Pond Boss
Posted By: TGW1 What size forage pond would u build - 05/15/20 12:44 PM
I spoke with my contractor about building a small forage pond and this summer we hope to get it built. Due to location it will have to be seined to remove the forage fish. So, anyone have any advice on what size it might be? Plans are to build it like a paint roller pan. And where is to be located it should get plenty of water both ground water and runoff.
Posted By: Augie Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/15/20 01:23 PM
I'll be interested in seeing the replies to this one. Forage pond is on my project list for this summer, and like yours will be in a spot that requires a seine to get the bait out.
Posted By: FireIsHot Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/15/20 01:51 PM
Tracy, about to hit the road, so I'll add to this later today. My thoughts have changed about hatchery ponds, so think more along the lines of a shoe box, not a paint roller pan. The gradual incline at the removal end of the pond gets extremely silty once that net drags through it. That's very rough on the small fish since their gills get filled with silt unless you pull them out post haste.

As far as size, determine the size of the net you're comfortable working with, then base the width of the forage pond on that net. The smaller the the netting mesh size, the harder it is to pull. 1/4" to 1/2' nets are much harder to pull than 3/4' to 1' nets.
Posted By: canyoncreek Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/15/20 04:45 PM
on that same vein... a forage 'tank' is better than a pond as you avoid the mucky/sandy issues. Consider a liner if you have to go in-ground, or lined tank, or if you can swing it, a poly water tank. A poly tank with walls roughed up allow for the periphyton to adhere and is easier to keep clean and silt free. Most poly water tanks are round and tall. You could improvise by taking a large tank and embedding on its side horizontally. It is easier to capture fish from a poly tank. A round tank mounted vertically can easily be harvested with a rope system attached to a round disk with holes in it that sits on the bottom. Just lift and harvest and let it settle down again.

As Azteca proved in the recent posts, a very small body of water can produce plenty of forage.
Posted By: jpsdad Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/16/20 11:33 AM
Size? Depends on what weights you want to add to your pond when you seine. You can raise about 7/10 of a pound of fingerlings for every 100 ft^2 - 60 days. How large they are in 60 days depends on the stocking rate of brooders (more produces smaller fingerlings). If you had a 4000 ft^2 of forage pond, you could produce about 28 lbs of fingerlings (about 3.5 gallons worth). Doesn't seem like a lot, but this would be a huge benefit. Depending on size of the fingerlings, the numbers could be as many as:

2"- 6104
1.5"- 15764 (requires 3 time stocking rate)

Were it me, I would build the production unit in two parts. You only need brooders for the first 30 days of crop cycle, beyond that additional fry are going to be eaten by existing fry. So after 30 days you move brooders to the adjacent unit let it start its cycle. This would give you a crop of BG every 30 days. or up to 5 crops in a single season assuming 5 breeding months. That would be ~15000 2" fingerlings at a value of $5250 over buying them somewhere else. Each crop would only be 14 lbs in weight or a little less than 5 lbs/acre. Provided there are few predators in the 8" to 14" a fair number would survive to 3" which is the length 18" LMB would become very interested in them.

I once worked up a spreadsheet that simulated feeding by such a stocking. Basically the LMB consume the BG as they grow. Depending on rates of consumption and BG growth, the BG start at a low gross weight (high numbers though) and gain to maximum gross weight before the growth of the predators and attrition of BG begins to lower their weight. It is possible to get several times the weight stocked utilized as food by the predators.

