While the lake was low this summer, I had a small pond added to the top end of my lake. This pond is going to used for raising CNB for forage for the big lake.
So here's my questions. One, the water is obviously muddy from the runoff, and is void of any structure/grass/etc. Should I wait til Spring to stock it, hoping the water settles, and the temp is warm enough to feed the CNB?
Also, should I add any minnows or structure, just to keep a "mini food chain" going? I will fertilize the pond and move a feeder to it, and am not sure if there's an advantage to having just a grow and net pond, or creating a mini lake with grass and minnows.
I do have room for spawning pallets for the minnows, and had a bank sloped for CNB spawning.
CNBG/BG are more predatory than you think. I think it'd help the YOY CNBG population if there were FHM in there too. It'd take some predatory pressure off of the YOY. But, if you were to seine, then to help it go quicker, you'd have to use a seine with larger openings.
It all depends on what size CNBG you intend to remove from that pond to use as stockers.
Any cover in the pond will pose a seining problem, even submerged vegetation or FA.
That's kind off what I thought too. I'll wait til Spring,then stock. I had the banks done step enough that the usual Primrose problem here shouldn't hamper the seining.
I'm planning on pulling 3-5' BG, so we'll see how it goes by fall.
The really nice part about having it back up to the big lake is water level. I'll be able to manually adjust the water level as needed.
With that sized BG, you can use a seine with a larger mesh size so the FHM can swim thru. The downside to that is that the net might act as a gill net when some of the smaller BG want to escape and try to swim thru the net.
I had that problem with the small GSF when using the Fyke Net.
All my rye took, and the approximately .20 acre pond is full and the silt is settling.
So several questions. And, at Lake Fork area of TX.
1) Am I ready for fathead minnows and CNB, or should I wait til Spring, when I start feeding again?
2) I have access to unlimited crayfish from an established private managed lake close to mine. Would these hurt the purpose of the pond for raising CNB as forage for my big lake?
I know I may be trying to much with a pond this size, but are there any potential downsides to having them in the CNB pond?
I'm jonesing for a trip to Overton's, but should I wait, or go ahead with the stocking?
Leaks are a non issue for me. I'm blessed with red clay that has held up like concrete for years.
And as a side note. My dirt guy and I spent as much time this Fall discussing the location of my clay that was removed during reconstruction as we did the actual lake work. We finally have had about 8" of rain in the last month, and my lake has risen almost 3 feet.
The thing I noticed was the way he packed and contoured the dirt so runoff wouldn't affect it. I never imagined that the grades and location of all the extra clay was so important. I literally had no clay leach back into the lake. Nor did I have any major ruts from all the rain.
Today was the day everything came together. I ran to Tyler Fish Farm, and picked up my CNB. Bob only does Thursday/Friday's at the shed, and he said he had 40 to 50 loads today. Spring apparently has sprung.
I ordered a Texas Hunter fish feeder, and got it set up in around 20 minutes. Time will tell if it's as good as everyone says, but based on initial impressions, it's by far the best feeder I've ever purchased. Very easy to set up, and it slings a mile. The wind up of the blower seemed strange at first, but it easy slung Aquamax 500 40 feet, with no food on the bank. It's approximately 5' to the water, and the bank was clean. After the blower wound down, there was absolutely no food left in the bottom of the feeder. I will say this, the output is probably double my other feeders, so be sure and start slow and work your way up.
My whole little project turned out well, from the dirt work, to the rye, to the fish and feeder. Now, all I have left is to pick up my crayfish, and wait on the results.
Hopefully this fall, the CNB will be big enough to survive, and I can just dump them over the dam into the big lake.
No fertilizer. I did use erosion mats though. I got the 6 month mats that should just dissolve by the end of Spring. They kept the seeds from floating away, and the clay from eroding, during all the rain we've had here is North TX.
25 seconds per day with AM600 in the TH feeder is the same feeding rate (or nearly the same feeding rate) as 12 seconds per day with a Stren AquaPro (ADF75) and there is food left in the blower portion of the Stren.
spinnerbait - Yep, and hopefully the plan will pan out. My big lake is work! I absolutely love it, but only being able to devote probably 5 days a month to try to keep everything in check, I wanted a smaller pond to up my forage rate, and get back to feeding and fun. I'm keeping track of the time and dollars spent on the CNB pond, and hope it will be a win-win.
If it produces as I hope, I have 2 more ponds that I may do the same thing to next year.
esshup - So are you saying that the TH throws twice the volume of pellets the Aquapro does per second? That's interesting because I considered the Aquapro ADF75 for my next feeder. Do the pellets left in the feeder get wet and swell, or do they seem to throw correctly on the next cycle?
Dave, hogs in Texas, who would have thought that! HaHa.
Actually, we've been lucky so far, but I've been keeping an eye on our place for signs. So far so good, but it's just a matter of time. We're probably a half mile from the Lake Fork water shed, and I know they're there.
Building a good sturdy platform was my last project, but wasn't happy with the ease of installation.
esshup - So are you saying that the TH throws twice the volume of pellets the Aquapro does per second? That's interesting because I considered the Aquapro ADF75 for my next feeder. Do the pellets left in the feeder get wet and swell, or do they seem to throw correctly on the next cycle?
No, the ADF75 throws more food per second than the TH. It isn't as adjustable and doesn't throw it as far either. Sometimes I've had the AM600 bridge and clog the ADF75, and I've also tried using AM500 in it. When using AM500, I have to install a reducer baffle or it throws a couple pounds of food when set on 1 second. For some reason, when the fan kicks on, it sucks the smaller (and sometimes a few of the larger) pellets from the hopper. They don't get wet because they don't stay in the feeder overnight. Raccoons have found that they can reach the ones that are left behind every night.
FHot, I think I would probably put some hog wire on the sides of the feeder dock and a gate of some kind.
I'm aware of several feeders around Bowie that have wound up in the drink from hogs trying to get to the food. Those suckers are a challenge, pain in the butt and also a pretty good character builder.
Guess what? My new pride and joy got flooded this weekend, and now is part of my big lake.
I hated this after all the work/time and money I put into it, but how can I complain about the rain.
We got approximately 5" of rain in 30 hours, and I'm sure all my bream are now LMB snacks. I'll re-access the CNB left in the small pond tomorrow, and my need to restock.
My big lake is draining like crazy, so even if there's no more rain, I'm good for the year.
Al, Esshup is right, you will need to check the little pond after it returns to normal levels. Otherwise, restocking might be called setting the buffet for them!.
Sorry to see the overflow, but it does beat last year.
I'm just so glad you guys are getting the badly needed rain! A fair amount of the CNBG may very well make it. Since they were not stressed with transport from the hatchery, they have a higher chance of surviving in my opinion.
Well here's the latest. Yesterday we went to check the feeders and get our John Deere unburied. Don't even ask.
I always throw a handful of food out of all the feeders, just to see if the CNB are hanging around, and as I was walking around my CNB breeder pond, I saw a LMB cruising the bank. I came back a little while later with a ultralight and a roadrunner, and caught a 4 pound LMB on the first cast.
The heavy rains we've had here in East TX created a problem I should have foreseen. The quickly rising water levels basically joined both my waters on 3 separate occasions, and I'm thinking my CNB only tank has been hosed.
So, after spending all the time/money/effort for this project, I'll have to rethink all this.
So here's my plan. 1) Seine the CNB pond and check the population for CNB and LMB. 2) Add another galvanized culvert to reroute runoff to the big lake. 3) Add several yards of course rock to the runoff area on the CNB pond to control fish movement between the ponds.
Nothing has been a deal breaker yet, but after figuring out how to pump water into the CNB pond when needed, I never even considered the opposite situation.
FireIsHot. Lusk gave me some good advice many years ago when I stocked about a dozen LMB on top of CNBG/RES initial forage stocking. "Stock seven hand size BG for each LMB and spawn will restore forage base."
It worked and is the basis for our successful CNBG program.
george1, I know you're correct, but it was just one of those oh s... moments. I stocked 1,500 CNB fingerlings, and 30 6"+ CNB, but the smile on that very fat bass when I caught him irked me. If they didn't migrate to the big lake I'll be fine.
Also, thank you very much for the PM info. Very good advice, and I am happy with the choice. I think my big boy rods are staying in the boat for awhile.
Allen, you likely have more survivors than you think - I missed the 30, 6 inch CNBG you stocked, likely on their beds as we speak...you'll be using those "whippy sticks" soon!
Well, I made another trip to our lake and other than FHM nibbling at the Aquamax 500, there is no activity when the feeder throws.
I decided to cut it back to one 1 second throw a day, and just wait.
There are FHM roaming the shallow water, so they stayed put. The palettes I put in for FHM breeder habitat have served me well, and the plastic beer pallets seemed like a good decision. They float well and fluctuate with the water level, so they're always on top.
Until I get rock put in, and reroute the runoff, I think I just have a pretty little pond, and can't think of a reason to restock til that is done.
On the plus side, my big lake feeders are bringing very large CNB in at every feeding.
We are thinking about putting in a hatchery pond as well. We have two lakes on the property and would benefit from being able to add extra forage when every we wanted to. Our Location would not be in jeopardy of flooding like yours. How did the project end up? Have you established a BG seine yet?
Well, the verdict is in. As a brood pond, this failed. I did not foresee the volume of water that would run through the pond, and flow back into the main lake. My feedings have have no results for several weeks, and I'm moving the TX Hunter feeder to another location in my big water. Obviously, the initial stocked CNB followed the water flow, and left the pond.
But, I learned a lot and will reattempt this project next Spring. I think I have come up with a plan that will allow the water to pass, but will keep the fish from getting out. Pics of that, down the road.
On a great note, Momma and I made a "cull trip" this weekend, and stopped fishing when the ice chest was to full to close. We probably caught 50 LMB in 3 hours, including several over 8 pounds. Every LMB under 14" was pulled, so it turned out to be a productive trip.
The best part was the incredible volume of CNB we saw. The lake was literally stacked with forage, and I have no doubt that under any circumstances, my lake is very healthy. Fry to plate size CNB were seen.
And last, thanks to George1 for all his advice on fly fishing, and equipment. My first CNB on a fly rod couldn't have weighed more than 6 ozs, and it was my prize catch of the weekend.
Well, here's the latest update. I let my Texas Hunter Feeder throw til it was empty, to get it ready for it's move to the big lake. When I checked it, it probably had a palm full of food that remained, so I just threw it out by hand into the CNBG pond. Immediately a dozen 2" to 3" CNBG hit the food.
Now I'm really confused. The CNBG were smaller than what I had stocked, and no fish had been added to this pond since the original stocking.
I had decided to wait until my water test results got back from A&M to make any future decisions, but the water came back fine. It had slightly elevated iron numbers, which I expected, but everything else was within range. A beautiful bloom has started, and now I'm back in the brood pond business. I'll net some small CNBG from the big lake and start the whole process again.
I had seen thousands of what I had assumed were FHM swimming around the bank, but they nibbled on the food also.
I refilled the feeder, reset it for 2 1 second throws a day, and decided that maybe the fish and water should dictate my future actions, not me. So, I guess I'm dumber than CNBG fry.
Well, it's been a month, and here's the latest. Both CNBG and FHM are feeding aggressively. I was surprised at the number of CNBG that were feeding, and they were obviously smaller than those originally stocked. So, I'm assuming some of the fish stayed in the pond during the washout. This makes me happy.
I've had to add about a foot of water to keep the pond at pool, and backing it up to the big lake turned out to be a great idea. One semi trash pump, 2 sections of 20' of hose, and 6 gallons of gas later, it's full again.
One thing I noticed was that the FHM really flocked around the pump discharge after I set it just below the water line. It created a vortex, and pulled lot's of air into the pond with the water. The FHM literally swam all around the outflow including the very end.
I also had noticed that the vast majority of CNBG didn't eat the Aquamax when thrown. They waited until it hit the shade, then gobbled it up. Since the pond has no structure, so it's easy to seine later, I had a Pinky and the Brain moment, and tried this. I shot this pic late this afternoon, and shade from the trees had already covered this area.
I built a figure 8 pvc floater that's tied to each bank. I zip tied barricade fencing to it, and pulled it out into the throw area. Today, the CNBG fed in that area also.
I guess the artificial shade increased their range, and I'll be interested to see if it continues. If so, I'll try a better more permanent method using a larger mesh fish netting.
PH
The Lilies I planted are healthy and already opening, and the spiral eel grass looks awful. I'll check back in a week, and hopefully the eel grass will recover from the transplant shock. I was really hoping they would make it.
