Land Values - Pond Boss Forum

I need some of ya'll to play devil's advocate for me. We have a ranch in North Tx with multiple(9) ponds and 2 lakes. Our land values have increased dramatically over the last 5-7 years. It has been a very good investment with great enjoyment. Here is my dilemma. I am concerned with not having income off of it for future generations so it could possibly stay w/in the family. I have many ideas and that is not what I'm asking about in this thread. Specifically we have been approached by a wind generation company to put wind generators on our land. Approximately 20+ stories tall on some barren land we do not use at the north end of our ranch. Income could be 25,000-60,000/ year to us. Possibly more over the years. We would be able to see them from the house but it would be more than 3/4 of a mile away. In your opinion does this hurt or help the value of the land. Just a note if we do not do it will still happen on someone else's land so they will be quite prominent in our area. Again it takes up no cover and is on land that we never use. Give me your thoughts.

Thanks, Buzz

Sounds like it would help the value. Barren land turned into profitable land. Sounds like a win-win.

Quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Tatom:
I need some of ya'll to play devil's advocate for me. We have a ranch in North Tx with multiple(9) ponds and 2 lakes. Our land values have increased dramatically over the last 5-7 years. It has been a very good investment with great enjoyment. Here is my dilemma. I am concerned with not having income off of it for future generations so it could possibly stay w/in the family. I have many ideas and that is not what I'm asking about in this thread. Specifically we have been approached by a wind generation company to put wind generators on our land. Approximately 20+ stories tall on some barren land we do not use at the north end of our ranch. Income could be 25,000-60,000/ year to us. Possibly more over the years. We would be able to see them from the house but it would be more than 3/4 of a mile away. In your opinion does this hurt or help the value of the land. Just a note if we do not do it will still happen on someone else's land so they will be quite prominent in our area. Again it takes up no cover and is on land that we never use. Give me your thoughts.

Thanks, Buzz

How many acres overall?

I assume the wind generation company is seeking to LEASE the land from you. If so, for how long and do they have the right to cancel? Do they want a purchase option? If so, under what terms and price increase formula if any?

Are there "step-ups" in the proposed lease tied to a cost-of-living or similar index? What about "their share of taxes and assesments, who pays?

Would they fence off the area that they intend to use?

Is it possible to sub-divide the property giving the leasee the areas they want and keep the more desireable recreational part for yourself?

Do you have to provide access over your property to the leased/fenced areas? If so, can you restrict access to a designated pathway?

It doesn't hurt or help the land's futute value ... only in they eyes of the potential buyer and depends on what their wants/needs are at that time.

The company is only leasing and we can limit them to the area that we deem. Lease is basically for 50 years. We would have all the legalese of them removing, damages, etc. They cover any additional taxes that come about from the base year. The way they compensate for inflation is by paying you a gross % of the electricity they sell from that tower(s). They can fence that area at our discretion. We grant an easement of @ 30 feet wide straight across the flat land. Again this does not get in the way of any cover, lake or any kind of recreational use at all. Keep those comments coming!

Buzz,

Just like we say in ponds...it all depends on your objectives. If your objective is to generate income so that it will be easier to hold onto the land in the face of increasing land values, seems like the wind generation would be a logical thing to do, assuming the details are worked out in a satisfactory manner.

If you are interested only in investment value, i.e. selling the land at max profit in the future, then the answer isn't an easy one, IMO. Some, perhaps many, prospective buyers are looking for a place just like you describe, and would be deterred by the presence of a wind farm. Other buyers might be intrigued by the presence of income generating infrastructure on the property, but my guess is that the buyers with money are much more in the former category than the latter.

Large property which is isolated from development is really getting to be rare. People who seek such property generally have the money that is required to procure it.

Sorry I forgot to add 1000 acres. Ok, Meadowlark quit riding the fence. All things being equal if you loved the land and were looking to buy would it deter you? I'm looking for blatantly honest answers. 50 years is a long time. I know it is just your opinion but give me your gut instinct.

Thanks, Buzz

Buzz, I read about the project last week. It's pretty hard to use a crystal ball and you know taxes will increase no matter what you do with the land. They are paying the increased taxes and you need to negotiate something about previous years. I talked to the Tax people in Montague County about ag taxes, etc. They told me about one landowner who put a 4 wheeler track on his land. I believe they told me that they went back 5 years and recalculated his taxes as if it had been commercial during those preceeding years.

I have seen a bunch of them by Lubbock. Have you considered going there and having talks with the land owners to get their perspective?

I would ask about any restrictive covenants that they will put on you. I expect you could also negotiate free elec. for the ranch.

I expect it might deter me somewhat if I were buying. However, you say your goal is to find a way to generate income to keep it in the family.

BTW, I recall several years ago that you were having to work your tail off to catch enough bass to properly manage your lakes. How has that been going?

If you wouldn't mind looking at them, I would do it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Tatom:
Ok, Meadowlark quit riding the fence. All things being equal if you loved the land and were looking to buy would it deter you? I'm looking for blatantly honest answers.

Ok Buzz...the cold hard answer from me:

Yes it would deter me. I looked long and hard for isolation from development in the land I purchased. I looked for natural beauty. I looked for something I would never relinquish until death. I looked for something which would represent life in this country long before wind farms were even contemplated in science fiction books.

But I march to a different drummer than many and that is why I tried to give you a more general response. For me, the wind farm would be an automatic exclusion of that property from purchase prospects.

Dave, I heard about the 4 wheeler track too. In our area it was a bicycle track that got there ag exemption taken away. We switched ours from ag to wildlife a couple of years ago. We have asked for a clarification that our wildlife exemption would not change from the tax people. They are checking into it.

We were going to check out the ones close to Abilene. At the dog & pony show they had for the area they had one rancher from down there come and talk to us. He was very positive about them on having no effect on him at all while getting income.

We asked about the free electricity and that is not a possibility at this point.

My concern is as this ranch becomes more and more valuable with time the income has to be there for family to not be tempted to make a quick buck. It will inevitably happen that it will leave the family but I'm just trying to give future generations some flexibility.

On the fishing front, I would say we have been semi successful. We catch good fish from both lakes but are fixing to build a 3rd and it really becomes work when trying to keep it on the right track. My problem is my wife somehow got herself pregnant at the age of 41 and now it is getting harder and harder to do my "fishing" job.

Thanks Meadowlark. I don't disagree with you. I like to go in lock the gate and know no one can come in unless I let them. Thanks for the answer that's what I'm looking for. I've always told my wife that I don't really like most people and I was very lucky to find her. How she likes me I don't know.

Buzz:

1) Congratulations $\:\)$ . Perhaps if you'd spent more time fishing you could continue to spend more time fishing :rolleyes: .

2) The closest to this situation that I have any experience with is cell phone towers. Twice we have had "discussions" with companies looking to put in towers in our locale, both times thet went elsewhere for what I believe to be technical reasons. One clause which is common to cell tower leases (IIRC) is that all construction added for the tower is removed at the end of the lease at the tower company's expense. That seems like something you might want to have in a windfarm lease also.

3) FWIW, if it were already my land and I wanted to stay on it as much as I would like to stay where I am now, I would put in the windfarm and use the income to hang on for as many years and generations as possible. If I was looking for land to acquire, it would deter me unless the windfarm income would be enough to let me swing the deal for your 1000 acres which I couldn't get otherwise. So perhaps you have to decide to fish or cut bait.

Good luck with everything. We need more windfarms.

Theo if you sell the land the windfarm income would go with it from our perspective. That is one of the things I'm struggling with is the real need this country has for alternative energy but no one wants it in their backyard. That is very easy for me to say considering I have someone that wants to pay me for it but this country has got to get away from the Middle East oil. I have invited my neighbor into the discussion so he will give the other side of the argument hopefully. Richard?

Thanks, Buzz

Buzz,

A very good friend of mine owns a crane repair business in California, where I'm from. He had the contract to maintain the cranes used to maintain the windfarm in the Livermore hills of California. At one time, one of the bigger wind farms around.

