Email me and I'll send you a pic of one out of the pond. Not sure how to post it here and I'm too lazy to try it.

jjbaird@ligtel.com

Git off your butt and post it for us!

Nah email me. :p I need to get back to work. I have a steelhead and four largemouths to paint.

Seriously if I get some time I will see if I can do it, but I just don't have the time right now.

Git off your butt?

Cecil, Bob didn't say "Get off you butt"
He said "GIT off" .. southern slang.
It's cool when we're good enough friends to poke each other like that!

I'd like to see it!

Cecil, nice fish! I thought I'd do you the favor of posting the image so everyone could see.

Ohhh, brookies are cool, aren't they?

Cecil, who's holding the fish??

Geeeesh!!

Thanks for posting the fish tritonvit! My parents who live on my property had friends visiting and this is one of them. Her name is Inge and she's German like my mother. She likes to fish and I sent her out to the pond. Lots of hooping and hollering.

Fish in real life was a deeper orange not sure why the pic didn't duplicate it. It was 4 lbs. 4 1/2 oz. and 19 inches on a board. Biggest so far is 5 lbs. 10 1/2 oz. and 21 1/2 inches. I'm shipping that bigger one out Monday to New York and got $80.00 for it including shipping. The guy makes fish replicas and will be molding it. I didn't get a good pic of that one. Hope to have more pics later when we seriously go to harvest them by hook and line. Lots of volunteers!

Cecil,
You certainly know how to grow beautiful trout! Somehow I didn't believe they could be raised in captivity & have all the great coloration of wild fish since all the stock brooks I've seen didn't. Aparently you know your stuff! Congrats! I wouldn't have believed it came from a back yard!

Dave, Cecil said it was a friend of his parents holding the fish.

How old was that BT from fry to harvest?

Hey Readers, The real amazing thing is the size of the small pond that this fish was raised in; not much bigger than four car garage.

Cecil are you getting my emails?

Bruce this is a 4 year old fish. Got him at about 6 to 8 inches on Halloween 2003 as a two year old with 150 others. Interestingly the fish was behind in growth at that age due to the 48 degree water year around that they were being raised in a raceway at the hatchery in northern Wisconin (Bayfield) on Lake Superior. I had brooks from a source previously from a source in Virgina (warmer water) that were already 10 inches at age 1. By age 2 I had one that was 18 + and almost 4 pounds. Most of those age 2 fish were about 2.5 lbs. However the fish from that source seemed to be done for at age 3. Typical domesticated eastern brook trout only live 3 or 4 years.

This fish is a Lake Nipigon strain Canadian brook trout with the brood stock originally netted off shoals on Lake Nipigon back in the 70's. For those of you that don't know that is a 90 mile long lake north of Lake Superior. The world record brook trout of 14 lbs was of this strain from the Nipigon River. I had a Lake Nipigon strain expert from Canada tell me they should live 6 to 8 years or more and I could grow ten pounders if I keep them long enough. I'm hoping for 6 to 7 pounders next fall!

I got these fish from the Red Cliff tribal hatchery north of Bayfield. Price was only 60 cents a piece! I gave them a dollar as I said they weren't charging enough. The following year they raised the price to $2.00! A friend that was going to get some from them said, "
Gee thanks Cecil! Way to go!"

The Indians are planting these in Lake Superior to bring back the coasters. However technically they are not coasters.

Are you sorry you asked?

Bill,

I just emailed you. Sorry for the delay. I will call you soon.

Yep pond is 88 by 59 feet max depth 9 feet. Has up to 120 brook trout up to over 5 lbs in it right now. However you'll never see them until they come up to feed just before dark. They will only feed once per day too. Not sure why.

Not sorry I asked...just happy for you. And a little jealous.

Actually a lot jealous.

You shouldn't be. Your bluegills are incredible! I hope I get mine somewhere near that size.

BTW I got to do some more work on your bluegills. I'm getting closer to completing them.

