Received my management report from south east pond today.I was shocked at what was in the report.First i might say for a lake that we have such a hard time catching bass out of they sure can get them with there shocking boat.All this time i thought he would say we were low on bass and heavy on the bream.Guess what,we are heavy on the bass and barely ok on the bream.I might add you can catch a bream in this lake every 20 seconds on any given day.In fact they want us to add 3,000 3-5 inch bream this fall and start removing all bass under 15 inches.Now for the lime part,i've added lime every year and always got pretty green water.Now i find out my alk. reading is 6.8,not sure how i was getting a bloom but i do.Any way i should say it was the best $$ i probably spent getting a pro to come out and look at the pond.

Pat,

Not sure if you have been following the many posts on here in which several of us have described the problems with the catchability of LMB in small ponds practicing catch and release( especially the older larger LMB).

Others have said we were simply bad fishermen and/or poor pond managers or whatever, even said that larger bass bite lures as well as smaller immature bass in ponds with c&r.

Most of those who agree that LMB do develop catchability problems in that environment,i.e small pond c&r, also believe that genetics and fishing pressure also play a large role in that conditioning problem. I have even asserted that artificial feeding may be a factor, especially when applied to satiation of all fish in the pond.

Would you please describe your LMB genetics, approximate fishing pressure and whether or not you are artificially feeding. Not that one case solves a mystery but it is more data. Thanks.

p.s. your report is no surprise at all to those of us who have experienced the closed mouth LMB.

Ok, I feel lucky, Saturday fished for two hours right at day break. Caught 16 bass 10 were under 14" they came out. 3 were 1 to 2 pounds, two in three pound range and one over 4 pounds. Had one that I could see the body and swirl but broke my line on a ultra light that had a big green fly that floats on the top of water I was fishing on the moss in 3 to 4 foot of water. I know they feed on big dragon flys in this area. The moss is so bad you have to row in and find pockets of water to cast in. I use to feed from feeder last year but not this one. I wanted to put more talapia in but Todd ran out and I could only buy 10 pounds. I am now thinking that because I pull every thing out under 14" they cant get lock jaw. The bigger ones go back, but mabey I have enough to always catch at least one over 4 pounds. I would like to catch one over 10 pounds but, not there yet. I think I need to stock some new blood lines this fall. My point is, I always catch fish, mabey not big fish, but I know some are there. I am happy to catch any thing that bends my rod, it beats being in the city any day of the week. I know I can put one of my son's freinds in the boat and he or she can catch some thing, and have the biggest smile and fish stories to tell.

Pat :

Glad you got your report and posted about it. Did they include in the report the effect of adding the new part of the pond to the total picture? It does not suprise me that it reflects bass heavy. Did you watch the electroshock survey? If you did tell us what you saw. Did the report have lengths and weights or RW for the bass and BG? If you have questions about the report call and talk to the person who was on site. If you want there are plenty of people on the forum who can answer questions about reports. If your bass population requires you to add forage fish every year is that ok with you? There are different methods {timing, types and sizes of fish}used to adjust a forage base.

I question the alka. reading . Do you currently have a bloom and are you activly fert. If so and the alka. is that low your fert. program would not work. Could it be a typo. and be 16.8 or 26.8. Did they tell you to add lime in the report? Even pros, like doctors, make a mistake now and then. If it were a doctor and what he said did not make sense to you then it would be time for a second opinion. Good luck. ewest

Yes, i did watch them shock the pond.they let me ride in the boat with them.I could not believe all the bass they shocked up.As for the bass fishing it is not very good.Average trip of 2 hours you catch about 2-4 bass from 12-15 inches.Largest bass every caught was 4lbs 2oz.I guess i must be one of the bad fishmen others talk about.We probably fish in the pond about 2-3 times a week for 1-3 hours each time.I do feed the bream twice a day,once in the morning and evening.I still can not figure out the alk. part,due to i have a good bloom on the lake.I do fert. as needed with liquid fert.We did not talk much about the new section all thought i did add bream and bass to this section so i should be in pretty good shape.My RW on the bass in the 10-14 inch bass was 80 and the fish over 14 inches was 100.The report said this was normal and due to fact we had good numbers of large bream for the upper size bass.I did not agree with this part at all i find most my bream are from just below medium size.They say i have plenty of large bream and plenty of small bream put not many in the medium(3-5 inch)size.The 3-5 inch bream are what they say i should add to the pond.I will be calling them this week to talk about some of the things they say we should be doing.I find it hard to believe we have such a hard time catching these bass,i would not have believed it if i had not seen it myself.The part about adding bream is hard to beleve,i'm telling you we catch bream all the time in large numbers.Hard to believe they shocked up a 6lb 15oz and 2 6 lb 5oz bass in this pond and several in the 4 lb. range.The good news is they did put a picture of the larger bass on the front cover of the report so i do have something to show off with.

