I have a question for people who want black crappie in their pond. Is it really that hard to control the population and keep them from stunting ? I have a 3.5 acre pond (still filling) with a forage base well established, adult bass have been introduced to supply the first spawn this Spring. I love catching and eating crappie, and it’s hard for me to imagine them getting “out of control” because I love to fish. My water is always muddy after a big rain, but clears in about 3 weeks. There is a lot of structure away from the main 2 acre bowl shaped section of my pond (20 ft.) for the crappie to spawn and hide.

I plan on adding about 20 stripers to patrol the “open water”, along with 100 channel cats, threadfins, & tilapia in May. I want a diversified pond and would like to hear from others how they manage their crappie population. I know the main reason for overpopulating is stained water, and I fall into that category in general. Can anyone give a rough guess as to “how many” crappie need to be removed per acre when stunting at 5-7” occurs ?

I am putting crappies into one of my ponds that is only .62 acres. But I have a massive predator population of largemouth bass that are pellet fed (they eat fish too) and the crappies I am putting in are pellet trained and fed too.

When I say massive that may be an understatement. I add 300 pellet trained bass of 8 to 12 inches each fall now(grow out in cage the entire summer) and I also have mostly female yellow perch that eat anything that makes the mistake of hanging around the pond bottom.

I sell many of my bass when they reach 2 # plus and my perch when they reach 2 #.

Crappie are a little tough to predict. They are inconsistent spawners..they don't spawn each year. They spawn before other game fish each spring. Those two facts put a damper on solid fisheries management. Baby crappie eat other baby fish as they come off the nest. Since crappie are predator fish, they are only limited by mouth size. Since they have a big mouth, they can eat big food.
That's why crappie aren't recommended for small waters. It's not a matter of "if" they overpopulate, it's a matter of "when." So, be prepared to monitor your fish population regularly, so you can be prepared to move lots of small crappie when the time comes.

WOW, I my post was recognized by BOB !!! I feel loved I realize you are the expert and are cautioning me...but I can't live without crappie fillets ! In a 5 acre pond, can crappie numbers be significantally reduced by adding 21" + bass ? I realize numbers in general are hard...but can an overpopulated crappie pond be adjusted by the introduction of mature bass ? If so, how many per acre ?

Eastland,

I'm not Bob but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I think Bob will tell you a 21 inch bass is not as good a predator as somewhat smaller bass. A 21 inch bass wants larger food and not as often as a smaller bass. From the literature I have read and from my observations 14 to 18 inch bass are the eating machines that crop down forage. You want the 14 to 18 inch bass to be able to crop the crappies down (no pun intended) before they get out of hand.

The only way I would feel safe having crappies is to have a bass heavy pond. That is what I have but I feed and sell my bass when they are 2 lbs. plus and add many each year. I don't depend on reproduction and would prefer my young of year bass get eaten anyway as they are not pellet trained and will not grow as fast as my pellet fed bass. So no worries about the crappies eating my small bass.

You know, I have asked this time and time again, and I seem to stump people with this question because no one gives it a strait answer.

What if we were to use a few Flatheads and blues to control crappie numbers....If these catfish are the "eating machines" people claim they are, then put them to the test, see how well they control crappie numbers...Does this make sense??Would this work??

Eastland,

In reference to crappie overpopoulation in small ponds, Bob's comment, "not if but when" has been echoed by a number of experts on this site. What is encouraging, for us crappie lovers, are folks like Cecil who know the risks, but are willing to take that fork in the road.

Cecil, just curious, is this your first attempt at crappie in that .62 acre pond? Is this the same pond you raise trout in? You've got so much going on, I need to get my score card out to keep track. :p I'm sure you'll keep us posted with the results since you know all too well there are a number of Pond Boss members who would like to have crappie in their small ponds.

Eastland, a while back Bill Cody posted a link to a paper that dealt with the issue of crappie in small impoundments. I'll try to find it and repost it.

Crappie link


Russ

Russ - once you've hit "reply" (to a post), you will see a list of instant UBB code options below the "message" box. To post a link within your reply, click on the "URL" button, then paste the URL address for your targeted link on the appropriate line, then (when prompted) add a short descriptive name for the displayed link-shortcut - such as: Previous Crappie Thread

A similar process is used for inserting pictures within your reply. The picture(s) must first be stored in a web-assessed site (ie. Photobucket.com). Beneath the reply "Message" box, click on the "Image" button in the UBB Code list. Then, paste the URL for your web-stored picture, hit OK - and then add a short link-title on the next screen.
It sounds a little confusing, but makes sense once you've played with it a little.
KD

Of all the many management techniques used by fisheries managers, the only one that I see being promoted here is selective harvest. This technique works very well for LMB/BG/redears. As so many people have said, it does not work well for crappie.

Why not try some of the many other management techniqies available to us? One such technique is put, grow and take management. This technique is used extensively by many state fisheries departments as well as many clubs and individuals. People that have HSB must use this technique. It is used extensively with channel catfish and walleyes. Why not with LMB to control crappie? In our smaller lakes, it could easily be cost effective.

I think the point here is that there are so many different management techniques. Just because one technique doesn't work with crappie doesn't mean that one of the many other techniques won't.

Russ,

I planted some last spring but only a few dozen survived out of a few hundred due to being beat to hell in a hauling tank by 1 to 2 pound rainbows and subsequent fungus infection. I have another source this year that is raising them I believe in an RAS, and I will be hauling them and should have better success. (I never have problems when I haul my own fish).

They were only 4 or 5 inches when planted into the bass pond and I was astounded to have caught and released one that was a very stocky 11 inches just a few months later. I will be putting them in cages again and I will purchase a special soft pellet feed to get them going again if they go off the feed in the cages. (This happens with my smallmouth bass even though they are pellet trained)

I have four ponds now. Nothing goes into the trout pond except trout.

I may actually put the crappies, if I get them big enough to sex, or even if not, into another pond with larger perch that are a minimum of 9 inches when planted. Neither will be big enough to eat each other and neither is super agressive which is a problem I have with my bass pond in that the bass don't allow the perch and bluegills to feed until they are at least full.

Kelly, I edited the post and it looks like the link worked.

Cecil, growing 4-5 inch crappie to 11 inches in a few months WOW! Any chance of putting together an article for PondBoss on the details??

Thanks guys.

Russ

Russ,

That was probably a fluke so I can't take much credit. I wouldn't mind writing a few articles once I get all the bugs worked out and tweek things a little around here. I do know how to have a bass pond and numbers out of this world unconventionally and same goes with yellow perch. Hope to do that with bluegills and crappies too. Trout are easy to grow large and fast if you have the right water conditions.

I love it when people think "outside the box." Understanding the nature of all these fish, then picking the combination you want is great fun. All it takes is some imagination, time and a few dollars.
Big fish are big predators...it has to do with efficiency. Big blue cat eat big meals. I found a 50+ pound blue cat with a three pound bass in its belly.
Yellow cat are fierce predators, not only when they eat, but when they defend territory. They kill, then ask questions later. Will they control crappie? Yellow cat are not selective. They will eat what they can. But, they like to find a a place, hang out, ambush, and be still. They move when something doesn't come by. Can they control crappie? Sure, if crappie come to them. But, yellow cat grow up and want big meals...see the comment above.
21 inch bass would love to eat 10 inch crappie, but don't bank on them controlling big numbers of small fish.
One of the biggest problems trying to cultivate crappie are the youngest fish. They eat mucho small fish, grow to three or four inches, and mourn the loss of groceries. In the meantime, 14-18 inch bass will chase papermouths. So, to control crappie, you need to be overstocked with bass in the medium size ranges. Then, you are dealing with overcrowded bass overeating the food chain. Figure out how to balance crappie with bass, provide a consistent food supply for crappie to grow, and you will be on to something pond owners will love.
I have confidence someone out there will figure out how to do it. Go get 'em.

