Pond Boss
Posted By: Chad C 4026 Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/05/07 12:40 AM
I would like to know what everybody thinks about using a wire basket filling it with fish scraps or old meat and letting it rot so maggots fall thus feeding your fish. Ive been doing it for two years and its cool to see bluegill and schools of perch go to town under it.
I think it's a great idea as long as you don't mind the smell! \:D
Posted By: rmedgar Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/05/07 01:37 AM
Chad, the most obvious potential problem might be the smell, but it does sound like a great idea.
Which sounds worse - "rot basket" or "maggot box"? :rolleyes:

I have considered the concept, Chad. I decided I wouldn't do it in a pond my family swims in. I didn't like the thought of the chunks of fur from old road kill getting in the pond.

I believe that was the one decision wrt the pond I made last year that my wife considers sane.
Posted By: bz Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/05/07 05:28 AM
I've too been doing this for several years. Works great, smells bad when you're down wind. My pond extends way out beyond my back yard far enough that you never smell it from the yard. So the family doesn't even know it's there. I use waste fish and road kill in my basket. I think it's a very efficient way to convert dead things into fish food. The following is not for the faint of heart ... I put a grey squirrel on there once and when it was fully maggotized I picked it up by the tail and shook the maggots out the mouth and eyes. I swear I got two cups of maggots and the hide was empty afterwards other than bones. In a couple of days it turned from squirrel to high protein fish food. And it's free.
I here ya but my basket is about 500 feet away. And the fish are crapping and ducks otters turtles frogs birds are to and what about all that spawning going on that your family swims in. Rotting fish on bottem that you dont even know about. Just throwing this out there take for what its worth. I like it because I dont have to buy fish food and its a garaunteed spot to show my kid all the fish.
I have a mechanical timed shaker on mind and i get millions because of that concept you got to get those maggots out of there to keep it going.
I personally have not used anything furry.
Posted By: Brettski Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/05/07 10:45 AM
Chad...I fear that somehow I'm going to regret asking this, but the curiosity is overwhelming. I gotta see a pic of this shaker mechanism. Yes...in action.
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(btw, have been thru your fair town (city?) no less than a gazillion times on the way to and from our place up in the Nicolet when I was a kid...very nice slice of Americana)
Posted By: Sunil Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/05/07 02:00 PM
bz, you are quite a man to go up and shake that maggot infested gray squirrel.

I have come to terms with the fact that I am a wussie.
Posted By: Yolk Sac Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/05/07 02:04 PM
Sunil-

You're selling yourself short.

You're just "smallie-licked"
Posted By: Sunil Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/05/07 02:48 PM
I don't know Yolk.

"Know thyself" is an important concept to me.

While I feel I can accomplish anything I set my mind to, there is some disconnect or short with me trying to convince myself to vibe with the rot basket. Baiting the rot basket is one thing, but going in and shaking the semi-processed attractant is a whole other matter in and of itself.
Posted By: Blaine Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/05/07 03:18 PM
This has been one of the most entertaining threads that I have ever read on this forum. LOL
Patent pending lol it is a motor that rolls the basket like a raffle ticket box. You know it is not just the maggots its insects who land on the surface of the water that get picked off.
The smell really is no worse than field dressing a deer.
Posted By: bz Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/06/07 02:26 AM
Sunil, I had my nose plugged the whole time. My family does not swim in my pond. I do occasionally but not near the basket. The shaker is a creative idea but I can't believe you need one. Maggots feed until they mature and then they crawl out of the carcass and naturally head for the ground. They normally burrow into the dirt to chrysalise and turn into flies. I have manually shaken mine many times but find that I get way too much oily "crud" dropping along with the maggots. They all end up in the pond on their own anyway and they're full grown when they drop naturally. Whatever method you use go to it and get that high protien feed growing and falling into the water. I think those of us who use this method deserve some sort of "green" recycling award or something.
Posted By: Dwight Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/06/07 02:55 AM
Protein offset? \:D :p
Posted By: Sunil Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/06/07 02:57 AM
bz wrote "I think those of us who use this method deserve some sort of "green" recycling award"

Oh yeah! You do deserve some kind of award.