One thing I will mention. The reason a forage pond can grow so many fingerlings is because there are few predators of the smaller fry. There are only few brooders to cannibalize young and no LMB less than 8" to decimate them. If your pond has few LMB less than 12", you would produce many more fingerling BG simply by removing a good portion of the BG that are too big for LMB to commonly target. 3 acres is more than 32 times the size of the forage production unit described. If the standing weight of BG were reduced by 1/4, that would provide 8 times the space to grow BG fingerlings. Reduce the standing weight by 1/2 and you have 16 times the space to grow fingerlings. I think you could grow many more fingerling BG in the pond where you need them at much less effort and expense than growing them in a forage pond.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/16/20 01:28 PM
As far as a forage pond I am sure I will change what I produce in the pond each year. I would really like to try the fresh water prawns. At this time the lmb/hsb pond seems to have plenty of different sized bg in it. But based on what the RW's of the lmb/hsb . I think I am short of the 1 to 2" size bg. RW's are good on any fish that's larger than 14". But the 10" lmb are still at 100% RW's. Then again every year around this time I am short of 2" bg based on the two e shock surveys that have been done in or around the mid March and April. So, if I was to produce bg I would lean toward 2" sized bg for harvest/transfer.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/16/20 01:41 PM
jpsdad, I do understand what you are saying when talking about removing some large bg out of the big pond so you can get more survival from the bg spawns. And I have done similar by removing 7" bg from the pond and leaving the 8 to 10" bg for the brooders and for sport fishing with the fly rod. The 7"'ers were for eating smile
Posted By: FireIsHot Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/16/20 02:43 PM
Tracy, I'll start out by saying that for the most part, I've enjoyed my hatchery pond as much or more than my big pond. It's far easier to micromanage, and obviously taking care of the water is much cheaper. I've raised or grown out RBT, LMB, CNBG, HSB, and Tilapia at some point, and all did very well. For me the RBT are the easiest to grow out and remove, and Tilapia were as easy to grow, but a royal PITA to get out. They'll jump over a net like a gazelle when crowded.I've stocked thousands of fish into my big pond, and probably killed that many when I started the whole hatchery thing. I will say that I've never stocked any volume of my hatchery fish that permanently corrected a imbalance in my big pond. Results were temporary, some longer than others, but still temporary. As most of us know, culling LMB still remains a priority. If you decide to do this, give me a shout this fall, and I'll run down and give you a hand.

I guess the actual size of the pond will depend on how many fish you're wanting to supplement your big pond with. There's really no need to make it 40-50 wide at the bottom, and have to manhandle a larger net. A shoe box shaped hatchery pond can replace circumference volume with length. And by that I mean that you can have 20-30' wide pond, and make it as long as you want to get the volume you need.

The shoe box shape works well for several reasons. For me, having to seine a round pond means that you're spending a lot of time dragging the excess net in muck, or on the shore, because there's only one point in time when a properly sized net actually fits the pond, and that's at it's widest point, the rest of the time you're just wrangling with the dead weight of the net. I know Esshup, TJ, and I have all had to address that same issue. By having parallel banks, a net can be smaller, always stays in the water, and generally just easier to deal with. "If" I was going build a new hatchery pond, I don't think I'd make it any deeper than 5', with a flat 30"-36" deep area at the end of the pond that I'd use as a working area to pull the fish out. The shallower flat gives you a level working area, that's easier on the fish, and a lot less work for me. Next time you go to Todd's, look at his ponds if he has one drained.

Hatchery Pond Potpourri. Just stuff I've learned over the years. No science, no general truth's, just observation and experience.

Water volume's not a bad thing. I've only pushed my HP to sketchy levels once or twice. Nothing worse than having to remove fish because of a potential O2 crash. I've got a semi-permanent platform for my 3" pump, that's set up as a surface aerator. I use it quite a bit, but usually in late summer. Having a HPond close enough to add water from the main pond can sure be a benefit.

Seriously consider the possible implications of a feeder. Unlike a regular pond, single species hatchery pond fish like CNBG, usually spawn at the exact same time, which means fewer mouths feeding for a few days. A day or 2 of little or no feeding, because of a spawning cycle or a cold front, can dump uneaten food into the pond. On a small pond like this, you really, really, don't want that.

Learn your fish, and feed accordingly. The only time I use a standard 1/4" etc. pellet, would be for an original stocking if graded fish from a hatchery are stocked. after the first spawn, there will quickly be various sizes of mouths to feed. Bruce Condello referenced this same thing on one of Bob's podcasts. Feed your fish early, and feed food that is appropriate for their size from then on. I carry 4 different food sizes in coffee cans, and hand feed each food according to the volume of fish eating it. I carry bottom of the bag fish food dust for fry, 2.2mm, 1/8", and 3/16" pellets. I feed Cargill, and the 3/16" pellets aren't as hot as the 1/4" pellets, which is why I use it.

Stock, and then, if possible, maintain a survivable population of FHM's . I've yet to stock a fish that wouldn't eat fry of any type, so there's always something for them to eat.

Set a fish target size, and stick to it. Nothing more fun than watching a bunch of 6-7" CNBG chowing down on food unless you were wanting 3-4" CNBG.