I forgot to ask this question,is RW of 80 on the bass real low are average.Hope someone can give advice on this.Thanks

Pat -- yes, a relative weight of 80 on the smaller bass is low. However, I've seen Wr values down into the 60s. So, you should interpret 80 as low, but not a crisis (i.e., they are not about to die). The "pieces" of your report fit together well. The smaller bass are overabundant, competing for food, and thin. A few bass always pop through this "bottleneck" of competition, reach larger sizes, and always are in better condition (100 in this case) because they don't have much competion. Because there are few of them, they most often have higher relative weight.

Pat,

Don't believe that crap about bad fishermen. The conditions you describe mirror my situation exactly...poor catch rates, heavy fishing pressure, and artificial feeding....but lots of LMB. You have simply another data point of many that confirms the problems with LMB in small ponds with artificial feeding and fishing pressure.

I may have missed it, but did you describe the genetics of your LMB? Florida, native, or in between?

I'm not in a position to say for sure, but from your decription, you have exactly what I have...LMB that are virtually uncatchable, especially as they get larger. I seriously question the recommendation to add 3 to 5 inch BG. It sounds to me like they may be needing to move some fish and make some money.

If you have followed similar posts herein you have seen the bad fisherman rap; the claim that LMB hit lures better when fed to satiation; the statements that LMB are equally as catchable as they get older as when they are younger, there are just fewer of them; the statements that artificial feeding actually promotes bass to hit lures...all statements which fly in the face of what I experience all the time.

What's the answer...genetics may be part of the answer, reduced fishing pressure would help, and LMB that aren't handed every meal but have to hunt for it may be a factor. I'm experimenting with what I consider all three of those at ideal conditions in a new 2 acre pond...F1 genetics, no fishing, no artificial feeding, and in fact no chemicals of any kind, and Tilapia for additional forage.

EWEST, Tentmaker Farms, and myself are three on this forum who are trying very hard to come up with some answers (I'm sure there are many others also)...many steadfastly deny that there is even a problem.

Let us know your bass genetics please. Thanks.

Pat -- one more thought to back up a point made by Meadow. If you are successful at removing the sub-15 inch largemouth bass and lowering overall bass density, you will gradually (over a few years) see a natural increase in the 3-5 inch bluegills.

I have almost always had a much higher catch rate in ponds that have pure northern strain bass in them. I wish that I had made the connection a few years previous to stocking my pond. I have noticed that as the fish get older and larger the catch rate gets worse each year. These are pure florida strain bass. Now I'm thinking about trying to add pure northerns to the mix or giving up and going strictly to hsb.

James,

I think you have become a member of the DLMBC..the disenchanted Largemouth Bass Club. I'm a charter member and membership is only open to those who recognize the problems with Florida strain LMB in small ponds with catch and release and feeding....

Pat, ML, and Dave :

Pat your results are not unusual except for the alka. reading. Do not take their report or all of our discussions here as negative, they are positive information to use to help get you where you want to go. All of the matters you noted are fixable over time with info and work. Do not worry about it to much.

Dave and ML you are right and a good point that reducing bass 10-14in. will reduce pressure on intermediate 3-6in. BG and over time will result in improvement. While bass have to come out because there are to many for the forage base that presents a conundrum { a question within a question or riddle based on conjecture}.

If bass have to come out but you are having a catchability problem {hard time catching them} then won't taking out by hook {you are taking out a large part of the catchable ones} make the catchability problem worse. The % of catchable bass left in the pond will go down. Sense catchability is ,in my opinion, a proven genetically transfered trait you are curing one problem but making the second problem worse and worse over time --thus a conundrum.

If Pat had known of this conundrum prior to the survey then when the survry first started to confirm the situation he could have directed that all or most bass {depending on amount and sample size and time} be keep and taken out. Electrofishing is obviously not effected by catchability by hook and reduces the conundrum effect. It removes bass without reducing catchability.

Pat here are the questions I would ask :

Are you sure about the alka. could that have been a typo or did they give me ph {6.8 near equilibrum} rather than alka.?