I do believe the CNBG are from this year, but I've yet to see any of the larger stocked fish hit the feeders.
Birds I don't think are an issue, but still not sure about LMB. I've taken 2 out after multiple line and lure attempts, but have not caught one in the last 3 months. If there's one left, I bet he's fat and happy.
Water temp (related shade) do play a big part in feeding. With no predators present it plays a bigger part as the fish are not as worried about predation but rather optimum feeding conditions. Lots to this when sight advantaged predators (LMB) are present. Then the BG/CNBG are not so inclined to shade where the LMB have the advantage even when the shade provides a little better temp.
We went back to the farm this weekend, and added another 2 pump runs of water. Since I'm blessed with rock hard red clay, this pond is holding water well through the summer heat. Approximately half the pond is covered in shade from afternoon on, so evaporation from the heat seems to be less than my big lake which is dropping quickly now.
Two things I noticed this weekend. One, if you pump water out of one BOW with Naiad, you will get it in the other BOW. I found very small clumps of it several places, and sprayed it accordingly. Who would have thought that?
And two, fish in both BOW were eating very lightly this trip. I have all my feeders spaced 10 minutes apart so I can check them all throw and although the fish fed, there were not the volumes of fish feeding that there were even 3 weeks ago. The heat, water dropping, and summer fronts have all slowed down the buffet. Another couple of weeks, and I'll move all my feeders to hit some deeper water and see if that helps.
The Lilly pads are thriving but the spiral eel grass seems to have died a horrible death. I will try replanting next spring, but I would hesitate to purchase any more plants by mail right now. The heat related to shipping hosed these plants, and although they were packed with cold packs, they just did not survive. I'm not blaming the vender for this, and I will hopefully just learn from my experience.
Well, it's been 5 months, and most of my original fears seemed to just be impatience on my part. I had a work day at the farm yesterday, and there seemed to be thousands of CNBG swimming happily around the small pond. The sizes ranged from 1 1/2" to 6", and there was a good mix of both stocked and newly hatched fish.
They all seemed to eat well now that the Summer heat has eased up a bit, and the FHM were still there by the thousands.
I had purposely left some Naiad and Primrose around the edges of the pond to have an easy visual of the fry's interaction with it, and it was as I expected. Both FHM and CNBG were clustering around the vegetation, so I added porcupines to the deeper part of the pond. Almost immediately after sinking, the FHM moved away from the bank and started ganging up around the added structure.
With my water clarity at around 18" I was able to see large numbers of the larger CNBG in the shallow water that I had graded for a spawning area. To me, that was a good sign.
I also had to load the feeder with Sportman's Choice fish food since I was unable to get my Aquamax 500 prior to the trip. They seemed to eat it well, but hopefully I'll be able to get my Aquamax this next week. My feed store has only been receiving short orders of Purina fish products for the last month or so, so I'll be curious to see if this trend continues. Not sure if the recipe change is causing this, but this has never been an issue before.
I did remove 2 LMB that apparently swam up into the pond during the Spring, when the pond flooded. That's a total of 6 that I've removed since June. They were reluctant to leave to say the least. Unlimited forage, and no protective cover made them fat and happy.
So, other than the few LMB that swam up into the pond, which was my fault, the brood pond is looking to be a huge success. I should have the ability to self stock my big lake next Spring, and that should pay for the dirt work within 2 years.
Lot's of fun, and a good investment also. This has turned into a win win for me.
Just got back from the farm, and the CNBG pond is still doing well. Removed 2 more LMB, so a better runoff barrier is still a priority before the Spring rains. The big lake area next to this pond is extremely shallow, and does not hold fish throughout the year. But, apparently when fresh rain water came in, they immediately tried to swim up stream.
I moved the floating figure 8 almost directly over the porcupines, and had far more CNBG and FHM feed inside it.
Since the weather has cooled off, I only had to add 2 runs of the trash pump to get the pond full again.
Primrose and Naiad are still growing in the pond, but both are manageable. I'm not inclined to chemically remove the primrose since it provides cover for the fry, and the fish really gravitate to it. Since my banks slope quickly, I'm able to just rake out sections of the primrose if needed.
The Naiad on the other hand is harder to manage. I've pulled it out by hand, as the water clarity seems to keep it pinned to the bank. Note to self, good rich water keeps the Naiad from spreading as the available sunlight is diminished.
I also tired some Hydrothol on patches on it with limited results. Who would have thought Kelly Duffie would be correct. I purchased some Aquathol Super K, and will try this next. I did have 1 dead CNBG about 2" long within 8 hours of spreading the Hydrothol, so it's becoming less attractive in this confined pond.
The lilly pads look great, and the dead curly eel grass is spreading nicely. Again, I gave up on it too quickly. It should have a 3rd of the banks nicely covered by next Summer.
So the one question I have is, has anybody tried course rock in a over flow area? The 2 options I see are, a outlet pipe at least as big as the inlet pipe, or dumping approximately a 10' span of coarse rock just to keep the fish from traveling from lake to pond. Has anybody tried this method?
Took no pictures this trip. To be honest, I trapped another beaver and moving and setting new traps kind of took over the weekend. I told my wife several months ago that I had decided to be a mountain man when I retired and just trap for a hobby. Now, I've changed my mine. I'd starve to death. No "live action" for me.
The 8's are doing exactly what I had hoped. They're covered with algae, and the FHM have gravitated away from the bank, and FHM and CNGB are holding and feeding around them.
I look forward to them! I'll be at my farm this week taking down the solar powered sprinklers for the season and testing my solar powered aeration system for the little pond, wish me luck!!
HF, you take pics! We're trying to figure out how to water the garden at the farm since we don't stay there. We were talking about getting IBC water tanks, and rigging up a drip system.
I would be very interested in your set up, and how happy you are with it.
This will be my last post on the CNBG brood pond project til next spring, when I seine the pond and check the results. It has been a great experience, and far exceeded my expectations. I already have a nice mix of stocked and YOY CNBG.
Here’s some of what I learned during this project:
1) Patience. I tended to micromanage this pond because of the size, and that was a mistake. I forgot that things take time, and the ability to wrap myself around this small pond made me impatient.
2) Food size. There is a difference in pellet size when one’s trying to raise fish. I started out only using Aquamax 500, and really didn’t get the results I wanted. When I started feeding Aquamax 400, the water boiled and the 1-3” CNBG really started eating. Matching pellet size to the fish you’re targeting is just smart.
3) Purpose of feeding. If you’re feeding in an area to attract fish, that’s different than feeding fish to grow them. I learned this in my big lake when phosphorus waste became an algae issue. The 15 minute rule does apply, but so does the amount of food that may be missed and float to the bank. Don’t over feed. If you're feeding in an area to attract fish, then less food is necessary.
4) Bank slope. Having the banks sloped a little more than needed, greatly reduced the emergent weed issue. Weeds like Primrose really stay pinned to the bank, and can be controlled with a rake only.
5) Not all weeds are bad. My Primrose is a cheap, controllable source of protection for the fry. I found no reason to over control it.
6) Build down not around. The weather patterns over the last few years have proven to me that the spring rains are the primary catch period. Unless things change, building a project ˝ acre that has an average depth of 8’ may be better than a 1 acre lake with an average depth of 5’.
7) A great dirt guy is not the same as a great pond builder. I am extremely lucky to have a great dirt guy. Having said that, I compromised on decisions I wanted, and it was a mistake on my part, not his.
8) Spend the money up front. It’s far cheaper to dig, or change a pond, before you add the water.
9) Small ponds are greatness. The enjoyment level far exceeded my expectations.
10) Educate yourself before starting. That’s what Pond Boss is about, and searching, researching, and heeding the experts’ advice was the best thing I did. I took time to educate myself before digging, and it really paid off in time and money. A clear and defined goal helps tailor the results.
11) Fertilize. Because of the small size of the pond, I could see immediate results when I fertilized. I only had to use a gallon and a half of fertilizer for the year. The fish loved it, and the weeds hated it. Keeping my water clarity at 12-24” kept weed problems in check, and the foundation of the food chain rolling along nicely.
12) Stock Smart. Buy your brood fish from a reputable hatchery, even if a road trip is involved. This is your primary time to control trash fish, so don't assume your buying what you want. There are several hatchery guys that post here, so seek them out.
13) Kabota’s don’t float. My Dad who’s nearing 80 proved this, and confirmed it 3 more times this year.
Hellow FireIsHot, I read a study on CNBG feed studies and the last section disscussed some of the questions you were asking,ie. structure etc. I downloaded the document and will try to figure out how to attach it here. If I cannot attach, I will provide the email address, after I find it.
Hi again Fire is hot, the email for the dissertation is: https://mospace.umsystem.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10355/8874/research.pdf Nice pond and good luck. I stocked an additional 100 CNBG(2nd stocking) from Overton a week ago,among some other stock. Next year will be my second year working on my pond and hoping for full pool. East TX. is a tough area to get a pond full, unless a well is on ones property.
That is a gold mine of info not seen before wrt BG. It will take a few days to get through it. The study is very well done. Much thanks for the heads up.
If you read it keep in mind its purposes - to find an alternative to fish meal for young BG in closed systems. It is not about supp feeding in ponds for years but about aquaculture of BG to harvest size for food. Here is one key point made ... Diets based on fish meal protein are more likely to meet amino acid requirements of fishes (Gatlin et al. 2007). ]
Well, it's almost time to see how the results of last years project went. Been a rough couple of months, so I haven't wet a hook, or been free to do much other than the typical house husband stuff.
But, I did need a way to control water movement between the 2 puddles, and adding rip rap as a cheap barrier seemed to work. This forage pond gets a lot of runoff from the pasture above us, so the free movement of fish between the puddles compromised my original goal.
The rip rap let the water from our recent rains move through as needed, but should keep fish movement to a minimum. I'll know more after I drop the water level, seine, and check the results.
I’m a lucky guy - got to go to Al’s place today to view his current forage/grow-out pond and discuss and plans, but first an introduction to a “jaw dropping” beautiful view of his place:
Al will give an update to his plans and objectives, but long story short - he is starting over on stocking and forage since his little pond was flooded last year and discovered LMB encroachment. I had an opportunity to observe his draining and discussion about seining and stocking plans:
Eric, Al has plans to dig another small pond for brood fish but after I had a close view and how it was constructed, I immediately thought about your success with “blocking nets. I suggested that he review your experience - could you provide links to your posts? This approach may prove useful for this year’s program until time permits for his new small pond?
Al, thanks for a great day and opportunity to learn some new pond management tricks! George
Pond's down tonight after 2 runs of the 3" pump. I got the 8 hour Honda, and was surprised at the difference in volume in that and my old 2" pumps.
Back to farm tomorrow to hopefully get pond low enough to seine, and then see what Mother Nature left me from last year. We did have a few red ears? that came up with the pallets, and I'm assuming late Fall, early Winter spawn?
We had stocked a 85/15 mix on bluegill, so hopefully I have 2 or 3 different classes of fish.
Looking at installing a slide valve gate and drain on the next pond, and it will be attached to the main puddle like this one.
Eric, what we were talking about today is installing the blocking net across the pond where it narrows in the pic above. Would this be viable for a temporary grow out pond until the other pond is finished?
They are not many GSF in this part of Va.,I have been fishing here for 39 years and have never seen one. I stocked several hundred hybrid BG but they died out in 4 or 5 years and left no GSF. I love catching them.
....................................................... Eric, what we were talking about today is installing the blocking net across the pond where it narrows in the pic above. Would this be viable for a temporary grow out pond until the other pond is finished?
Al, Eric has published articles in PB magazine about blocking nets but I have passed my copies to son Jeff – you may have the back issues. January/February – 2007 “A Hatchery Pond Inside a Pond – Blocking Nets”
If you are referring to the fish in the pic as a redear, it is not. It is most likely a pure GSF or a hybrid with a pile of GSF genetics in it...
Ok then. I found another one on the bank today that had 5 very distinct vertical stripes. Crossbreed?
Probably happened when my pond flooded last year, but I have a plan for them. Seine and Lime Saturday morning, then restock next week with OTS CNBG. The pond was getting wiped anyway, so at least I didn't make another oop's. Thanks for the head's up, and thanks for the compliments. It's too much work.
Eric, thanks for the help. The netting might work perfect for this pond since it is basically a deep bowl, and has an approximately 130' channel that goes from 8' deep to the shore. I had it shaped this way for spawning beds, and the net's span wouldn't be more than 40' at the widest point.
I'm really not inclined to dig another pond at this point, so a blocking net would be the perfect solution.