Yes Bob you know, you are right....It is not so much that Crappie take over in numbers as much as the fact that it takes soooooo much forage to feed them!! This what seems to make the most since why crappie fisheries tend to fails so much.

1) Good fertalization program, I mean good...

2) Good forage base like threadfin and other small type forage food that is big in numbers but small in size.

3)Over population LMB

4) A WILLINGNESS TO FISH THE CRAPPIE EXTREAMLY HARD...

People that want crappie in their lakes, almost by definition, want a panfish lake or at most a general fishing lake. That means in direct competition between crappie and LMB, they would sooner the resources go into the crappie.

Crappie are a very successful panfish throughout the south and the rest of the country. That means they are plentiful and grow to a good size. From what I read here, crappie tend to stunt in small lakes while they do not in larger lakes.

The characteristics of crappie that Bob Lusk mentioned, erratic reproduction and spawning before other species should occur in both large and small lakes. What happens in large lakes that makes crappie so successful that doesn’t happen in small lakes? When we identify these factors, how can we artificially introduce them to our small lakes?

Almost everyone that subscribes to Pond Boss magazine and/or reads this forum is willing to spend time and effort on their lakes. The advertisers on the magazine are betting good money that we are also willing to spend money on our lakes. With appropriate time, effort and money, we should certainly be able to figure out how to successfully manage crappies in our small lakes.

Success of crappie in large vs small lakes/ponds.

I think at least two ecological differences occur between typical large and small lakes.

1. Large lakes typically have more and larger diversified habitats than small lakes/ponds. More diversified habitats results in more types of food resources which ultimately results in greater abundance of food organisms. Thus when crappies in large lakes encounter food shortages, they are able to shift from one diet source to another and still keep adequately feeding and growing. The ability to diet shift probably does not occur as often in smaller waters.

2. Directly related to Number 1 is the ratio of littoral area vs deeper open water area. Many large lakes have expansive open water areas compared to the amount of littoral zones. I am currently not sure how this affects a lake's ability to produce a good or excellent crappie fishery, but I think the two are strongly related. The amount of littoral zone affects the production of forage items (mostly small fish) for crappie. Larger lakes with diverse habitats typically have a greater diversity of sucessfully reproducing forage fish. The key to a water body producing a good crappie fishery is dependent on the crappies always having adequate food for good growth and whenever a strong crappie year class occurs the proper or adequate mortality (predation) needs to occur so the amount if overcrowding is kept to a minimum.

As with any fish, the basic bottom line to producing a good crappie fishery is to keep the crappie from becoming overabundant and always maintain ample food so they continue growing. Sometimes good crappie fisheries occur in small ponds where the crappie are not able to or marginally reproduce. Thus overcrowding is often not a problem in these ponds and the few resident crappie have ample food sources.

Larger lakes tend to more often provide adequate population control and abundant food sources than smaller waters. But with luck and or proper management large crappie can be produced in small lakes and this sometimes does occur. Most fishermen know of or have heard about a good crappie pond or of large crappie being caught in certain ponds or small lakes.

So Bill, The Magic question is.....How large a lake would some one need to have a successful Crappie fishery??

You mentioned large lake several times....what is defined as a "large" lake??

big_pond - you always ask the hard questions; it shows you are thinking.

White crappie are more tolerant of turbid water than black crappie. One reference I have, says that white crappie do not become abundant in clear water when in competition with bgill, blk crappie and LMB. But I am sure someone has seen stunted crappie in a clear water small lake. What defines clear water?

Minimum size of a large lake that will produce a quality crappie fishery. Hummm. I cannot give you a definate answer to your question of how big a lake needs to be for it to most likely produce lots of large crappie. There are too many variables about individual features of lake ecology to consider. In general, I think the larger the water body the more likely it can result in a good crappie fishery for the same reasons I mentioned above. I think you can do a search of Bob Lusks past posts about crappie or scan his and other experienced fish guys comments in Pond Boss magazine and find that the general consenses is that crappie generally do best in water that is at least 6 to 10 acres in size. One source that I have says at least 3 acers and never in turbid water. Pond managemant books from KY and MO say that crappie are most likely to succeed in lake of 100 ac or more. Key here and most importantly is that larger waters or lakes result in many more varieties of siable natural habitats / niches for ample production of a greater variety of different types of small fishes. Keep in mind that the presence of small fishes is the backbone for a continual , repeat continual supply of small fishes to keep the crappie continually feeding and growing throughout each growing season. Several scientific references indicate that adult crappie are well adapted at zooplankton feeding at certain times of the year. The diet of crappie over 8"-9" was found to be 50% composed of large zooplankton items in Feburary. Night feeding on zooplankton has been reported; lots of insects are reportedly eaten in summer. Crappie probably eat whatever is most abundant where they are living.

Theoretically you can grow big crappie in small waters, all you have to do is keep an abundance of minnows available to however many crappie you have in that water. Big job!, especially you have other predators feeding on the same forage fish and if you have a population of crappie and other predators that are each yr reproducing. All of a sudden you can have many more mouths to feed and a shortage of forage fish. That is when and how most ponds get into trouble (i.e.food shortages). Once a few crappie spawn the number of minnows required to feed them increases proportionally. I think crappie are required to eat about a similar amount of forage fish/organisms to gain weight as other predators. I doubt they are much more efficient protein converters as other fish eaters.

Dave Willis may be able to help us with some of this stuff.

Even though crappie are considered to have "hinged" mouths and the mouth is considered fairly large for a fish of its relative size, I THINK crappie are fairly selective in the size of forage fish that they typically prey on. I have no proof of this and have never read research on the prey size selectivity of crappie. Just my educated guess and from observations. Most "prey size" research has been done with other predators such as: pike, walleye, bass, perch etc. Dr Willis may know of some research on this topic. But if crappie select or prefer prey fish in certain sizes, then often some of the consumable species of forage fish (bgill, y.perch, bass, shad) may fairly quickly grow out of this favorable size category and become unacceptable or uncatchable to crappie. The crappie has to catch it, to eat it. If no other species of forage fish is present then certain size groups of crappie go for sometimes lengthy periods with little or minimal food. This would then lead to slow growth and future problems. A slow growing group of crappie from one year's hatch start to stunt and if there is another crappie hatch the next year and these fish grow normally using zooplankton, insects and fish fry it does not take long for two year classes of crappie to develop that are about the same size. Overabundant numbers in one similar size category results; stunting then becomes more pronounced. This also happens with other fishes as well not just crappie.

Controlling overpopulation is key to success in any fishery. Just because a lake is the correct size to grow "good" crappie, if the proper population controls (mortality) and adequate food do not occur, stunting will occur. A fish will grow as long as it lives, as long as it has food to an excess.

Folks,

I plan on putting feed trained crappies in a 400 cubic foot cage and when they large enough to sex I may put the females into a small 1/10th acre pond with my female only yellow perch that are stocked at a minimal size of 8 inches. If I can keep them on feed I may be able to grow them out to good size. There wouldn't be any reproduction and the both species would be large enough to prevent them from eating each other. At least that's the idea on paper.