Did you include in your assesment and report the new 20% of the pond {with fish} added? If not in my opinion you do not have an accurate report for your current situation to work from.

If SE stocked your pond then what type of bass were stocked Fla/northerns/F1 or some combonation? What do their records show are the types, sizes and amounts of fish stocked and when?

Pat the large number of 10-14 in. bass below RW along with the electrofish survey results are very strong proof that there are not enough of the right size 3-6 in. BG to move the bass to the 2-5 lb. range. Dave is right on the money on those points. Good luck and keep us posted. ewest

I do not agree with the above. It is certainly not generally understood how to fix the catchability problem of LMB. If it were simply a matter of work and info., my ponds would have been fixed long ago. The issue is much deeper than that. It involves a very complex set of variables, the most prominent of which are genetics, fishing pressure, and to a lesser extent perhaps artificial feeding. The interaction of these variables to achieve a catchable LMB in small ponds is certainly not well understood.

In my mind, the issue is to the point of questioning the validity of the sanctity of LMB as the fundamental predator in small ponds. If you want to fish for them regularly, as Pat does, if you want a reasonable chance of catching them, it is far from being simply a matter of work to achieve that objective, IMHO.

ML :

Pat mentioned several problems ided by his report including catchability only after it was raised and discussed by us. Most of Pat's problems like alka. and stunting are routinely fixable in the normal course of pond management especially by people like SE Pond Mgt.

You and I and many others on the forum are all about helping one another and others with pond mgt. no matter what the knowledge level. The tenor of Pat's post ,in addition to seeking info or help with his report ,is one of uncertainty , and discouragement. My approach to this is to encourage learning, to provide info , to help people along the journey and to give them hope that they can achieve their goals.

Being adequately fixed is a matter of perspective. While you and I seek perfection in our ponds others are happy with far less. Please note that I did not say that any fix to catchability was easy or quick, only that it required info ,work and time. Catachability can be improved that is clear. How to do it is a different question. Methods have been discussed and we are both are trying some. How much it has to improve to be judged a fix and to make Pat happy is unknown. Notice that I did not say the "bass" could be fixed but that the "problem" could. In the end if Pat is not satisfied with his catchability he can shock out the LMB and replace them with HSB, catfish, triploid LMB {yes they exist},female only LMB or some other combo ,which is after all another way to fix the problem .

The important point here is for Pat to continue his journy and not to just throw up his hands in disgust and give up because we , no matter how well intentioned , have alarmed him with our LMB catchability concerns. ewest

ps: worry is an invidious emotion that
IMHO reduces your lifespan and serves no
useful purpose. so don't worry.

Pat, I agree with some of the advice your getting here. Just wanted to say this. I have a similiar company to SE just not as big. However I feel they provide true scietific information about the pond. The recommendations based on their results mimic mine. My point is from information provided listen to what they have to say. Talk with them to better explain the "why" part of recommendations. Others here have some points but have a limited data source to draw from and I do not want them to lead you in the wrong direction.

EWEST,

Okay, you have your view and mine is somewhat different....which probably does not surprise.

To say that "we" alarmed Pat with our catchability concerns is less than accurate given his above recent quote.

Pat, I'm sure, can handle straight talk without the need for sugarcoating. Straight talk says that I agree with Pat that there is a significant catchability problem in small ponds with LMB under fishing pressure. Straight talk says that this problem will not go away easily. The fixes, such as they are today, are rather daunting.

"We" didn't invent this concern, nor will "we" make it go away easily.

The alarm is real, the concern is valid, and will not easily be eliminated nor mitigated. Those that do not fish their ponds like Pat does and like I do, may not have the same problems, but that does not make the problems any less to myself, or presumably Pat either.

Meadowlark, I have a few questions for you.

How is your new experimental pond doing? (the one w/ no artificial feeding)

For your pond with the "lockjaw" LMB, you mention three factors (Florida Strain, Feeding, and Heavy Fishing Pressure). Have you stopped feeding, and if so, has this improved anything?

Also, I know you're Mr. Fly Fisherman, but have you tried live bait in the "lockjaw" pond?

Then to Pat, I would like to ask if you have fished with live bait in your pond, or if you only use lures.

I suppose I would ask anyone with LMB that don't bite: Is this also true when using live bait?