Accumulate a good water testing kit. Water is obviously very important, and you need to be able to easily check the status of HPond water.I use usually check, PH, hardness, nitrates, and alkalinity. Maybe more is needed, but that's all I check. After a heavy rain, hardness and PH seem to be the ones that change the most.

Keep pond bottom angles as gradual as possible. Sharp angles can allow nets to lift off the bottom when pulled, and fish will swim under that gap.

"Dry" seine a pond before you ever put a net in it. And by that I mean, walk through every step of the fish transfer from the HPond, to the main pond, and acumulate evrything need like, buckets, dip nets, how the fish are going to be transported and released, etc. This leads to the next point.

When moving fish, keep the fish in water as much as possible. Buckets are good, dip nets are bad.

Sonar is your friend. Weeds in HPonds can really make seining a chore. Because of the size, treating a 1/4th of the pond at a time is labor intensive, and can become a part time job here in the south. I've been using Sonar RTU the last few years, and 1 bottle usually handles everything I need treated in a very slow manner, so less stress on the fish. Well worth $100. We're stocking our tilapia this weekend, and I'll probably throw 5-10 males in the pond to handle the algae part.

I don't seine fish in water above 85 degrees, or below 50 degrees. Less potential stress if staying within those temps.

If I'm going to continue a one species HPond for more than one cycle, I pull my jumpers, and throw them back in the HPond as my brood fish. They're the biggest, and most aggressive, and those are traits I want in future spawners.

Ok, Tracy, I'm done rattling. Hope this helps.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/16/20 03:38 PM
It does help Al. I will attempt to build it more like a shoe box if I can. I did worry about vegetation growth if using a paint pan shape due to the shallow water at one end. And 5' depth is about what I was thinking. I have a TH feeder available and maybe I can have everything together by this fall. Maybe we can get Brian to come along incase we need an overhead look at it all. And I may need to add some of that Sonar sooner than expected in the big pond. I am not sure I can wait on the G Carp to make a dent in the bushy pondweed that is booming in the pond right now.
Posted By: FireIsHot Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/16/20 04:00 PM
Tracy, full strength Sonar can get really pricey with a pond your size, and it does kill water primrose, so I'm assuming it will kill APW as well. Just a head's up.

If Brian comes, he'll be on a seine tag line just like me. Not sure I could get through the whole deal with him eating Cheetos in a reclining lawn chair while flying a drone overhead.
Posted By: highflyer Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/16/20 08:37 PM
UM, Cheetos.

I agree with Allen on size. Ours are 24 feet wide and 50 feet long. I am looking into graveling the bottom and firming the walls. For now, getting the bottom graveled is first. Then I will be adding solar powered water pumping and aeration. The syphon pipe will keep the water level at four and a half feet deep. With these updates to the brood ponds, I hope to have two of them in CNBG and the other two dealers choice.

The drone is always available to document Allen's work.

About handling a seine, I need at least a weeks notice to start preparing my hands for the grueling work that is pulling a seine.
Posted By: FireIsHot Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/16/20 09:48 PM
Tracy, I'll bring my Silver Pigeon. Do any of you reading this know if there's any breast meat on a drone?
About as much as on a wingmaster
Posted By: snrub Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/17/20 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by TGW1
I spoke with my contractor about building a small forage pond and this summer we hope to get it built. Due to location it will have to be seined to remove the forage fish. So, anyone have any advice on what size it might be? Plans are to build it like a paint roller pan. And where is to be located it should get plenty of water both ground water and runoff.

Be careful with the runoff amount. Excess flow through can make for very difficult management and stress on the fish.

My forage pond is 1/20th of an acre and for a low management pond that is as small as I would want to go. It gets limited runoff and has worked pretty well.

I have also used my 1/10th acre sediment pond to grow out some CNBG. It worked in a year that did not have a lot of big rains. Last year and this year it would have been a disaster. Being a sediment pond its purpose is to settle out stuff. But its main feature is that it takes in lots of water, slows it down, then deposits it in the main pond. During a big rain event it could have multiple complete water changes. Think about an aquarium where you put the faucet in the tank and exchanged all the water several times over all at once. Probably end up with a bunch of dead fish.

My forage pond does not get that type of rapid water exchange. They sit within 50 feet of each other but are night and day difference in the way fish thrive.