Norm Kopecky (PB forum member and frequent poster) came and fished one of my ponds yesterday. He caught my best fish ever for future potential! It was an age-2 bluegill that was approx. 9 3/8 inches and one pound. It was a male with almost no development of secondary sexual characteristics. I think he was happy.

Wow that is incredible for only 2 years of age. I know biologists that wouldn't believe you but I do.

Think you're the only one that is doing selective breeding on bluegills Bruce? I don't know anyone else that is. Most growers just grow them out and seine them up with no selective breeding.

Bruce, could you elaborate a bit on your selective breeding techniques for bluegills that Cecil mentioned? I'm really interested in these types of projects.

Cecil, I just did some simple calculations and it looks like you've got over 1000+ pounds of fish/acre in your Brooke pond. That's amazing! Is this pond continously fed by a well or flowing stream?

Tritonvt,

Actually I would say it is much more. With the few fish sampled, fish are running from about 3.75 lbs. to the biggest so far at 5 lbs. 10 oz. if you averaged those two and multiplied by 120 fish you get about 562.2 lbs. Pond is 1/10th acre so that is about 5,622 lbs. per acre. I would guess there has been some mortality as I have found about a half a dozen this year so there are probably less fish than 120. Some dead fish never float up especially trout according to a trout farmer I know.

I run about 38 gpms of well water into the pond which would come out to 14.79 lbs per gallon. I think the extensive Chara actually allows for extended carrying capacity due to the high surface area for nitrification. It also adds oxygen in the daytime, and there seems to be enough flow and aeration at night to keep oxygen levels high enough.

I've see a guide that recommends about 12.5 lbs. per gallon in my situation of an earthen pond.

Astounding BG, Bruce!

You set the bar high.

P.S. Wonderful trout, Cecil. But I'm not trying to grow big trout, so I don't hate you (just Bruce ).

Just keep in mind all....

Age-2 in mid-September represents nearly three years of growth (more accurately three full growing seasons). I actually think I've sampled this fish before. I think his size progression was as follows:

Spawned May 2003
Size Sept. 16,2003 Approximately 3.5 inches
Size Sept. 16,2004 Approximately 7.5 inches
Size Sept. 16,2005 9.375 inches and 1 pound

This fish came from my first spawn involving all superior quality feed trained bluegill. It will definitely be a brood fish next year!!!

Also, Norm and I caught some age-1 fish that were 7-7.5 inches. They looked great, and were also lacking any evidence of sexual maturity.

Norm caught this fish out of a pond that had no fish at all in it before 2003 so it's pretty much a lock as to what year class it is. Ask Norm when he posts again--it looked like a baby with a big jiggly belly.

tritonvt check the following thread. http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001816

2 words Very Nice.

CB1 & Bruce :

You guys continue to amaze. You seem to grow both beautiful fish and have very good records/info on thier history. That ,I am sure ,not only helps your work but helps others here with their ponds. Thanks for sharing . Buy the way a 4+ lb. BT and a 1lb BG are superior results and are not common in the over all pond scene. ewest

PS-- Bruce I have never seen a BG with a " big jiggly belly" . I expect corroboration from Norm.

Ah but Ewest, According to my DNR it's easy to grow big fish -- all you have to do is feed them. That's why none of my record fish can be entered as state records. Funny thing is I don't even know of any fish farms or other ponds that feed with fish this big.

Conversely my DNR produced a pond management manual that said feeding bluegills to get better growth "is a waste of time."

BTW, this brook trout and numerous others are more "unofficial state records" along with my 2 lb. 13 oz. yellow perch which was the 3rd biggest yellow perch ever recorded in the U.S.

"Yep pond is 88 by 59 feet max depth 9 feet. Has up to 120 brook trout up to over 5 lbs in it right now."

Nice fish and bigger ones to follow. Congratulations Cecil!!

When are we going to be able to purchase some monster: B C's B G's to add some monster genes to our ponds? LOL Kind of like ray scott's LMB
P.S. congrats on the monster trout

Bruce, you think I was happy? How about overjoyed! Not just by the fish but especially by your hospitality! It's not just with fish that Bruce has done so much but with his whole property. He really is someone that cares for his land.