Al check your email. Before you buy a net check on rigid plastic fencing/netting. It comes in rolls of different size mesh and lengths and heights. It is easy to roll out and D ring to poles to divide ponds or make pens. Much easier to take care of than netting. 1/4 inch is good for raising BG.
Yesterday. Got him, but lost him and a 330. He chewed through the cable and made a hasty retreat back into the hut under a road culvert. I think he's off the list though as I punched out the trails, repacked with clay, matted, and then dropped a ton of limestone rip rap on top. Other 2 traps caught nothing yet.
TJ, thanks. Spent a lot of money up front for the infrastructure, etc. but it's been worth it. And you will see it! You're on the approved cool kid list.
"Slugs and snails are after me DDT keeps me happy Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em That I got no cerebellum Gonna get my Ph.D. I'm a teenage lobotomy"
Nope, didn't see it. It was a spot that I had to lay the trap flat because of access issues, and I'm sure I caught an appendage of some sort. The wire led back into the hut, and was chewed through. I'm going to chains with the next batch. Beavers will chew through braided wire!
I use dog chains. I have never seen a beaver survive a 330. I had a very large (12-14 inches in dia.) snapping turtle crawl into a 330. It cracked his shell open like an egg.
Only had 2 traps go missing. One was stolen as the chain stake and spring stakes were pulled up straight out of the hole and no sign of disturbance at the trap. The other was a mess of fur , blood ect at the trap site with an obvious trail. In that case I found the trap (with beaver bones) about 50 yards away where the yotes had dragged the beaver and trap to their lunch spot.
FIH, if you need to use a leg hold trap (the way you used the 330) you have to make a drowning set 'cause they will either chew thru the wire like you found out, or will pull up the stake. In any case, pulling a beaver out of a hole while it's still alive is dangerous. They WILL bite.
Once I set a trap for a muskrat (in it's run where it came out from the bank) and I barely had it set and it came out of the hole. I immediately reached for the trap and was lucky that when it tried to bite my hand, it bit between my fingers. Lesson learned - they don't die immediately - it might take them a while. Not to sound cruel, but the trap could break their back and they drown if they're moving fast enough. I've caught 'rats by the hindquarters after they've almost gone thru a 110. I don't know if the trap was slow, or the 'rat was fast.
Next trip down, show me the setup for the leg trap. I'm having mixed results with the 330's and shallow banks, and I need a different approach.
Beavers get smart quick, and judging by damage, I should only have 1 or 2 left. I've held up on adding any more Christmas tree structure, because they stripped the few I put out to the trunk.
I know where the last active hut is, but so far I'm not having good luck with him.
Find where the entrance/exit is to the hut. It should be underwater, and you should see a shallow channel in the pond bottom. Set the 330 as close to the entrance as you can without having the trap hit the entrance when it snaps shut.
You are correct, they can become VERY smart once they escape a trap.
Have you looked into snares? They work in areas where 330's and legholds won't.
I have shot them before. You get one shot so make it count. After that they are next to impossible to shoot without night vision equipment. If you have several you will shoot 1 maybe 2 and the rest you will have to trap.
I had one big male who learned to stick pine limbs in the traps to set them off. No it was not him going back in the water carrying dinner home. I missed him about 10 times each one with a wrist sized 3 ft long pine limb left in the trap. It took me 2 years to catch him. I found where he was eating (fresh tree cut) and blocked the entire access area with stakes except one place. Did not set a trap for a week so he would get used to the trail. Then I set 2 traps one in the water and one directly behind on shore. He used the pine limb trick to get the onshore trap but with the in water trap he cut the margin of error to close. He tried to use the pine limb trick on that one but his limb was 4 inches to short. 330 hit him in the top of the head - lights out !
We shot 15 last year, 7 in one day, we did have one that took a couple of weeks. Since the ponds are on the river,they just keep coming in. Travis' dad caught 6 and there was fresh sign out Sun. It is an ongoing fight with them but we haven't seen or trapped a rat in 3 years. They are easier to kill at daybreak. 260 or 7mm/08 is perfect.
No rats here just beaver. Once or twice I thought they may be rats due to grass being cut. But the beaver here eat strange stuff. Food of choice is pine and gum trees and grass then cypress and willow. They don't eat hardwoods if the other is available.
Ewest,I think they are like us, in that they want something different to eat. Beavers eat willows, then river birch and green ash in that order here. We have a clump of thirty some cypresses in my duck pond but they haven't chomped on them in 10 years. They are my favorite trees. Have you ever seen a sycamore cut by a beaver, they appear to be the only tree they don't eat here.
I had one big male who learned to stick pine limbs in the traps to set them off.
Thanks for that info. Same thing has been happening to me on one particular run with 2 different 330's, so I knew it wasn't a falty trap. That's hard to believe, but it makes sense.
I did the dusk shooting, and got a few, then they disappeared. I shot one at daylight, then they disappeared. So this last trip I set up a game camera, and hopefully they'll come out at the same time during the night. If so, I'll try them then.
The camera is a great idea. I may try that. Problem here is they don't have fixed dens. These guys often dig holes in the bank and move from hole to hole. A big problem because you can't set a trap at the run. Have to find where they are currently eating and reset.
Originally Posted By: kenc
Have you ever seen a sycamore cut by a beaver, they appear to be the only tree they don't eat here.
I have not seen that here nor do they eat oaks or hickory but they love birch. For some reason the first thing they eat are pines.
The seining went well, but it was a beating. Next brood/grow out pond will be no deeper than 5'. With my access to water, there was no reason for the deeper water. I learned something.
After seining, liming, and refilling, we restocked this CNBG pond with 1,000 OTS CNBG, and 10 pounds of FHM's from Overton's Fisheries yesterday.
Last year's flood hosed this pond, so starting over was my only option. I was concerned about visitors from the big puddle, and boy did I have them. Although I had 6 of the original 10 CNBG kickers from Todd still in this pond, I also had various sunfish and CNBG/GSF crosses.
New year with great genetics, flooding problems fixed, and time to start all over.
Oh, in case you want to see what a 2-3 YO LMB that has unlimited access to forage for 10 months looks like, this is it. We pulled out 5 of these and relocated them to another pond on my property, but that's another story.
We were moving so many fish so fast we didn't even weigh her. She along with the 4 other similar females got a very good new home with a forage rich environment. Be interesting to see how big they can get with unlimited forage and no ability to overpopulate. No LMB are in this pond, so no reproduction. We hope.
If Allan's bass weighed 5 lbs its condition factor (RW) would be 128. If it weighed 5.5 lbs the RW would be 141.
IMO those young bluegill above are a little too small for optimum growth of that 19" bass.
Bill, the LMB was seined from contaminated flooded forage pond prior to final draining and hydrated liming. The "young blugill above" are new "cream of the crop" OTS CNBG stocked after forage pond was refilled with lake water.
One of the suggestions I had received during restocking was to cage the water inlet pipe to prevent contamination, and lime any puddles that could potentially hold small sunfish. I'm glad I did this since we had big rains roll through East TX yesterday, and we had lot's of water moving into the CNBG pond. Hopefully there will be no cross contamination this year.
The water had cleared nicely after refilling, and has about 18" of clarity. I will fertilize, and add pallets for the FHM this week. Water is at 66 degrees and steady.
I've been unable to get any shipments of Aquamax yet, so I had been hand feeding AM 500 with no results. This weekend, I crushed the pellets, and tried again. The CNBG fry boiled the water. Dumb me again, because I should have known this. After several crushed feedings, I just threw 500 out, and they attacked it. I guess they just had to adapt to the different sized food. I ordered AM 400, so that should be about right for the feedings.
2 threads that will be of great help on my future growout pond build have been active in the last few weeks. I learn something every day here at PB, and being able to easily drain the pond and remove the fish is just as important as being able to raise the fish.
Dave, I'm ready for Tues/Weds. Colder and more rain! We got almost 2" this weekend.
Actually, it was a great weekend the more I think about it. Fish were eating, got some much needed rain, it was chick day at the feed store so there were lot's of little country kids just beaming with excitement, Hooten's had every ag dealer for a hundred miles there, and First Monday at Canton.
Makes me wish I could just dump town, and hit the road. What a great Easter weekend to be in the country.
The disaster of last year seems to corrected itself via the lack of rain. After this Spring's stocking, there haven't been any issues other than the fluctuating temps that made early feedings sporadic.
Made a big puddle cull trip with George today, and we wanted a hook and line survey of this brood pond. We caught about 10 in the 4-5" range, and all were healthy.
I was going to treat this pond with Alum, but have decided to wait and fill it to full pool while i can still access water from the big puddle. That water is very healthy and clear, so any further decisions will wait til the brood ponds settles. So far though, this year has gone according to plan. That's very rare for me.
Also, thousands of 1" to 1 1/2" CNBG swimming the banks, and fighting over pellets. Looks like I've already had a good spawn.
Here's a OTS CNBG with good conformation markings.
After a decision not to Alum this brood pond last week, I decided the first thing to do was to refill it to full pool because of the drought, and recheck turbidity in 2 months.
I was losing access to water, so 3" PVC pipe and fittings were used to extend my reach to clear big puddle water.
The pump below should be completely underwater, but as you can see, it ain't. 20' of PVC was used to extend the reach to the pump, and the inlet was screened and caged.
One issue I wished to avoid, was creating more silt by just dumping the fresh water into the pond. Most soft outlet hoses flail in the water because of pump pulses, so I added a 5' rigid extension to the outlet, floated it, and used a 300 micron filter bag to catch any possible weeds pumped into pond.
Assembled rig.
The rigid pipe, filter, and float worked perfectly. When I left last night, the filter bag was easily a third full of various big puddle weeds, and no soil disturbance was created.
CNBG and FHM's were loving the fresh water, and no silt or weeds were added during the refill. Quick, cheap and easy method for water exchanges.
Eric, funny how adding clean fresh water cleared things up and made the fish happy. Alum isn't a have-to any more.
I hope those are FHM's.
I'm guilty of under managing my weeds, but the FHM's and CNBG fry were visible by the thousands yesterday after the water rise. I left Johnson and Dallis grass around the edges, and they immediately started migrating to those areas. I know it will die, but I was surprised at the numbers.
I will add something else. I have been feeding Cargill in the comparable Aquamax 400 size. CNBG have aggressively been eating, and I've increased the throw times. When I threw out a handfull of 500 AM, the feeding really slowed to a trickle. Since these CNBG will be added to the big puddle as quickly as possible, being observant in letting the fish tell you what they want, paid off. Will go to a 400/500 mix later this summer. Then everybody should get fed.
CNBG pond has been filled back to pool, and the fish are happy. Since this pond is in a depression, the water had become stagnant and needed some TLC. Adding the clearer big puddle water negated and need for Alum, and the prevailing southerly winds keep the water moving.
Hardy Lilly pads were re-added to the pond, and all seems good. Vallisneria, Corkscrew (Vallisneria americana var. biwaensis) will also be re-added when things cool off a smidge.
I will also add, with a disclaimer for accuracy, that preferred aquatic plants do help keep the water clearer. My personal experience has been that suspended particles do adhere to plants, and FHM love the protection. With the weeds flooded, tens of thousands of FHM have moved into the protected water.
My CNBG continue to eat aggressively, and are much easier to see coming to the pellets with the fresh water.
Full Pool
Flooded weeds
High Tech depth gauge. If the rock's dry, the water's falling. If it's wet, the water's rising.
Very nice. Those cnbg look great nice coloration I am planning on contacting todd and stocking some this fall when it cools a bit. I probably missed this earlier in thread but how big is cnbg pond? My pond is 1/4 acre and I am wondering about how many to stock with the plan being to stock hsb as well.
I stocked 1,000 CNBG, and 10 pounds of FHM. I probably understocked it, but I really didn't want to create any more work. I think with proper management, it could easily hold double or triple that amount. I've really enjoyed this pond more than my big puddle.
Somebody else will need to chime in on a CNBG/HSB stocking ratios. This was set up for a put and take forage pond only.
I agree with the Fall stocking. Handling and transporting fish during 100 degree weather can get sketchy.
Thanks for the advice Al. New to this and reading through some of your old posts have learned alot fast. Also loved the high tech depth gauge. I employ the same one...very effective. Thanks again.
Not sure yet how many I'll take out, but I know I've one spawn. Hopefully with no predators, I've got self sustaining numbers by now. Fresh genetics every couple of years will be all I need.
Thanks guys. I probably could have started moving them earlier this summer, but I wanted to get them a tad bigger to get them though to the first spawn next year.
