http://www.bigbluegill.com/photo/1011982-1?page=1#comment-2036984_Comment_53005

Interesting about lack of reabsorbtion female pike. I'm surprised that species would be different in this respect. Does he have a source for the info? Not that I don't believe it but it would be nice to have a source.

As far as low survival of fry and subsequent generations that does not surprise me. Sounds par for the course for a top of the line predator.

I was thinking mostly about the size of the yellow perch.

Oh!

Yep that's a waste of trophy perch!

I've seen 20 some inch pike in the gullet of bigger pike I've skinned out.

Cecil I was checking on that as well. No luck yet.

Biggest YP I saw in my one fishing trip to Canada was inside a Northern.

Do all female pike in captivity held in tanks and aquariums lay their eggs? I very much doubt it, and they reportedly don't regularly die.

A yellow perch has a very similar body width and depth as a bass of the same length. Pike consume lots of bass when combined with bass, that can be good or bad depending.

Think of all the 12" LMB that pike could eat in a bass-heavy pond

I've mounted some pike and musky that could fit 5 pound bass in their gullets but 3 lb. bass would be easy. I took in a 50 inch musky a few weeks ago from a local lake. Fortunately for the bass in these lakes large Gizzard Shad are the soup de jour.

I hear gizzard shad are soupy.

Is that a YP or LMB? Pike spawn very early in the Spring, and could spawn under in backwaters or bays that first warm in the Spring, even if there was ice on the main body of the lake. It says that the pike was speared in the Winter, so could these eggs be developing in preparation for the Spring spawn?

I'm pretty sure it's a yellow perch as the head looks too small for a bass to me. It's hard to tell by the decomposition though isn't it?

Yep definitely prespawn northern if it was speared. We don't know how early in the ice season it was speared of course.

Oh yeah! One summer when I worked as a biologist aid we gillnetted large ones when doing some reservoir surveys. I can tell you from personal experience it doesn't take long for them to get ripe in gillnets!

The fish in the stomach of that NP looks like a LMB to me. I just asked on BigBlugill.com, so we'll see if the guy who posted the photo can confirm or deny one way or the other.

There are few man made lakes that have consistent natural reproduction by NP. In natural lakes, they rely on the the flooding of grassy vegetated areas due to spring rains/ice melt. In man made lakes, this flooding rarely occurs. A lake I fish a good bit in PA is a prime example of this:

What I want to know is why did the guy chop up the pike like that? To open the digestive tract all he had to do was make a slice in the belly. Looks like the pike was going to waste. They are good eating.

Hmm, as usual, the most interesting tidbits arise on this forum!

Northern pike around my neck of the woods will at times not spawn. One of the most common reasons occurs during drought periods. Northern pike adults can live in water with relatively high saline (high dissolved solids) content, but the eggs must be laid in quite fresh (low dissolved solids) water. Thus, during the drought years when lakes have higher dissolved solids (water has evaporated and left behind the salts), we also tend to have little snow, and thus no freshwater runoff. In those years and in those lakes, the pike don't spawn and will resorb their eggs.

I have never before heard that northern pike can't resorb eggs or are more likely to die because of resorption. However, as Dave Davidson says, we never say never. I did a literature search, and couldn't find evidence, which of course doesn't really answer the question. Just from my observations, I think the northerns carry the eggs longer than most fish while resorbing. A month after pike spawning, we can see a female with what appears to be full ovaries. When you open her, you see that the eggs are in a state of decay, and obviously no longer are viable.

We did do a couple of years of study on seasonal patterns in pike ovaries and testes. If you are interested, go to this link, and then look at figure 5.

http://wfs.sdstate.edu/wfsdept/Publications/Willis/203-F%20neumann_nop%20seasonal.pdf

In addition, my literature search also turned up a very interesting European review paper on fish reproduction. They did indicate that pike do resorb eggs. If anyone wants a copy of this file, you'll have to email me, and I'll forward the PDF to you.

Interesting stuff Dave... I guess pike cannot handle tidal waters? The brackish conditions don't suite them... Or do you think they migrate upstream to lower salinities to attempt to spawn?

CJ -- it might all be part of their "package?" After all, they spawn very early, and in a wet year around here, they are running up every small piece of temporary stream, spawning in flooded grasses. So, the adults can handle the moderately saline waters just fine. It's just that they must find some fresh water for reproduction. Sort of cool.

Dave,

Since you're on the subject of esocidae spawning...

We have several lake chains in my area that the DNR plants muskies into and they do quite well on mostly large gizzard shad. In fact for numbers per acre these lakes have a lot of musky and they reach large sizes (over 40 pounds.) Anyway reproduction is supposed to be nil hence the planting. These are natural lakes which vary from muck bottom to marl with varying degrees of vegetation. What is missing that prevents successful reproduction with the muskies? Northern are native here and don't seem to have a problem reproducing.