I know where you're going Sunil. I've wondered the same. I've gone behind others & caught fish also.
What puzzles about Pat's pond is it appears bass heavy so they should be "hungry" right? They should be easily caught.
I also agree with Ewest's caution.
And if LMB/BG ponds aren't so hot why are they so popular? There are alot more ponds out there than represented on this forum and alot of people that read this stuff we write that don't post.

Sunil,

Very good questions. The "lockjaw" pond has a substantial number of growing HSB which I feed to encourage growth. In that "lockjaw" pond I am moving away from LMB and toward HSB and supersized CNBG. It was stocked originally with pure strain Florida bass. Yes, the Florida strain "conditioned" bass will readily take small live BG offered as bait. In fact, if I so desired, I believe I could catch just about every one of them by fishing with BG at or near the feeders. It is very easy to catch them on the bait that they readily take at the feeders all the time.

I know you like to fish with live bait, and I have no problem at all with that, except it isn't my preferred method of fishing. I can not say if the LMB in "Lockjaw" would ever become conditioned to using live bait, but I kind of doubt it as long as feeders are present. We just do not use live bait enough to know.

The experimental pond has every indication of being a complete success. No fishing yet, but I have observed F1 LMB behavior unlike any seen in "lockjaw" pond. Any given visit to this pond provides a dramatic show of ongoing violence. The LMB chase small Tilapia to the bank, to the dirt, and on occasion baby BG, Tilapia, and fatheads actually flee the water to try to escape predation. I have not dropped a fly in there yet, but have no doubt what will happen when I do...violence will be repeated. From a distance, the F1's are showing remarkable growth.

The temptation to fish this pond grows with each visit. The experiment is in great jeopardy.

I'm not saying that anyone is a bad fisherman, and I'm certainly not saying that I'm a better fisherman than anyone.

I just really want to know if the "lockjaw" LMB situation applies when using live bait.

And I don't want to hear an answer like "I wouldn't use live bait even if a swarm of cormorants had me tied down......" (you know who you are!)

edit: ML, you made your last post while I was typing in my reply to Ric.

It took a little longer than normal, but the "bad" fisherman innuendo comes out once again.

Sunil, No, in my case it does not apply. Small live BG are totally effective as bait. Perhaps even more effective than in most ponds because the LMB get a large portion of their meals at the feeders, on live small BG.

Sunil :

There is much we don't understand about catchability in LMB. Many are and have been searching for answers. There is a fair amount of published material on the subject. I do not remember a study comparing live bait to art. baits. I am going to re-check tonight to be sure.

There are 2 types of anecdotal evidence that suggest that catchability is not an issue to any large extent when using live bait. The problem of catchability in LMB especially Fla. strain were noticed some time ago. Hatcheries started to move away from raising and recommending them when two things occured about the same time. Researchers started establishing the scientific basis for the problem about the same time pond ownres started complaining about the problem. The hatcheries wanted satisfied customers and did not want to ignore mounting evidence of the problem so they changed.

The two pieces of anecdotal evidence are 1-- hatcheries had no problem growing out Fla. LMB {before pellet trained LMB existed} in rearing ponds filled with BG, GS, FH, shad etc. and had no problem catching them later on live bait when stocked into ponds ,2--most of the people including the fishing guides in the native range for Fla. LMB when they want to catch them use live bait esp. large shiners. If those methods work on Fla. LMB, which have the highest catchability problem , then they should work better on F1 and northerns.

Then there is the direct evidence like ML noted which I have also observed in our ponds on both Fla, F1 and northerns. If I want to catch a big LMB {any strain] out of our ponds the best way is to use a 5 in BG or better yet a 10 in bass.

I agree with ML that the use of live bait will get around the catchability problem . Maybe not 100% of the problem as there are other factors involved but at least a very high % of it. ewest

At the Saturday session of PB folks, Bob Lusk even said that he has come around to the understanding that Florida strain bass are very difficult to catch in small ponds. He said he used to think, like many on here still do, that its bad fishing, bad management or whatever. He said he always had held the theory that Florida bass have to be eating something to get that big so they can be caught. He has now changed his view.

I'm not in the minority on this topic in the broader audience of fishermen and pond folks. For some reason, which I do not understand, many folks on this forum always come back to the bad fisherman, bad manager, limited data, etc. arguments rather than open up their thinking to consider that indeed there may be something going on here. Since Bob Lusk says something is going on, and that is what I heard him say loud and clear, maybe more folks will listen.

EWEST, I'll be most interested in the minutes of that discussion.