With all the LMB taken out of the big puddle this year, I should have a forage rich environment by next summer. At least I hope I do.
we had a forage pond just like yours.... till the heat got it and dried it up... . we were pulling out 2-5' cbg when we'd siegn ..and feed the other ponds....worked quite well... we also had a 200# streen feeder feeding them... .fat little guys..
It's cold and windy and I'm bored, so here's a small update.
The rip rap I added to act as a fish barrier worked well. It was primarily added to keep LMB from entering this pond during high water periods, but it flowed well with our recent heavy rains. I did not want to add a conventional fence barrier here because of potential blockage problems, so all turned out good.
I also aggressively managed the shoreline weeds and transplanted Bermuda plugs this Summer and this has really kept the shoreline clean and made the dam very easy to take care of.
I had intended to seine and size the CNBG this Fall, but waited due to an Eurasian Watermilfoil outbreak in this pond. That has been corrected, so we'll pick a nice day and move some fish.
I've just read this whole thread from start to finish.
Thanks FireIsHot for documenting your project. I have toyed with the idea of putting a small forage pond next to my main pond next spring.
Being able to see what you have done from start up to this point is a great service you have provided for the rest of us to learn from your success as well as your mistakes.
As silly as it sounds, I've watched golf courses over the years to know when to fertilize, spray weeds, overseed, etc. I noticed most had nursery areas where they groomed turf grass to fill in bare spots on the course itself. So, I have an area where I spray and mow Bermuda and use those for plugs.
I usually just get a few plugs at a time with a sharp shooter, and place them close to the water line so no watering is required. Once they root, they spread like crazy.
No wind this morning, so I decided to finally pull some CNBG by hook and line. Guess what? I've got green sunfish again. Big beautiful ones I might add. I tried to do everything right after the last time this happened. Drain, seine, and used hydrated lime to kill out the pond. Set up a blocking net at the inlet, and rock barrier at the overflow. I still got them.
I think I'll wait until later in the year, and drain the pond again. This will be a good opportunity to get the pond rebuilt the way I should have done it in the first place. Good news is the CNBG I did catch from last year's stocking looked great. I waited to pull these fish until they were large enough to spawn. They are. I transferred 30 to the big puddle, and all were in the 7 to 7 3/4" range.
The sunfish, sunfish bluegill hybrids, and all small CNBG will go in the back pond that I had put the 4 female LMB in last year. All the adult CNBG from the original stocking will go in the big puddle. No fish will go to waste.
Tony, I'm walking on egg shells here, and will deny anything I might say after this.
The bluegill/sunfish hybrids were BRUTES! There, I said it. I'm glad anything you post on the internet goes away in a month or two.
Tony, I can see the appeal there for you. My CNBG goals are pretty well defined, and I'm getting closer every day, but I don't see a need to waste these hybrids. They were in the 5-6" range, but easily twice as wide as the pure CNBG.
This will be their new home. It has been cleaned up a smidge since this pic was taken.
Dave you're being hurtful. I was going to say that my CNBG led a sheltered life, but that obviously isn't the case. There were a few fish that I questioned, so I'll try to get some more pics today.
Thankfully it's not! I decided these largest CNBG are all that will go into the big puddle until I can get a better feel for some of the smaller fish that I'm almost sure are hybrids. The good part of all this is that whatever happened, happened months after the restocking so the culling should be pretty straight forward.
esshup, I've pretty well decided that this pond location is going to be a battle forever, and I'll need to move some dirt this year. Either reroute runoff from the pasture above mine, which will be an epic ordeal, or just build another brood pond that can be better controlled.
I haven’t posted anything on this thread in a while, because there’s been nothing new to add. When I started this pond, the purpose was for breeders, not forage. Since all I was wanting was CNBG big enough to survive the LMB, I waited until most of the males hit 8”. The female CNBG are currently 6” to 6. ˝”.
So it’s time to pull the CNBG. I bought a hoop net, and will try to get some numbers moved this weekend.
I did notice that any hybrids I caught by hook and line were 3” to 5" so the GSF infestation probably happened last fall. This has made it easier to identify and pull them for relocation. After cutting their tail off, the pure GSF I catch are being fed to my LMB, and they love them.
Tony, I hope so. IIRC, these pics are from the end of April, and M/F are slightly longer right now. I've talked to Todd Overton several times during all this about the characteristics of the OTS CNBG strain. They should be getting taller and broader as the length gains slow down. I've caught several 11+" native Florida CNBG out of the big puddle this year, and none of the them held the weight I felt like they should. I'm hoping these will.
The brood pond is dead, long live the grow out pond.
We made a trip to Overton's yesterday, and Todd and I banged around some thoughts about the brood pond and it's possible potential. What we came up with is the full potential of a small pond, with the ability to drop and raise water as desired, control recruitment, and grow stocked fish until they were survivable in the big pond, was the way to go.
So, hybrid stripers, and a small stocking of Camelot Bell LMB is what we decided on. The CNBG that are being pulled, are 6-8", and are large enough to survive the grow out of HSB/CB's until spring. The brood pond is also loaded with 3" and under CNBG, hybrid BG, and GSF. Those and continued winter feedings should get the HSB to the 14"s I need to keep the HSB from getting eaten by my larger LMB.
Who knows what's on the table next? Winter trout or SMB? I figure I have 4-5 months each year to try something new and take advantage of the cooler water, so why not take a chance on a limited and controllable scale, with no real downside.
HSB and CB stocked in the brood/grow out pond.
My LMB in the big puddle are also very happy this morning. Just like most predators, the smaller LMB are gorging on the 3-5" crayfish that are size appropriate for them. The larger LMB are waiting for larger GSF/CNBG hand feedings, and will swim away from the crayfish. Yep, they're spoiled, but the results of the hand feedings have been almost immediate, but that's another story for another time.
Hi FIH, great thread that has generated great posts and opinions along with a lot of facts based on experience etc. I have read several portions, and then reread them as time has gone on, just like today a complete reread. I appreciate all the info and the time you have taken to keep us up on your continued developments in pond management.
I know know that the next time I have some dirt work done, it will include at least one small(hopefully three) brood ponds. You and others who do this type of pond management have peaked my desire to do a bit more. I guess I am saying that one pond is just not enough! I hope you keep this going for a long time.
mpc, small 1/4 acre and below ponds are a blast. The best advice I could give anybody down here would to make sure they're close to a water source, either a bigger pond or water well, that allows you to flush or add water as needed. I've certainly had issues with this one(most problems were my own doings), but no problem was really unfixable if a 2-3" water pump was handy.
I've been very lucky, and seen some great small ponds that really produce. TJ and Highflyer's ponds come to mind. The ones I'll try to see at some point, belong to sprkplug. He has some crazy good hybrid BG stuff going on, and he really knows his fish.
Having looked back over this thread, it was your forage pond getting flooded and messing up your perfect plan that made me be aware of the possibility in my forage pond. My elevation of the forage pond, like yours, is so close to the main pond that a big rain event could back the big pond up into the forage pond.
So I was very careful in the planning of the overflow tube so this hopefully will not happen. It still could, but it will take a Noah type flood in which worries will be on things other than my forage pond if it happens.
So what I am trying to say, is thanks for documenting your pond progress on this thread. It likely will keep me from having the same flooding problem you had. PBF member helping another PBF member by sharing information.
My sediment pond will also be a forage pond till a too large rain event happens. It was just too close to the same elevation and fed by a terrace that tops the very top of a hill there was no way I could design it to not get it flooded some day when we have 12 inches of rain in 48 hours, which we will again some day. But till that happens, it is raising CNGB and RES and FHM.
I hope my thread documenting my forage pond will likewise help someone out some day.
Nice!!! You got Goldens! They are nice to watch swim around in the pond, expecially when you feed 'em. I prefer them to Rainbows because you can see 'em and because they seem to be more agressive towards lures than regular RBT. In my experience, taste is the same.
Now you're going to have to start looking up trout recipes!
How did the seining go??? Been waiting for an update!
Tony, we got about 20. I'm guessing, since they are sold by the pound. The pond should handle those quite well after a 3 day water flush to just freshen things up.
As far as the seining? I killed hundreds if not thousands of small CNBG due to my self imposed haste. Very traumatic experience, that I will not repeat again. I'm trying to figure out how to post and relate the whole deal, and make sure my errors can be avoided by others. The big CNBG did just fine during the seining and transfer to the big puddle, and we accomplished our stocking goal, but at a high cost to both my psyche and CNBG fry.
Scott, I'm absolutely stoked about the trout. I'll give them until after Christmas before I actively target them. A little birdie told me I have a new Sage flyrod under the Christmas tree, and I think the trout would be the perfect first fish for that.
And yep, recipes are already in the works. You eat trout fresh and not frozen, correct?
How often have we heard: "You're not a real pondmeister until you've killed a bunch of fish"?
I try to learn from my mistakes, which are frequent and numerous, and apply that towards future endeavors.
Healing wounded pride? That's a tough one. My own sense of pride is covered in scars, scratches, scrapes and punctures. I tell myself that it provides a sense of character.
The 2 pulls we made easily had over a hundred pounds of fish per pull. Instead of thinking of 100 pounds as a single entity, I should have sorted the fish in 10 pound batches, and just dealt with that 20 times while the fish remained contently netted in the pond.
Tony, my pride is pretty scared up right now also. I learned a lot, and will make sure things go better in April/May when we do the next seining. I will get it right.
Tony, my pride is pretty scared up right now also. I learned a lot, and will make sure things go better in April/May when we do the next seining. I will get it right.
Of that, I have absolutely no doubt. You'll get it done exactly like you hope next time, Al.
Sorry guys, I've been reading the cold water feeding thread, and I'm speechless right now.
Rex, I know they came from one of the big hatcheries in Missouri, but that's about it. The brood pond still has tons of fry, so we're hoping for great growth, and this becomes an annual deal for us.
Arkansas and Missouri seem to be really big players in the fish business. Arkansas is also the biggest player in forestry service sales.
Does anybody have a clue why? Is it water, weather, location, etc.?
I wanted my brood pond CNBG to be big enough to survive the smaller LMB. I had originally wanted forage only, but decided that larger CNBG that could spawn as soon as spring was here was a better option for me. All the CNBG that were moved were in the 5-8.5" range.
I had a large number of CNBG, a few Camelot Bell's, and HSB in the pond, so I needed to lessen the fish load before the trout got here.
We'll seine again in April/May to remove the HSB. The trout should be toast, and the HSB will be in the 12-14" by then. Again, large enough to survive most of the LMB.
Sorry guys, I've been reading the cold water feeding thread, and I'm speechless right now.
Rex, I know they came from one of the big hatcheries in Missouri, but that's about it. The brood pond still has tons of fry, so we're hoping for great growth, and this becomes an annual deal for us.
Arkansas and Missouri seem to be really big players in the fish business. Arkansas is also the biggest player in forestry service sales.
Does anybody have a clue why? Is it water, weather, location, etc.?
I'm pretty speechless myself, now...lol
Al, I'm positive those are Emmerson Strain trout from Crystal Lake Fisheries in Ava, MO...amazingly good genetics!! You'll love the growth, taste and fight. Todd3138 and Catmandoo can tell ya...
Arkansas is blessed with climate and VERY abundant water just below very fertile soils in the Delta regions. Miles and miles of flat ground originally planted as rice and cotton fields had high capacity wells installed and are easily converted for raising fish. The seemingly endless hills of AR have a wide variety of timber also. Some of the virgin, old growth forests are nothing less than amazing to walk through...
Al, I get my timber stand chemicals from a place in Ar. My chemical suppliers up here don't know what I'm talking about when I ask for some chemicals, and the place down there has them in stock.
Rex, the abundant water and available land in Arkansas makes sense. That may explain the forestry part also.
Scott, I don't need seining 101 help, I need "stop and think about what you're doing D**b A*s" help. Highflyer brought new member Sid over for a meet and greet while all this was going on, and it was obvious to highflyer what my problems were. He was correct.
Todd Overton brought my trout up, and we talked it all out, and now I "think" I have a grip on how to do the post-seining movement of fish better. Luckily for my wife, we had a trout delivery, or the nets would have been back in the water that day.
Since I'm a couple years behind you on the forage pond, and your pond was one of the forage ponds that caused me to try my own, I'll be watching you carefully!
I would prefer you make the mistakes and report the proper corrections so I don't have to repeat them!
But seriously, Carolynn & I like a good excuse for a motorcycle trip in the warmer months. If it works out, never know, I might show up. Don't be afraid to ask.
But seriously, Carolynn & I like a good excuse for a motorcycle trip in the warmer months. If it works out, never know, I might show up. Don't be afraid to ask.