My point is, more isn't always better when it comes to water inflow into a pond. If your location is going to have huge runoff for the size of the pond, consider a diversion terrace or some mechanism where you can reduce the inflow if needed to modest amounts. Or control it with a pump. Too much water flow through too quick in short bursts can be detrimental to pond fish.

Specialty ponds
Posted By: Snipe Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/17/20 05:08 AM
Not to jump in the middle here, but there's multiple answers to a 'forage' pond. the guys with LMB are growing BG for forage and then there's guys like me growing a few species of shiners/minnows, and i'm not sure which is easier unless it's just FHM.
Guess i'm just thinking outloud about consideration to what it is you intend to raise.
Posted By: jpsdad Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/17/20 06:11 AM
snipe,

When it comes to minnows, I think nothing is easier than gams. These are some of the more interesting minnows you'll ever come across. Swingle found they added 145 lbs/acre of BG production (stocked 2" at 1500 BG/acre). The percentage increase 87.44%. Remarkable. A similar experiment with BG, LMB, and FHM increased total production by 167 lbs/acre but this experiment was over 12 months (the gam experiment was over 6.5 months). What makes it more remarkable is that they only stocked gams at a rate of 2 lbs/acre. it would take more than 300 lbs of optimal to have done the same thing. Now that's leverage. Gams are one of the few minnows you can rely on to reproduce in the presence of predators. They mate on the fly and protect the eggs inside themselves before hatching. Not being tied to nest protection is a big benefit to them. It's not of much value for large LMB, but this kind of forage would be high value to SMB particularly.

Three seasons ago, my son and I used some of our gams to fish at a local pond where there presently were none. We found the pond infested with small GSF and bluegill. We've never caught an LMB in it and I am convinced none are there. But the pond has some dandy CC. Long story short I asked James to reel in and he dumps the remainder of our minnows in the pond. Maybe 15 or so. Well by fall I saw there were gams present along all of the shores. Now this surprised me given that the pond had so many sunfish. Then last year the population of gams literally exploded in the pond. They were a seething mass . The pond has a ring of APW and this was a good for them evidently. This year, an explosion gams seems to be ready to happen all over again.

The interesting thing about gams is that they like being near shore, and they tend to concentrate there. Can't recall the paper but Gams standing weights per acre are inversely correlated with pond size. I think this is because the ratio of shoreline to area increases in smaller bodies of water. So small forage pond that is long but not wide is ideal for growing them. Gams will kind of limit themselves if they get thick their reproduction will slow down. They produce much more under cropping. Typically, they will only attain a standing weight of less than 100 lbs/acre in monoculture. So how could they possibly help BG gain 145 lbs/acre in a single season? How many lbs/acre of gams would the BG have to consume to gain an extra 145 lbs/acre? Whatever it is, the gams had to have produced many times the carrying capacity and it was the constant cropping of gams that allowed that to happen.

FHM are great in pond with no predators for building a shot in the arm ... but when there are a lot predators interfering with their reproduction ... particularly nest protection ... FHM don't deliver a lot of reproduction with predators. Gams have to be part of arsenal for minnow production. Ideally minnows could utilize the edges, near surface, midwater, and benthic zones of your pond. So the key seems to be the right combination of them.
Posted By: FireIsHot Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/17/20 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by Snipe
Not to jump in the middle here, but there's multiple answers to a 'forage' pond. the guys with LMB are growing BG for forage and then there's guys like me growing a few species of shiners/minnows, and i'm not sure which is easier unless it's just FHM.
Guess i'm just thinking outloud about consideration to what it is you intend to raise.
Snipe, keep thinking out loud. There's never a downside to sharing different perspectives or experiences. It's how we all learn.

What I should have done was make it clearer that my suggestions to Tracy were based solely on getting forage, or undersized hatchery purchased predators, from point A to point B as quickly and cheaply as possible, with as little effort as possible. If there's better or different ways to do that, then believe me, I'm all in as well.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/17/20 01:59 PM
Al, you hit the nail on the head when it comes to what I am looking for in the long run. Cheap with the least amount of effort. Snipe, Keep it up, thinking outloud is why I posted this and to kick the recommendations around for discussion. Minnows may be in the future with the forage pond but here in E Tx. I want something large enough that the lmb/hsb don't burn more energy than they receive when they eat. Minnows seem to small for my goals unless I consider GSH and let them spawn and grow to the 4 to 7" sized and even then they are a fast moving forage fish that might cause the predator's to burn up more energy than they gain.