I don't know anything about the owners of the land or how it affected them, just what he told me about it.

The windmills require huge amounts of maintenance. They had a crew working full time greasing and repairing them by drivng from one to the other with a guy up in the bucket. They never lowered it and the strain and damage on the boom kept my buddy busy.

According to him, the windmills never generated a proffit because of all the expenses in maintaining them. They were built for tax credits and government grants and have changed ownership several times.

Now they mostly sit abandonded and have even started to fall down from neglect!!!

My concern is two fold. First, they ruin the value of your land. If I could afford your land, I would not buy it because of the windmills. I have bought as much as 300 acres before and have walked away from a deal on 400 acres because of visually ugly features on the land along with the easments associated with the land. I buy land on ocassion as an investment and expect to sell it at a profit, so that would be a huge red flag for me.

The other issue would be as a landowner. How much impact would constant maintenance affect your pasture? Roads will have to be built through the area to service each windmill. How sure are you that they will make a profit and you will actualy get something in return?

They could be going in as a government feel good tax thing like in California and never actually make a profit. If that happens, you won't see a dime, but the company who puts them in gets all sorts of tax credits for spending the money to put them there.

If it doesn't work our, or they go bankrupt, how do you get rid of them?

In my opinion, and it's just that, I'd find another way to make some money off the land that you have more control over. Let the other guy take the gamble. If it in fact turns out to be a money makeing operation, they will want to put more in and you'll still have the land.

Good luck,
Eddie

Eddie thanks for the info. That has been one of the comments that has been raised is the maintenance. The company says there is very little maintenance and so does the rancher in Abilene, although his are fairly new. The company doing it has others all over the country and has a record of never selling any of their towers to this point.

You have a guaranteed minimum per tower per year. Of course a guarantee is only as good as the guarantor. This is a Fortune 500 company doing it publicly traded with a very strong balance sheet.

That would be one of the contract write ins is once they are out of use for a year they would have to restore the land to original pasture land.

Thank you for your opinion.

Buzz, one consideration may be to consider the revenue income potential relative to your own net worth or income, and the future family's prospects of income.

Also a question, do you have Natural Gas or Oil Wells on your property now?

I'm guessing the company is TXU or Reliant?

Meadowlark & Theo would a wind farm in the area but not on the land you were considering purchasing be a turnoff to buy?

Sunil we will have wells on our property pretty soon but we do not own the mineral rights so that is a bummer.

My consideration on my net worth is not a consideration but I do think future generations will have a much harder go of it in this country.
I'm a little bit negative on our future in this country for future generations. That is the concern for the income for future family members.

Sunil I can't say who it is but there state is known for having trouble with elections. I say no more.

Keep the comments coming. I'm learning.

Thanks, Buzz

Quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Tatom:
Meadowlark & Theo would a wind farm in the area but not on the land you were considering purchasing be a turnoff to buy?

No, I don't think so...perhaps if it were highly visible and/or generated a lot of traffic/visitors then it might be somewhat of a negative, but otherwise I would think not.

Buzz, you seem to be right on considering the look/feel of these windmills even if they are on adjacent properties. If that was the case, you'd still have the sight of them without any income.

Is the Utility Company talking to your neighbors also?

And, is this something where if you are going forward with this, that the neighbors can vote it down? Or do they have to approve?

Quote:

Originally posted by Sunil:
And, is this something where if you are going forward with this, that the neighbors can vote it down? Or do they have to approve?

Sunil,

This is Texas we are talking about, my friend $\:\)$ ...individual freedom still reigns supreme. No state income tax and I can build a pond and stock it as I please. Common courtesy is expected and practiced by good neighbors. In Houston, a world class city, we do not have zoning laws.

Texas...I wasn't born here, but got here as fast as I could! $\:\)$

Hey Buzz...
since you're fishin' for opinions, I will share my posture wrt

Quote:

would a wind farm in the area but not on the land you were considering purchasing be a turnoff to buy?

I spent alot of time searching for the right pc of small acreage here in the midwest. My goals were secluded, quiet, and pastoral. Active RR trax and hi tension wires/towers squashed any appeal. I occassionally found gorgeous wooded properties at fair prices (hard to believe in this area), only to find an eyesore that likely explained why it hadn't already been snapped up. I remember the absolutely perfect, pond-able 40 ac that got nix'd because of the radio tower less than 1/4 mile away. These were MY parameters, tho. Somebody must care less about these kinda things because they all eventually sell. Like mentioned in previous posts, depends on what your lookin' for.

The wind company is saying it is going to happen whether it is on your land or your neighbors. A bit of a strong hand tactic although at least they are being upfront about it.

The neighbor in front of us has barren land and likes $$$ so we feel very certain that if we don't he will and we will still be staring at them with no compensation. The wind farm is going to be put in it is just where will it be located.

With it being over 20 stories tall it will be seen for miles. One guy says over 30 miles although I don't think that would be right.

The neighbors are a consideration although not from a legal standpoint.

Our big thing is our opinion that our neighbor will put them in plain sight of our house on his land with no compensation to us.

Brettski that is one of the attractions to the utility company is the power lines that go through a very corner of our property. Easy tie in to power grid and close proximity to a major market(Dallas). Thanks for your opinion.

Quote:

The wind company is saying it is going to happen whether it is on your land or your neighbors...... The neighbor in front of us has barren land and likes $$$ so we feel very certain that if we don't he will and we will still be staring at them with no compensation

Jeesh, Buzz...what a lousy conundrum. Between this and Gator's snap-happy pond hobos, I'm gonna start to find it difficult to become angry when the neighbor's dog dumps in my yard.
So, what if they broke ground across the street tomorrow for 20 wind monsters on the Smith's property. What would you do?

Without knowing all the details, it sounds like you may as well reap the monetary benefit simply because someone else will if you don't. Then you'll still have the sight issue.

This is just my speculation, but I would guess that the wind company would enter into talks with numerous parties and eventually settle on the path of least resistance ie/ the easiest party to negotiate with.

While I would attempt to negotiate the best deal for my family, there might be a fine line somewhere by which they would call off negotiations and revert to the next land owner in line.

ML, I hear you about the great state of Texas.

At most it would be 4 or 5 wind generators but the diameter of the blades can fit a 747 inside of them. That tells you a little bit more on how big they are.

What would I do? You would be fighting a losing battle. I would probably wish that money was coming to my family instead of his. That is my problem. Don't want to mess up my neighbors but if it is inevitable and I have to look at them from afar I would just as soon the money come to my family.

...can they be fitted with aerators?

Sunil that is certainly the way the wind power company is positioning it. It remains to be seen whether that happens.

One of my problems that I have is how much complaining I've done in how many other states don't want the drilling or refineries but they will sure complain all the way to the gas pump.

I'm finding I'm as good of a hippocrite as the next guy.

Brettski clarify your aerator comment...Not sure where yo're going. If your talking about for a pond that would reaaly oxygenate you fast.

if you dont need the money...but are concerned about the future liability that you put on your children, why no consider putting the land in an easement that will save a BUNCH of money in the long run?

are you interested in adopting me?

2thDoc, I'm too much of a hard*** then we would have to go to counseling and get in touch with the inner us. Not worth it.

Easements aren't real big in Tx and probably would hurt your value a lot more than a wind farm in your backyard. Not interested.

My comment about the money is that the value of the land now and not having any income from it will totally change 10, 20, 30 years from now and if my kids want to keep it they have the income from the land to support that decision. If they want to sell so be it, I just want them to have options.

My grandmother used to say, "they can always print more money but they never make more land." $;\)$

Quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Tatom:
Meadowlark & Theo would a wind farm in the area but not on the land you were considering purchasing be a turnoff to buy?

Complicated question for me, Buzz, long answer coming.

Simplified as much as possible, if the appearance and noise (I've no idea about that - maybe they creak constantly $\:D$ ) didn't bother me, the windmills wouldn't. I reserve the right to complain long and loud while trying to negotiate land prices down before buying.

