost and superior in every aspect.
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Manufactured flooring. Have used snap-together and glue-together. The snap together is great, but it has the same ganged plank asthetic issues that laminate has. Seems a shame since the surface is real wood veneer. The glue-together, though was a super result. We used the same Volara underlayment noted above and used 3" wide individual strips made by Bruce Flooring. Yeah, a lot of glue, but the seams will never separate or open from humidity changes and the random weave of individual strips is totally indistiguishable from a true 3/4" solid hardwood. The only downside to manufactured is that the veneer is usually about .060" - .090" thick, so there is very little future for sanding deeply to remove scars or even refinish deeply. Past that, though, it is the best combo of lower cost and high return. We used maple stained with a deep red/brown in our pond project kitchen/living/hall and it is gorgeous.
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Solid wood. Not much to say except it's the real McCoy. It is also, typically, the most expensive. The downside is is that can/will open and close ever so slightly during seasonal temp and humidity changes. Acclimating the wood within the structure WILL make a difference. The time to acclimate WILL make a difference. We did our principal home in 3/4" natural Ash, acclimated for about a year (moving slow on this project; too much work at the pond project), and the seams stay pretty danged tight thru all the midwest temp/humidity changes. Regarding water damage? Well, we used Bellawood prefinished, in our living and kitchen space; gorgeous. We had a coffee maker malfunction and half a pot laid on that floor for a couple of hours. I mopped it up and 2 years later, you still can't tell.
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Final advice. Lumber Liquidators. You have to be savvy and patient to find the best deals. Within their website, you can access each store and see their clearance inventory. You can actually email offers. We picked up the Bellawood prefinished natural Ash for $3 sq ft, the manufactured maple veneer for $1 sq ft, and the busy cherry laminate for $.50 sq ft.

LAMINATE WITH BUSY PATTERN (snap together)



MANUFACTURED MAPLE VENEER (glue together)

Tile: Great durability, though dropping a cast iron skillet on it can chip it.

I didn't like laminate. Sure it's easier to put in and they do sell 20+ yr coatings now. But those can get scratched up and pitted too. Ditto to the comments above on design.

I like finish-in-place hardwood. When you install that beautiful 3/4" full-grained wood, you sand it until you're happy (days) and then you put a finish over the whole thing, you end up sealing the small gaps. It's the most labor intensive that I've done. You deal with sanding dust and finish vapors. They make some good finishes now.. and expensive. I settled on Bona and been happy. When the warehouse owner told me they only sell this product to professionals, I got interested. Didn't buy from him of course. Just because I'm not a professional, he doesn't know I'm rebuilding the house and can maybe do a complex, time-critical process.

Dropped a trivet on our porcelain tile and broke it into pieces. The trivet that is. The tile showed no damage. It did scare me though!

Thanks again everyone, your advice and experience are much appreciated. I suppose there is no absolutely perfect solution, just like everything else in life. You need to compromise somewhere and simply be satisfied with making the best decision you can.

sprkplug....I have tile in my kitchen but I see more and more high end homes here in Dallas going with hand scraped hardwoods in a kitchen. I would not mind wood in my kitchen. I suppose it has a bit to do with lifestyle. I am a bachelor who still has the owners manual in my dishwasher and oven and I've lived in the house almost 4 years. If you cook a lot or have young kids spilling stuff I would probably not go with wood. Also if you have a lot of "moving furniture" like dining chairs, bar stools, etc....wood may not be the best...even with the slide pads under the legs. I would say tile is the best choice (practical and cost-wise) for a kitchen in the majority of homes.

I have wood done like you are talking about and have had no issues with spills causing any problem. As far as water leaks I have a crawl space and we installed emergency drains in the island and cabinet were the water enters. The only real risk I am running is if something bust on the fridge and I have a major water leak. All we had to do is put in a wood lip at the cabinet / islands edge and caulk the seems. This makes it work like a catch pan for a drain we installed in the bottom thru to the crawl space. To me it is a lot easier to dry my crawl space than to replace the flooring.

For my tile installs I used plywood screwed to floor joist and then cement board screwed to the plywood. This made a solid area so that I have had no settling or cracking from flexing.


Another thought I had on laying wood in kitchens when I done mine is you can lay unfinished wood. Then finish the wood sealing it leaving no seems for leaks before installing the cabinets.