When we seined this brood pond in preparation for the trout stocking, 90% of what we did worked well.
The seine itself was correctly sized for the pond, was knot-less to prevent damage to the CNBG, we had two 110 gallon tubs set up close to the pond for sorting, 150 quart aerated coolers were loaded in the Mule for the transport to the habituation area, and logistically, everything ran smoothly. Unfortunately, the other 10%, which was the most important part, was clean sorting tank water, and proper O2. That was where I dropped the ball.
The tub that we put the fish in immediately after they were pulled from the pond became muddier, and muddier, and at that point we should have stopped the process, drained the tubs and add clean water, and regroup. The larger CNBG did fine once they hit the second tub, and the vast majority of those fish did just fine once they were settled in the big pond. A few 2-4" morts (less than 30) were found the next morning in the habituation area, but very few in relation to the amount of fish that were moved. All these fish came from the second tub, which was much cleaner than the first tub. In the first tub, which was extremely muddy, and held more fish while the others were being sorted, the fish fared very poorly.
After a week of reflection, there are 2 things that immediately come to mind, and I can do better. One, slow down and only move as many fish as my tubs can comfortably handle, and stop if O2 or the water quality in the sorting tubs becomes compromised. And two, I need more O2 in those tubs. Because I have 2 remote ponds, I decided to stay with the 110 gallon tubs because each one can fit in the back of a Mule, go with salt and stay away from aftermarket solutions, and use Point Four micro bubble diffusers during sorting.
We have a cattle tank with GSF only that we’ll seine next month in preparation for future stockings, and get the process down better.
It's hard to see because of the light, but the banks in the brood pond were covered in CNBG beds. I have easy access to water from the big puddle, so this pond stays at a constant level. I have to admit I was surprised how shallow the beds were. Most were less than 18" from the surface.
The non-structured floating net did great. All the GSF went in here for easy retrieval during LMB feedings.
The tubs used to hold and sort fish.
This is our habituation area. It's 3' deep gut, and is close to the area I want the CNBG to stay. After 24 hours, I just pulled the end of the net back, and the newly stocked CNBG wandered out when they were ready. I don't mean to get off topic on my own thread, but I greatly underestimated the value of habituation in ponds that have large alpha predators. Over the course of 8 months, I released close to 100 single CNBG at the feeder, and easily 30% to 40% were singled out and targeted by my LMB. If it was panic, or a different colorization because of the difference in water clarity, I don't know. But even when schools of resident CNBG were present, these single fish were actively targeted by multiple LMB. Ewest and others have excellent documentation on habituation, and I thank them for that. If you have the time, and have an older pond with large predators, then habituation makes sense to me now. It took a while, but I finally got it.
Finally, a short video of CNBG ready to be sorted into smaller batches, and moved.
Looks like a great setup Al. It's been my experience that even when I think I have all the bases covered, a glitch or two usually manifests themselves. I think that's par for the course when developing a strategy that works.
Next time it will run even smoother! Thanks for sharing the photos...it gives me an idea or two.
We had a massive front roll though this winter with 50 mph winds. I was out retrieving a 5X5X4 fish cage that was rolling through the hay meadow, and forgot to park into the wind. Very shortly thereafter, I was chasing a cage and a hood through the hay meadow.
Yes it does look like one. I just pull it up on shore, net what I want, then throw it back out. The greenies get their tail fins cut off.
Snrub one of the online pond supply places has nets very similar to these, and I thought they were a bit expensive, so I made that one out of irrigation tubing and noodles, which I already had. The netting is available at any commercial net store by the foot, so they can be made any diameter, and with any net size you want. I've got about $30 in this one, including the netting. I'm not sure I would keep fish in it for any length of time, but it does work well for what I'm wanting.
Could you post a link to where you got your seine? Also could you elaborate on how it was constructed?
What Cecil and I noticed was the same thing that you did. The first tank where the fish were transferred to from the seine got muddy and had FA floating in it. We ran an electric sump pump from the pond to the tank, letting the FA float out with the water, and the inflow of fresh(er) clear(er) water helped mitigate muddy water issues with the fish fills. IIRC the sump pump ran the whole time we were seining, and the excess water just ran back into the pond.
If you get a bait handlers net, which has a flat bottom, it's easier to scoop the fish from the seine and from the tanks.
I also have a fyke net from Miller, but so far its management value is just an urban myth to me. I know you'll change that in Feb after the conference.
As far as the selection of the net itself, I decided to go with a 75' X 10' net which gave me the most options for my particular ponds. 1/2" knotless netting was used to help keep the fish abrasion to a minimum, and hopefully let fry pass through. Also, 1/2" netting seemed easier to pull than my smaller 1/4" nets. If someone wants to remove as many small fish as possible, then maybe 1/4" should used?
I also added a heavier top and bottom rope for help with abrasion, heavier bottom weights to keep the net pinned to the bottom, and a treatment to the net to make sure it lasted as long as possible. A buy once kind of thing.
This was my first "big" net purchase, and I'm very happy with it. From shopping and comparing pricing at various net companies, it's far, far cheaper to just buy the net you may ultimately need, instead of trying to save a few dollars, and get stuck 10' short down the road. Quality nets certainly aren't cheap, but adding 10' to 15' to a purchased net is way cheaper than underestimating your needs, and needing a bigger net 6 months later. Again, it's a buy once not twice decision.
There are several great net companies out there, and they will help you purchase the correctly sized net with just a phone call. Know what you want and need, and they'll help you all they can. Most larger nets are custom made, so it makes sense that the net makers, or their venders, want you to be happy the first time.
There are some very experienced seiners on the forum, so maybe they'll post their net criteria. The above was just what I wanted.
So, a more detailed spring update is coming soon, but here's the latest permanent addition to the brood/growout pond.
It occurred to us that we spent a good deal of time and effort on this small pond, so a dock that allowed us to manage cages, and ease the transfer of fish would be warranted.
Tony, notice anything missing? Yep, no feeder. The TH feeder was moved to the big puddle, and all feedings will be done by hand where consumption and waste can be monitored. If the fish are eating, I feed them. If they're not, I don't waste food.
esshup and I knocked this one out pretty quickly by using Tommy Dock hardware (at my request), and it was almost lego-like construction wise. The final size was 8X20'.
Al, I think I might be headed in the same direction, someday with growout pond. Thanks for your story here. I have put a star by your name today in the classroom.
Feeders are great, and I know they have a place on a great many ponds, and certainly in a great many circumstances. But I still believe that the versatility offered by hand feeding offers a certain, interactive benefit that no feeder can match.
+1 I will always feed by hand, just as a supplement, so I can enjoy watching the fish feed and not throw a bunch of food when they are not feeding. I know this is not an option for the folks that do not live next to their ponds so auto feeders are the way to go.
Tracy, if you decide to build a brood pond, get with me, TJ, highflyer, or Snrub. Lot's of ideas that would really ease the movement and maintenance on a brood pond.
I did keep a feeder on this pond for 2 years, and may still add another one at some point. But, small ponds like these can really kludge up if too much food gets wasted. In my particular case, I lightly dye this pond to cut down clarity and help control algae, and my fish won't eat for a couple of day while they adjust. Even 2 or 3 days of uneaten food is not a good thing on a pond this size.
Al, I have the perfect spot for a grow out pond. One that is just above and to the right of the LMB pond. I would say it will be a smaller pond than what yours looks like from the pictures. I think I can build this one to where I could open a valve and it would drain over into the big pond, making it easy to move the forage fish to the big pond. I will be bringing in a track hoe for some work on the place when it dry's out and I might just do it then. And thanks for your offering you help. I am also thinking. offering your friends help, they might just say to you, "You did what"?? lol
I haven't updated the status of our brood/growout pond in a while, and I'll post a more complete picture of what we did soon.
In short, 2015 was the year we hammered this 1/4 acre pond pretty heavily. It's continued to produce large numbers of both forage and breeder sized CNBG, winter Rainbow Trout for recreational fun, grown out HSB to sizes survivable in the big puddle, and lastly, Lone Star Legacy Bass that were also grown out to survivable sizes this last fall.
Here's a pic of one of the Legacy Bass we stocked on 07/09/2015. I'm guessing around 2 oz, and most in the 6-7" range.
These pics are what they look like 6 months after we stocked them. As per Todd Overton's recommendation, a bolus of late season 2-3" tilapia were added on 09/22/2015. These fish were fin clipped, and added to the big puddle on 01/14/2016.
Al, those Bass sure look healthy. Like football shaped fatties. Did you keep a couple of them in the growout pond or did you add them all to the big pond?
Tracy, we'll put all the Legacy's in the big puddle. I'll probably head a different direction with the brood pond this year, so I'll drain and kill the pond in a few weeks. I need to try to make sure it's fish free before I continue.
Snrub, glad it helped. I was negligent in updates last year, but the big puddle's coontail infestation took priority over everything else. Guys like you will push these ponds even further, and that makes me happy. Me, I choose to see how far I can push the pond owner 101 stuff. No voodoo here, just my attempt to get better and better at the basics. My fish will tell me what they need, it's my job to interpret that info correctly.
Scott, 2 things I noticed. One, the total number of forage we seined out on the initial pull was probably only around 100 pounds. That was a good deal less than normal.
And two, almost the entire 2-5" size class of all forage was nonexistent. Tons of fry up to 2-2.5", and plenty of larger CNBG that were over 5". These LMB sure showed me their preferred food size. If they stayed in this particlar pond another month or so, I think the calories expended to feed would start affecting the results.
I also seined up some dead tilapia, and all were over 5". Nothing smaller was netted, but I'm sure turtles got a few.
So you are saying that the forage fish that are 20% to 33% of the LMB length are almost completely missing from the pond?
Where have we seen "LMB prefer to eat forage between 1/4 and 1/3 their body length" before?
How many LMB were stocked in the pond?
What fish were in the pond for forage? Did they prefer to eat any species over the other?
Since you found only a few 5" Tilapia dead on the bottom, I will have to assume that most were eaten while alive, or on their way out. How many were stocked?
Scott, that's a lot of questions, and you know my shows are on.
We stocked 25 total. We had RBT and HSB in the pond before we stocked these, and I allowed the pond a rest for a month or two before we put these in. I wanted at least one more CNBG spawn before I stocked them. I added 20 pounds of Rosey Reds at the same time I stocked the LMB. The RR's were cool little fish, and I enjoyed watching them for the 3 days they were here. They got hammered PDQ. In October I added 50 pounds of late season 2-3" tilapia.
If I had to guess the LMB's dining preferences, I'd say the more fusiform tilapia and GSF tie for first, with CNBG 3rd. But, with all the floods, GSF infestations, and various alpha predators in this pond, not once did the surviving CNBG not repopulate the pond on their own. No matter what scenario I come up with for me, BG seem to be the only constant when talking about sustainable LMB forage.
We pulled 4 LMB this week, and had 4 more jump the net. We'll re-seine next week, and get the rest.
All 4 LMB were between 13 and 14", and 1.5 to 1.75 pounds.
We decided to pass on growing out predators in the brood pond this spring, and just raise tilapia for eventual transfer to the big puddle. We had drained, killed the brood pond with hydrated lime, let rain fill the pond back up, then added our tilapia.
We wound up getting Black/Gold Mixed Mozies, a new Mozambique Tilapia selection from Overton's Fisheries. Todd picked us out some larger early season tilapia and IIRC, was at a 1/7 male to female ratio.
Depending on what we want to do this fall, stocking tilapia in a clean pond this spring gives us 2 eventual options. One, we can let the pond rest, and the un-seined tilapia will die this next winter, and leave us with a clean pond to start over with next spring. Or two, we can go ahead and restock predators, and let the tilapia be the forage for them until the weather gets cold. When we get a feel for how the big puddle's doing this summer, we'll know how to proceed for the fall and winter. Does it need every bit of possible forage, or can it handle more predators of some type? We'll let the existing fish population answer that question for us.
Also, after 3 years of moving, re-stacking, increasing, or just generally fighting windmills, I've observed that a rock barrier of any size or type won't keep fish from moving from one attached pond to another. So, the rocks are out, and I'm installing a proper screened drain pipe and dam this week. Pics to follow on that.
...So, fish count was 25, they added roughly a pound and a half in weight, so they consumed a minimum of around 345 pounds of forage fish.....
Correct. The jumper Legacy's were over 2#. Unlimited forage in the brood pond basically gave us a few 2 yo sized LMB the first year. If you're really wanting to get fish in and out of a brood/growout pond as quickly as possible, correctly sized forage in adequate numbers can't be stressed enough.