Now the complicated part - what's a nuisance? The cell phone tower that didn't go up on my place went up catty-cornered across the road. I can see the top 1/2 of it or so over our horse barn from my house. It doesn't bother me one whit.

But the house closest to it (not belonging to the lease money collector) is having kittens, puppies, and cows about it - screaming in the paper, calling all the neighbors, complaining to state politicians. Partially this may be an ex-in-law jealousy problem (the couple in the "offended" house went so far as having the natural gas line crossing their property to the "offending" house, put in without a deeded right-of-way, forcibly removed - shutting off the heat last Winter in the house their niece and nephew live in. And some of us think OUR families may be disfunctional!)

But all the time this couple is screaming about a cell tower, my wife and I have noted that they have a high-tension power line (the same one on my place) running up their driveway and right past their house that they don't seem to notice. It was there when they built their house.

I think "nuisance" is mostly "not used to it" in this context. How often have you seen an attractive telephone pole? But have you ever been bothered to the point of complaint, or do you just accept them because they've "always" been there?

I think if wind power really takes off (as it should although not necessarily will, IMHO), a windfarm next door will be no more annoying to most people than a telephone pole in your front yard. Most of us won't much notice or care.

Theo reminds me that I need to clarify my own situation.

I live right next door to a big blue water tower. I'd estimate it's 150-200' tall, and maybe 150' in diameter. It's like a big egg that sits on 12 legs.

Basicially, I've grown up next to the thing from 9 years old. This was my parents house. I didn't live there for about 10 years after college. Then they moved and made me the "offer I couldn't refuse" to buy the house.

So I am desensitized. I mean this thing is right next to my house, maybe 200' way, with nothing in between.

As an example, my neighbor, who is a big model train enthusiast, had a real train caboose plopped down in his back yard. Most other neighbors were shocked and wanted to protest.

I thought WTF, what's another few tons of carbon steel laying around to me?

Now the rub.....What will all those things, water tower & caboose, mean when I sell?

Exactly the same questions that Buzz is asking.

Quote:

Brettski clarify your aerator comment...Not sure where yo're going. If your talking about for a pond that would reaaly oxygenate you fast.

sorry Buzz...I forgot the "smartipants" Graemlins $;\)$ $\:D$

"I thought ***, what's another few tons of carbon steel laying around to me?"

For some reason Sunil, this comment cracked me up. $\:\)$

Quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Tatom:
I need some of ya'll to play devil's advocate for me. We have a ranch in North Tx with multiple(9) ponds and 2 lakes. Our land values have increased dramatically over the last 5-7 years. It has been a very good investment with great enjoyment. Here is my dilemma. I am concerned with not having income off of it for future generations so it could possibly stay w/in the family. I have many ideas and that is not what I'm asking about in this thread. Specifically we have been approached by a wind generation company to put wind generators on our land. Approximately 20+ stories tall on some barren land we do not use at the north end of our ranch. Income could be 25,000-60,000/ year to us. Possibly more over the years. We would be able to see them from the house but it would be more than 3/4 of a mile away. In your opinion does this hurt or help the value of the land. Just a note if we do not do it will still happen on someone else's land so they will be quite prominent in our area. Again it takes up no cover and is on land that we never use. Give me your thoughts.

Thanks, Buzz

Buzz, to find out for certain, you would need to see what two very similar properties sell for, with the only difference being one has a view of the wind mills and the other does not, and you would need to review as many of these sales/scenerios as possible. An appraiser who specializes in this could be consulted. You would hopefully find one in your state, if not, an expert in this very narrow niche could be consulted from other parts of the country, and be ready to pay dearly.

Using a cheap man's method, you will notice that people will build almost anywhere. Go out and look. Look for TVA substations, and powerlines, or whatever the electric authority has out there, and see if it matters. To me, they are much uglier than windmills, but I've never seen them(windmills) in person. Around here, there are plenty of half million dollar homes, almost directly under TVA powerlines.

Bottom line is, to come close to prove mathematically what you should do is going to be a costly endeavor. If you plan to never sell, you may want the income, assumnig there are no negative things caused by these windmills. I mean the Power substations and lines are suspects of causing cancer, and people still live in and around them. Surely your situation wouldn't be so bad.

Good luck.

This appears to be a win win situation for you. Would a pumping oilwell deter some people from buying? What if they got the mineral rights? Those of us fortunate enough to be able to own a recreactional property are faced with the same problem. How do you keep it in the family? It will become increasingly harder for future generations to purchase rec property. We know the vast benefits of a rec property and it is our job to pass that wisdom on to our children and grandchildren. The windmills provide a way to help your family keep the property and provide clean electricity. A win win for all. Windmills ,generating income, located in a non productive area of a rec property would be a plus for me. I am currently high fencing my place and some people would not consider a high fenced rec properety. Go for it and good luck.

BUZZ if you don't wantem or if they are looking for other land owners please send them my way. Anything that will generate 2000$ plus income a month would be the most beautiful feature on my property. No land in Texas unless it is in the path of metro sprawl will ever increase at that rate. You no what the farmer in west Texas said the most Beautiful think he has ever seen looking over his ranch was the sight of his registered poled Hereford laying in the shade of a pump jack. They can find me at www.rockytoppers.com

My name is Jack Schoppa. I am a real estate appraiser and broker in the small town near Mr. Tatom's property.

Since I learned about this proposed project I have done extensive research on industrial wind farms and have condensed what I have learned into an article of my own relevant to this particular project.

In my defense please allow me to state that I am all for alternative energy sources. I am plenty sick and tired of paying $75+- to fill my pick up. (And, no, I can't properly tend to my few old cows with out a big pick up.) Also, in my defense, I have not read every post here, I have only scanned several of them.

I will say that some comments are right on target. Others are not.

One thing that you need to understand is that this little area is very scenic with rolling hills and mature trees. It is known as the "North Texas Hill Country" and some have identified it as "A Little Colorado in Texas". And it is these scenic rural views that create the demand that drives the property values in this area. A short distance to the south and east is the beginnings of the D/FW metroplex and the congestion associated with that. Shortly to the west is the rocky, Mesquite covered plains of west Texas. To the north is Oklahoma which is a completely different market. So, we are, in fact, in a unique little "pocket" that is currently in high demand primarily for its scenic rural views, privacy, and short distance to the D/FW metromess. Folks out of the D/FW metromess flock (and I do mean flock) to this area on weekends just to drive around, visit our small town stores and see the countryside. So, I hope that this helps you to understand why THIS particular site is important to us local folks.

Another misconception I seemed to notice repeatedly is about the size of these industrial windmills. I notices one of the posts was from a guy who has lived beside a water tower for his whole life and has become "desensitized" to it. Well, that is a good thing for him, but will he have to find someone who is already "pre-desensitized" to something similar to that to sell his house to? Might he have to accept a lower price than a similar house a mile away from the water tower in order to sell it?

So, please allow me to present a brief description of the actual size of these boogers so everyone will be thinking along the same line.

FOUNDATION: The concrete and steel foundation is 14 feet in diameter and 28 feet deep in the ground and weighs 167 TONS. What will happen with these in 50 or 100 years when the windmills are removed?

TOWER: The tower alone is 260+ feet tall. That is very similar to TWO TIMES the height of our local water tower and is 14 feet in diameter. That ain't like no high line pole.

GENERATOR: The generator that sits on top of the tower is as big as a small school bus and weighs about half again as much as a D-9 Caterpillar bulldozer (for those who may not know, those are the really BIG bulldozers).

BLADES: Each blade is 131 feet long, about the same as our water tower and weighs 6.5 TONS. The "fan" created by the three blades is very similar in circumfrence to a 747 Jumbo Jet. Think about how far away a jet is when you see them flying in the sky. Well, that is how far away you can see these things. When a blade is at its high point during rotation it is 393 feet in the air, about the same as THREE water towers, or about one and one-third football fields. The "fan" only rotates at about 22 rounds per minute but the tips of the blades are moving at about 180 miles per hour. That is a big circle.