Really, I'm all for the method though.
Posted By: cmb Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/06/07 08:12 AM
This is the funniest and most disgusting thread I think I've ever read on here. Classic quote - "I personally haven't used anything furry" \:D

I have a picture in my head of guys scooping up road kill...what for? To feed the fish, of course! \:D

This would make for a great question on a test measuring your level of pond obsession - "would you put a box of rotting animal flesh over your pond for the resultant high quality fish food?" Bonus points if you'd use road kill. :p
Moderator here:

We can talk about rotting flesh and maggots all we want guys, but let's lay off the politicians. This IS a family friendly site. \:\)
When your women doesent have with a death grip come talk to me like i said its all fun and games. theres some things that time cannot erase.
Posted By: GW Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/06/07 12:53 PM
Neat idea, in a messy kinda way.

It might be prudent to know how the dead critter met it's end.

 Quote:
Botulism is a food poisoning. The toxin-producing bacterium, C. botulinum, is common in surface soils of both the terrestrial and the aquatic environment. Toxins are produced only when conditions favor growth and multiplication of the bacterium.

Type C toxin occurs in carcasses of dead invertebrates, in the flesh of birds dying of botulism, and in maggots feeding on toxic carcasses. In a type C botulism outbreak the sequence of events are: aquatic invertebrates ingest the bacterium when feeding and a lowering of water levels or an increase in water temperature causes large numbers of the invertebrates to die. The carcasses of the invertebrates provide a good medium for growth of the bacterium with subsequent production of toxin. Ducks feeding on the toxic dead invertebrates found in the bottom sediments become poisoned and die. Maggots infesting the duck carcasses become toxic and are eaten by ducks and other species of birds, thus increasing bird mortality in an explosive manner.
SOURCE

I'm sure there are other toxins that could be passed to your fish via the maggots. It probably would be a rare thing to lose fish this way, but it's worth considering.
Posted By: bz Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/07/07 02:24 AM
Sorry about the politician comment. Yankee your comment about botulism is interesting. I wonder what conditions would have to exist to make that happen. I originally started doing this at the suggestion of my local DNR fisheries guy. You got me having second thoughts. The old saying must be true, there is no free lunch for my fish is there?
Posted By: GW Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/07/07 03:52 AM
bz, did you check out the link under the quote? It seems to cover the basic conditions that lead to this situation.
you sure dont need to shake the box because they pupate underground

maggots are clean, despite what they eat. to clean frostbite it has long been common to allow maggots to clean up the putrified flesh of explorers and mountaineers
Posted By: bobad Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/07/07 12:55 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by bz:
I wonder what conditions would have to exist to make that happen. I originally started doing this at the suggestion of my local DNR fisheries guy. You got me having second thoughts.
BZ,

The "pro's", that is, people that commonly do post-mortems on animals, will tell you there are a lot of myths about dead animals spreading disease. I wouldn't worry at all. Botulism in any situation is very rare. As long as you know what killed the animal, you'll be safe. Even if you don't know what killed the animal, the chances of it being infected with botulism is execcdingly rare.
Posted By: GW Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/07/07 01:04 PM
I would/will use this system once I have a pond.

What I got from the article I posted is not to use birds if there is a large number of them dead from an unknown cause. Also I probably wouldn't use dead fish from my own pond just to be safe.
Posted By: GW Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/07/07 09:20 PM
I just finished reading an article I had set aside while researching maggots as fish food. I still would probably utilize a rot basket for feeding fish, but given what I just read I would definitely avoid using any birds as a medium, especially waterfowl.

One of the most interesting points this article makes is that avian botulism is anything but rare.

Here are a few excerpts from the article:

"During the last century, avian botulism killed many millions of
birds, especially waterfowl and shorebirds, and was the most
significant disease of waterbirds in total mortality. Large
outbreaks of “duck sickness”, later recognized to be type C botu-
lism, were first documented in the western USA and Canada in
the early 1900s (Hobmaier 1932)."

"More than a million deaths from
type C avian botulism have been reported during single
outbreaks in some wetlands in North America and Russia (Table
1), and outbreaks with losses exceeding 50 000 birds have been
relatively common. Even though most of the large outbreaks of
avian botulism occurred in North America, the global impor-
tance of the disease and its potential to cause massive and even
catastrophic losses of birds are evident."