I'll keep you posted on my success or lack thereof. Only thing that worries me about crappies is the hauling. They are very delicate and difficult to haul and are prone to fungal problems from handling. (Been there done that but my last batch was from a different source that was a long haul, and they were put into a tank with 2 to 3 pound rainbows and probably beat around and stressed.)My new source is a 1 1/2 hour drive and I may use oxygen bags this time.

However since my fish are not destined for the table I will be consulting with a fish pathologist about using some type of preventive medication that is used for ornamental fish. I could add some to the hauling water or put them in a quarantine tank and treat them before putting them into the cage. I see in the AES catolog ornamental growers have lots of preventative and ongoing medication available to them vs. fish destined for the table which the FDA controls.

Thought I might go ahead and chime in on this one. My experience is crappie need big water, at least 20 acres. I have seen crappie do well in smaller bodies, but I have also seen them fail miserably in bigger water.
Here's a classic example. The very first lake I ever sampled, in 1981, was a 37 acre "bass" lake in Texas. We estimated there to be somewhere near 170,000 white crappie in the lake, average size 4 inches, average age..7 years old. So, my first experience with crappie was dramatic. There were few, small, stunted bass. Bluegill were gone. This poor lake has been like this for years. The small crappie looked like postage stamps. Skinny, sickly. This fishing club didn't have much of a budget, so rotenone was out of the question. So, after much pondering, the decision was made to bring in hybrid stripers, big enough to eat 4 inch crappie. An amazing thing happened. As I recall, the hybrid stripers were about 10 inches long, and grew extremely fast. After two years, members were catching five to seven pound HS, crappie were ranging in size to 10 inches. After three years, crappie numbers were down dramatically, size was up, and HS were double digit creatures. Bluegill made a come back, and largemouth bass were restocked. I lost track of the lake after about 1984, when I moved to Whitesboro.
Other case studies aren't nearly as dramatic, but I do see several consistencies. Crappie congregate, all year, even when they spawn. Similar size fish congregate. They are inconsistent spawners. They like to congregate, suspended in 6-10 feet of water, in trees or "fluffy" cover, in water as deep as 25 feet. Sometimes, they head to rocky areas and stay there. They eat whatever living creatures they can get, and eat lots of them.
Big water is best because of diversity of habitat. They would rather not mix with bass, but in small water they have no choice.
I have come to these conclusions after years of electrofishing and sampling.
Part of me admires the darn fish, the other part sees them as a pest.

Bob raises an interesting point with his HSB predation of open water crappie. I wasn't kidding, I did go crappie fishing yesterday, at a state lake, less than 100 ac in size. Found crappie suspended over old road bed in about 16' of water. Other than spawn, I tend to catch more crappie in open water than in shallow water. Seems that given the correct pond/lake structure, i.e. open water deep structure, HSB would be an additional tool for controling crappie numbers.

In a previous post Shawn Banks elaborated on successful crappie fisheries in a bass heavy enviroment. Sounds like HSB could be another tool for controling crappie for those thinking of stocking them.

I too would like to hear more thoughts on using big catfish to control the crappie population. It is my understanding that big flatheads won't spawn in a small-medium sized pond, and rarely so in even a big lake. Does anybody have any more info to support this?

I've always been led to understand that they need a river or other moving body of water to be enticed into spawning activity.

With that in mind, I would think that a 3 acre pond could easily support a small population (10 or so) of flathead catfish that would work wonders to keep the crappies in control while offering some rod breaking potential fun!

JMHO of course...

I am putting it to the test as I write this...I've recently introduced crappie to a small pond (approx 1.5 acres) and I plan on catching some small/medium flatheads this summer for release into the pond. I'm hoping the flatheads will also help keep the Bluegill from stunting as well.

I realize that it will probably be 3 years or so before I can tell if this strategy is working or failing miserably. If worst comes to worst, I plan on shocking the crappies into submission!Time will tell.

One note: the pond in question is already supporting a real good population of channel cats in the 2-3 lb range. We love catching the cats and releasing them for another day, although I think the cats have taken a toll on the Largemouth Bass population . Oh well, I personally enjoy catching the cats better!

I am planning a fish fry soon to help relieve some of the pressure on the Largemouth Bass.

Good luck all. This is a great site.

Tim, I'm not sure I understand your strategy on controlling bluegill and crappie. As the medium size flatheads grow, they are going to eat more large forage than small stuff. They also become extremely hook shy. As they grow, they will not expend the energy needed to catch a bunch of smaller forage fish. They will go for the largest thing that will fit in their mouth. That includes large spawning size bluegill, crappie, bass, etc.

Now, all of the above is conventional wisdom. You may find a way to work it out. Good luck.

I saw that Bill asked me to chime in with a couple of questions above.

You guys ask the toughest questions!! Man, this is a tough crowd. :-)

I don't know of specific information to the detailed level that Bill requested. There have been a lot of crappie food habits studies, in a lot of places.

My general overview is this. Both crappie species will feed on fish prey when it is abundant and of the proper size. So, in southern reservoirs, they feed on age-0 gizzard shad when the shad are sufficiently small. I don't think there is any doubt that, given a chance, crappies prefer fish prey.

Having said that, however, there are many times and places when crappies feed much more on invertebrates (zooplankton and aquatic insects) than on fish.

Here's my "pet" belief on crappies in small impoundments (I'll define that as up to 100 acres). I think that if you are going to try crappie management (and based on comments in this and other threads, don't do this lightly!), blacks are superior to whites. I base this on some food habits work we did on Kansas ponds back in the 80s.

In one pond with black crappies up to 12 inches in length, we did monthly food habits on the crappies. The pond only contained largemouth bass, black crappie, and a low abundance of green sunfish. In 11 months of open water sampling (we had ice one month), we found a grand total of 1 small green sunfish in black crappie stomachs, for crappies of all sizes. The crappies were eating zooplankton and insects. How in the world is this possible? Well, I always explain it to my students this way. Let's assume we actually know that this pond could support a maximum of 50 pounds per acre of black crappies. In this case, the largemouth bass kept the crappies in check, and perhaps there was only 25 pounds per acre of crappies out there. Thus, they had plenty of food per individual, and even though I'd consider an invertebrate diet to be inferior to a fish diet, they had enough food to grow fast and reach 12 inches in 5 years. These were plump, healthy crappies.

Now, we also worked on another KS pond that had white crappies, largemouth bass, and green sunfish. The bass were crowded, thin, and few exceeded 12 inches. They cropped the white crappies pretty well. Despite that, the pond produced 9-10 inch white crappies, but that was about it. My pet belief is that white crappies rely a lot more on fish as food than do black crappies. 9-10 inch white crappies aren't necessarily bad, and certainly are better than stunted 6-8 inch white crappies. However, it's just a so-so fish in my book. I’d much rather catch those 12 inch black crappies in the other pond!

Dave

Dave:

Thanks for the reply...Maybe my idea isn't so great afterall...I'd still love the opportunity to ocassionally catch that real big cat in the pond... But perhaps this pond is to small to make that a realistic possibility. I guess I'll have to settle for the 5lb channel cats instead of the 25lb flatheads.

The crappies I catch will all head directly to the dinner table, with heavy fishing pressure provided by myself and family and freinds...Hopefully, that will keep them in check while allowing some to reach good size for the dinner table.

Maybe we won't thin the Channel cats as much as I originally planned. Any flatheads I catch out of the local river will then need to fill the void at the upcomming fish fry.