Those Tilapia look great. Tell Todd that for me next time you see him.
Now, the only fly in the ointment is the big pond getting high enough to overflow into the brood pond. I know, I know, keep my mouth shut. But you still haven't found that voodoo doll.........
I will. He's bringing the tilapia for the big puddle in a few weeks.
Oh, I've prepared as best I can for the flood curse you left us on Feb 20th, 2015. Not like I remember the exact date all this weather we had started. Just sayin'.
I'll fill in the overflow valley even with the top of the brood pond dam. That should be about 4' higher than now, and should prevent that movement. The only way water could get back in the pond would be to completely submerge the pond. I have a 100' roll of construction erosion fencing and posts set aside. If big weather's coming, I could always screen the entire south side of the pond, and that should at least keep LMB from moving back into the brood pond.
I got another rat trap pipe guard, and will wrap it in window screen on the inlet side when needed. Unless the water's as high as it is now, I'll just leave the screen off. I'm also trying some rubber anti-seep collars from Agri Drain. They're very easy to install, and cheap for the time saved.
Basically, 2 ponds that connect and are at the same full pool water level, have been tough to deal with.
Al, Thank you for your posting here. I think the Legacy's looked Great. So, can you tell me how you determine the number or pounds of Tp to be added to the big pond this spring. And what about the B/G Tp. What the difference's are between those and the other Mosb Tp if any. If the ratio was 1/7, I am guessing hand picked? I can ask Todd @ Overtons, he has "Always" been there to assist, but he stays pretty busy and I hate to ask him things that I can get from good people like you. I have noticed you do not tag your fish, so do you fin clip the new Legacy's when added to your pond? If you do, where and how do you fin clip them?
Thanks PS, I attempted to build my first grow out pond this week but it was too muddy in one spot, I almost stuck the excavator and the other spot had no clay. Guess I will wait till summer when it dry's out. Sucks
Todd did hand pick the TP for me, and as a rule, I email him before hand if I want something other than the norm.
I clipped the left pelvic fins on the Legacy's before restocking them to the big puddle. I just wanted to able to verify the initial stockers with this batch, and I just use orange Fiskar shears for fin clipping. Wally World should have them in the sewing department. If you've got a pair, fluoro scissors would probably work well too.
So I've let this thread slide, but I'm almost done with a 2016 wrap up. It's quite the tale.
So I invested in an old transport tank, and it's some of the best pond related money I've ever spent. Making the trip to Overtons takes about 3 hours for us, but transporting our fish in bags was a pain sometimes. We never lost any fish, but the twin tanks makes it a lot easier. We picked up our trout on a 60 degree day, and they all made the trip great. The proper amount of O2, a palm full of salt, and clove oil if needed, sure makes fish happy.
We're growing out trout for winter LMB forage, and the weather has made it rough. Although this is the second time we've had winter trout, I'm still new at this. Because of that, I didn't feed these trout when the water was 60 degrees or above at daylight, because the potential for this pond to hit the upper 60's could happen at any time. I didn't want to stress these fish any more than I had to. So, I've probably lost 3 weeks of growth but all the trout are alive, and eating well.
Observation and nothing more, but going from an 1/8" pellet to a 3/16" pellet added a half pound to the daily feedings. With fewer pellets per pound, the trout's feeding time was reduced also.
One other interesting thing, is that these trout will start getting really active when they hear the Mule coming. But, they won't move to food like BG. I literally have to throw food right above their heads, or they won't eat it until almost all the other food is gone.
A few of my babies. They still have no clue how short their life expectancy is. Oh, quick tip. Weigh your net wet, and mark that weight on the handle. If you're wanting to weigh multiple smaller fish at once, it sure makes it easy to just weigh them in a wet net, and then deduct the net weight. The hanger type fish scales like Rapala, or Boga work well. You can move and weigh fish as fast as you can get them in the net.
These trout are fed at dusk and dawn based on water temp.
SB, they're a lower sized grade, so 5" to maybe 10". My goal is to get as many as I can to 12" by the first weekend of March. Not sure it's doable because of the weather, but we'll know more once we drag a net.
Al, I read the thread again from start to finish and I Thank you for the posting with pic's. I spoke with my dirt contractor neighbor last week and discussed another pond. Maybe two, one forage and one 1/2 acre. He said he could do it after things dry out. I tried last spring to build it myself and I started on the project but I almost buried the excavator in the digging process and so I will let him build it for me. The excavator was a rental and I could see me calling the heavy equipment co and requesting more equipment along with an operator just to get me out of the hole I had dug. LOL, But I did get a sediment pond dug and am now raising fhm's and bull frogs (lots of bull frogs). I counted 14 in the pond before the last cold spell. I did not plan on growing out frogs. They seem to like the fhm's and there are no lmb in there to eat them. They seem to be smart when it comes to food and safety. So, now the questions, what would be the best size pond for forage fish, including the seining part? Suggestions? And I like the trout deal where you can grow out some larger trout, I may need that starting next year. So maybe cnbg and trout forage out of one forage pond, do you see any problem with that, thinking cnbg from April till Dec and then trout from Dec to April 1st? How do you feel about that plan?
Nice picture showing regular RBT and the Golden color morph of the RBT. You can see the goldens swimming around a lot easier. I like the transport tank!
So, now the questions, what would be the best size pond for forage fish, including the seining part? Suggestions? And I like the trout deal where you can grow out some larger trout, I may need that starting next year. So maybe cnbg and trout forage out of one forage pond, do you see any problem with that, thinking cnbg from April till Dec and then trout from Dec to April 1st? How do you feel about that plan?
Tracy, I'll answer your questions soon. Already working on some things I've learned over the last 5+ years with this pond.
The trout can come in after the CNBG, but I'm not sure they will flourish if numbers of more aggressive fish are left in the pond with them. Last time we had winter trout, they stayed in one small corner of the pond, and rarely fed with the CNBG or HSB. These trout are smaller, but it's pretty cool to watch them fly out of the water when going after pellets when they are the dominate fish in the pond.
Thanks Scott. The tank is primed, but I can't decide whether to paint it brown and white like a mini Blue Bell truck, or white with orange stripes like a 1969 Camaro. Obviously I've run out of things to fret over.
Bill, the tank is one of Todd's old transport tanks. I really liked the size of this tank because at 50 gallons of water per tank, I can easily carry fish in my 1/2 ton pickup. It is also narrow enough to fit in my Mule when moving to the pond. I'm thinking the tank originally came from Boatcycle in Henderson TX, but I'm not sure. Similar tanks priced new are around $1,200.
To me, the biggest advantage is the O2 system. That part is easily repeatable with ibc totes, or polyethylene tubs. I've used both, and they work well.
We've probably moved tens of thousands of fish over the last 5 years, and killed thousands of smaller fish early on too. The weak link has always been the transition from the hatchery pond to the big pond, so that is the area I focused on. The simple answer was to keep the fish wet. As long as they were in water, either seined up in the corner of the pond, or in the tanks, they were fine. Also, moving fish from the hatchery pond to the tank, or from the tank to the big pond was done in 5 gallon buckets with water, not nets. Since going to the buckets, the number of morts during movement has decreased to an easily countable number, and without exception, the only fish that died were less than 2" long.
I've posted this picture before, but this O2 rig has worked very well, and could easily handle a larger Pentair O2 diffuser if needed. I think I have less than $200 in this rig.
Thanks Scott. The tank is primed, but I can't decide whether to paint it brown and white like a mini Blue Bell truck, or white with orange stripes like a 1969 Camaro. Obviously I've run out of things to fret over.
White and orange. Keep it cooler in the sun. Plus that's Chevy colors.
I've decided to go ahead and pull the RBT weekend after next. I don't think we'll get the increase in size we were looking for, but we also weren't expecting multiple days at near 80 degrees in February. Having little experience with RBT, I decided to pull them early, instead of waiting for them to get stressed by the gradually rising water temps. Much better a week or two early, than one day too late.
With the poundage of RBT I have, and the larger size of my main pond, I just don't see any significant weight gains for the LMB here this year. Obviously the smaller size is an issue, but so is having to stock them all within just a few days. My original goal was to grow the smaller RBT to a size that would specifically benefit my larger LMB, but the weather changed that. All these trout will obviously get eaten, but the population of LMB that will be eating them is much larger than I would have hoped.
Now where I do see a huge benefit for me personally is in the recreational aspects of these RBT. Do to almost weekly culling and electroshocking removal of LMB, our LMB catch rates have dropped dramatically here in the last several years, and my boss isn't real happy about that. She understands why we do what we do, but when she fishes, she wants to catch fish. I think a 12" golden RBT on an octopus circle hook free swimming in the big pond will potentially give her all she can handle. If she's happy, I'm happy. I'll cage a few and keep them for her, and leave one or two in the cage to see at what water temp the RBT start getting stressed at. We have no aeration here, so my WAG is that the critical temp will be lower than water that is oxygenated. I'd be curious what those of you with RBT, and longer growing seasons have experienced.
I'm liking your and Scott's suggestions, so white and orange it is.
My biggest concern with with the Blue Bell colors was being pulling over by the highway patrol thinking there's ice cream on board. Not sure they'd be happy seeing fish, and not cookies and cream ice cream in the back of my truck.
Thanks for the trout info, it will assist in my plans next year. I would like to say it was my pleasure to have met your wife @ Brian's place this past fall. She must be a keeper because you guys have been together a long time and that is good. Now for me and my experience, if you can keep a woman happy, you are a better man than me
Thanks Tracy. I've been reminding her for over 30 years that she's a temp, but I'm not sure she believes me. I will say this about her though, she's creeping up on the big 60, and she can still pull her end of a seine with the best of them.
Dropping the brood pond 3' today to get ready for Sunday's seine. This last week's weather has made the draining problematic since I didn't want to drop the pond with warm water. Increased crowding, warm water, and potential decreased DO due to the RBT crowding, all made my decision easy though. I was waiting on this cold snap to lower the water temp, and it hit perfectly. Yesterday at 04:30, the outdoor air temp was 68 degrees. This morning, it bottomed out at 31 degrees. I think that's low enough to hold the colder water until Sunday, and all should go well.
I've also been taking almost daily water temps at the surface, 3', 5', and 12' down. What I found was that once I hit 3', the water temp remained the same all the way to the bottom of the pond (12'). I also found that wind affects the surface temp greatly. Basically, the stronger the wind, the quicker the air temp drops or raises the pond's surface temp. Knowing that gives me options.
Since I already have the 3" water pump set up to drain the pond, I wanted to figure out a quick and easy way to take advantage of the warmer or lower subsurface water temp depending on whether I needed a slightly longer season for cold sensitive fish like tilapia, or cold weather fish like the RBT. I think I figured out a way to do this, and aerate the pond also. It only took a few pvc elbows I didn't already have, pvc I had laying around, and some quiet time to think. Whether it has merit or not, is something I won't know until I try it. I have to admit Cray's post about his LMB dying started all this. I sure hated it happened to him, but it made me realize I had no contingency plan if this same thing happened to the RBT. I hope I have one now.
I'll post some pics once it's set up, so when I do, please kick it around all you want. Won't hurt my feelings one iota, and I built it all with male/female fittings at the end of the pvc pipes, so changes only require altering or replacing the actual end pieces.
Al, what were the water temps at the depths mentioned in the big pond and the brood pond? And are you talking air in the brood pond, I thought I remembered you not having aeriation in the big pond? With u using pvc for air in the brood pond, are u talking about a fountain made from the pvc? And are u adding the trout now to the big pond to feed the lmb? What do u expect to see when u add the rbt to the big pond? Inquiring minds want to know
Tracy, yesterday morning the brood pond was 59 degrees on the surface, then 54 degrees on the rest. The big pond is very different. It's probably a 1,000' or more from the dam to the top end of the pond, and those surface temps fluctuate as much as 4 degrees. When there's no wind affecting it, the shallowest water at the top of the pond is usually warmer. If you're asking for the reason I think you are, then I'm no help on the LMB spawn. The big pond has been fluctuating from between the upper 50's, to the low 60's for weeks now, and I've seen several beds that were stopped, and had neither LMB or CNBG on them. I've seen no new beds at all, but I sure wouldn't bet against that changing week after next, if it hasn't all ready.
Yes, air is for the brood pond. I see no scenario where I'll ever add it to the big pond because of $$$$. It is kind of like a fountain without the throw, but the addition of air at the pump, and the ability to pull water at any defined level gives me options. It'll make sense once you see it. I'll post my initial thoughts, whether it works or not.