Sunil,
It never occurred to me you were. I gathered from you post you experienced catching bass that had turned down artificial offerings on live bait. My response was in support of that as it has been my experience also. My guess is that many others have done the same. I like to feel a good fish on the line & can usually find a way to get them to bite. Live bait works most of the time.

I put 150 florida,150 native bass and 150 f1 bass in the pond 3 years ago.

Ric, I agree. Frankly, for myself, if I don't have live bait while at my pond, I may or may not throw out a minnow trap. More likely, I will revert to watching fish or doing other tasks that need to be done. Understand that I have a full arsenal of artificials on me at all times; I just don't care to fish them.

So as ML says, he can catch these "lockjaw" LMB if he chooses to go with live bait.

I think this is an important point, or underlying assumption, that needs to be brought out to forum newcomers. More specifically the context behind our own goals.

For ML, as an avid fly fisherman, he is deeply concerned that one of his specific ponds is not producing for him in a way that suits/satisfies him (being able to catch fish on flys).

In Pat's case, I'm not sure we know what kind of fishing he does (live bait vs. artificials), but in the case of a new pond owner who is trying to get a grip on his/her fish population, we need to suggest that they also fish extensively with live bait to get a real picture of what they have in their pond.

Again in Pat's case, he has the electro-shock survey that shows that there are some bigger LMB in his pond. If Pat's goal is trophy LMB, as I think he mentioned somewhere, then he is really not that far off from getting on a direct path to his goals. Bolstering the forage base, culling, etc. are all things that he needs to start doing.

I think ewest's comment about info. and hard work etc., is really right on the money.

Also ML, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just doing some light paraphrasing.

We all have some different context for our goals. For me, I could care less if any fish in my pond would or would not bite on an artificial. I would be leaving mounds of sadness everywhere if I couldn't catch any of my fish on live bait though. My brother who is a co-owner of my (our) pond is different; he only fly fishes, but he does catch fish.

Again, ML, paraphrasing for you, I think a fishery would be inadequate (or a failure) to you if you couldn't successfully catch fish on flys.

All right then. That's enough from me now.

Well, Pat I was hoping/expecting you would say all Floridas.

I understand what EWEST is saying about avoiding any negatives in a discussion, but I have to be frank and say I'm disappointed to hear that your F1's also may have the same problems as Floridas. That is disappointing indeed.

I tried introducing natives into my pond with uncatchable Floridas and found it did not help at all. The natives quickly "learned" the habits of the Floridas, it seemed because they suddenly became uncatchable and came from another pond in which they were imminently catchable.

I've had hopes that F1's by themselves would prove to be a better solution. Time will tell.

Thank you Pat for sharing your data and adding considerably to our own knowledge.

Sunil,

In my case, I know I can reliably catch native bass at a catch rate of 8 bass per hour on flies with a 50% chance of catching a bass over 5 pounds. That's in a 3/4 acre pond, without artificial feeding and with very light fishing pressure. Live bait might catch more, but I seriously doubt it.

When I go to my pond with "all" the management techniques of Floridas, artificial feeding, even fertilizer once, I have a catch rate of .5 bass per hour on either conventional or fly tackle.

I prefer the former rather than the latter...and yes I prefer flys/lures to live bait for sport fish. If you prefer live bait, then this discussion is probably not of interest nor relevant to you.

ML, I feel that we only recently started to discuss the method of fishing in this thread.

So your first paragraph of your last post is:

"In my case, I know I can reliably catch native bass at a catch rate of 8 bass per hour on flies with a 50% chance of catching a bass over 5 pounds. That's in a 3/4 acre pond, without artificial feeding and with very light fishing pressure. Live bait might catch more, but I seriously doubt it."

To me, this frames out what you view as a successful or pleasing result from your efforts. I think that's very nice what you have there.

Somehow, I feel we need to (or should) preface our opinions and advice especially to forum newcomers who don't know much about any of us.

Now with your last post, I think you've greatly clarified to Pat (and other lurkers) of the exact direction that your advice will hopefully lead them to.

Pat,
Sorry your thread got sidetracked.
Dave Willis & Greg offer advise based on alot of science & professional experience. We cherish their input.
As Greg said he has a similar co. as SE but has more positive testimonials on catching big LMB in the ponds he manages than you may have heard so far. So as ewest says be positive about your ponds potential & ask away any questions you might have.
We're lucky to have some impressive expertise on this site that will be glad to help.