Now back to his fish. They really are amassing. They're huge and really haven't started to fill out yet. That 2-year old fish has so much room to fill out yet. Think of a teenager that is all arms and legs and 6'4" already. When these fish start to fill out, they really will be monsters!

Bruce is doing everything right to produce a strain of bluegill that deserve a special designation. The Condello strain of bluegill really is happening! This is for real. Hopefully, thanks to ewest, we will have a good discussion about fish genetics and what goes into producing a monster strain of fish. In the mean time, stay tuned because for people that like bluegill, this is going to be a fascinating story.

See you next week Bruce!

Norm has coined a new word: Amazing + Massive = Amassing. It seems appropriate.

I'm honestly not trying to hijack Cecil's thread but last night I went back to the pond (Norm couldn't make it) armed with a camera and a gram scale. I fished for almost two hours without a bite until right before pitch dark and I finally got one. The bluegill was an apparent twin to the one Norm caught. It was 9 1/4 inches and weighed 425 g. The photo was on film so I'll have to get it processed in the next few days and try to post it....unless Norm catches a bigger one.

Theo, you're right, there does seem to be some irony here. I'll take it!

Giant brookie! Huge, power plant, mutant, nuclear fallout brookie.

LBuck,

Who's know? Maybe I'm sitting on an old landfill or nuclear waste dump?

I guess that would explain the bright colors?

My dad swears the farm that was here before me was a pig farm as according to him the soil smells like pig manure when it gets wet. However the local elderly resident across the highway says no.

Bruce you can chime in on my posts anytime. Not a problem whatsoever.

Seeing, how Cecil doesn't mind:

Bruce, a 235 mm (9 1/4 inch) bluegill weighing 425 g has a relative weight of 138. It doesn't get much better than that!

Dave,

Wouldn't that be comparable to the famed Pelican Lake (NE) bluegills? They're reminding me of the pictures I've seen including a 1 kg. specimen caught about five years ago.

Believe it or not I don't have any recent Wr tables. Can you post a link to them? Do you know what Cecil's BT Wr is?

Bruce, YES -- you are duplicating the famed Pelican Lake bluegills, which we often have measured at Wr values of 130 to 140. Pretty cool that you can replicate that, eh?? I was with Gabelhouse there when he caught one that was 10 15/16 inches long. His "guys" (the biologists) would NOT let him claim that he caught an 11 incher. Can't remember what it weighed, but think it was like 1 3/4 pounds.

As for recent tables of the standards for weight at length, I usually do all those by calculator or by computer program. We have mathematical equations specific to each fish species.

Here's my best "quick" idea to get you some of the information. Go to our departmental web page.

http://wfs.sdstate.edu/wfsdept/courses/WL%20412/Spring%202005.htm

Scroll down that page until you come to "Mar 14-16 Condition Indices." Click on "Mar 14-16" and you'll find the handout that I used for my fisheries management class last spring. It has all those pesky equations, but the final four pages are the standards for black crappie, bluegill, northern pike, and largemouth bass in table format. Those should get you started. If you need tables for other species, let me know. I have tables for quite a few fish, but not all. I can e-mail you other tables you might want.

I did calculate the Wr values for Cecil's two brookies. After all, we better get this thread back to him, eh? I don't know how reliable the standard weight equation is for large brookies. However, his 19 incher (pictured) has a Wr of 140, while the 21.5 incher has a Wr of 126. :-)

Dave , Bruce and CB1 :

I have a question on RW concepts of growth. I use RW for info and mgt. and keep up with them. I have read several studies on trophy LMB which indicate that many times the largest fish have a much faster growth rate than the rest of their year class. With this in mind does age need to be factored into the RW scale to give us a complete picture. For example Bruce's BG are not only well above RW (the RW scale under a common sense approach assumes that a certain length is reached at a certain age) they are there way early. Is there a factor or scale for this --BC's BG are 40% over but when compared to normal 2 yr. old + BG they may be 80% over on a national scale and 125% over on a Neb. area scale for same age BG . ewest

Good question/comment ewest! Dang, folks are good on this forum. :-)

I hope everyone else comments as well. I've got two thoughts to add to the discussion.

