Pond Boss
Posted By: overtonfisheries One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 05:06 PM
Thought I'd post this pic of a very nice 10" Male Coppernose Bluegill. Fish like this are why we no longer deal hybrid bluegill!!


Posted By: BrianH Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 05:17 PM
I never saw the difference in coppenose and native until now. Is the bright copper just during spawn, just big males, just for pictures of what?
Nice fish
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 05:36 PM
Thanks, Todd. That's the best picture I've ever seen of one.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 06:25 PM
Wow.!! Those words from Bruce made my entire month!! The "Bluegill King" has spoken.

That's the best looking coppernose I've seen yet on the farm. We went through many 100s of potential proodstock recently...looking for guality phenotypes to use as broodstock.

I think the copper color comes on as males grow older and larger, not as a seasonal pattern. Some coppernose show up well and some don't.

One big problem we have, which I would like some help with, is picking out good coppernose females. The females don't show copper noses, so we usually pick them by looking for reddish/yellow coloration on their tails and other fins.

The best spawns we've had on the farm come from stocking medium bluegill in early spring. Spawns from stocking hand-picked adults have not been as successful, but probably due to problems associated with the famales. Either way, we throw the big bright male coppernose in brood ponds and hope they spread the genes.
Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 06:53 PM
Todd :

That is a nice fish. Bruce this link is the best pic of a male CNBG I have seen. I tried to post here but the site when copied will not let the pic be enlarged here. Take a look and tell me what you think. Colors , just as in regular BG, are more vivid during the spawn. Copper bars as well as color vary on male fish see second link below ,pics at the end of link. Todd if I find something worthwhile on your question I will post.

http://www.ag.auburn.edu/fish/image_gallery/details.php?image_id=1325






http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001433#000005







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Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 07:01 PM
Like Todd's, that fish is also showing it's "copper" really well. Am I detecting a little fin border shading? Between ewest's picture and Todd's description of female coppernose I was wondering if this is a universal coppernose characteristic. Keep in mind, that I've never seen one in person.
Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 07:33 PM
Bruce :

Not sure I understand the question. CNBG often when small have what I call peicil striping on the fins. That is a light colored edging on the fins and sometimes the tail. Some show it as adults some do not but is less noticable. See the second link above for several pics.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 08:41 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by overtonfisheries:
...we usually pick them by looking for reddish/yellow coloration on their tails and other fins.

Ewest, I was asking if fin coloration helps to distinguish coppernose bluegill from the ones we have here in Nebraska.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 08:48 PM
If you would like an example of what I mean by reddish/yellow coloration, I'll get a pick of another fish.

Well, I'm editing this post caus I went and looked at ewest's links and his fingerling bluegill show that yellow tinge on their tails. Plus the large cpnose on the Auburn site has that coloration. However, if you look at the strait bluegill on the Auburn site you won't see much if any yellow color on the tail and pectoral fins. Maybe we're on to something.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 08:53 PM
Excellent!
Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 09:12 PM
I think so. Also the large CNBG on the Auburn site has light fin and tail edges as well as coloration Todd describes as does Todd's CNBG.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 09:12 PM
Notice the red tail on these large bluegill, considered to be coppernose although they don't have considerable copper coloration.


Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 09:14 PM
Now here's a 2.5" coppernose with yellow color on tail and pectoral fins. Hope you can see it well.


Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 09:15 PM
Yes and the light edge to their tail and fins.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 09:18 PM
I never noticed those light fin and tail edges until just now. Bing...I see it.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 09:20 PM
These are more different from our bluegill than I thought. Their nose looks more elongated as well. The difference in coloration is really clear to me now. Very good.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 09:22 PM
Now....Ewest...what about females? I can pick out some fish for pics from the vats, some that I know are super coppernose strain and some that are questionable....but first I wish I had a textbook comparison of cpnose/native.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 09:24 PM
If I can learn 5 new things today then I'll have 2 beers tonight and maybe keep one thing intact.
Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 09:41 PM
Todd :

I am going as fast as I can -- working.

Coppernose bluegill have been around for a long time. They are only one of three recognized subspecies of bluegill (lepomis macrochirus). Coppernose (lepomis macrochirus purpurescens) is native to Peninsular of Florida. Coppernose bluegill have 12 soft rays on their anal fin as opposed to 11 soft rays found on the regular bluegill. Coppernose have fewer but wider vertical bars on their sides than do regular (common or native ) bluegill. Coppernose also have orange margins to their fins. Male coppernose has a broad copper band above the eye or forehead and are prominent during spawning season. Reproduction of the Coppernose is about the same as with most all bluegill.