Oh well...Sometimes you gotta adapt!

I believe the latest "in-fisherman" had an article on a tracking study done on white and black crappies in the same resevior. I only got to skim the article but the jist of it was that black crappies prefer shalow inshore habitats and that white crappies prefer deep water and structure in the open lake. In that case black crappies are the more reasonable choice for a small pond.

Dr.D W and Bill Cody; Not sure I have a good handle on crappie thriving to 12 inch on zooplankton and bugs. It almost seems that they would have to be continously filter feedering to get enough groceries out of the little bitty stuff to thrive and gain weight. Do I misunderstand the size of the zooplankton? What am I missing?

Thanks
Dave

Tim, from what I read Big Channels can be quite aggressive on Small Panfish such as crappie and even bream. Just read the thread called "Too Many Big Channel cats" I think it's called.

Keep your channels if you like them or bass will work as well. Although I did here you say the Channels were eating the bass..

Any way I believe the most important thing you can do for a crappie fishery is yes FISH THEM HARD!!!
Then make sure you have astablished a Very GOOD Forage progam...mostly with a fertalization and a good threadfin population.

Remember what the underline thing that most of these experts are saying, "these fish will eat you out of the house if you are not carfull."

Hi Dave. Reasonable questions, but I'm not sure I can provide better answers. You are asking for reasonable explanations of what seems to be an unreasonable observation. :-) The problem is that I did those food habits samples every month -- we tubed their stomachs and released them. I've got to admit that I was surpised as well. I may not have been as surprised if it had been big aquatic insects. However, the story is even further from that. Most of those big crappies had a ball of zooplankton in their stomachs in most months. They were plump, and growing fast. It may not seem right, but it was. That's why I started my response right upfront saying that crappies eat fish prey, when available. After we did that study, we were reading papers and talking to various people, trying to figure out how it could even be possible. The zooplankton were big, I'm guessing most between 0.5 mm and 1.5 mm, which is typical in a predator-dominated fish community. However, these were 12 inch black crappies, with all that zooplankton in the stomachs. One crappie "expert" we found suggested that black crappies could somehow collapse their gill rakers to strain the zooplankton, but we never found any evidence to support that theory.

So, there you are. I can only report what we observed, and can't give a satisifying explanation. Sometimes with Mother Nature, things just are?? I don't know. :-)

Dave

For Dave Willis:

Do you think that the crappie's apparent ability to feed on zooplankton could explain why they seem to proliferate in the extreem? (It might be part of the cause of thier apparent "curse" status in regard to the small pond environment...

I think the results of your crappie feeding/stomach survey make sense when you consider that crappies in large impoundments tend to school and suspend in open water for large periods of time during the year. I wouldn't expect minnows and other forage fish species to do the same because they would probably be decimated by the crappies, as well as walleyes, Pike, and a whole host of other "open water" preadators. The crappies don't seem to be as aggressive when the suspend deep (although they will take a minnow if you can get one down to them).

This has beeb a very interesting thread. Thanks for letting us in on your information.

Of the twenty ponds that I've managed over the last few years the clearer ponds always have predominant black crappie populations. Clearer ponds produce more phytoplankton, which fuels a healthy zooplankton community. Those ponds with high predator densities have the fastest growing black crappies with the best body condition. I've checked the stomach contents of every single harvested fish, which number nearly one thousand individuals and have found fewer than ten of these black crappies with any identifiable fish remains. Generally the blacks have a large quantitity of zooplankton in their stomachs. In one particular 3.5 acre pond the black crappie often have massive quantities of a prey item that we've keyed to phantom midges. Hardly a very big item, but found in large quantities and without very good escape mechanisms. It's not so much size that matters, it's the average amount of energy expended by the black crappie as it relates to calories found in the prey item. If the crappie expends .005 calories to catch a phantom midge, with an average calorie value of .008 the black crappie will continue to feed and feed and feed, and will subsequently thrive. If each fathead minnow has .9 calories but the black crappie misses half of the time and expends .45 calories with each effort it can't keep up with maintenance needs and will become stunted. Look at it this way...You'll get fat if you never have to leave the couch and your wife brings you McDonald's french fries and peanuts. You won't get fat if you have to run three miles to McDonalds for a double Big Mac with cheese and they're closed three times out of four.

There has been so much good information given so far. Black crappie seem to be able to grow on small food items where white crappie cannot. That an animal can grow big on small items is not as strange as it seems. Baleen whales in saltwater and paddlefish and sturgeon in freshwater grow very big on very small prey. While not growing big, gizzard shad can grow a tremendous amount of biomass on very small food. Bruce Condello explained how this happens.

I think the answer to this whole puzzle goes back to what happens in large lakes that does not happen in small lakes. I think the answer has already been given. Crappies are schooling fish. In large lakes they are only reproducing in part of the lake. That means that LMB are successfully reproducing in other parts of the lake. In small lakes, this separation is not occurring. That means the young crappie in a small lake are close enough to the young LMB to eat most or all of them. Remember that Bob Lusk said that crappie reproduce before LMB. Over time, that means a loss of predators to keep crappie populations in check.

In northern lakes, yellow perch and northern pike reproduce before crappie. This might be one reason crappie aren’t as big of a problem in northern lakes as southern lakes without these species.

Before moving forward on how to manage crappie, I’d like some comments about whether my analysis of the situation is accurate so far.

Norm, I think that you're on target. I believe your observation in pointing out spawn timing is a crucial key. All fry and fingerlings consume small prey so it would be intuitively correct that there is a significant advantage to getting a head start.

Bruce,

Bob made an observation concerning a stunted crappie situation that benefited from introduction of hybrid striped bass. Can you comment on your experience with this predator/prey relationship in your NE ponds.

Gumboot/Pedro,

I know you're just trying to rack up a few posts for lunker status.

Actually my personal pond has had striped bass hybrids and black crappie. I purposely created a pond with only minimal littoral or shore habitat. Steep slopes, no submerged cedars...anything I could do to tip the scales toward my SBH. It worked almost too well. In three years I never saw any black crappie reproduction. However the adult fish that I started with grew quite well. Some went to 14 inches. (Whew, I accidentally wrote 24 inches at first. I think I might have lost a little credibility with that one.)

In a paper written for the "North American Journal of Fisheries Management" 19:1044-1053, 1999 Neal, Noble and Rice wrote that hybrid striped bass introduction in small warmwater impoundments resulted in significant increases in total lengths and Wr's of bluegill, redear sunfish and black crappie. Not surprisingly the Wr's of LMB decreased because the SBH (which were quite small, by the way) consumed the Centrarchids (sunfish) at rate of nearly one million per hectare.

English translation. If you want to control crappie, bluegill and redear sunfish populations with striped bass hybrids, to a point that there is no stunting and maximum growth you need the following equation.

1. Stock plenty of smaller SBH
2. Give them an environment that they can catch their prey.
3. Be willing to give up largemouth bass body condition in trade.

The largest fish in the world eats almost exclusively plankton. And don't forget the silver and bighead carp, both exclusive planktivores.

Notice the body shape and the size of the eye. Compressiform fish are not highly adapted predators, they are not very fast. Crappie are adapted for manuverability, tight turns and fast stops. The large eyes of crappies allows them to see small prey easily. In effect, they are adapted for precision feeding.