The only real goal I had in 2016 and then this early spring, was to see how many months I could grow forage with no legacy fish left in the pond. The tilapia died when it got cold, and now the trout will die when the water warms up. That means no draining, seining, and killing out the pond before this year's project. Best I can tell, I'll get 9-10 months of forage growth, with no residual fish.
As far as my goals specifically with the RBT, they're purely informational and recreational. I'm by the brood pond 3-4 times a day, and I enjoy having the more immediate results that a smaller pond provides. Will these trout add weight to the LMB? Sure they will, but let me throw a few numbers out. Just for round numbers, let's assume I have 50 LMB per acre, and 25 of those are capable of eating an 8"-10" RBT. On my 11 acre pond, that means I would be feeding 300 LMB. At 10 pounds of forage for a 1 pound weight gain, I would need 3,000 pounds of RBT to make a difference. Add to that the short period that they may even live in this pond's warmer water, and I think the benefits would lessen greatly. It's like the difference in eating a huge steak, and needing to let your belt out, and eating 4,000 calories a day for extended periods. One adds long term weight, and one is temporary. I'm ok with that.
Tracy, the plan right now is to dump 5 gallon buckets of RBT for several days, and then stock the rest in one drop. When I do that, my hope is that carnage ensues. The only obvious issues that readily come to mind might be the rising water temp, which further shortens the RBT survivability, or if the female LMB are on the beds when the RBT are put in. If they're on the beds, then they'll most likely miss their trout treats.
Thank you for your answers. sorry if I asked too many questions. You have been growing fish a lot longer than I have and I thank you for passing on your experience. And yes it would be very expensive to feed steak (trout) to your lmb every day. Todd asked me if I wanted some trout this past fall and I passed. My thinking was to hold off till next year when the lmb might need the extra calories. There may come a point where forage may be reduced and the trout could help, if I could afford to add them for more than a snack. And as far as the lmb spawn, I think I may be looking at late March. Thanks again
So as I'm apt to do, I overthink the simple things. I hooked all the hoses up, and it was a disaster because of the back pressure the flexible outlet hose caused. Any kink, and water went everywhere. Luckily I was alone, so no one saw it. Putting the most air possible at the pump outlet was my main goal, so I removed all the hose and and restarted this at the pump. I think that's all I'll need, and I'm not sure how I could add any more air than this to the water. I did float the inlet so it wouldn't pull silt up like it tends to do when it's laying on the bottom of the pond.
The riser is on the wye because of the small amount of back pressure in the outlet pipe. With my 3" pump, the water churned and rose 16" up the riser, so I left 10 more inches of head space, and all seems well. I hope I never need this, but if I do, it'll jut take a couple of minutes to set up.
I like it, I did not realize one could have an air suction vent that size in a 3" discharge. looks to be adding quite a bit of air. Would have been nice to see the water discharge with and without the air input. Could be done by placing your hand over the air intake and then without the hand. But yes I think that will get you out of a bind, if needed. Thanks for the pics
Tracy, I did hold my hand over the vent stack, and there less suction than I had hoped for. Highflyer called last night with some recommendations, so I'll change some things up and repost the changes. My head spins when he fires his big brain up, but it was something about velocity, and pipe diameter while eating pie. I might have been distracted when he said that though.
He's helping me run some carrying capacity tests later this spring, and he's bringing his DO meter with him. We should get some solid numbers then.
I've started my 2018 long term CNBG project, so I wanted to finish up 2017 first. As per usual, we had major rains in late spring, and the brood pond blew out again. Since fish moved both in and out, I decided to add 30# of FHM's, and 20 LSL LMB fingerlings. I seined the pond around the end of November and gave all the BG/CNBG to a cousin with 3 small ponds. The LMB were tagged and released into my big pond.
The LMB did not get the growth that I had the last time I stocked them, but these fish were there to just clean up fry and fingerlings of mostly unknown origin. When the pond was dedicated to the LMB, and stocked accordingly with FHM and gape friendly tilapia, the growth was very impressive. The LMB in late 2015 grew to over 2# in 180 days. Few of 2017's crop were over 14oz, but I expected that. At the end, they were scavenging at best.
When all the fish were pulled in late November, it was time to drain and treat the pond with hydrated lime and get ready for 2018. Unfortunately, I fired my seining partner, so I had the pleasure of doing the seining of this pond by myself, which was a first for me. Surprisingly, there were very fish that I missed. The seining part went no differently, but the trudging up and down the silty banks to slowly pull the net only 4’ per side was a PITA. I burnt a few calories that day. Oh, my seining partner didn’t divorce me after I fired her.
I've had this little pond going for 7 years now, and I decided to return to it's roots, and that would be growing out new CNBG genetics to add my big pond. I'll readily admit that when this all started, I couldn't tell the difference in a 3" greenie, and a CNBG. A lot has changed since then. One of the things I've learned over the years, is that certain projects take different amounts of effort. Refreshing genetics is one of those projects. Because of that, the pond had to be void of any living thing prior to restocking.
Here's how I handle hydrated lime when things get serious.
This is the pond before and after spreading hydrated lime. The pond was drained until the pump started pulling a vacuum. Less water means less hydrated lime.
Don't forget to treat any potential areas that may hold both water and fish. The fish in this picture was 30' above the pond in a small rut. It had been 2 weeks since any rain, and the BG was still kicking when I found it.
Pipe inlets and watershed often have washouts and can hold fish, so be sure and treat those also.
Never ever forget to treat footprints. You'd surprised how many fish they can hold.
I've had this little pond going for 7 years now, and I decided to return to it's roots, and that would be growing out new CNBG genetics to add my big pond. I'll readily admit that when this all started, I couldn't tell the difference in a 3" greenie, and a CNBG. A lot has changed since then. One of the things I've learned over the years, is that certain projects take different amounts of effort. Refreshing genetics is one of those projects. Because of that, the pond had to be void of any living thing prior to restocking.
Here's how I handle hydrated lime when things get serious.
This is the pond before and after spreading hydrated lime. The pond was drained until the pump started pulling a vacuum. Less water means less hydrated lime.
Don't forget to treat any potential areas that may hold both water and fish. The fish in this picture was 30' above the pond in a small rut. It had been 2 weeks since any rain, and the BG was still kicking when I found it.
Pipe inlets and watershed often have washouts and can hold fish, so be sure and treat those also.
Never ever forget to treat footprints. You'd surprised how many fish they can hold.
Great advice! Those pesky little bluegills can hang around in footprint rather easily. Some of us have learned that from experience!
The first thing I would like to do, is say thanks to all those that stopped by for a visit on my little hatchery pond journey. This thread has been rolling along for almost 7 years and 250,000 views, and I really thought this thread would run its course by now. But luckily, there’s just too much to learn, and too many new things to try. It’s been quite the ride.
So, this year's hatchery pond project is back to where I started almost 7 years ago, and that would be CNBG. I had never anticipated how much I would enjoy seeing my big pond transform since the addition of my first batch of OTS CNBG 5 years ago. The big pond is going on 20 years old, and other than one stocking from my original source of CNBG, none had been added. The original Florida strain of CNBG were brutes, but were almost solid black, and less than colorful to say the least.
This year is about trying to get a higher percentage of males that carry a non-dominant(my words, not Todd's) red tailed OTS CNBG trait and make it more common. I already have CNBG displaying this trait in the big pond, but not in the numbers I want. I might also add the red tails primarily show up around the spawns, but the transparency of the tail makes photos difficult. The best examples of the red tail is best seen on a 2007 pic from 13-3-2007 at Overton Fisheries CNBG page.
The thing I like about this particular project is the ease in determining if this all works. Most forum talk revolves around size as the main reason for adding new genetics, but increased vigor and color and body shape options are what I think of when adding new genetics. Success or failure should be determined by simple observation, and there should be no mystery if this works. The only gotcha is that these CNBG will need to be seined during, or right before they spawn this Sept-Oct. The red colors are already there, but it'll be up to me to determine which male CNBG get to stay in the hatchery pond as spawners, and which ones hit the big pond.
After growing out CNBG several times, LSL LMB twice, RBT twice, and HSB, I’m convinced that FHM start predator fingerlings off with a bang, and this year’s project is no different. What I don’t want is for these CNBG to run straight to the feeders, so them being grown out with both fish food and live forage makes sense to me. When they’re released, I want them feeding on anything that fits their gape, and not just waiting around for a handout from my feeders.
I’m not sure how the pics will display, so here’s what’s below.
The first pic shows a pretty close ratio of the CNBG to FHM I stocked. The FHM have already had several spawns, and the shoreline cover is loaded with a consistent source of gape friendly FHM fry. I expect the CNBG to be big enough to feed on the adult FHM this fall or winter.
The second and third pic show the difference in my legacy CNBG, and the OTS CNBG I have now. This is where I want to continue go genetics wise.
The video is me stocking them. It sure is nice not to wash salt out of the bed of my truck anymore.
Al, if you don't mind me saying so, those are some beautiful bluegill. That lower one looks like a male that is beginning to grow his opercular flap. Do you recall it's length?
Al, That is remarkable. In the waters I fish the BG begin sexual maturity between 5" and 8" depending on the BOW. You have the opportunity for some real monsters ... as if 10,5" isn't monster enough .
I caught my personal best Longear this morning. It had one of those helmet heads but was only 7.5" long. A beautiful fish with vibrant color. I have a picture but don't know how to post.
Thanks to John for help :
This may be a BG X LES hybrid? The image doesn't indicate any white trim on the margins of the opercle flap. ??? Just not sure if it was pure LES. There are a lot of images online that demonstrate regional variation and perhaps hybridization.
To post a picture, click on "file manager" at the bottom of the posting window. Click on "choose file", then choose a .jpg or .png file on your computer or tablet, then click "add file", then click "done", then click "submit" to post your message with picture.
I caught it in a pond (<1 acre) at a public park near my home. My fishing buddy this morning was my daughter Catie. I released it hoping I might catch it again someday.
I needed a better way to hold fish while sorting or seining, so I went with a holding box instead of a cage. Holding boxes are used more for hatcheries than ponds, but I've had several and really like them if you're only wanting to hold fish for a few hours, or a few days.
The only real difference in a fish cage and a holding box are the sides and bottom, which are free floating on the holding box(free sinking actually), and are nonrigid. This makes them extremely easy to transport and deploy once in the water.
This holding box is 5X5X5, and I used 2" pvc for this one. I added a double top to it, and the 1' of free board should help keep most jumpers in the box. Tilapia and grass carp are the exceptions. I also added the double top to increase the instability of the holding box. GBH shouldn't be able to stand on the box and eat the contents.
I got the net custom made from Miller Nets, and if you take into account all the time zip tying or lashing of rigid plastic fencing to the pvc on a cage, the bulkiness when moving a cage, and the ease of assembly, the price was right in line with a more conventional cage.
This pic shows the net draped on the pvc frame, and clips holding the net on the top bar. I decided not to permanently mount the net, so that I can take it off and store it inside when not in use. It also allows me to adjust the depth of the net as needed, so this one is good for 1' to 5' deep.
This pic shows the 3/4" aluminum bars that once in the water, will keep the bottom of the net spread, and add very little weight at the same time. I connected the bars to each other with 3/4" refrigeration tubing.
Not any updates because this year has actually gone quite well. A lot of the CNBG are right at that 8" length I need for stocking the big pond, and we've had multiple verified spawns. The red tailed males I'm wanting have started showing their colors more, and the tails and fin tipping are the only criteria for staying in the hatchery pond. We had planned to seine the pond on Nov. 15th, the first quarter moon phase, but the water was already in the 40's, and I didn't want to stress the CNBG.
Bottom line, these get put back in to keep breeding. These are hand fed to my LMB.
I spoke a smidge too soon. A week later, and the hatchery pond has been blown out twice do to rain. A 4" rain did it last week, and another 2" rain today. The timing probably couldn't have been better though. Whatever possibly got in the pond won't start spawning until spring, so no issues with mixed spawns. I do have a 1/4" screen on the outlet pipe, and I doubt anything that small is still swimming in January. I did some dirt work and widened the emergency spillway, and even with heavy rains, the water depth is rarely over an inch deep.
I may have interlopers, but I doubt I lost many of the CNBG.
We had a fish kill, and as best I can tell, we lost pretty much all our CNBG. We seined the pond and got less than 50 survivable fish.
At this point I don't really see any reason to have any more extended fish projects until I can get a change or two done to the pond itself. The watershed for this pond is completely on our neighbor's property, so there's little I can do about that.