More to come.

The Coppernose bluegill is known for its colorful markings. The fins of the coppernose have a reddish orange fringe outline with a pencil thin white border. The vertical bars on the sides are more distinct and broader especially in the young. The distinct copper band across the head which is brilliant on the male is the reason for the common name "coppernose".

THE COPPERNOSE BLUEGILL (CNBG) IS ALSO A FLORIDA STRAIN. IT IS EASILY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE NORTHERN BLUEGILL BY ITS COLORATION AND MARKINGS. THE FINS OF THE CNBG ARE REDDISH-ORANGE WITH A THIN WHITE MARGIN. THE TYPICAL VERTICAL BAR PATTERN OF THE BLUEGILL IS PRONOUNCED IN THE COPPERNOSE, AND VERY DISTINCTIVE. ADULT MALES HAVE A BROAD COPPER BAND ACROSS THE HEAD THAT IS THE TRADEMARK OF THE STRAIN.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/22/06 11:18 PM
Orange fin margins and 12 soft rays. That's good stuff. I'm going to learn one new thing this year at least. \:\)
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/23/06 01:08 AM
Great discussion about coppernose bgill. When you can see what appears to be a fairly pure strain of these fish, they look quite a bit different than regular northern bgill. I suspect that many coppernose that are sold by hatcheries are a diluted and mixed strain of coppernose. Good work Todd at trying to make the extra effort to maintain a pure strain of these neat fish.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/23/06 01:18 AM
Now compare to one of my common strain bluegill from my reproduction program.



No fin borders.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/23/06 01:19 AM
And a littler male, about 4.5-5 inches.


Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/23/06 01:21 AM
...and then the Grimes photo showing non-coppernose...



...and redears, of course, on the left.
Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/23/06 02:13 AM
Might as well add the others.








Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/23/06 02:37 AM
Really good thread thanks to Todd and Eric!
Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/23/06 03:01 AM
Finally got this to work -one good CNBG pic.



Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/23/06 04:34 AM
Fabulous photo! This is kind of exciting. Pond Boss at it's best. The quality of the picture is so good, but I can't quite see the twelvth soft ray. Eleven are easy to see, but I think number twelve must be a little guy.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/25/06 02:57 AM
I feel like the more I learn, the more there is to learn! Thanks for following up on this thread everyone. The pics are worth 1000 words, and the information provided by ewest is very helpful as well. Also thanks to George who provided me with some very nice specimens this year. I'm going to start counting soft rays on larger sunfish and I'll post interesting observations.

I'm still interested in identifying qualities of pure coppernose females.

Variation in phenotypic expression of bluegill is amazing. It's just the tip of the genetic iceberg that we can see, which leaves me in awe as I try to imagine the genetic pool under the surface.
Posted By: george Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/25/06 01:12 PM
Blue Gill have become such a major topic on this forum, and especially with the recent article in PB magazine, I have realized a new appreciation of BG.

I have taken them for granted previously, and considered them only as forage for predators, and still do, but now respect others view as an important sport and trophy fish.

Thanks to Bill Cody, early on for assistance in BG ID, and more recently involvement with Todd Overton’s approach to preserving “pure” CNBG genetics, a new appreciation has developed.

I confess I am guilty for taking them for granted since we routinely catch 8-10 inch CNBG.
I have absolutely no interest n attempting to grow a “record” BG, but have the greatest respect for those that have that goal.

The most fun I have is teaching a youngster, (or older in some cases) to fly fish for BG.
I make it easy – in front of the feeder with pellet flies….. \:D

But in the final analysis, they remain the backbone forage fish for our ponds.

I agree with Todd – when you can grow BG this size and aggressive, why would HBG be an option?

George Glazener
N/E. Texas
Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/25/06 02:05 PM
George :

I like to take my fly gear and catch large BG and RES (RES with a slow sinking fly) when it starts to warm in the spring. \:\) \:D

Most pond mgt. manuals give the reasons or should I say the very limited situations where HBG are a good choice. Here is one link.

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1893.htm

We don't have that situation yet so we don't use them. While I often caution folks on the matter they can be the right tool in the proper circumstance. One thing every study and report on the matter I have seen states is that HBG are more aggressive than BG and some say more than either parental species. That IMO is the hybrid vigor part of HBG and the assertions of size/growth rate is much overstated.