COMMENT: Try to imagine a "fan" the size of a 474 and weighing about 19.5 TONS whirling around on a small school bus mounted on top of two water towers.

VISIBILITY: I have personally seen the wind farm out west of Abilene, Texas, from what I scaled on a map to be right at 60 miles. Of course that is much flatter country than here. They look obvious at 40 miles away and look big at 30 miles away. You can see them, and the shadows they cast, from the air when you fly over that country in a commercial jet. These here things ain't nothing like no oil wells or no power lines.

THE ENERGY COMPANY AND THE DOMINO EFFECT: The energy company came into this part of the country about a year ago. They pinpointed key locations and contacted those land owners and had them sign CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENTS stating that they would not talk about this project with anyone. That is why I felt the duty and responsibility to write the article after I learned of the project. I NEEDED to let my neighbors know what was about to happen to us. Now, if this is such a good thing, why do you think the energy company requires Confidentiality Agreements?

The energy company moved into this area quickly and quietly, spotted a few key locations, convinced those land owners how rich they would get and then made them swear to secrecy. Quite a plan huh? Then when the news does finally break, as Mr. Tatom referred to in several of his posts, the energy company can claim that his neighbor has already "signed up" and so, since he is going to have to look at his neighbors windmills, he may as well go ahead and sign up too. A ploy that works just as the energy company would have it.

INCOME: They say they pay a nominal annual fee and then each windmill generates about $4,500 to $15,000 per year depending on how much electricity your windmill generates. And they are not required to even generate any electricity. If the market price of electricity goes down, they slow production, just like OPEC.

FINANCIAL FEASIBILITY AND PROJECT PROGRESS: I do not know how many land owners have "signed up". And I do not know how many windmills it will take to make the project financially feasible for the energy company. They may already have as many as they need and the project may be a "go". But I do know that they are contacting some land owners who are in the line of choice that have NOT signed up, like Mr. Tatom. It would be my feeble opinion that if enough land owners can focus on the long term affects to the entire area and not focus so much on dollar signs, that there are likely enough "holes" in the line to keep the project from being feasible and the energy company may just go away.

As for property values, well, what do you think? As a real estate appraiser and broker I would consider these things to be an "external obsolescence". Something similar to a large trash dump land fill project, or a HUGE power transmission line (except on poles TWICE as tall as a water tower) moving into an area. What effect does something like that normally have on property values?

Well, that is all I have time for now. For more information I have posted my entire article on my website at

WWW.NORTHTEXASPROPERTIES.COM

click on the button for Wind Farm Article. Or simply google up "Wind Farms".

Respectfully,
Jack Schoppa

Jack, I want to make certain that you have not misunderstood my post, or at least it's message.

Having lived next to this water tower, I am desensitized to it. I fully expect that we will get less for our house then we would if we were located elsewhere, when and if we ever sell.

Due to my own financial situation, I have no concerns about it.

Most of us have based our comments on not knowing all the specific details of this story.

My blanket statement would be that if, and only if, these windmills are inevitable, within sight of you property, then you will have the "scourge" of them regardless. If that is the case, you might want to make some money on it. As far as power generation equipment, most of it (and I stress "most") is not as enviromentally damaging as hydrocarbons.

I am pleased to hear that you have factual information about this topic as I only wish the best for Buzz and his family. I am also glad that you have information as to the true financial pay-offs of such wind mills.

I would like to ask, just out of curiosity, how did you find this site?

Sunil he found it from a neighbor of mine that is a friend and I'm trying to get to weigh in with his thoughts but he says he types to slow. Both are against it and I'm not sure I would agree with all of Jack's facts but most are right on. I knew their opinions before we started but I wanted a healthy debate so I welcome and listen to all comments.

Not sure where I'm at on it except feeling that it is inevitable. My concern is from a standpoint that if your going to be looking at them you might as well have the income. It would also be a possible answer to the future income problem to give future generations financial flexibility to keep it in the family.

Keep the comments coming and I would say Jack came by this site honestly.

Thanks, Buzz

"""""""""As a real estate appraiser and broker I would consider these things to be an "external obsolescence"""""""""".

Because you are a real estate appraiser, I'm certain that to consider it "external obsolescence", then you would know how important it is to go out an "prove it" beyond just saying "becasue I'm a real estate appraiser and broker and I say so". You must know that the TVA, in my region, will prove that powerlines and substations do not matter whatsoever. So be ready to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, because I can guarantee you the windmill companies have their own studies proving the contrary.

""""Something similar to a large trash dump land fill project, or a HUGE power transmission line (except on poles TWICE as tall as a water tower) moving into an area. """""

I don't see how an eco friendly windmill would be like a trash dump or a huge power transmission line, but I'm no expert on any of the above.

""""What effect does something like that normally have on property values? """"

The Tennesse Valley Authority will tell you none, and give you their supporting documentation. You'll need to do the same, to achieve any chance of success of resitance.

Buzz, I guess I just wanted to know if he was a friendly. Welcome, Jack.

This is a nice thread, and the topic is something which we may all have to deal with down the line.

I'd like to echo Sunil's welcome....Welcome Jack.

It is unusual, in my experience, for me to run across someone in real estate who is really trying to look at the big picture and not just possible short term monetary gains.

The long term value of that unique property as is should be considered in the equation. It may exceed any other consideration.

I think the plan serves for @ 180 wind generators over a 2-3 county space. One of the things I found interesting is based upon other projects the utility company has in operation those 180 towers will generate enough electricity to power 500,000 homes. From an alternative energy standpoint that is certainly one way to stick it in the Middle East's ear.

Which brings me to my next point. We all say how we are for alternative energy but then when someone starts putting it in our area we scream like stuck pigs. I'm certainly not preaching here because I'm finding I'm as much of a hippocrite as the next guy. Any thoughts?

Thanks, Buzz

Buzz,
Here is another line of thought. At some point in time when the wind farms become absolutely necessary to generate enough electricity for society, the right of eminent domain will come into play I'm sure. At that point they will put them where they want regarless of what we think or want. Just a thought.

Meadowlark, your key word is "may".

Apparently, it hasn't mattered to much in the last 200+ years. It "may" may or may not matter in the futre.

Given the fact that America's population has roughly tripled in size since WWII, and could triple again, in another 50-70 years, you could and probably are very well right. But today is today. We may all have giant windmills everywhere, and horses to for that matter, assuming Cecil and his "Peak Oil" cronies are right(I don't personally know, but don't really believe they are).

I'm certain that I do and will hate to see the urban and suburban sprawl, with carpetbaggers, Californians, northerners bringing in their high population regulations into the South and even Texas, which is a state that loves freedom, more than they have, but I'll be dead or dying by then, so I guess is won't be my problem.

What everyone must remember, that the principle of subdivision and growth is not new. It has been around since the original land grants.

As for the big picture, go ahead and take your local tax maps and look. Every single thing will be divided by a third in 50-70 years. There will be three times the subdivisions.

heybud, that is a great thought. I think you are dead on. The future is looking interestinger and interestinger. Thus my concern about generating income to keep ranch in family.

Quote:

From an alternative energy standpoint that is certainly one way to stick it in the Middle East's ear.

One has to remember that the United States gets most of its electricity needs from coal. Wind farms will help in that respect. If we all start driving electric cars, then our oil needs will be less.

As far as if to go ahead and let them put up one
of these monster windmills on your land or hope it's ends up somewhere else out of your view.
Just look a history, look what happen to the towns that didn't want (or ask too much) the rail road tacks (Interstate, ect.) near them, many became a Ghost Town. It's a catch 22; but just like in fishin' in life you got to let you pole bend & line drag and even go in or to the other side of the pond so not to lose you hook,line & sinker.

I live on 10 acres in as rural a part of Indiana as you can really get and my parents own another 35 next door. Much of it is wooded and me and my dad use it for recreation. Our land is on top of a good sized hill (for Indiana).