First, trophy fish indeed are often very unique. It's probably a combination the right genetics and the right setting.

Second, the fisheries profession is just starting to get some "relative growth" standards. So far, there are summaries for walleye, crappies, and channel catfish. It's slower to gain acceptance because growth rates can vary so much from north to south (growing season), while conditions factors did not. High Wr in the nothern states often (not always) means fast growth BY THE STANDARDS OF THAT REGION. The fish in question might actually be growing a lot more slowly than a southern population at a similar Wr.

Dave,

I think the regional aspect is very important. What may be phenominal growth in one area may be closer to the norm in another. Also BG life span may be considerably different from region to region. My experience in East Texas is that we have BG growth rates higher than other northern regions, but our BG do not seem to live as long and hence do not often reach the 2 to 3 pound mark...but 10 inch BG are not unusual at all in my ponds.

ML :

Our BG are not 10in. and 1 lb. at 2.5 years they are more like 8in. and .75lbs. It takes another half year to get to that size. Do yours get that big that fast. Ours are not subject to extensive art. feeding though. To look at this from a little different point of view consider growth and life expct.(LE) together. That is at a certain % of LE (or age) how big are the BG at RW. That was what I was asking Dave et al. A very interesting topic. I think this would apply to other species as well. ewest

EWEST,

I must confess that I do not know how to "age" BG, but believe yes, some do reach 10 inches in 2 years in my ponds, two full growing seasons. I posted a picture of one sometime back and Bruce said he believed it was a 2 year old fish. I do use high protein feed (42%) and feel that certainly contributes to the rapid growth rates.

How do you "age" BG or LMB for example?

Once again a reminder...

If I say age-2 it means the fish is in it's third growing season. My big 9+ inchers (age-2) are well over half way through their third growing season. In any region you're lucky if the first growing season (age-0) yields a fish over 4 inches or so.

ML, I know the age of my fish because they have their own pond starting age-1, but most wild fish have to be identified by analysis of scale annuli or otoliths. I believe that the further south you are, the more difficult it becomes to analyze growth by scale samples. I've gotten pretty good at analyzing approximate age of fish by looking at the overall appearance, especially the size of the head and eyes as they relate to the size of the body. Not accurate every time, but a good way to make broad generalizations.

ML & Bruce :

ML -- Bruce provided the answer to age determination - based on year rings on scales or observation (not as good at that as BC) or knowing age of birth + time in pond when all the same age (working with and looking at a lot of BG with known age).

Bruce -- I know the BG are 2 1/2 +- that is why I compared to 2.5 yr. old BG here. I am comparing to norms not genetic picked BG. Yours are genetic picked (selectively breed by you) and ML's are to buy his hatchery , I think. ewest

Wr's have inherent limitations and are really just meant to be a tool (one of many) with which to help make decisions.

Cecils incredible brook trout's Wr of 140 might have a different value designation if there were Lake Nipigon strain Wr's.

EWEST,

Just to finish off my comment that 2 year old 10 inch BG are not at all unusual in my ponds....here is the link of a BG picture I posted recently. I'm relatively confident this is a 2 year old CNBG...and it is typical, not unusual. Out of maybe every 10 or 15 BG caught, one will be like this or larger. In the spring, during certain times, I have caught them just like this cast after cast. Lots of fun on a 5 wt fly rod.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001858

ML's BG is typical for our pond.
One pound, 10 inch BG are very common - 1.25 pounds, 10 1/2 inches is largest weighed and measured.
They are fast becoming my favorite, next to a HSB on a flyrod...
George Glazener

Everything's bigger in Texas, right?

You're spoiled, I tell ya!!

Bruce, I'm really not........

I took BG for granted until I realized they are more than just "forage".

Thanks to your and Cecil's comments, I have a new appreciation for them...