Bg looks like the way a lot of people go, Like Anthropic, Frank seems to be doing well with what he is producing in his forage pond. And snrub, you are right when it comes to too much water flow through. My sediment pond will grow FHM's but that's about the only thing I can produce there because of turbid water after rains. Rosy Reds don't work because too much pressure on them from Bull Frogs. I have raised many a bull frog in my sediment pond when I have Fhm's in that pond. And too many Bf brings in too many snakes, been there done that.

Going back to what to produce in the forage pond for cheap and easy. And the size to make the job easy. When I made my first trip to Highflyers lake he had 3 small forage ponds and working on a small solar aeration system for them if my memory is working. I think he has rebuilt his forage ponds. I want to see why the rebuild, was it due to size of the ponds? japsdad, talks good numbers of Bg produced in small pond. And I know that Al has done Tp so I wonder if that might work if you can produce enough for stocking 2 to 3" tp in the fall. I added some like that to my pond last fall and my lmb RW's jumped when I did that. Some of the 14" lmb looked like freaks they were so fat after that.
So, maybe 2 small forage ponds instead of a 50 foot'er? And I still am thinking the fresh water prawns might be cheap when adding small ones and feeding them for growth. Neting the bottom of the pond and then use the bucket lift on the tractor to pull the net up for harvest? Like seining shrimp in the gulf? Thoughts?
Posted By: jpsdad Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/17/20 03:54 PM
Quote
And I know that Al has done Tp so I wonder if that might work if you can produce enough for stocking 2 to 3" tp in the fall. I added some like that to my pond last fall and my lmb RW's jumped when I did that.

Tracy, I was thinking you stocked adult TP annually in the spring. Did you not do that last year? Late summer through fall seems like a great time to have an abundance of small TP.

On the problem of sediments stirring while seining, I am reminded of a TP fry production facility that was located on sandy soil that wouldn't hold water. They used Portland cement to bind the substrate. The process involved raking the cement into the soil, firming, and wetting with mist. In short while the cement hardened sufficiently that they could flood the pond and allow further curing. Was probably porous to some degree but they held water and something like this may help with the sediment stirring problem.
Posted By: snrub Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/17/20 07:36 PM
Snipe that is great information on Gams. I have them in my main pond but really have a robust population in my RES/SMB pond. I'm pretty sure they got there by some water, moss and snails I transferred from my forage pond. Have tons of them in the small creek between ponds.

I always figured they might be good for the small MB fingerlings, but I never realized they provided the amount of forage you are suggesting. Figured they would give the SMB fingerlings some good exercise even if they did not provide much "meat". Seems as though they provide more than I thought. Makes me want to go seine some and add some more in my main pond.

Good information.
Posted By: snrub Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/17/20 07:47 PM
Tracy I recall an old old research paper where they raised hybrid fish by using parental pairs. This was back in the day that farm pond fish were more looked at as a food supply rather than recreation fishing.

One of the tests they used I believe used male RES and female BG. I could be backwards on that. They put something like 5 males and 3 females in the pond. Pretty sure ewest posted the study so maybe he knows which it is and can post it again.

The pairs made lots of hybrid offspring. The offspring were mostly male. They were measuring standing crop for food production, but it might work for forage production also.

Would something like that work as a forage system? Keep just a few adults in the forage pond to create annual forage.

One thing I recall is that adding more pairs did not increase the number of recruits because of the additional pressure on the fry from the additional adults. It took only a few pairs to populate the pond to carrying capacity.

I recently put a single CNBG male in my SMB/RES pond to create some limited CNBG/RES hybrids in that pond to up the catch rate of sunfish.
Posted By: jpsdad Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/17/20 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by snrub
Snipe that is great information on Gams. I have them in my main pond but really have a robust population in my RES/SMB pond. I'm pretty sure they got there by some water, moss and snails I transferred from my forage pond. Have tons of them in the small creek between ponds.

I always figured they might be good for the small MB fingerlings, but I never realized they provided the amount of forage you are suggesting. Figured they would give the SMB fingerlings some good exercise even if they did not provide much "meat". Seems as though they provide more than I thought. Makes me want to go seine some and add some more in my main pond.