Nobody's gonna offer us any money to put windmills on our land, but I could see a cell company coming in and wanting to put up a tower. I wouldn't have one in my yard or out in the open pasture, but if they wanted 1/3 of an acre on the very top of the hill (which is wooded) and were willing to pay me for it I'd be all for it.

I don't know what they pay for that kind of thing, a couple hundred a year perhaps? If they were willing to guarantee that for 50 years I'd snatch it up. It's not the prettiest thing to look at, but I'd be making some money to help offset property taxes and providing a somewhat useful commodity. I've had to learn to live with alot of things that I don't like. None of them have paid me for the inconvenience.

Jack Schoppa here again. I see that I should have introduced myself a little better, but I needed to get on topic. But, I truly thank you for the welcome, I will try to be deserving.

Yes, one of Mr. Tatom's neighbors mentioned that I might want to check this forum out.

After scanning several of the posts it appeared as though there were some misconceptions of exactly what we were talking about, specifically the size and appearance of these things. They are NOT at all like power lines or oil wells. Also, and completely understandably, you guys could have no idea about the aesthetic appeal of this little "pocket" of dirt located just between the D/FW metromess and west Texas. THAT, in and of its self, IS the focal point of the entire issue.

Like you, Mr. Tatom, I too am a "hippocrit". Yes, alternative energy is GREAT, just not here. At least not now anyway. I can't help that. It has got to do with the land, not me. If I lived in Dallas I would think the same thing about this area. But, in my feeble opinion, and in this specific case, the value of the view, and for MILES around I might add, so far outweighs the value the windmill will ever produce that the notion does not even deserve consideration.

To respond to another point brought by another poster, who is also exactly correct, I desparately NEED hard facts to prove my opinion of land devaluation. I am trying. Here is what I have found so far:

1 - The wind energy company will ALWAYS claim there is no devaluation. And they will have some evidence of that.

2 - In some locations there likely is no devaluation.

3 - In some other locations there obviously ARE devaluations, getting one's hands on specific case studies is time consuming and expensive, but I am trying. I make this claim based on the research that I have done thus far, mostly on the internet, and, no, I do not have my hands on specific case studies at this point.

4 - In this specific location there is no data to be had because the windmills are not here yet, so we are working with a hypothetical condition. To compare data from other locations you would have to have similar physical, market and economic characteristics as THIS location, which is quite unique, which compounds the problem. Which is the reason that I use the comparison to a land fill and a power line (except on poles twice as tall as a water tower). Try to imagine a fan the size of a 747 whirling around on a small school bus sitting on top of a pole twice as tall as a water tower. Now try to imagine the scene if there are 180 of those things strung out over about 20 miles. Is there any possible way that could have anything but a negative affect on anyone except possibly the guy who has 10 or 15 of them?

Now, to speak to THAT issue. And, again, based only on 20 years of real estate and appraisal experience and cases I am familiar with that involve other forms of external obsolescence, I would have to argue that the long term devaluation of a property that actually had, say, one windmill on it would be so significant that the income from one wind mill at, say, $10,000 per year would never make up the difference in value lost, unless the property wasn't worth much to begin with. (oops. That is another thing you guys aren't familiar with, property values in this area. I don't really have time to get into all that except to say that they are pretty darn good right now and only getting better. I believe that Mr. Tatom may have commented in an early post that his property value had doubled or tripled in just the past few years. Is that correct? If not, then please accept my humble apology in advance. But I do believe Mr. Tatom would agree that property values are good and getting better.) Thus, the magic question, how many wind mills does it take to offset the, and I will give you this one, "possible" loss in property value? Here is my answer to that question: no number. Now I will attempt to qualify that answer. My feeble opinion, and BASED ON PRIOR YEARS LOCAL MARKET DATA, is that these property values will appreciate at a far faster rate over the next, say, 20 years WITHOUT the wind farm in the area than any number of windmills on a "typical" property could generate in income over the same period of time.

Now if you take that answer out to west Texas, or anywhere else for that matter, where market conditions and land values are completely different, it would likely not apply. But right HERE, in THIS particular location, I think it does. What do you think Mr. Tatom?

Ok. Sorry so long winded again. I will probably not check back into this forum, leave to you "homies". Just wanted to try to get everyone sort of on the same page as you provide advice to Mr. Tatom. If you really want to learn more for yourself I would recommend you take just a moment and check out the article on my website at

WWW.NORTHTEXASPROPERTIES.COM

and/or google up "Wind Farms". If you spend about three weeks doing that, you will be able to verify everything I have commented on. The article on my website will save you some time.

Thank you for allowing me into your forum. By the way, I need your expertise now, what can I do about those weeds in my pond? And the turtles, how to get rid of those darn things? Yeah, I got my .22 zeroed in so I can pop them boogers from my front porch, but I ain't always sittin' on my front porch. I been spendin' way too much time researchin' windmills to be popin' turtles.

Anyway, I do appreciate all of your time to read my posts, I hope it helped some, and I wish you all the best.

Private note to Mr. Tatom, stop by and see me some time. Well, actually, any of you can stop by and see me anytime you're in the the big town of Saint Jo, Texas. You'll be glad you came, well, unless we got big windmills all over the place then you will more than likely just drive on through.

Respectfully,
Poor Old Jack Schoppa

Those things are good looking. Looks like progress to me. They look futuristic, like something one would see in a science fiction movie or Star Wars or something. Do they make a lot of noise?

Quote by Mr. Tatom "One of the things I found interesting is based upon other projects the utility company has in operation those 180 towers will generate enough electricity to power 500,000 homes."

I would look closely at this information and verify it. 180 towers for 1/2 million homes. That is nearly 2800 homes per tower. Now does anyone really believe that one of these, even if the size of a small bus, will supply that many homes? Think about it.

Quote:

Do they make a lot of noise?

They are fairly quiet, Lincoln has two of them just North of the I-80, I drive by them frequently on the way to our pond. The current Windmills designs are however very efficient bird killers.

Shorty, tell us, are they unsightly in real life? I googled some phots and they aren't that bad.

They are not that bad, but they do look much BIGGER in person than they do in any of the photos I have seen. They can bee seen from quite a distance.

"Lincoln has two of them"

These are no doubt on Condello's land.

Burgermeister, I would agree that sounds difficult but they have several farms and have a pretty solid track record. I will try and verify though.

I will of course see some in person before making any kind of a decision.

Jack, I'm not sure that I would say our area is any more unique than any other area. I think your point of view is to try and prevent it from happening. My point of view at this point is if this is going to happen what are the "Tatoms" going to do. I think it is likely to happen. There is a part of me that says it is good for the country and that progress and the way the world is changing is going to make it unpreventable. If it is unpreventable then we are trying to figure out the best thing. I have talked to a number of people that think they are beautiful.

I've also seen pictures of rows and rows of them and I think that is ugly. If they are fairly spread out how do they look? I don't know. That is what I'm trying to figure out.

The few refernces say they are extremely quiet and that the newer versions are not a hindrance to birds.

I did a quick search on turbine specs. Most are 100 KiloWatts output at 22 kts. wind speed. The figures you stated would require that each unit put out 20 Megawatts or 200 times what one actually puts out. I think what was meant is that 180 FARMS of about 200 turbines would supply 500,000 people.

not trying to discourage you, just want the facts to be presented.

Schoppa here again. Quickly, I forgot to mention one very important thing.

And, thanks to Burgermeister above, you absolutely should question everything this company does. First, they require Confidentiality Agreement because they do not want news of their presence in an area known. Why do you think that is?

Ok, two things. But this was really the first thing. We have been in contact with an attorney who is representing some folks out in Abeline dealing with this same company (SAME energy company mind you) and he has been at this for almost a year out there. So, he has at least a year on the learning curve in dealing with this specific company. This attorney tells us that there is no "indemnification clause" (I may have misspelled that) in the lease agreements. That's right. If a landowner, in this case who has no windmills, files a suit against an INDIVIDUAL LAND OWNER, in this case who has windmills, and can, of course, PROVE damages in court, the energy company will NOT "indemnify" the individual land owner.