PS note the pic attached is part of my actual Kitchen with a rendering of what it would look like with a few changes my wife wants to make (like the blue island). LOL

Traditional hardwood flooring expands and contracts. The cracks will not remain sealed, even if you use a marine product like we did.

That looks great Tums!

I agree, nice kitchen.

I like the blue island!

Is that an engineered product?

You stated that your main concern was liquid damage to a wood floor due to occasional spills. I would remove that from the equation; it's a non-issue. As stated above, I have spilled plenty of stuff, hit and miss, cleaned it up in a reasonable amount of time, and zero change to the integrity of the wood floor in our kitchen.
Other considerations are that tile floor are great in summer cuz their cool; not so great in winter when you want a little warmth. Yeah, you can install electric heating pretty cheap; your call. Wood, though consistent and more temperature comfortable through all the seasons. The dishwasher and cook will appreciate this facet.
I used prefinished Bellawood and have zero regrets. If I was finishing it myself after install, I would absolutely, positively, use Varathane Diamond Coat poly for my clear finish after staining. It is the expensive (about $45 per gal), but goes on easy, clear, and hard as a rock. I use water base. I ditched every other poly years ago for ALL my wood projects. Varathane diamond coat is the nuts.
Also, remember that you will drop pickel jars (and trivets; ask RAH) onto a wood floor. Yes, it dents. Oh well; tough. Chalk it up the natural beauty of owning a wood floor.

If you use traditional hickory flooring, good luck denting it. If you are installing it yourself, use sharp tools.

FWIW we installed hand scraped prefinished hickory from Somerset in our great room. Last Christmas the tree stand cracked and a gallon of water or so soaked everything around the tree. No impact to the floor.

We went with the solid Somerset Hickory BTW (not the thinner engineered material) as we were transitioning to tile in the kitchen so the kitchen cement board underlayment plus tile thicknesses came out real nice for a transition to the wood. No transition strip was needed.

Tony, next time you are up this way I can show you the wood floor in the lake house. It's been pretty maintenance free and problem free for a long, long, long time. It's in the living room tho.....

When I was building my lake home 10 yr's ago I found a saw mill in DeKalb Texas that had 3/4" white oak tongue and grooved. My living area and kitchen, separated by a bar and stools, are all one room 20x40' and I have no regrets with the wood floor. Never had a problem with water stains or any other kind of stains. It's easy to take care of and easy to clean. But after setting the floor the sanding was the worst thing about it. The wood dust was everywhere, luckily I have several double wide doors that we left open and one single wide door for ventilation. I would not recommend doing this in a home full of stuff because of the sanding dust. But it turned out to be a beautiful floor in a 3 story all open except for the master suite and bath. I would do this type of wood floor again but I would take everything out of the house or do it in a new, not finished home.

Tracy

3/4" Red Oak Cherry stained bought thru lumber liquidators



And Thanks on the comments.

Red oak stained to look like Cherry?

I am a tile installer. Ask me any or all of your questions.. first tell me what the subfloor is how thick and what the joist spacing is. I have done a few of the plank tiles they come out good.

When I read these posts I must admit I realize the extent of my knowledge and experience when it comes to construction or engines is terribly inadequate. I'm impressed with your collective universe of knowledge - I just wish some of you lived closer!

If the world goes down the toilet I sure hope my village has a need for a guy who can grow fish, garden, use a smoker, or make lump charcoal or I'm probably going to be served as dinner. Yikes!

Thank you! Since I'm completely clueless about all things flooring, I will probably have a question or two! Much appreciate your generosity, Fish. I will check on the dimensions you mentioned.


Brother TJ, when this world makes it's last, slow spiral before exiting the drain, you feel free to call me if your lawnmower won't start that final time....I've got your back.

I'm counting on it, Tony - as I want my lawn to be in pristine condition just before the final flush - might get me some points I desperately need.

Yes, the alien overlords do place great emphasis on property maintenance. That whole pesky, taking care of the earth thing and all.

Major inconvenience! I have to walk 2 feet past the garbage bin to access my recycling bin. I mean, I'm all about a living planet and all for future generations, blah blah blah, but it's kinda getting ridiculous the lengths to which I'm going here. It can be brutally cold or unbelievably hot and humid in NE, and I do suspect it's taking a toll on my health...two feet there, two feet, back...dang - it adds up over time!

We recently installed laminate in one of ours and have already had issues. Would not recommend laminate. Second the tile recommendation.