Crappies might exclude bass and other predators by consuming all of the zooplankton, not by eating age 0 bass. Because they hatch early and eat lots of zooplankton (especialy when small) they may actualy eat so much zooplankton that there isn't enough food for LMB or BG fry to find food. It is critical that fry are able to find a good zooplankton meal soon after they hatch.
BG have been documented to prevent successful walleye hatch at densities of 50kg/ha or about 43lb/acre. Most likely they do this by eating all the zooplankton.

TyW33,

Not only do newly hatched larval fish need early zooplankton nutrition, but their overall foraging success in their first growing season has a large bearing on first winter survival. I don't know if that's correct in Texas but around here YOY walleye that make it to first ice as healthy 7-9 inchers have excellent winter survival. Those that don't have adequate availability of small prey items for early development hit that first winter at 4-6 inches, in poor body condition and practically disappear by the following spring. I'm sure this has some validity for all pond fish.

There has been lots of good autecology of crappie in this productive thread. A couple of my references indicate that crappie have 25-29 rakers on the first gill arch compared to 8-12 on rock bass, bluegills, and LMB. Big difference in raker numbers here and evidence why crappie can be good filterers of larger zooplankton such as Daphnia, Diaptomids and Chaoborus (phantom midge larvae). Lots of protein in those "bugs" for the effort expended as Bruce pointed out. Many of these larger zooplankton inhabit the deeper waters during day and migrate to near surface at night.

Ty made a good point about certain body features of crappie make them suited as good planktivours and what he says makes sense. I think black crappie populations usually do better in clearer water because larger forms of zooplankton are common inhabitants of clearer water. Crappie cn feed on these zooplankton when other foods are in short supply. Water in many ponds lakes is generally clearer due of greater densities of the larger filtering zooplankers such as Daphnia and Diaptomids (Chaoborus is predatory). It is starting to make sense why the best black crappie fisheries occur in waters that contain abundances of the larger zooplankters as noted by Bruce and Dave.

The body/eye size thing makes sense but why don't white crappie eat zooplnkton? They are shaped the same so they don't have the speed of HSB nor the mouth size of LMB. I've always wondered how white crappie can be effective predetors with small mouths and grouped together around brush.

This is one of my favorite subjects! It's been a while since I've been able to visit the site. I am very interested in Bruce's results with the hybrids.

I have experimented with them (hybrid stripers) to control crappie numbers and hopefully to increase crappie growth but did not see the results I was hoping to see. However, my situation is different because gizzard shad were present. The hybrids primarily ate the gizzard shad and to a limited extent, the sunfish. THis is also a much bigger lake. We did see minimal growth increases in the crappie but nothing significant. We think that the competition between gizzard shad and crappie for the zooplankton was reduced due to the hybrids preying upon the gizzard shad; thus, decreasing the gizzard shad numbers slightly enough to allow the crappie more access to the zooplankton. Nothing is concrete and I'm not allowed to "play" anymore.

But, I opened my own pond consulting business so I can "play" and continue to learn. I still do the Missouri Conservation gig to pay the bills. Bruce, do you have gizzard shad in your ponds with crappie and hybrid striped bass? I hope you don't. I am very interested in approaching some private pond owners about stocking hybrids in their ponds. I would like to know the impact that the hybrids have on the sunfishes...particularly the crappie and bluegill. Most ponds around me have bass, bluegill, catfish, and occassionally crappie. If it's alright, I would like to give you a call. I have lots of questions for you. I will share you're answers on this site, but I would hate to bog the website down with the amount of questions I have.

Also, someone mentioned channel catfish impacts. FYI- my buddy Isermann and I shocked Normandy reservoir in Tennessee 12 hours after fingerling crappie were stocked. We were interested in seeing if anything was eating them. Boy were they an easy target! We split open a 7-8 lb channel catfish that had 118 crappie in its gut. We also gutted some bluegill that ate the crappie. This wasn't a formal study so the results will probably not ever be in the literature. We were just doing some exploring. Moral of the story.....be careful when you stock. It was pretty crazy to see how many crappie got whacked that night. Just about every species of fish we shocked had taken advantage of the free meal. Gotta go. Shawn

I figure I am going to have some problems in my 5 acre pond before too long. My well-wishing neighbor put about 80 adult black crappie in my half acre pond. Some have been fished out, but a few made their way to my larger pond. Last year I caught a couple of 4-6 inch crappie, a 12 inch crappie (big sucker!) and even saw a few tiny fish that I think were crappie. I also have some good sized bass, lots of mid sized bass, and tons of sunfish, even though this pond was completely dry three short years ago. The pond was never formally stocked, just the great prarire fish migration. And big_pond, there are a couple of flatheads and a couple of blues that have been introduced as well. (I made my first pathetic attempt at journalism in this months Pond Boss, writing about this pond's history.) Short term everything is growing like crazy, but in a few years I am going to have serious issues, I'm sure. Shawn, I might be a candidate for some HSB. For now, I'm just going to monitor and see how things come out.

Shawn (Banks, that is): Thanks for posting that observation on the channel catfish eating those stocked crappies. To be honest, if you had asked me to predict, I would have said that would NOT have happened. So, once again, I'll have to modify my thinking. Man, I wish I could improve above 50-50 on my pet theories! :-)

Dave

You know, this has been the most fascinating thread that PB has had in a while. Finding that crappie are zooplankton eaters and prosper on it plus finding that channel cats clobber crappie. This could open up some new thought processes on stocking. I hope Shawn Banks does post the findings. This is good. Thanks to all who are contributing. You guys (too many to mention) are why this is the best pond site on the net.

Hey Doc Willis, your post reminds me of the old joke about the College Dean who was addressing the new Graduates about the future. He said that he had 2 confessions to make. First is that 50% of everything they had been taught was wrong. The second confession was that he had no idea which 50% that was.

For such a crappie name crappies sure get a lot of attention on here!

Here's another thing to add to the stew. I happen to know rainbow trout can and do feed primarily on zooplanton in lakes were other forage is lacking. According to literature I have see rainbow are supposed to be abl to get to 5 lbs or so in three years on a strictly zooplankton diet. Even lake trout can exist on zoo plankton but in that species their size suffers.

Of course that is lakes vs. ponds but I though it might be of interest that trout can also effeciently feed on zooplakton.

Here is my "spin" on this at this point.

I think if one reads the past posts in this thread carefully you will find that black and white crappie can feed on zooplankton. It may not have been specifially stated that way since white crappie tend to have a larger portion of their diet as minnows as compared to black crappie.

If you dig into the good fishery literature you will find that white crappie will at times feed heavily on zooplankton. In a PA reservoir, Mathur and Robbins 1971 concluded that plankton feeding by adult white crappie was due to their long gill rakers. Becker says zooplankter type organisms are a significiant food throughout the life of white crappie. but insects and forage fish are usually the major food of large white crappie. The percentages of zooplankton, insects and fish seem to vary somewhat with each study. In an IA study plant materials & insect adults never accounted for more than 5% of the diet of white crappie.

I think white crappie tend to eat more fish and less invertebrates than the black crappie for probably two reasons. 1. White crappie may have a slightly greater "preference" for fish than black crappie. 2. and more importantly ecological conditions may play a big role in diet of the two crappie species. White crappie seem to be more tolerant of cloudier water or are found to be more successful or occur more frequently in "muddier" or cloudier water than black crappie who succeed best in clearer waters where larger zooplankton forms thrive. Normally zooplankton at least the larger forms of zooplankton do not thrive as well in muddier conditions compared to clearer waters. Phytoplankton (zooplankton food) also does not grow as well in muddier water compared to clearer water; it is a light thing. Cloudier water probably contains relatively more minnow forage items than larger zooplankton items and white crappie thrive there and thus eat what is most abundant, small fish. Clearer water typically has relatively more forms of larger zooplankton and fewer forage minnows thus black crappie thrive better in those conditons and a big part of their diet becomes zooplankton since it is relatively more abundant or "easier" to eat/catch. White crappie may have more minnows in their diet due to a particular lake has a stronger small fish community than the assemblage of larger forms of zooplankton, thus these whites eat more small fish since they are relatively more abundant.