In other words, the individual land owner who chooses to place windmills on his property and causes PROVABLE damage to another may be sued INDIVIDUALLY and has NO recourse to the energy company.

I find that both interesting AND astonishing.

All I can say about that is ----

OOoopps!!!! There goes about 20 years of my income from my windmills......

Darn the luck....

That is straight from the attorney who has been dealing with this specific company for about a year. He sent me a copy of the actual lease agreement and I have it in my office.

Thanks again folks.

Poor Old Jack Schoppa

Burgermeister, there are different sizes of wind turbines. This one farm is too supply approximately 500,000 homes. If it gets on further down the road I will get someone to back that up.

Mr. Tatom,
Glad to see you so close.

So we gotta disagree about the uniqueness of our area. That is ok. I can't beleive it. But it is ok.

You sound like you have made your mind up that it is a done deal.

Let me ask you a couple of quick questions directly, hopefully you are still on the forum, if there is a 50-50 chance that it IS preventable would you rather HAVE say 180 of these things in the area or would you rather NOT have them?

What if it is a 20-80 chance? (20% we WILL and 80% we WON'T)

What if it is 80-20? (80% we WILL and 20% we WON'T)

I will hang around for few minutes and check back.

Poor Old Jack

Personally, I'd rather have a Transcontinental oil pipleline to Iraq. $\:D$

Ok. I gotta git. I guess you had to leave too, sir.

I am very happy to see that you will go see some up close and personal. Take a camera along and take some pictures.

Another good idea is to take a map along and mark on the map where you are when you can see them, take pictures from that distance and mark on the map where the windmills actually are and then you can get a real good idea of how far away you can see them and how big they look from varying distances.

And then, if you would, let me know what you think.

Respectfully,
Poor Old Jack

Mr. Tatom, yes there are turbines up to 200Kw. It is not just conjecture that 180 turbines cannot supply 1/2 million homes, and as per the Pond Boss Forum administrators, it is the obligation of people that know to point out these discrepencies. This is not a political stance, I would love to see more alternative energy sources. I plan on buying a hybrid car next year, but facts are facts.
I have also seen the props for the windmills off and on loaded at the port of Houston on railroad flat cars. They are huge. But not 20 megawatts huge.

I knew you couldn't stay away Jack. $;\)$
I will report back on what I find. On the probability question, no one in our family has made up our mind. We are listening to the situation. There are even differing opinions w/in the family at any given time.

As a person in my 40's with kids I have been trying to figure out how to preserve the ability of future generations to have flexibility to keep this place.

It is my opinion that if you don't generate income from it they will not have a very hard decision to make when it comes to ongoing income vs value of a one time sale.

We will continue to learn so we can make an informed decision.

I live in West Texas where windmills are abundant around Rankin, Mcamey, Sweetwater. They are putting more up everyday. I equate this to drilling offshore Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi. It's okay for these states to do it but God forbid Florida or the East or West coast have to drill off their coast. Everyone says lets put them in West Texas cause its ugly anyway. We are all gonna have to committ to altenative energy. We are gonna run out of oil and gas and sooner than we think. If you don't want them on your land then you should be prepared to pay the rising cost of energy, it's a comin'. If no one wants to sacrafice then so be it. I really don't mind looking at them and if a company was willing to pay me a good price for having them then bring them on. They will eventually be something that we all see on a daily basis anyway. They are no more anoying than billboards we look at and at least they provied some relief from oil and gas prices.

I've driven through the new Horse Hollow Wind farm between San Angelo & Abilene. I almost hate to admit it, but I thought they "looked" pretty cool. Now whether I would think that if they were on my property, or more importantly...my neighbors property, is another thing. I have traveled alot in West & Southwest Texas in the last few years and have seen quite a few wind farms. I never really saw any of them as being "eyesores". I don't know if it was the desolate land they tended to be on or the basic clean white look/design of them. It's getting harder and harder for people to make a living off the land and for next generations to hold onto family property. If wind energy is indeed the great alternative we have been looking for, then they will have to go "somewhere"....and chances are, "somewhere" will be where someone doesn't want them to be.

During a jaunt into south-central Wisconsin to look at another potential pond-property, as we motored with the broker between a couple of properties, we came by a wind farm of about a dozen towers. I had never seen it up close (let alone afar). They are awesome mega-structures. So is Sears Tower in Chicago. I wouldn't want to live where I would have to look at either one of them as long as I had a choice...MY choice.
-
So, what is going to happen to these wind farms if the U.S. re-establishes construction of more nuclear reactors? Is it possible nuclear power will become the hi volume electricity producer of choice? The US hit it's oil production peak in the 70's The mid-east is estimated to hit their peak within 30 years or less. How much coal is left and how long can we afford it's emission problems? Is natural gas the answer? What's left with the nuts to power the size of a society we will see in 2030? Is it nuclear, like it or not? And, if it is, will there really be any need for wind farms?

Maybe there will be an alternative soon. I have been following the progress of this company for several years. The empirical evidences for the excess energy is overwhelming. I have been an amateur physics buff for years. The early physicists always followed empirical experimental data. After quantum physics became so much theory above any laboratory experiment and became so entrenched into the curriculum's of physics departments, an unheard of departure from reality became the norm. Along comes Mills and brings back some unexplainable empirical data and the physics community can't stand it. They have fought the truth coming to the light with every bit of power they can muster.

http://www.blacklightpower.com/

http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/WSJ%201.9.06%20C3.pdf

They have these large wind mills in Somerset County where my pond is located. I can't see them from my property, but it is very "hilly" and mountainous terrain, so you'd have to be at the right angle.

The ones in Somerset County, PA. are not the massive grids of windmills; they are more sporadic. There may be a single line of them going along a small mountain range.

If they were to go up on your property, or adjacent to your property, Buzz, I don't think you'd walk out of your cabin everyday and curse the living sh#t out of them. You would eventually get used to it, and many times you would not even think about it when they are in plain site.

To me, it's seeming to boil down to two points:

A) If it is truly inevitable that they are going up in your area, you may as well make money from it.

B) Is it even possible to get a favorable legal deal from the wind power company?

Also, as a side note, Coal Burning Boilers represent the majority of fossil fuel for electricity in the USA. Natural Gas burning boilers are too expensive to be the mainstays for power companies with the price of natural gas. However, states like California have stupidly banned coal burning in their state. Very few boilers burn oil. Mostly, gas burners have the capacity to burn oil only so the boiler owner can tell the gas company to cram it if they try to stick it to them on gas pricing.

The first time I saw them was in New Mexico. They were/are huge. My impression was one of awe.

We have them in Iowa along the north part of I35. I have always looked on in awe as you ride parrallel to them for approx. 50 miles.

I am in the environmental circle (to a point) in that I will be placing a windmill structure and solar cells on my next house, to help offset energy usage. Just trying to do my part and its a better alternative to the environment than relying on gas/oil for the rest of our lives.

This is an interesting discussion on whether they are ugly or not, but nobody is talking about the obvious. Has anybody actually made the promised income from having them on there land?

I did a google search and found both praise and complaints. There's nothing to learn from the praise, it's all golden. But on the websites that are cautious or downright negative about wind energy, you'll find that they have a certain wind speed to operate. Too much is just as bad as not enough.

Before I allowed them to do anything on my land, I'd do some research first hand. For me that means getting in my truck and driving to some wind farms and nocking on some doors of the people living there. If they are happy with it, they will tell you, and the same is true is they are not.

This is one of those decisions that once you make it, there's no undoing it. Take off a few weekends and go on a road trip, and have fun with it.