Cecil:

Doesn't the DNR catch and strip the muskies of eggs/milt for their breeding program in those lakes?

Yes you are correct but natural hatching in the lakes is nil supposedly. I'm pretty sure after stripping the eggs are hatched in jars and then the fry are planted into fertilized ponds.

Musky seem to be very difficult to get to naturally pull off a successful spawn. The Maryland DNR about had a heart attack a few years back when they found out pure musky were naturally reproducing in the Potomac River. From what I understand it is a very small length of river, maybe only 30 miles where they have success.

Cecil, here are a couple links of interest on this subject:
http://www.muskyclubsalliance.org/Musky%20Habitat%20Study.htm
http://www.chippewaflowage.com/musky_study.html

If musky and NP are found in the same lake, often the NP will dominate. They spawn earlier than musky and their young prey heavily on the musky young. Maybe Dr. Willis can add more info...

Maybe the muskie that you have are lascuine muskie? Here's an excerpt from the 2nd link: "It is LeBeaus theory that the riverine musky is the genetically superior musky. LeBeaus findings indicate that riverine muskies do not conflict with northern pike for spawning habitat and therefore are not susceptible to northern pike predation."

From http://www.bigbluegill.com/photo/1011982-1?page=1#comment-2036984_Comment_53005

Jim Watts the original poster which sparked this thread wrote:

"I was a Largemouth, not a Perch. There are GIANT perch in the lake the Pike came from though. I have found small Pike inside other pike, but never a legal size Largemouth!. IT obviously knows how to fish better than we do. We only seem to catch undersized bass on that lake."

A 15" LMB being eaten by a NP... Wow!

Cecil and CJ: I don't have much personal experience with muskies, and I'm not sure we have a good knowledge base in the profession on spawning and reproduction. I don't know why so many of the stocked populations don't spawn -- they prefer spawning on submerged vegetation, and that usually is present.

As for the NOP usually out-compete Muskies theory, we probably should call it "often" rather than "always." As CJ said, the northern pike spawn early, in the 30s, just after ice-out, while the muskies don't spawn until later. Optimum spawning temps are in the mid-50s. So, the thought is that the little northern pike are already spawned and just waiting to eat the small muskies. NOP seem programmed for built-in cannibalism anyway, and I'm sure a small musky looks pretty darn familiar to them. I do know that the MN and WI biologists who manage lakes with natural musky populations get very upset if northern pike get into their lake. It is not always the kiss of death, depending on habitat perhaps, but it often can result in a loss of the musky natural recruitment.

Good stuff Dave... There sure is still a lot to learn in the field of fisheries science! You and your students are definitely adding more to the field every year though.

I think you mean "lucastrine."

Interesting thread. There are a couple big lakes in NW Iowa that have NP, Muskie, and Tiger Muskie together, and seem to do quite well. I don't know about the TM, which I have been told is a cross between and NP and Muskie. I don't know if they re-produce, or are a hatchery fish. Angling wise and pound for pound I like the TM, they really fight, and are cool looking.

Tiger musky are for the most part a man made hybrid between the musky and NP. There has been rare documentation of possible natural hybrids, but that is unlikely as they spawn at different times of the year. Tiger musky themselves are completely sterile and unable to spawn. I agree with you, TM definitely fight better than either parent are are VERY cool looking. Especially when from clear waters when their tiger stripes really shine through.

You left out the silver northern. They are in Big Spirit and maybe west okoboji. They have one mounted at the fish hatchery. Neat looking fish - its an all silver colored northern pike. They DNR get 1 or 2 a year in their gill nets collecting brood fish. Anglers catch them occasionally too. I am not sure what causes the color.

Supposedly they don't get as big as a regular northern, the one mounted in the hatchery is ~8 pounds and the biggest one they know of. Its hard to say they don't get bigger with them being so rare, but a pike that maxes out at 8 lbs could be an interesting tool for pond management.

Last I knew the state stopped stocking tiger muskies about 10 years ago. That may have changed as I have been out of the loop with the hatchery people for 3 or 4 years.

Very interesting, is it sort of like a color morph like a blue pike(color morph with slightly bigger eyes and possible subspecies of the walleye)? Chain pickerel are also an option, they max out at about the same size(8 lbs) and can handle a large range of water qualities.

NP sustain their population in several man made strip mines in Central Illinois, they dont overpopulate by any means, but do reproduce in some, even as small as 5 acres I have seen.

I dont know of any Muskie naturally reproducing anywhere in the state of Illinois? I am pretty sure they are all stocked fish.