Good information.

I'm glad you found that of value. Almost didn't post it on account of being off topic. If Snipe makes a thread on his forage pond, I'll delete and move there. Any forage that utilizes niches that are not adequately harvested offer similar potential, like crayfish and your bushy pondweed in the right balance.
Posted By: anthropic Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/18/20 12:14 AM
I have a 1/10 acre forage pond that connects directly with my main BOW. Thus, I can drain the water & fish by opening the sluice gate, which is a lot easier than dragging a seine!

So far I've only raised CNBG caught from my main BOW. They reproduce well, and if fed appropriately can handle even fairly hot water. I don't have an aeration system, so am limited in what I can do somewhat. I just drain the forage pond, looks like a giant water jet at first. Should be doing this soon after electroharvest on Tuesday.

My forage pond fills up gradually by natural runoff. Stays pretty dry in summer, then fills in winter. I've thought about pumping in water from main BOW, but it takes about 500,000 gallons.
Posted By: snrub Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/18/20 10:56 AM
Posting off topic?????

Never stopped me before......LOL

Sometimes tangents make the most interesting threads.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/18/20 12:47 PM
Frank, I wished I had a set up like yours. The place I had planned for your type of set up was pure sand. I dug down to 12' of sand with no clay at all. And it is around 50 yds from my pond. I could not believe it but I dug it myself using a rental excavator. That set me back on my forage pond for the past two yrs. So, I moved the spot and while digging the next spot I almost stuck the excavator in all the muddy clay. I'm not kidding about sticking it. Since then I have not tried again. This time I'm going to hire it done. Sticking or burying a track hoe is not good. I could see it in my mind as I was trying to get out. Ordering out a dozer, buying more chains, or losing a track. Put it this way, I did not get back in that muddy hole once I got out.

Jpsdad, yes I have added tp every spring and last fall I added 50 lbs of 2 to 3" Tp just for forage. Todd Overton will sell at reduced pricing in the fall. Guess it's better than him feeding them all winter. And like I stated, the 14" lmb that I caught looked so fat I could not believe it. They must have gorged themselves. I am talking super shoulders on those fish. Almost a deformed looking fish!! You know, I like adding the Tp in the spring but I saw more benefit by adding them in the fall if just looking at them as forage only.

To be honest guys, right now i am leaning more toward two or three smaller sized forage ponds, like snrub has done. Maybe a 1/10 acre ponds. i like the idea of a couple or three parents in the pond and lots of fry. Down side is I don't think I can raise any numbers of prawns that way. Maybe I'm wrong. Talking of prawns, I tried to contact Upstrum last week by email about his prawns but have not herd back.
Posted By: anthropic Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/18/20 01:09 PM
I thought about raising prawns and tilapia together, hoping not many of the prawns would get eaten if TP were fed well. Not recommended in article, but that was for commercial harvest & a PITA to separate. Mine would be just to feed my LMB in fall.

By the way, I seem to recall someone saying that the prawns do not have the taste or mouth feel of saltwater shrimp, not nearly as good to eat for most people. Anybody try them?
Posted By: Snakebite Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/18/20 01:37 PM
I`ve raised prawns for a few years now. I prefer the taste compared to a saltwater shrimp. It has more of a butter taste and as long as the meat is either consumed quickly after harvest or directly frozen it will maintain the texture.
Posted By: snrub Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/18/20 02:09 PM
Do you raise them for your own consumption or commercially for sale? Care to expand on your experience? Start a new thread about the subject if you prefer, or perhaps you have an old thread on the subject you could direct us to.
Posted By: anthropic Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/18/20 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by Snakebite
I`ve raised prawns for a few years now. I prefer the taste compared to a saltwater shrimp. It has more of a butter taste and as long as the meat is either consumed quickly after harvest or directly frozen it will maintain the texture.