Bottomline, I think both types of crappie can utilize large zooplankters and the extent that each eats those zooplankters depends on how abundant the larger zooplankters are in each individual lake/pond compared to the abundance and compositon of the small fish community.

Gentlemen,

If you can’t tell, I’m really enjoying this thread. I’m going to take my turn at wrapping up all of this crappie foraging theory into one ball.

With a little gentle borrowing from a couple of resources I’d be happy to name later, I present the “Condello Theory of White and Black Crappie Foraging Habits”.

Through the amazing observations and hard work of Charles Darwin, in the middle of the nineteenth century emerged the Darwin Theory of natural selection. Darwin proposed that all living things were descended from a common ancestor. Some of us believe in evolutionism, some in creationism, and many in a combined form that gives us peace. Regardless, Darwin invoked a mechanism that he called natural selection. According to Darwin, not all organisms were equally fit for survival and reproduction. Those best adapted to their current surroundings tended to leave more progeny, meaning that these adaptations, and the genes being expressed as these adaptations were spread about at higher frequencies throughout the population.

Darwin had one extremely glaring problem with his theory. He had made no explanation for heredity. This was Mendel’s realm. Although living at the same time, Darwin and Mendel never met and there was never any evidence that Darwin was aware of Mendel’s work. For the next hundred years, scores of famous geneticists labored to incorporate Mendel’s classic discoveries into Darwinian theory.

One of these famous geneticists was S. Wright. In Wright’s model, each population of a species was symbolized by a specific point on a map he called the adaptive landscape. As species changed through time, through evolution, they moved to higher elevations on the map. More fit species were moved to higher elevations and less fit species occupied the lower elevations.

At first this map was based on the idea that many changes in a population were random, which truly aren’t likely events. As I’ve mentioned before, a random mutation is not very likely to be of benefit to a species. It’s akin to improving Dale Earnhardt Jr.’s racecar by shooting a .22/250 through the engine. The great majority of the time greater harm occurs than good. Anyway, to beat this problem, Wright proposed that evolution occurs in small, mostly isolated breeding units called “demes”.

The classic Genetics 101 example of this occurs in the peppered moth, Biston betularis. I’ll bet a lot of you remember this from high school. Anyway, the peppered moth was found in wooded areas through England where it existed in two forms called appropriately, light and dark. Imagine the creativity that went into this naming.
Since the mid 1800’s the frequency of the dark form has increased from only a couple of percent to over ninety percent in the highly industrialized areas, while remaining quite rare in rural areas. Apparently the trees in the industrialized areas were taking on a dark color because of the soot emitted from factories. The dark moth stood a significant advantage against predation from birds when at rest on the dark trees and so became the dominant form.

Black and white crappie are likely branches of the same trunk of evolution. This explains their similar look and their ability to hybridize with one another. In all likelihood there was a time that as the original crappie, or common ancestor if you will, was broken into many isolated breeding units. This still occurs today. Anyway, into order to move to higher elevations on S. Wright’s adaptive landscape they continued to vary in ways, some subtle, some not that allowed them to move to higher elevations. Some examples might be new unique coloring patterns, slightly different body shape, different number of dorsal spines, and most importantly feeding habits. Some of the isolated populations found themselves in areas that had few or no small fish available. Maybe other isolated populations had abundant fish and began to specialize in eating these fish in order to move to a higher elevation.

As centuries and millennia passed, these two species began to differ more and more in order to take advantage of their particular niches. Human skin pigmentation changed over just a few hundred thousand years to take advantage of different climatological influences, and crappie characteristics did likewise. Black and white crappie changed to be better.

Then came the Pondmeister. The Pondmeister takes crappie from one type of environment and places them in a different type. And then another type, and another. Some of the white crappie find themselves in systems like the ones that their isolated breeding group ancestors were in. Lots of fish to eat. They thrive. Yes, they have enough survival instinct to eat zooplankton, but it may not really be what they’re hardwired to eat. The black crappie tends to do pretty darn well with fish OR zooplankton. Could it be that the white crappie is the offshoot? Split off from the main group for tens of thousands of years, never needing to be very good at utilizing plankton? Or maybe the black crappie is the outshoot. If the original crappie was purely a fish eater, then maybe the black crappie was isolated to a situation where it had to become good at eating plankton. Will we ever know? Will anyone ever care? Did anyone read past the second paragraph of this post? We’ll never know…………

Anyway, maybe it’s just enough to know that the black crappie does something better than the white crappie. The chimp probably makes a better ant collecting stick than an orangutan. Hee hee.

Shawn Banks call me sometime. Email me at bmcondello@bizfunctional.com and I'll shoot you my phone numbers.

Later,

Bruce

Lake victoria in africa had hundreds of species of cichlids, all diverged from a single ancestor less than 10,000 years ago. There were many species that all utilized the same food source but in diffrent parts of the lake. There were at least 5 species that ate exclusively zooplankton. One of the species was always found in the top 6 feet of water. Other species migrated through the day following the food. Other species lived deep or inshore or over rocky bottms, exclusively.
Because of abundant resources, constant food supplies, sexual selection, and variable habitat many species are able to co-exsist on the same food supply. Even though they eat the same food they don't eat the same prey at the same time in the same place. (If your a geek like me you would enjoy the book "Darwin's Dream Pond", its about the evolution of cichlids)
Black crappie and white crappie may eat exactly the same thing but they do so in diffrent places. Black crappie live inshore and white crappie live offshore. They may live on the same food sources, or on what ever happens swims infront of them. Over time they make small adaptions, spawn at slightly diffrent times and live in diffrent places. In a large lake they may not compete at all, in a pond there is little difference between inshore and offshore and they probably wouldn't coexsist well.
It is possible that niether one represents the "original" but that instead the ancestor is a planktivore generalist, that adapted to a slightly larger size and the ability to eat minnows. And then that split in half, one for inshore on for off.

Wow! You start talkin' genetics and this thread went "THUD"!

Is there a particular advantage to having one or two extra spines? I would assume it to be an environmental adaption.

OK guys,
I have caught hundreds of white crappie in Kentucky Lake in 25' of water over brush piles on minnows- somehwat muddy water. I have caught some beautiful black crappie in the backwaters of Long Lake, MN in 2' of water in a 6' diameter opening in the lilly pads, on nightcrawlers- clear water.
Can I conclude that the BC eat more zooplankton because of the location that they seem to prefer? And the same goes for WC? And applying this to a large pond, the BC seems to be a better fit, because they don't eat as many small fish? But because a pond environment is on a smaller scale, a guy might force the BC to adapt to eating more small fish?
I ask these questions because I really would like to stock some BC in my pond at some point. I know all the advise is against it. Somebody had stocked some WC in our last pond and everybody enjoyed catching them. I monitered a trap to keep track of the young fish. I never trapped a baby crappie. I assume the bass took care of them. I did notice a decline in the baby bass over the years.

Brad B.