Eddie

Hi guys, I'm Buzz's neighbor and also the one who told Jack about this site. Buzz was the one who turned me on to pond boss and this site and for that I am greatful. You guys have helped me alot with my pond management. A few questions in regards to these wind farms and their effect on our property. I bought my land with the goal of retirement,wildlife and pond management as the main focus.
1.What is the main reason for income? Any future prop. taxes could be paid for with a simple grass lease for cattle.If the land is Ag exempt and bought and paid for, what other income is needed to keep it in the family? Estate planning is important.
2.Buzz, would you have bought your place with these things on your property or on your neighbors property? Would you pay top dollar?
3.The reason our land has increased in value so rapidly is because it is unique (habitat and topography) and its location in regard to the DFW area. So I have to disagree when you say our area of North Texas is not unique.
4.Everyone is talking about one water tower, one billboard or "I drive by them every day". I have to ask at what distance? Remember we are talking about a farm, not one or two of these things and they are 400ft. tall! I can't help but think they would neg.impact the land in the area. And they would look huge at half mile. I can't imagine walking to the deer blind at dark thirty and looking at these things with all those flashing red lights.
5.I still do not understand how your land becomes less desirable if you don't get in at the beginning. Why not wait and see what goes on in the area before signing up. Remember this company is in bus. to make money. If their ROI is not good because they don't have enough land they will go down the road. The installation of these are heavily subsidized programs that may or may not need to make money.
6.Would the people who think their beautiful buy a retirement place right next to them?

Just some thoughts

Thanks again to everyone who keeps this site up and running

Guys look at this link for perspective and pictures.

http://www.aweo.org/ProblemWithWind.html

Madhatter, how long did it take for you to type this? Or did Madhatter better half type for you?

Here are my thoughts:
1. Neither you or I need the income to have our properties right now. Property taxes as long as they are ag exempt or wildlife exempt is a non issue for anyone in our state at this point.

The income that I do think going forward is important is the income vs the value of the land 20-30-40 years from now for our kids. Now maybe they have good enough jobs growing up that they can continue to afford having properties like ours and enjoying it. Or maybe they decide to be a teacher or some other profession that makes them happy but doesn't pay well. The land value going forward that many years will have to be supported by income for them to possibly pay different taxing at that time or to give them something to consider vs selling and producing the income off the value. At the end of our lives our property although very dear to all of us is still just an asset. If you have the choice of having a ranch that say is worth 10 million and produces no income versus selling the property taking the money and having income off 10 million that is a pretty easy decision. The estate issues I agree with to some point but it depends on the value of the land and the size of the rest of your estate as to whether that might work or not. Please don't think I'm stating that I'm Daddy Warbuck's.

2. I know that I would have bought the property if they were on my place and an income that I deemed worthwhile came with the property. As far as whether I would have bought it if it was on the property next to it? I don't know. In retrospect would I have bought the property w/o the mineral rights and the oil thing again? Yea, I would have but I can't honestly answer the wind turbine ubtil I get a better feel.

3. Jack misunderstood me earlier about the uniqueness comment. I do think our area is unique but no more unique than East Tx, Hill Country, West Tx or any of a # of places in many other states. They are unique in that we all have fallen in love with our own areas. I did not like the comment about the West Tx area being not unique because I think much of that land is beautiful too. The reason our land has increased in value so much is because of the demographics of the population and the supply-demand of recreational land. No different than many other parts of the country. Recreational land will continue to increase at a high rate of return.

4. As I have told you if our family is the decision on whether this goes in or not as a project you have no concerns. If however it is inevitable and we are going to have them in our area we would rather have income off of them and that income could potentially solve an income problem going forward for future generations.

5. For the answer on this you would have to talk to the company. I would suggest you talk to them.
You can tell them that you can't stand what they are doing but would like to hear their story. Just because we are talking to them means nothing. You know me well enough to know that I'm going to extract my pound of flesh out of them and certainly not carte blanche believe all that they are saying.

6. I don't know. We are going to see them in the next couple of weeks around Abilene. I'm struggling with it. Many people like them many people dont. I'm on a fact finding mission here and this is why I thought I would solicit opinions on this site because many share our interests and I respect opinions here.

Just a side note. We do not all agree on anything within the family at this point. Heated debates have ensued and most are undecided. I know at least one that would protest with you. The only difference would be at the end of the protest she would drive her big gas guzzling SUV into the garage on the ranch. Just kidding mom.

Sorry for the long windedness but I felt I needed to answer better what my(and only my)viewpoint is.

Thanks, Buzz

Enlightening article, ewest. Thanks.

I wondered when you were going to weigh in.

Thank you ewest. Does it state who aweo.org is or anything about author? I read through but could not tell.

Sunil I am not weighing in only provided some info. I believe in informed people making the best choice for themselves. Please don't assume this is my position. I have seen wind farms in Calif. and wanted all to see a pic of one and sizes. Those are in that link. I don't know anything about the site or people. They do have some interesting points on value and problems like flying chunks of ice and lights on all the time.I think at the end is some info on the people and sources.

I understand, ewest, I just meant giving some input. You know you are the "link" providing master (in addition to other things, of course).

I didn't mean to make it seem as if you were stating your own position. Bad choice of words on my part.

I would take the offer. My parents had a similar opportunity recently...my Pop was all for it, my Mother was against it for "fear" of what the neighbors might say. She won the battle, needless to say, the three kids are somewhat amazed at how a revenue stream like that was declined. You can help future generations of your family and if you ever sell, the buyer will look at the revenue as a positive.

I would consider them as a conversation piece, every time they rotate just say...there's a penny...there's a penny... $\:\)$

Sunil :

I knew what you meant $\:\)$ - no problem. I did not want others to misinterpret what you said.

Count me out. I am a skeptical person by nature. Any technology that needs that much subsidizing (whether it be wind, ethanol, hybrid cars or ???) raises my suspicion. This is not new technology and if it was going to work, it would be able to stand on its own by now. Add to that the liability issues (if what was posted about indemnification proves true), and my benefit-to-cost ratio just tipped the wrong way. If a company won't stand beside me in court to support their product, that is a product I want no part of. As a minimum, ask them about this issue and see what they say. Seems like a pretty good case if someone were to argue that you damaged the value or their property by allowing this tower to go up. Even if they didn't win in court, it would be a hollow victory after all the legal bills.

I don't consider myself a hypocrite as I would gladly sign up for a source of energy I believe is viable. I would gladly take their money to put radioactive waste far below my pond.

Buzz, some folks think oil pumps jacks are ugly - some don't.... $\:\)$

Their grandpa's likely made the right decision.

It just depends on who you are dealing with....
Your heirs may thank you..

Hey Buzz, to answer your question lets just say it took a while. Pump jacks and oil tank batteries are not to be confused with these things.We are having to deal with those in our area as well. On the right dirt I can grow trees to screen those out of site. I don't know of any trees that grow 400ft. You also can't typically see pump jacks from 20 miles away.

MADHATTER , I understand your position, but the way iI see it , it's not about aesthetics.

You are familiar with the the Barnett Shale natuural gss play in the Fort Worth Basin, I'm sure.

Fort Worth, in the interest of residents, are fighting operators over drill site spacing, and considering ordinance changes in place for the entire state of Texas.

The homeowners are complaining - the mineral royalty owners are dancing in the streets... $\:D$

George, it is about aesthetics ,that's why I bought retirement land in the country.If I wanted to look at huge man made structures I would have bought in Dallas. Funny you should mention Barnett Shale production, Buzz and I are both dealing with this issue without owning any mineral intrest. We are trying to make the best of a bad situation. To me these windmills are not the same as oil or gas wells.

Quote:

Originally posted by MADHATTER:
George, it is about aesthetics ,that's why I bought retirement land in the country.If I wanted to look at huge man made structures I would have bought in Dallas. Funny you should mention Barnett Shale production, Buzz and I are both dealing with this issue without owning any mineral intrest. We are trying to make the best of a bad situation. To me these windmills are not the same as oil or gas wells.

I appreciate your position - proper advise on any large finacial investment, recreational or otherwise, should be carefully considered.

Thanks ewest for the link. That one is a dandy. Lots of darn good information there. We found another good one recently, www.windcows.com . Try it out.