Wow! Do you find that birds are a nuisance? I have a heron at my place that would dearly love to clean me out of anything it can reach.
Posted By: Snakebite Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/19/20 01:41 PM
I do some for my own consumption, but I do sell some locally. I`m in the process of expanding the process so maybe I can document that. I have no issues with birds what so ever. I never see the prawns until near harvest when I start checking for weight per prawn. The only time I can ever remember even seeing them in the pond without me trapping was at night a small amount coming shallow to feed on shoreline aquatics. I would say coons would be the biggest worry.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/20/20 12:46 PM
Can u tell us more on how u raise them? Recent PBM Bob Lusk had a pretty good article on them. He also mentioned a sportsfishing pond or two that just adds them directly into their ponds with survival of some reaching maturity. I found that info pretty interesting. Was thinking might substitute prawns over craws for forage both bass and personal consumption. Do u think one might catch them at night using a light for locating the mature ones?
Posted By: Snakebite Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/20/20 06:26 PM
I use to get them Post Larval PL30 - 45 days old. They would spend the next 3 weeks in large indoor heated aquaculture tanks with lots of netting. I would then transfer to three grow out ponds 20k per pond. Then they spend the next 60 days being fed and growing. I usually sex them at least 4 times during this period.

I only walk the banks at night maybe twice a week, so I have just the limited input. I will say prawns in general are on the dumb side compared to crayfish as defense. Prawns will not spook and shoot away as much as I have noticed walking with crayfish. At night though they seem to change and are very aware of dangers and will use the backward jet takeoff often.

My next question would be why are you looking for the mature ones?
Posted By: canyoncreek Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/21/20 01:16 AM
Gams are in creeks in Kansas? Kansas gets hard water in the winter right? Do gams survive harsh winters? I don't know if any bodies of water in SW MI have gams in them naturally and I'm wondering why?

I found this article from the MI DNR online:

Michigan Department of Natural Resources
Fisheries Technical Report 2003-2, 2003

An Assessment of the Potential Use of Gambusia
for Mosquito Control in Michigan

Robert C. Haas, Michael V. Thomas
Michigan Department of Natural Resources
Lake St. Clair Fisheries Research Station
33135 South River Road
Harrison Township, MI 48045
and
Gary L. Towns
Michigan Department of Natural Resources
Lake Erie Management Unit
38980 Seven Mile Road
Livonia, MI 48152-1006

Abstract.-We reviewed scientific literature and made management recommendations
regarding future introduction of non-native fish species, in the genus Gambusia, for the intended
purpose of controlling pest mosquitoes in Michigan. Gambusia are small, highly aggressive fish
native to the southern United States that have been stocked in nearly every state. They are very
predaceous and will consume small prey animals causing serious environmental damage. A
number of scientific studies in the U.S. and across the world found that introduced Gambusia had
negative effects on native invertebrates, fish, and amphibians. Gambusia stocked in small
Michigan ponds as recently as the late 1970s failed to establish self-sustaining populations.
However, a warming climate would likely increase the ability of Gambusia to overwinter in
Michigan. We followed the American Fisheries Society, Policy Statement for Introduction of
Aquatic Species to determine that the introduction of Gambusia into Michigan waters would have
negative impacts on existing aquatic communities and fisheries, with little or no mosquito control.
We recommend that Gambusia not be used for mosquito control or otherwise be introduced into
the waters of Michigan. Instead, we should protect and enhance the quality of Michigan's
waterways so that native fishes thrive and naturally constrain mosquito populations. Many native
Michigan fish will readily consume mosquito larvae, so if stocking fish is required, we encourage
stocking of native fishes, such as the fathead minnow. We also suggest alternative mosquito
control methods including an educational campaign to inform people of how to reduce man-made
mosquito breeding areas.


Introduction
We have reviewed the scientific literature
dealing with the use of two, very similar species
of non-native fishes in the genus Gambusia
(commonly known as mosquitofish), for the
intended purpose of controlling pest mosquito
populations. This report summarizes our
findings and presents recommendations on how
we think the State of Michigan should approach
this issue. Gambusia are small, harmlesslooking,
guppy-like fish. They are not native to
Michigan and, although introduced here in the
past, are not known to exist at this time in the
wild (see Michigan Dept. Natural Resources
publication "Names of Michigan Fishes",
revised October, 2002).

Two species of Gambusia are native to the
middle and southern portions of the United
States and neither species was originally found
in Michigan (Figure 1, top map). Gambusia
holbrooki is native to Atlantic and Gulf
drainages as far west as Alabama, and north to
Maryland and Illinois. Gambusia affinis
originally ranged from Louisiana to New
Mexico, and north to Kansas and Missouri. The
two species are difficult to distinguish by
external morphology, and were long considered
subspecies of Gambusia affinis. Wooten et al
(1988) provided the genetic basis for the
designation of two discrete species. For the
remainder of this paper, the generic name,
Gambusia, will be used to refer to both species
collectively.