I'm sure you're sacrifice is appreciated, TJ. Perhaps they will reward you by waiting until the very end to recycle your DNA.

I haven't read the entire thread, but I second this. Went laminate throughout our upstairs last year and also having issues. It's not noticeable to guests, but is to us.

We've looked into vinyl tile and like the sound of it.

How far to recycling bin, Josh?

Oh, and sorry for hijacking your thread, Tony...I guess I owe you one.

Way too far. And we have two of them. One in the back, one in the front. It's not too bad until that one day a week and it's exhausting. Think I should use the skidloader from now on.

Yes, and be sure to use non renewable fuel in loader...maybe some liquefied Koala bears? Too far?

My koala guy isn't answering his phone.

Try the baby seal guy. He always answers.

Score! Thanks Sparky! A lot cheaper than koalas too.

Shipping on Koalas is killer...they fail to mention that during the marketing spiel - surprise surprise. Fine print on invoice, by then it's too late, cc has been charged...dang Aussies. I personally blame Scotty.

Omaha, read the warranty on the vinyl tile. Mine is starting to loose it's stick (glue) about 6 months after the warranty ran out.

I did linoleum in the laundry room, but no matter how careful I was moving the washer, I still poked a hole in it. I won't use it again. To me, being a novice at laying it down, it was a PITA. It didn't help that the room wasn't square, plus there were a lot of cut-outs.

Good call. We will definitely do a lot of research before we do this again.



Customer service was suspect as well.

I had some vinyl tiles in a small utility room at my old house
and after about a year the seams would slowly start getting
wider and wider.

I suppose it could have been from the vibrations of
the washing machine, but I too decided "never again".

About 6 months to a year before the glue showed noticeable signs of failure I noticed the gaps too.....

Point taken. No vinyl.

Good choice

I'm becoming a little more educated. I now know the difference between porcelain and ceramic tile, and sanded vs. nonsanded grout. Now we just need to find a supplier with a showroom....the local big box home improvement stores haven't carried a tile that called to us.

The floor joists are on 16" centers, and they are 2 x 10's. The native lumber was cut on site, so they are a full 2" by 10". I helped saw them almost 30 years ago. They span 14', and are covered by 5/8" subfloor.

We looked in flooring stores, but eventually settled on a porcelain tile from Lowes. Such things are really a very personal choice.

If you have a big room go with a bigger tile. Nothing nicer than a 18X18 tile with very small grout line.

We used a new grout that is epoxy with sand. You need to work fast and clean as you go. This grout will stay flexible and can easily be cleaned over and over.

Cheers Don.

Actually, it is now recognized that big tile looks good in not so big rooms too. We used a pattern meant to look random where the largest tiles were 18x18". A photo is posted earlier in this thread. One thing that is very important in long runs, is to snap chalk lines and start laying the tiles in the middle of the room. We drew lines out so we would not get the pattern goofed up. Another advantage of tile that looks like stone, is that it cleans easier than real stone because all of the texture is rounded so it releases from the forms.

if the sub floor is in good shape than every thing is up to code and tile can go down, with an under layment, dietra is probably the best, but you coulduse 1/4 in cement board mudded on and screwed and nailed.

For your tile know what the tolerances are, some large tile are much more crooked than others and they cup and bow ect. Tile leveling spacers come in handy in those cases.

We never had problems with porcelain tile not being near perfect. Natural stone is a bit different. If some tile is not flat or square, do not buy tile from that company! What brand of tile did you find cupped or not squared properly?

It was an Italy made porceluan but I don't remember the name. Talked the supplier into never ordering it again after the 1600 ft floor we installed. You win some and loose some. The dark die or color seemed to be what was warped and it was a thinner tile. 20"x20" and a hair under 3/8 thick

Wow! I am glad that I never came across anything like that!

The latest thing we are installing in our spec houses is the wood tile. Our local guys have 50 different types of tile that looks like wood planks. From rustic hickory to smooth alder. All of which are porcelain tile. Looks really good too.

We like the wood plank look also. With a thin, dark grout line they can look very realistic.

I installed some simulated wood tile in our hall bathroom and we really liked the look of it. We had an appraisal done last year and the appraiser was so convinced that it was hardwood she bent down to feel the floor.I think she thought I was pulling her leg. I used a thin dark grout that closely matched the tile.

It is amazing how some of the wood looking porcelain floor and wall tile look.



Home Depot "Wood" Tile