Todd I am still looking for your requested info.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: One Nice Coppernose - 03/25/06 06:50 PM
I very rarely see a situation where I would recommend stocking HBGL. In one case recently I recommended some for a flyfishing enthusiast along with some HSBs as population control. He followed my advise, but later attended a pond management seminar hosted by an A&M extension fisheries specialist. There he learned NOT to stock HBGL because of their tendency to revert back to greens.

He paid me a visit and was somewhat uneasy and irritated that I recommended stocking HBGL. I think I eased his tension, but I'll avoid those bullets in the future by simply not offering HBGL.
Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 11/20/06 02:21 AM
The following is added to this thread for archive purposes.

Bill here is some info from observation from the aquarium I once kept (may do it again). I will keep an eye out for photo evidence and in time can produce a pic from my fish.

There seems to be 2 types/variations of CNBG. One One from its original range (Fla area) and one from Ark. where many hatcheries grow lots of CNBG. The Fla. type are more colorful (lighter with more white/light pencil fin and tail margins and some orange pic 1 below) and the Ark. type (darker, more orange ,less light fin edges and less color ranges pic 2 & 3 below). The Fla types I have watched (most but not all) in the aquarium from 2 in up have had white/light fin edges.










This is from Todd. While not as bright as many you can see the light edge on the tail.

Now here's a 2.5" coppernose with yellow color on tail and pectoral fins. Hope you can see it well. I never noticed those light fin and tail edges until just now. Bing...I see it.




See also http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003546;p=1


Secondary evidence the following are written by fisheries scientists one Tex one Miss. and they note the traits ,then provide that the copper bar is only in adult males. I would assume based on their training if all the other traits mentioned were in adults only they would have so stated.

The Coppernose bluegill is known for its colorful markings. The fins of the coppernose have a reddish orange fringe outline with a pencil thin white border. The vertical bars on the sides are more distinct and broader especially in the young. The distinct copper band across the head which is brilliant on the male is the reason for the common name "coppernose".

THE COPPERNOSE BLUEGILL (CNBG) IS ALSO A FLORIDA STRAIN. IT IS EASILY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE NORTHERN BLUEGILL BY ITS COLORATION AND MARKINGS. THE FINS OF THE CNBG ARE REDDISH-ORANGE WITH A THIN WHITE MARGIN. THE TYPICAL VERTICAL BAR PATTERN OF THE BLUEGILL IS PRONOUNCED IN THE COPPERNOSE, AND VERY DISTINCTIVE. ADULT MALES HAVE A BROAD COPPER BAND ACROSS THE HEAD THAT IS THE TRADEMARK OF THE STRAIN.
Posted By: Robinson Re: One Nice Coppernose - 11/20/06 06:27 PM
Are there any disadvantages to CNBG over regular BG?
Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 11/20/06 08:58 PM
Like Fla. LMB , CNBG being a Fla. BG sub-species, do not do well in cold climates. My guess is the farther you get north of about the Tenn/Ky state line extended the less likely CNBG will meet their genetic potential. To much north of there (like mid Ohio to mid Wisc.) they may not over-winter at all, as in die.
Posted By: Robinson Re: One Nice Coppernose - 11/20/06 09:12 PM
Thanks, ewest.
Posted By: Svoberts Re: One Nice Coppernose - 11/20/06 10:29 PM
I have BG envy \:\(
Posted By: george1 Re: One Nice Coppernose - 07/04/07 09:07 PM
Here’s a photo of a nice 10 inch CNBG caught this morning.
Don’t think it’s pure Florida genetics, looks more Arkansas strain?

Could it be F1 x of first stocked pure Florida trait CNBG x native BG, stocked by grandkids?

Appears to have the correct fin coloration for Florida but not body color?

July 4th CNBG


Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 07/04/07 09:13 PM
George nice fish . I like that hat also. \:\)

That could be a Fla. just dark because it is agitated .
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: One Nice Coppernose - 07/04/07 09:20 PM
George,

Nice hat and nicer fish.

Can you be more specific why this fish looks like Arkansas genetics? I'm trying to learn a little here. I've only caught coppernose at Lusk's place, and if I saw this fish I would have just thought "Beautiful coppernose" and wouldn't have seen anything to require further analysis.
Posted By: george1 Re: One Nice Coppernose - 07/04/07 09:28 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Condello:
George,

Nice hat and nicer fish.