Dave, I'll take a stab at this one. Why exactly do some fish have spines, anyway? The logical answer might be that the spines make young fish less palatable to large predators. Maybe a predator that has a chance to prey on young fish would choose soft rayed fish like shad first. Shad quite possibly adapted to their lack of spine or other good defense mechanisms with increased fecundity. Why does the white crappie have fewer spines? You got me. Some biological structures are eventually lost over time from lack of use. I think they call them vestiges or vestigial organs. An example of that would be human 3rd molars or "wisdom teeth". As humans have less and less need for large molar surface area to grind raw, whole grains there seems to be a movement towards fewer wisdom teeth. It's not unusual at all for our patients to reach their teen years to find out that they have less than a standard issue of third molars. Three, two, one and sometimes no wizzies at all. It's all speculation, but fun just the same.

In the local lakes around Lincoln, NE the few water bodies that maintain year-around clarity and have good emergent, submergent vegetation systems seem to have predominantly black crappie populations. The reservoirs with agricultural runoff problems and cloudy water are always primarily white crappie. This may not have a huge impact on small water status. One thing that seems to be true is that in small waters with only whites or blacks and good water quality is that the general body condition of blacks seems to exceed that of whites. I'm just really convinced that all other things being equal, in a pond system with no shad and reasonably clear water that black crappie will outperform white crappie over time. If you find me wrong, invite me over and I'll catch out all of the crappie for you.

I find it useful to think of crappie stunting as a process similar to a disease. With a disease, we try to identify the life stages of the disease so we can look for different ways of attacking it. Bob Lusk has said many times that it’s not if but when a crappie population will stunt. This implies that a crappie population can remain in equilibrium with its environment until some sort of trigger sets it off. He has also said that crappie are erratic spawners. It is likely that a large spawn is the trigger that sets this process off.

Two things can happen. One is that a large crappie spawn destroys a bass year class and we immediately have a stunted crappie population. In this case we have to keep a large crappie spawn from ever occurring. The other is that it takes the loss of 2 or 3 bass year classes to allow a stunted crappie population to develop. In this case, once we see symptoms develop, we can take action.

It seems more likely that it takes 2-3 years for a stunted crappie population to develop. Others with more knowledge than I will have to comment on this.

HSB and saugeyes (hybrid walleyes and sauger) have successfully been used to stabilize crappie populations. My guess is that it isn’t the type of fish but rather a supplemental stocking of predators that does the job.

The management solution is the supplemental stocking of predators.

If you read back all of the posts about managing fish, you will seldom, if ever, see this management technique even suggested. This is all changing because of one single event--interest in HSB.

Bruce Condello’s knowledge and enthusiasm for HSB is showing us that not only are they are great game fish but also that they are a reasonable addition to our small lakes.

While HSB can successfully reproduce (yes, Dave Willis, even I can learn), they seldom do reproduce in our small lakes. That means we have to learn how to manage a non-reproducing fish in our lakes. The biggest problem is an established population of LMB. We must learn how big fish must be to survive predation. We have to learn how many fish to add per acre. We have to learn how often to stock (yearly, every two years etc.). We will learn about costs per acre per year. And the most important thing, we will learn that it is worth our time and money to do this. Slowly, this will become an accepted management technique for small lakes.

To understand how dramatic of a change in thinking this is, imagine someone suggesting using exactly the same technique with LMB. Most fisheries managers would discount it immediately. I think that supplemental stocking of predators at the start of the stunting process would control crappies.

Norm, I'm certainly not the more learned person to comment but the key consideration could be the erratic spawning that Lusk mentioned. It could be that predators can control crappie if they don't erratically spawn for several contigous years. Predators might control a normal yearly boom or bust situation but could become overwhelmed with 2 or 3 years of big crappie spawns. The resulting extra crappie could overwhelm the other denizens spawning and further tip the scales. It sounds like it can be done but might take intense management.

Spines effect movement as well as predation. These fish live in very diffrent enviroments and it is not suprising that they have fins of diffrent sizes. I bet that there is a graduate thesis on fish ecology and behavior in that topic.

Lakes that are in need of crappie managment are generaly lakes that already have stunted crappie populations with little or no predators. I would guess that this is not a matter of one good crappie year class or even three. But rather that age 0 crappie out compete other age 0 fish for zooplankton and cause repeated year class faliures. BG have been shown to prevent successful walleye spawns at high densities, not through predation but through competition for zooplankton resources. Because crappie spwan in mass before other species crappie fry could desimate a zooplankton comunity. Stocking fingerling predators circumvents this problem.

Most likely it doesn't matter what you stock into a stunted crappie pond, as long as it eats fish. I would suggest that instead of planning for a boom crappie spawn plan for bust bass spawns. Taking steps to increase bass recruitment may be an effective step to prevent the exclusion of bass.

Maybe my ignorance will show; but if consumption is the main concern of raising crappie and maintaining a balanced pond why couldn't the crappie be feed trained? Maybe it is not feasible but it seems to me that it would counteract the controversy some what.??

Crappie are notoriously difficult to feed train. It can be done, and Cecil Baird knows a heck of a lot more than I, but it requires a lot of time and effort to feed train them, and even then many never catch on to the idea.

Is the amount of microorganisms the controlling factor in crappie stunting? I would think that gizzard shad would eat many more organisms than crappie. Still, Bob Lusk recommends them in some situations and they don't cause a decrease in LMB populations.

It may have to do with the type of organisms. If gizzards eat lots of small zooplankton they may leave the larger zooplankton that the bass prefer. Also gizzard shad and yoy bass inhabit diffrent areas of the pond and therefore compete for diffrent resources. Also would you put gizzard shad into a unfertalized 5 acre pond?

An interesting paper just appeared a couple of days ago in one of our technical fisheries journals. Gizzard shad densities tend to be lower in waters with submersed aquatic plants, and thus the negative effects of shad are more likely to occur in waters without plants.

I know we have a variety of readers. For those of you more interested in technical information, I will post the paper's abstract below.

Transactions of the American Fisheries Society: Vol. 134, No. 1, pp. 149–159.

Age-0 Gizzard Shad Abundance Is Reduced in the Presence of Macrophytes: Implications for Interactions with Bluegills

Paul H. Michaletz, Missouri Department of Conservation, 1110 South College Avenue, Columbia, Missouri 65201, USA

Joseph L. Bonneau, Missouri Department of Conservation, 3424 Northwest Duncan Road, Blue Springs, Missouri 64015, USA

Abstract.—The abundance of gizzard shad Dorosoma cepedianum may be reduced in the presence of macrophytes, which may lessen the frequently observed negative interactions with coinhabiting bluegills Lepomis macrochirus. We used a series of experimental pond studies and a small-lake data set to examine relationships among gizzard shad, bluegills, and macrophytes. Fall age-0 gizzard shad abundance was lower in vegetated experimental ponds than in unvegetated ponds, but mean total length (TL) did not differ. Larval gizzard shad abundance did not differ between vegetated and unvegetated ponds, but the relative survival of age-0 gizzard shad (ratio of fall juveniles to the total number of larvae collected) was higher in unvegetated ponds. In ponds with macrophyte coverage ranging from 0% to 100%, age-0 gizzard shad abundance declined with increasing macrophyte coverage; however, age-0 bluegill abundance was unrelated to macrophyte coverage. The abundance and size of age-0 gizzard shad and age-0 bluegills were unrelated in these ponds. By examining the small-lake data, we found that the proportion of lakes containing gizzard shad decreased with increasing macrophyte coverage. The proportion of bluegill populations containing large adults (>203 mm TL) increased with macrophyte coverage for lakes with gizzard shad but not for lakes without gizzard shad. Although the actual mechanisms are not clear, we suggest that competitive interactions between gizzard shad and adult bluegills are density dependent and lessen with increasing macrophyte coverage because of decreasing gizzard shad abundance.