"Birds that sift through the mud to feed, such as Mallard and
other dabbling ducks, and filter feeders, such as Northern
Shoveler, are likely to ingest a wide variety of decaying organic
matter or dead invertebrates that may contain sufficient levels of
toxin to cause botulism. Waterbirds may also be poisoned upon
consumption of zooplankton or wetland invertebrates that have
consumed toxic material. The carcass-maggot cycle, described in
more detail below, is a classic example of secondary poisoning
through consumption of toxin-laden invertebrates, but other
aquatic animals may serve in this role as well. Wetlands are home
to numerous invertebrates and zooplankton that consume organic
debris, particularly in the benthos, and type C botulinum toxin has
been demonstrated in free-living aquatic invertebrates (Kalmbach
& Gunderson 1934, Rocke unpubl. data), crustacea (Rocke
unpubl. data), and zooplankton (Neubauer et al. 1988).
Unfortunately, direct evidence that clarifies the role of inverte-
brates in the initiation of botulism outbreaks is lacking. Instead,
most research has focused on the role of sarcophagous larvae on
carcasses and the carcass-maggot cycle of botulism."

"Carcass-maggot cycle of avian botulism
It is well known that decomposing tissues containing botulinum
spores can support high levels of toxin production (Bell et al.
1955, Reed & Rocke 1992). Fly larvae and other invertebrates are
unaffected by the toxin and, as they feed on decaying matter, they
effectively act to concentrate the toxin. Toxin levels in maggots as
high as 400 000 mouse lethal doses (MLD)/g have been found on
waterfowl carcasses (Duncan & Jensen 1976). With a 50% lethal
dose for type C botulinum toxin in waterfowl estimated at 36 000-
43 000 MLD/kg of body weight (Rocke et al. 2000), ingestion of
only a single toxic maggot could be lethal. Although most water-
fowl will not directly consume a vertebrate carcass, many would
ingest maggots that fall off. In this way, botulism outbreaks in
waterfowl often become self-perpetuating. This has become
known as the carcass-maggot cycle of botulism, and it is thought
that toxic maggots have the greatest potential to cause massive
die-offs of birds (Wobeser 1997)."

ARTICLE

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be alarmist. It's just that I was totally unaware of this information and it's definitely something I would want to know if I found dead waterfowl by my pond (if I had a pond)(which I don't at this time)(but hopefully will soon)(soon being relative of course).
Posted By: trialsguy Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/07/07 09:39 PM
I have a squirrel that the dogs have killed just waiting for a feeder basket to be installed. neat, neat, neat! I was thinking of a basket floating out in the middle in a inner tube to keep the smell from being to close to shore, then I remembered I have turtles and they surely would figure out a way to get to the carcass. Hey if you felt like you needed to shake up the basket just tie a string to it and give it shake now and then from shore.
Posted By: bz Re: Comments wanted on using a rot basket. - 05/08/07 02:50 AM
I hang my basket from a pole sticking out from the dock. Many times when I'm on the dock I'll give the pole a shake just to see the fish feed. But the maggots will all hit the water on their own eventually. I got a few friends that really look at me funny when they come over fishing and see/smell the "recycling center" as we call it. Just a side note, I hate cats and I've told several neighbors that I'd be glad to recycle theirs for them. They give me a wierd look but little do they know that I'm serious. There are a lot of farrell cats around here and more than one has been converted to fish food. I guess I'm not going to worry about botulism since I only use animals that I've killed myself or I know how they got killed versus died of disease. The only birds I use are my own chickens when they get killed by an animal or something. You know this is a rather morbid discussion isn't it? But that's life I guess.
I use all the walleye scrapes that I catch and basically not much of anything else. I also get donations of other slain walleyes to. Its better than stinking up my garbage can or thiers. My pond is also not located at my residence and i personally dont swim in it. even though its over an acre in size.
DY: For a short time, I thought this might be the answers to everyone's commorant / heron prayers. Looks like it gets the wrong birds though. :-( Bummer!

"Carcass-maggot cycle of avian botulism
It is well known that decomposing tissues containing botulinum spores can support high levels of toxin production (Bell et al.
1955, Reed & Rocke 1992). Fly larvae and other invertebrates are unaffected by the toxin and, as they feed on decaying matter, they effectively act to concentrate the toxin. Toxin levels in maggots as high as 400 000 mouse lethal doses (MLD)/g have been found on waterfowl carcasses (Duncan & Jensen 1976). With a 50% lethal dose for type C botulinum toxin in waterfowl estimated at 36 000-43 000 MLD/kg of body weight (Rocke et al. 2000), ingestion of only a single toxic maggot could be lethal. Although most water-fowl will not directly consume a vertebrate carcass, many would ingest maggots that fall off. In this way, botulism outbreaks in waterfowl often become self-perpetuating. This has become known as the carcass-maggot cycle of botulism, and it is thought that toxic maggots have the greatest potential to cause massive die-offs of birds (Wobeser 1997)."
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