Long story short, we got whacked by 30 black angus cows and mother nature. Heavy rain events throughout this spring carried massive amounts of silt into this pond from our neighbor's newly pastured cows, and the fish were repeatedly stressed over this spring. The cows are gone now, so hopefully the turf will heal. The dead fish had various amounts of fungus on them, and even the live ones with small amounts of fungus that were caged in the big pond with better water died within a week.
QA, the nutrients sure didn't help. I'm still steaming a bit over this, but it would have been nice if the cows had been fed some hay, and not crawled halfway through our fence to get to the winter rye on our side. Current water numbers and morning/evening DO numbers were also were well within a normal range.
The cows were removed because the property was sold to people in Dallas, and I doubt they'll get in the cow business. The 40# of Japanese millet I bucket stocked my neighbors lower pasture with probably wont hurt either.
Those things happen in pond mgt. I have killed 1000 3-5 inch CNBG within a few hours of having put them behind a net. Weren't even paid for and they became fertilizer.
Eric, I agree. I've sure killed a few myself, and learned a lot from it.
The big hit for me was that the last 12 months was devoted to 1 particular CNBG. He was to have a vivid red tail, and a more northern body shape. I needed multiple 8-9" males to evaluate, and hope their body shape was mature enough to make a proper selection. That male would be pulled, put all the other CNBG in the big pond, and then the pond would be drained and killed out. That one male would then be bred with some of my largest females. Hopefully, those fish would have a higher percentage of red tails. I was expecting this to be a 3-4 year project, and I thought all was setup for the long haul, but obviously I was wrong.
I lost a year I can't get back, but I learned from this and will move on.
Man, I'm sorry to hear that. Had a fungus fish kill on my large CNBG in fall 2017 after a cold snap caught them in the shallows spawning. Double stress from spawning and rapid temp change was too much.
You could look at floating islands as a way of absorbing excess fertility. That's what they are designed for, and seem to work well.
Will, that sucks! After reading about your fish kill and from what I understand it sounds like the watershed for this pond may continue to be high in nutrients for any near future fish growing. So, what can be grown in this pond that may benefit your big pond? How about growing out some of those freshwater shrimp, the shrimp that grow big I'm thinking they might do real well in a high nutrient water environment from what I have read. And that would be cool if you went that route and kept us in your loop. If you bought them in the really small size, cost might be minimal and you have a great tank to transport them. Al, it's easy for me to make suggestion to others, it does not cost me any money or effort lol.
anthropic & Tracy, I'm sure there were heavy nutrients too, but the silt got them. It hit on 3 different occasions over a month, and it was the color and clarity of creamed coffee. Visibility was almost nonexistent. If it just been an issue with the hatchery pond, I would have just pumped in water from the big pond and flushed it. Unfortunately, I had approximately 2 acres of the same mess at the top of it also. There was no option for water changes.
The hatchery pond has water primrose, smartweed, and rush completely covering the banks. It's still there for 2 reasons. One, it controls nutrient levels to the point that there is zero algae present. And two, it's cover for fry in the spring to fall months. They'll get whacked even in a single species pond, and they require protection just like any pond. Last year I treated the plants with Sonar in late September/early October to eliminate the plants, and throw the sheep to the wolves before I seined the pond. Their life expectancy in the big pond would be about 5 minutes, so having them eaten in the hatchery just targeted calories to the CNBG I was focused on.
At this point I'm just bucket stocking XL CNBG back into the hatchery pond to get it restarted while I wait for my water test results to come back from A&M. No more fish projects for a while, just forage. I feel comfortable doing this because the silt has stopped, and the few remaining CNBG are feeding daily again.
The mine shaft canaries that were my male CNBG adapted well, and last week I stocked 10 large female CNBG so they'd have dance partners. Big thanks to Scott (esshup) for catching most of them while he was here a couple of weeks ago. What's surprised me is the number of <3" CNBG that are coming up to eat and peck at 2.2mm pellets and fish food dust. I'm still not sure if they spawned, or just survived the crash, but the lower numbers make me think they were survivors.
It's nice to be feeding these babies again, and I'm anxious to see what happens after the next full moon.
Tuesday looks like the day we'll seine the pond. We're doing a "light" seine just to lower the biomass. Looks like we got 3 distinct sizes of CNBG this summer, so ultimately, although we lost the pond last spring, it's recovered well.
Below is a pic of my seining needs rev.4. Obviously the net. I lay it out and make sure there aren't any tears. 2 dip nets. One for pulling batches from the seine cradle, and the smaller square one for getting the transported fish out of the ice chest. We don't need the transport tank because we're just running a couple of loads of CNBG across the road to one of our neighbors. Basically, we're bartering seining help for fish. Everybody wins. The waders aren't really needed when the water is warmer, but they sure are nice this time of year. The buckets are for moving fish up the bank, and all 3 have vent holes on the lids. Nothing worse than slipping and dumping a load of fish, so the screw on lids can eliminate that.
I've posted the pics before, but the ice chest carries everything I need to move small batches of fish. O2 bottle with a preset flow meter, Pentair O2 disfuser, ruler, salt, clove oil, and a very bright pink bucket for getting water to fill the ice chest. Nobody steals or borrows a pink bucket.
The saw horses are what we've started using to make a cradle once the net is pulled to the bank. The legs are cut so it sits pretty level in the water, and we drape the top and bottom of the net over the saw horse, making a cradle that really, really makes it easy to sort fish in the pond. I'll post a pic of that once it's set up.
Al, were you able to determine spawning times? Like full moon each month and seeing them all come to the beds at a certain time(full moons) or was it more like a rolling spawn where there were bg on the beds all the time? Like different sizes spawn at different times? I have never seen my bg build nest and spawn at my pond. Most likely due to fertile green water. If they spawned today the water is so clear I could see them spawning to 5 or 6' depths. I was curious if you new how many spawns you had since the last of June? Any thought of doing RES only one time?
Didn’t get a chance to look at the ponds. Spent all my time messing with the well. Pump froze and I expect burnt up the motor. Need either a visit from well service people or a new pump. $$$$$$$
Electric outage caused the problem with a space heater that didn’t auto restart
Tracy, in a small hatchery pond like mine, it's easy to tell when the CNBG spawn. Since I hand feed, when the breeders are absent, they're on the beds. Females usually start eating again before the males.
I never thought about RES, but there may be some northern visitors in the pond next spring. At least that's the current plan.
I haven't given any effort to raising fish since the fish kill in 2019. 2 issues kept me from getting back in the saddle, and that was nutrient loads from a neighbor's pasture, and massive flushes during storms. Both problems were fixed with the 20" culvert moved out of this pond, and changing my pasture contours to eliminate virtually all runoff of any kind. This pond had accumulated near 3' of muck over the years from oaks and silt from pasture runoff.
Heading to Buffalo in a couple of weeks to pick up 1K of CNBG fingerlings. Hopefully gypsum will have the water cleared up by then.
The pond got finished Monday night at 7:30 pm.
7:30 Tuesday morning after 2.5" of rain Monday night.
I'm actually excited to be back in the game. I'll have the pond at full pool tomorrow, then start getting the water ready to go.
Since we're talking water...
Big pond is adjacent to the hatchery pond, so refills are easy to do. Water is bathtub clear right now.
If moving water, always put a tarp under the hose outlet. It keeps turbidity in check, and dilutes the muddy water from the rain last night. Another 2', and I'll float the outlet. Also, if moving water from an older pond, use a Pentair mesh filter over the outlet to prevent weeds from entering the receiving pond.
It's been 3 weeks since the construction was finished, and I spent the first 2 weeks getting the water ready for stocking. That meant testing nitrate/nitrogen, alkalinity, hardness, and PH levels. 400# of gypsum was added, and it not only helped clear the water, it added the hardness I needed for the CNBG. 50# of pool salt was also added. Rainwater runoff from the pasture was right at 6, so 400# of ag lime was added. The PH didn't come up to the numbers I wanted, so I thought it was smart to add hydrated lime to speed things up. It did, but the ph hit 9 PDQ. I let the pond settle overnight, then "carefully" added aluminum sulfate until the numbers came back down to 7.5 a day or two later. The aluminum sulfate also helped clear the water. After letting everything settle, the pond now has a clarity of approximately 12", and has a nice olive color. By having everything I needed on site, the pond had plenty of time to settle before the fish were added.
We picked up 1,000 1-3" CNBG at Overtons last week, tempered their water, and released them in the pond. As is usual, I had decided they were all dead since none were coming to food for 4-5 days. I knew exactly where they should be, but there was no activity. Finally, they started feeding 5-6 days ago, but the numbers were extremely limited. Now, they're feeding in numbers that mean I'll start weighing food to get a feel for their growth, and actual numbers. I started with a tea spoon, then a table spoon, then 2 tablespoons, now weight by grams. I'm currently feeding a 1/8" and 2.2mm mix, so nobody's left out.
One of the best things I did when redoing the pond, was to leave one bank alone, and not regrade it. That was done specifically for the fish, and that meant reeds, emergent water primrose, etc. was left as cover for the CNBG, and that's exactly where they're at. Instead of trying to get the fish to come to food, I'm feeding them where they want to be. Because of that, a specific feeding schedule isn't needed. If I feed them at 7:30 in the morning, or 3 in the afternoon, they're always there and ready to eat.
I may have to. Ewest had posted about netting in a larger BOW, so I might try that also.
All I know is that if I bought a net big enough to handle that pond, I'd have to move to Kansas.
I picked up a 10'x50' Delta 3/16" mesh seine from Memphis pretty cheap when it was on sale as either a factory oops or a net that someone ordered but never paid for. Keep an eye on their website for deals. I think with shipping it was less than $200.00
Thanks Scott, they do have some good deals. Mine's 10X60, and it's still too small. I'm feeding near the dock, so most of the CNBG should be in that area. That'll help a lot.
It seems as though we've had our first spawn. I'm seeing dozens of 1/2 to 3/4" fry swimming in algae at the top end of the pond. I started feeding them fish food dust this morning. A few did come to it, so hopefully they'll train the others.
I always seem to have powder at the bottom of fish food bags. I save it, and use it for freshly spawned fry. It's protein/lipid numbers are 48/18 which is right in the wheel house of starter food. I sieve out the powder with my wife's favorite strainer. I figure if it's good enough for her, it will do just fine with dead fish parts. The leftover 1/4" pellets are ground up with my fish food Ninja, not my wife's, and I strain it also. The bigger chucks get added to the 1/8" pellets I'm feeding the stocked CNBG.
AFTERTHOUGHT: Fry are approaching 1", and are migrating to the larger CNBG.
I push the smallest fry harder than any other class size when raising CNBG. Having successful spawns are only worthwhile if the fry survive the first 30-45 days, so feeding them as early as possible makes a huge difference in the final numbers. Or at least it did for me in the past.
Pecking at surface fish food powder by fry that are just developing digestive systems gets them a really good start, and they quickly transition to small pellets. I'm currently hand feeding my CNBG 3 1/2 cups of food a day, and slowly upping it 1/2 cup a week. They could eat more, but because of the heat and lack of rain, I'm trying to keep the water as clean as possible. I've already done one 8 hour 3" pump flush from the big pond, just to give them a little fresh water.
Just a reminder, I'm doing nothing but passing on what I do, and had success with.
This may just relate to warmer southern waters, so take that into consideration. Of course, a lot of the northern states also got hit hard this year by very high temps.
If you're raising forage, and have a target size in mind, then don't overlook the pull out date. I haven't done a surface temperature test because I know it's already 90+, and that means these CNBG won't be safely pulled out for another 3-4 months. If you're leaving the forage pond active, and just taking out a certain percentage annually, then I wouldn't think size consideration would be an issue at all.
Since my original stockers are almost at my 5" target length, I've cut back their 1/8" pellets from 3 cups to 3/4 of a cup a day, and I'm now focusing on the 1" to 3" CNBG at the upper end of the pond. I'm feeding these 2.2mm pellets, and increasing the numbers weekly. I hope the vast majority of the first and second spawns in my hatchery pond will be 4" to 5" by October. If not, then I can safely pull those out in November or early December.
In short, consider the gape size and length of the predator fish you're wanting to provide forage for, and don't blow by those numbers when raising forage specifically for them. If you're raising forage to survive those predators, and hopefully survive to spawn when they're moved to the primary pond, then by all means continue to feed them at proper amounts to get them to a larger size.
Great post Al! Cecil is raising some trout for me to stock this Fall, and he had to cut back feeding them significantly. I think he's feeding them once every other day now, or they would be way bigger than the target weight of 1#-1 1/4# each.
PH
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