Actually there may be exceptions to that Bruce. I had one trout grower tell me they seine crappies out of ponds and put them in raceways for the winter and they feed on the trout chow just like the trout. Unfortunately this grower is the one that hauled them with the 2 to 3 pound trout and they took a beating with many succumbing to fungus.

My supplier this spring has feed trained crappies and he is the one that will have the feed trained redears. He's only a couple of hours away at the most and I will probably put them in oxygen bags to get them home. I'll even cover the bags to keep light out which may help.

Could it be that most growers don't bother feed training crappies because it's less labor intensive to not feed them or feed train them, and they just let them grow out on zooplankton in ponds?

Dave,

It would make sense that shad are more numerous when there are less macrophytes as that would mean more nutrients are going into phytoplankton and hence into zooplankton which the shad feed primarily on. Bluegill do better with more macrophytes as that means more insects etc., is a cover for the young, and I have examined the stomach contents of bluegills that have plant material in their stomaches.

Cecil, What direction do you go to attain feed-trained crappie and/or redears? I looked up how to get to Ligonier, IN already...just curious if your source is closer or farther away from Lincoln, NE.

Here is a theroy...
macrophytes may be limited by water clarity or water depth. High macrophyte coverage means more shallow water. Deep water serves as a refuge for large zooplankton during the day, they migrate to avoid fish predation. With out a deep water refuge the large zoops. and cladocerans might not survive. The diffrences in the lake morphology may create diffrences in the zooplankton community that inhibit gizzard shad survival.
Macrophytes may also increase predation on age 0 shad, or inhibit foraging behavior. Forcing age 0 GS to live in close contact with adult BG may increase BG predation on YOY shad.

Excellent points!

Bruce it's a little farther away by a couple of hours east. If you figure out a way to pick up the redears (Cooler(s) with oxygen and an oxygen stone would work fine for the amount you will probably get) you are welcome to rest at my house before you head back. Otherwise I will look into Fedexing the fish in oxygen bags in boxes. Or you could go to the trouble of using my tank and trailer but then you would have to drive all the way back which I would not recommend.

I plan on getting a smaller trailer that I can pull behind a passenger car and rigging up a larger cooler or two with an oxygen airstone for when I have to pick up fairly small orders verses larger ones.

Cecil, The striper fishing guides in Texas use a cast net to catch shad for bait. They put some kind of solution in the water of their large bait tank that helps keep them alive during hauling. Do you know what it is and/or have you used it?

Dave,

Not exactly but I see a lot of additives for bait in the Aquatic Ecosystems catalog such as "Tranquil," "Better Bait," "Finer Shiner" etc. When I haul trout and perch I use a product called "Sure Haul" that reduces stress, accumulation of ammonia, nitrate, and prevents foam up, which I add uniodized salt to. I haven't lot a fish yet in the hauling tank and I've hauled for up to 13 hours.

You can get a bottle of powder called Shad Keeper(I think that is the name) at Bass Pro Shops that does the same thing that Cecil's talking about. I just bought some last weekend to help with transfering some gizzard shad. It's a pretty good sized container and cost less than $10.

I've been away from this site for some time, almost two years I think.

Just finished this 5 page thread. Outstanding Read!!!!!

Welcome back Flatlander! It has been a couple of years since we last heard from you. Whatcha been up to??

Russ

Hey Russ,

It is funny that I remember so many of the posters and their past stories.

I'm still in Maine (wife loves it and doesn't want to leave). I'd like to come back down south but......

Anyway, still playing with my little pond project with my next door neighbor. Slow going there.

I just posted under Meadowlarks “My Pond” and you’ll get a sense of the fun I’ve been having around my project. Don’t get me wrong about living in Maine, it mostly is great and the fishing here is outstanding on public waters. For example, I took an 8 hour float down the Androscoggin River this past Saturday with my wife’s partner (in practice together) and we caught smallies consistently the entire trip. I personally landed 5 or 6 fish in the 4-5 lb class. He also caught 2 rainbows slightly over 18 inches and I got a brown that was just over 4 lbs. So the fishing is great. I still pine away for the South however.

The good news is the family estate back in MS is about the settle and my father will get to start work on his pond project that has been on hold (due to the estate and family squabbling) for the past three years. I’m hot to get going as nobody is getting any younger. Daddy has decided to improve an existing 1.5 acre pond that is on his piece of the place and I intend to hit the site hard during this process. He thinks that I know something about pond management because I can repeat what I’ve heard on the boards. I suppose this new project got me back and I’m excited about it chatting with the old gang again.

Gordon

I don't think Crappie would be so bad if they all grew like this one!

Come on 3z, give us the story behind that fish. The waters look small and its without a doubt, a slab.

Flatlander,

Thanks for the update. A good number of new members have hit the board since you last checked in so there are, like you mentioned, a lot of good stories/projects to catch up on. You'll certainly have to keep us up to speed with your dad's project. Mississippi to Maine......thats a heck of a commute

Russ

Boy that IS a nice crappie for pond or ANY waters for that matter...this is one of my goals for my lake...

I have a 1/2 acre pond that seems to have mostly bream(that doesn't bother me at all)and I have heard you can get away with crappie and bream,no bass, in the same pond. Has anyone heard this or tried this?

Hope Dad gets started this fall. Not sure. The pond is an old farm pond that was only about 1/4 acre. I remember being about 8 (34 years ago) and finding what I think was a big eyed 2-3 inch crappie in a puddle behind the spillway.

The pond was enlarged about 8years ago by my uncle who has been a resident on the place all along. He says its 1 ½ acres….don’t know (asked Dad to walk it and give me the steps). My uncle put channels and copperheads in it but no bass until my father and he put 20 10-12 inchers in about 2 years ago.

To my knowledge it’s never been drained. The catfish don't bite anymore but it’s easy to catch the brim and bass. There where bass in it before the 20 where seeded 2 years ago. I say this because a 5 pounder was caught last summer and I don't think he was one of the 20 based on size. This pond is also full of shiners which leads me to believe there are few bass.

Anyway, Pops and I have talked about the plan and he's decided to drain the pond and salvage the fish for a massive fish fry and fill up everybody’s freezers in the family. He’s talking to a dirt guy who will use a long armed excavator to muck out the bottom and enlarge, contour, etc. Dad wants to enlarge again and that will depend on how much dirt his guy can move in a day. He had set a budget of $20,000 to build a new pond but hasn’t said how far he will go on this renovation.

I gave Dad a subscription to Pond Boss years ago and he understands points, trenches, and cover issues. Anyway, it’ll be great fun and I’ll post as many pics as possible.

Mental note to me, never go fishing at Gordon's place.

In your second paragraph you wrote, "My uncle put channels and copperheads...."



Russ

You got me Russ! It was copper nose bream.

I was talking to Dad tonight about how to get all the fish out when we drain the pond to do the enlargement. I came up with a hoop net with wings across the middle of the pond right in front of the deep end. The wings being slightly angled back to the shallows and hitting both banks.

Sounds like a winner to me as it will get a lot of the fish and make the deep end seining easier.

gw