Yesterday I found a few dead bluegill and others swimming around not looking too good. Saw a few this morning swimming very slow and not looking good. The bass however are doing fine. There were several bass at the feeder yesterday when it went off that were taking pellets. Each time i have bg die, the bass seem fine. What water conditions is it that bg can't live in, but bass are fine? If I could figure that part out, then I might be able to correct the problem. Could it be oxygen, or do they both require about the same amount to live? It is almost always large male bg.

Pond is about 2 acres, stays full, and right now about 30-40 gallons per minute are flowing thru, which will stay about the same all winter. We did have some big rain events in the last month here and the water got muddy for a week or so.

Old age, stress from cold, enhancing natural die-off?

What is upstream that might be toxic?

Here in the south I doubt it would be the cold. This happens from time to time even during warm months. The bg are about 4 years old. I would think if it were old age, then it wouldn't come in stages. Of course I do see a single from time to time dead, but most of the time it is more than one.

The backyard of a few older homes do backup to the place here my stream begins. from what i hear, phosphorus has been removed from detergent now and isn't harmful to streams. I never smell or see any signs of sewage.

I cut the feeder off yesterday. I have read where feeding during cold weather can be harmful, but I believe that is long term health issues. Anyone know if feeding could result in almost instant death? Say within a week or so of eating during a cooler temps?

Scott, I limit my feeding greatly in winter. I have found a couple of big male BG dead a couple days after feeding. Maybe they gorged and couldn't digest? The biggest ones do seem to get the most pellets. I only feed after a couple of unseasonably warm days when I can see the BG coming to me when I walk up. But, I am quite a way NW of you.

I keep a tropical aquarium that is heavily planted. I constantly check the water conditions. ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and ph. each can cause stress on aquarium fish. some handle certain conditions better than others. Would there be any test that i could do on the pond water that might point me in the right direction? The only thing I can think of is my pond may be too fish heavy. does overcrowding cause oxygen issues only, or do other things such as ammonia and nitrates come in to play? Also, would oxygen be an issue this time of year?

You're a bit obsessive with the heavily planted aquarium. It will take care of itself unless overpopulated. All the stuff you speak of can happen. Oxygen is an issue any time of the year. If you have ice cover and no aerator, good chance you'll have dead fish.

BG and LMB have about the same water quality requirements. From a history of your pond my guess is that carrying capacity is the issue with BG. If so more harvest might be in order. Auburn has a fish disease service. Might want to contact them as they are in your state.

I am a bit obsessive with the aquarium. I went to Indonesia for 2.5 weeks and came home to all my adult guppies dead. I had an auto feeder and all I can think of is that I overfed. I have since bought a few expensive breeds of guppies and just want to make sure they make it. Plus I am self employed and kind of bored this time of year. Too cold and wet to do much asphalt work. Aquarium gives me something to do.

About the pond, it is rare to get any ice on ponds here in Alabama. It happens, but not so far this year.

Auburn University fisheries is only 30 minutes from me. My friend and I just had this conversation an hour ago. I need to call and see what they could do. Maybe a water sample or take them a dead fish.

About carrying capacity-I never really understood how come stocking rates seem way higher than actual carrying capacity (adult fish) of a pond. I stocked 2500 bg and 150 bass. I have already caught a bg that weighed 1.9 lbs. Lets just say the bg average 1 lb and the bass average 3 lbs.(which some are much larger), that would be way higher than what a 2 acre pond can carry. I know we take fish from the pond from time to time, but even waiting a year or so before harvesting it would seem the pond would be way over the carrying capacity.

scott69, where did you get the stocking recommendation of 2500BG and 150LMB??

American sportfish in Montgomery,Al

WOW!!! I've never seen a recommendation of more than 250-300 BG/acre unless it was by someone that was also selling the fish.
75 LMB per acre might be possible if conditions were perfect I guess but 40-50 seems more appropriate.
I'm completely missing something on these stocking rates I guess.
I should be considering I'm from a different part of the country, but that sure seems extremely high to me..??
EDIT: I went and looked up your source. I assumed it was a publication..It is a supplier, I will apologize for my comments about "recommendations from a supplier", but I will not apologize for believing that is too high.. I believe it is.

Snipe, i think the rates were high knowing i wanted a trophy bg pond and not bass. I think most suppliers/pond managers in our part of the country are just geared toward trophy lmb ponds and it goes in one ear and out the other when someone like me wants big bluegill. American sportfish are highly thought of, they are the ones that trademarked the Tiger bass. The other group in our area is Southeastern pond management. just for the heck of it, i just looked at their website and they recommend 1000-2000 per acre of bg.

i really wish i would have went with very light stocking rates on the bg.

FWIW I have often seen stocking recommendations here on the forum of 20 to 30 BG per LMB.