Can you be more specific why this fish looks like Arkansas genetics? I'm trying to learn a little here. I've only caught coppernose at Lusk's place, and if I saw this fish I would have just thought "Beautiful coppernose" and wouldn't have seen anything to require further analysis.
Thanks for the compliments guys - hope Dr. Dave sees the post.

I thought more Arkansas because of darker color.
I had a couple of "for certain" Florida trait CNBG and a couple of (?) Arkansas trait CNBG in darkened live well.
The 2 Floridas remained light coloration, whereas the (?) Arkansas remained dark color.
All were very agitated... \:D
Posted By: george1 Re: One Nice Coppernose - 07/04/07 11:52 PM
This thread focuses on the difference between regular BG and CNBG, not the difference between Arkansas strain and Florida strain.

The photos below shows the distinct difference of CNBG traits in our pond.




Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 07/05/07 12:07 AM
George the CNBG Ark - Fla variation is discussed in several threads. Look at these. It is also in this thread ( Nov. 19 post).


http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003546;p=1

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000009;p=4
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: One Nice Coppernose - 07/05/07 02:15 AM
George,
Regarding the two fish in your July 4th 7:52pm post - Top or 1st one is a male CNBG. I find it interesting that on the male CNBG that the dark scale tipping extends down onto the gill cover.
And 2nd one (7:52pm) appears to me to be a female regular? BG or female CNBG; if that is a male fish I am fooled. On the female note the lack of dark tipped nape scales, lack of a square opercle flap (unless the lower margin is folded), and a swollen belly probably full of eggs. The urogenital pore in the photo appears to me to be swollen or enlarged - also a feature of a female BG in spawning condition. Both are real dandy fish. The female BG is a close "mate" to the 3rd BG -a male faded "Todd" CNBG BG- in the July 4th 8:45pm post; note its wide squarish opercle flap. The dark tipped nape scales are present but not real pronounced. This male also does not have the pronounced regular dark male colors. When was he caught? Recent or previous? His colors are not a lot different than the big female in upper 7:52pm photo. Is the water a little murky (not clear) in the pond where they live? I think you may have some fish with "diluted" CNBG genetics.


You grow some mighty fine bluegills. It has to be great fun catching those on a fly rod.
Posted By: MRHELLO Re: One Nice Coppernose - 01/19/11 09:48 PM
I sure would like some of these in one of my ponds. I do not think many of them if any would survive but I may just take a chance this spring and put a few in say 25-50 just to see if they make it and reproduce.

Any suggestions?
Posted By: Dave Willis Re: One Nice Coppernose - 01/19/11 11:47 PM
You bet, George!! Nice cap. Oh, and dandy fish, too. Got to catch my first coppernose bluegills when I was fortunate enough to go to Richmond Mill with Bruce and Bob. My, what a treat. They are just gorgeous fish I may have to move south just for coppernose bluegills. smile

Interesting how the old threads can be just as much fun when we see them again!
Posted By: george1 Re: One Nice Coppernose - 01/20/11 12:58 AM
Originally Posted By: Dave Willis
You bet, George!! Nice cap. Oh, and dandy fish, too. Got to catch my first coppernose bluegills when I was fortunate enough to go to Richmond Mill with Bruce and Bob. My, what a treat. They are just gorgeous fish I may have to move south just for coppernose bluegills. smile

Interesting how the old threads can be just as much fun when we see them again!

Thanks Dr. Dave - I enjoy the old threads as well - a lot of water under the bridge and knowledge gained!
Richland Mill has raised the bar pretty high for CNBG.

Yeah - nice cap - my favorite .... cool


Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 01/20/11 02:11 AM
One of my favorite threads, grin

Here is one of George's grandbaby CNBG at appx 1 yr





BTW - nice hat !!!

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Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: One Nice Coppernose - 01/20/11 10:20 AM
Hey George, nice fish. Agitated Huh? Yeah, I expect they were.
Posted By: george1 Re: One Nice Coppernose - 01/20/11 12:18 PM
Originally Posted By: ewest
One of my favorite threads, grin

Here is one of George's grandbaby CNBG at appx 1 yr




BTW - nice hat !!!

Beautiful fish Eric!
Definitely a family resemblance - kinfolks .... grin
Posted By: Clayton Re: One Nice Coppernose - 01/20/11 09:36 PM
This thread really makes me want to stock a lot of mature CNBG and force the GSF out of business in my pond.
Posted By: ewest Re: One Nice Coppernose - 04/05/12 12:17 AM
George' CNBG

Mrs. G's CNBG below.
Colors more vivid and colorful than photo.


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