We had our first little group meeting the other day. 15 interested land owners showed up. Made good head way. Setting up a website of our own, scheduling a big community wide meeting for a month or so down the line.

Been good chatting with ya'll. And thanks for having me. Maybe I can come back one day and read up on what to do with my pond. Oh, by the way, we calls 'em TANKS here in TEXAS.

Poor Old Jack

I wouldn't not deter me. How's that for a blunt straight answer.

But, your issues seems not to be with the money (solved by ag exemption), view (if they might put them where you are going to see them anyway), or resale value. It seems to be what your future generations might do with the property. Talk to them. See where they stand on things.

I have a friend who has good size ranches in Colorado and his sons don't want any part of it and would rather sell it and buy a place on the Gulf.

Good luck.

Interesting article in the Chicago Trib...politics per usual. You need an acct to access, so I'm gonna use bandwidth and cut/paste it. I thought our "wind-farm players" would appreciate the input.

Quote:

FAA takes the wind out of wind farms
Critics blame politics after agency suspends projects in Midwest

By Michael Hawthorne
Tribune staff reporter
Published May 31, 2006

The federal government has stopped work on more than a dozen wind farms planned across the Midwest, saying research is needed on whether the giant turbines could interfere with military radar.

But backers of wind power say the action has little to do with national security. The real issue, they say, is a group of wealthy vacationers who think a proposed wind farm off the coast of Cape Cod in Massachusetts would spoil the view at their summer homes.

Opponents of the Cape Wind project include several influential members of Congress. Critics say their latest attempt to thwart the planting of 130 turbines in Nantucket Sound has led to a moratorium on new wind farms hundreds of miles away in Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota.

Federal officials declined to reveal how many stop-work orders have been sent out. But developers said that at least 15 wind farm proposals in the Midwest have been shut down by the Federal Aviation Administration since the start of the year.

The list of stalled projects includes one outside Bloomington, Ill., that would be the nation's largest source of wind energy, generating enough juice to power 120,000 homes in the Chicago area. The developer had planned to begin installing turbines this summer and start up the farm next year.

"This is a big, ugly political maneuver by a handful of people who are undermining America's energy security," said Michael Vickerman, executive director of RENEW Wisconsin, a non-profit group that promotes renewable power.

Vickerman and others said that despite the government's recent concern about proposed wind projects, it is allowing dozens of current wind farms to continue to operate within sight of radar systems.

The bureaucratic entanglements come as President Bush is encouraging the use of more wind power as a solution to the skyrocketing prices of oil and natural gas, and for environmental problems such as global warming. During a speech in Milwaukee three months ago, Bush said wind turbines eventually could provide 20 percent of the nation's energy needs.

Harnessing the wind is a clean and relatively inexpensive way to generate electricity without the troublesome byproducts of coal or nuclear power. But the vast collections of turbines--some of which are 40 stories tall--are derided by opponents as unreliable and unsightly.

Of the scores of projects proposed around the country, perhaps the most controversial has been Cape Wind. If approved, it will be the first offshore wind farm in the United States.

Most of the opposition focuses on the proposed location in a channel between Cape Cod and Martha's Vineyard, the bucolic Massachusetts vacation areas frequented by many high-profile celebrities, business executives and politicians.

Critics of Cape Wind include members of the Kennedy family, whose summer compound is on Cape Cod. Both U.S. Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) and his nephew, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., have said the turbines would spoil the ocean views, threaten the local tourist economy and endanger migratory birds.

The younger Kennedy, an environmental lawyer and activist who has supported wind power in other parts of the country, said putting a wind farm in Nantucket Sound would be akin to placing one in the Grand Canyon or Yellowstone National Park.

"This isn't the right location, for a number of reasons," Kennedy said.

Another opponent is U.S. Sen. John Warner (R-Va.), who has tried several times to block the Cape Wind project. In a 2002 letter to the Army Corps of Engineers, Warner included a handwritten note saying he often visits Cape Cod, which he called a "national treasure."

But the project continued to move forward until late last year, when Warner, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, slipped an amendment into a military spending bill. The one-sentence congressional order directs the Defense Department to study whether wind towers could mask the radar signals of small aircraft.

Since then, at the Defense Department's behest, the FAA has been blocking any new wind turbines within the scope of radar systems used by the military.

Warner's amendment also appears to have reversed the government's position on the Cape Wind proposal. Both the FAA and the Air Force had previously signed off on the project, which would be located within miles of a missile defense radar system.

"This has nothing to do with wind," said Michael Polsky, president and chief executive officer of Invenergy, a Chicago company with projects in Illinois and Wisconsin that have been blocked by the government. "It has everything to do with politics."

Warner's office did not return telephone calls seeking comment. A spokesman previously released a statement saying the Defense Department study "ensures that Congress will possess as much information as possible on wind farms' impact on military operations."
Opponents of the Cape Wind project say there are legitimate concerns about wind farms interfering with radar. They point to a study by the British Ministry of Defense that found the rotation of turbines could cause the signal of a small aircraft to disappear temporarily from radar.

Developers solved the problem by installing new software at the radar installation and realigning some towers, said Laurie Jodziewicz, a policy specialist for the American Wind Energy Association, an industry trade group. The British government later dropped its blanket opposition to proposed wind farms.

Still, U.S. officials said they need more information before allowing projects here to move forward.

"Until the potential effects can be quantified and possible mitigation techniques developed, it is prudent to temporarily postpone wind turbine construction in areas where the ability of these long-range radars that protect our country might be compromised," said Eileen Lainez, a Defense Department spokeswoman.

Nothing is expected to change until the department's study is completed. It is unclear when that will happen, Lainez said.

For companies trying to develop more alternative energy sources, the sudden change in government policy is another frustrating hurdle.

Horizon Wind Energy, the company building the proposed wind farm outside Bloomington, already has hired experts to ensure the 243 towers spread over 50 square miles wouldn't affect historic sites, endangered species or migratory bird flyways.

The company also has promised to arrange for subsidized cable service or other options if the towers interfere with local television reception. And it has vowed to repave roads after construction crews finish putting up the towers.

Based on the experience of other wind energy companies working in the Midwest, Horizon thought getting a federal permit would be the least of its worries.

"We're hoping an amicable solution can be figured out in the near future," said Michael Skelley, Horizon's chief development officer. "The solutions are there and they're available, but right now there's nothing we can do about it."

This sounds very similar to some proponents of the continued flooding across our borders by illegal aliens, until some move down the street or next door to them. $\:\($
Be known that I believe wind is not a viable energy option, but a nuclear generating plant in New England would be. There already are nuke subs based there.

Brettski, yep, politics as usual.

Everyone wants cheap energy as long as it is produced elsewhere.

(thought I would kinda revive this thread)...when I ran into this link in another forum: Wave Power . And this link about Portugal\'s wave power . And the U.S. is considering Oregon\'s potential

Pretty neat stuff Brett. 5 will get you 10 that none of the wave powered thangs will be deployed off Chappaquidduck. It will have the same aesthetic problems of wind turbines.

buzz--you may find the book "red clay, pink cadillacs, and white gold" of interest--it is about the kaolin industry and it's leases in middle georgia--granted the book is one sided but many good points in there--example you say after the towers are abandoned for "x" amount of time the land has to be restored--the same occured with some of the leases written about in this book but there were some legal ways around it. this is an interesting topic and you and others raised some good issues on both sides of this subject. a lot of things are necessary (dumps) and several may become necessary (wind turbines, etc) but the issue is tolerating them in your yard/neighborhood/area. IMHO it's sorta like the water tower mentioned before--- i think i could get used to one water tower/wind turbine maybe but looking at a whole series of them all the time would bother me (esp. at 2 to 3 times the size of a water tower).

VERY interesting. 3 types of generation using different wave types and ocean depths. Of course the one in Oregon will never fly. 'Study of the effect of electromagnetic waves on sea birds and marine life', will be a project killer. East coast, same way, probably Hawaii too. If the Gulf Coast had decent waves. No problem. IMO.