Introducing an exotic organism carries a
substantial risk to the environment and its
natural inhabitants. In many areas of the world,
where Gambusia have been planted for
mosquito control, they have caused serious
environmental damage including harming or
eliminating native fishes and amphibians, and
disrupting natural aquatic food chains. Their
traditional common name, "mosquitofish", has
apparently been misleading to the non-scientific
public because these fish have a popular
reputation for successful control of mosquito
populations. Our review of the scientific,
peer-reviewed literature shows that Gambusia have
not provided effective mosquito control in any
natural setting, despite being introduced for that
purpose in many parts of the world (including
most of the Northern and Western U. S.
Posted By: jpsdad Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/21/20 02:10 AM
canyon,

I agree with the article. Gambusia shouldn't be stocked outside their native range. I would take this as far as to say that G. affinis shouldn't be stocked in the range of G. holbrooki and that P. kadiakensis shouldn't be stocked in the range of P. Paludosis. Neither of the entire grouping should be stocked where they would be outside their native range. All of these reproduce very well and they can not be eradicated easily from waters that can support them.

With regard to Kansas, the Genie is out of the bottle and they are almost ubiquitous. Same thing can be said about LMB. If there are gambusia in the creek, they will find their way into your pond eventually.

According to NAS.USGS.gov they have populations in Michigan and Lake Michigan as well.
Posted By: snrub Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/21/20 03:02 AM
We have had gams in the small seasonal ditches and creeks as long as I can remember. It always amazed me that they could be in a drainage ditch a quarter mile from the main creek. The drainage ditch would dry nearly completely up. Yet when it rained there the gams would be. Even if the ditch completely dried up, as soon as the main creek was flooded enough for a water highway, the gams would be back in that ditch. Way back when I was young had no idea what kind of fish they were. Just called them little minnows. But I am sure they were gams because they were top water mostly just like they are today. We got a ton of them in the little seasonal creek that runs between my ponds right now. I have a rock crossing that I drive the UTV through and hundreds of them scatter each time.
Posted By: Augie Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/22/20 02:00 AM
Gambusia are in every creek and backwater in the central part of Missouri.

They are especially common in the wetlands at Eagle Bluffs CA along the MIssouri River.

Many of the pools there are allowed to dry up completely in the summer, and I expect that many of them freeze to the bottom in a hard winter.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/22/20 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by Snakebite
I use to get them Post Larval PL30 - 45 days old. They would spend the next 3 weeks in large indoor heated aquaculture tanks with lots of netting. I would then transfer to three grow out ponds 20k per pond. Then they spend the next 60 days being fed and growing. I usually sex them at least 4 times during this period.

I only walk the banks at night maybe twice a week, so I have just the limited input. I will say prawns in general are on the dumb side compared to crayfish as defense. Prawns will not spook and shoot away as much as I have noticed walking with crayfish. At night though they seem to change and are very aware of dangers and will use the backward jet takeoff often.

My next question would be why are you looking for the mature ones?

I would like to see some maturity of them at the sportsfishing pond as larger forage and maybe catch a few for myself. Right now, I have a lot of bushy pondweed so lots of cover for them to hid in, so you think that I might see some maturity in them?
Posted By: Snakebite Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/22/20 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by TGW1
Originally Posted by Snakebite
My next question would be why are you looking for the mature ones?

I would like to see some maturity of them at the sportsfishing pond as larger forage and maybe catch a few for myself. Right now, I have a lot of bushy pondweed so lots of cover for them to hid in, so you think that I might see some maturity in them?

This is my opinion only. I would say if the prawns were stock at 60 day old juveniles and you had good cover. There would be a good chance of some making it to maturity. I also think once the predator fish starts to target prawns it will short work. They are very stupid in the daylight it seems and the predator defense is subpar. I have yet to read Bob`s article, but I`m sure it notes they will die at around 55 degree water.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: What size forage pond would u build - 05/23/20 11:32 AM
Thanks for the info. The 60 day old suggestion really helps me make the call of adding them or not. Price for those and shipping cost and shipping survival will now come into play.
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