I just spoke with an ext agent at Auburn University fisheries group. He said it is most likely a sickness related to bg only since the bass are fine. He said it could be anything from a bacterial infection, virus, fungus, or parasite. He said it happens even at their fisheries ponds. He said rarely is it a concern because it doesn't affect all the fish and bg spawn so much that the population always bounces back. He said a fish could be tested, but it is very expensive (how much $, he didn't say). He also said even if we did find out what the cause is, the treatment method would basically be the same, which is: remove any dead or sick ones.

He said not to worry about winter feeding. make sure not to feed them more than they can eat in 10 minutes.

Also said that he was most certain it isn't an oxygen issue since the largest bass are doing ok.

Very interesting.. I guess I'm just not familiar enough with southern rates. Looks like a lot of that carrying capacity is being based on loading up on fertilizer also. I guess my personal thought is I'd rather stay on the lower side and error on the low side vs. teeter tottering on the brink of a crash any time there is a slight droop somewhere in the food chain. Just seems to me like they are hanging a lot out on a limb?? Good for me to learn too..
And I was questioning my 125 RES I put in my 3/4 ac pond.. :-))

I've always bought into the 1,000 BG fingerlings per acre. Then add bass, 100 per acre, when there are enough groceries to feed them. It takes a heckuva lot of BG to feed bass. But, in warmer climates like Texas, bass need to be culled after the second or third year. They can pretty well decimate forage.

Number of BG or panfish/acre to stock is dependent on ones goals. "It all depends" as my limnology professor always taught. If one is interested in growing trophy BG then the stocking ratio changes to a lower BG:LMB ratio.

Bill is correct. BG/LMB stocking numbers using 2-3 inch fish are highly dependent. The most recent BG to LMB stocking numbers for a LMB oriented pond (not necessarily trophy) in the south is 2500 to 3500 per acre. This has the effect of moving the time at which the LMB start encountering food shortages (small skinny LMB syndrome) out an additional year +. LMB stocking numbers are also variable ranging from 100 down to 30 per acre based on goals. Carrying capacity in the south is reached rather quickly 18 to 24 mths and at that point you are managing how the capacity is divided between sizes/year classes of fish. Much like balancing on the edge of a knife blade.

The old 1000/100 was originally based on 1930 era food production by USDA data and not for recreational ponds.

Update. I have been lowering the pond for a week now. It is down about 40+ inches now. I have pulled probably 150 fish out dead this week. some are floating and some are on the bottom out of reach. some are covered in mud and silt and decayed badly, other are still dieing daily. I hope to be able to have a fresh specimen in the morning and I am taking it to Auburn University. They have agreed to check them for me. The fish can't be dead longer than 10 hours. I was able to scoop one this evening and put in a cage. Hopefully it will still be alive in the morning, if not I will try to find another sick one near the shore.

Dang Scott sorry to hear about the fish dieing, looks like some prime stock

Glad to hear you are taking one to a pro. Hopefully, they will be able to give a definitive answer and recommend a path forward.

Snipe, in your area, your pond is very fertile. You could easily stock 3000 to 4000 BG per acre, and 100 LMB without any problem at all. I know you work with some state pros, yet states are usually VERY conservative, and most stocking information is based on books written more than 75 years ago, and little modern day empirical evidence that is repeatable, often gets little more than scoffed at by many a state fishery biologist...some states stay abreast of change, but those are in the minority. A lot of the reasons for an abhorrence to modern methods and change could be due to concentrating on "native" fish species over sport fishing

Rainman, I'd say you are correct on how I think.. I guess I've been trained to think a certain way. This is new territory to me being "unleashed".
Having these high stocking rates and as ewest commented above about "balancing on a knife blade", this situation requires very proactive, hands-on management practices. That is something we don't have when managing a public fishery.
Such as..if a 15" min is set, the fish will start leaving at 12"..
As you probably well know, managing public waters is more about managing the people vs the fish.
I do the best I can and this knowledge here on private, controlled ponds is new to me so good chance I'll stick both feet in my mouth on occasion.

Goals and location make a difference. There are often several ways to reach the same place.

Sorry about your situation Scott. From What I see I think you have a problem not caused entirely by crowding. It is a guess however. Please let us know what the biologists find.

Snipe I am no pro but have been reading on this forum for a few years and manage 5 ponds of my own.

Keep in mind those stocking rates are starting with a blank slate. No fish present when stocked. Here is the thinking, based on what I have read here on PBF and gathered from other posters, as well as some limited experience of my own.

Stocking a relative small number of BG can actually lead to more fish rather than less. In some very old research papers, stocking only as few as 5 pair of BG produced enough offspring to completely provide fish to reach carrying capacity of the pond quickly. In fact, stocking more initially actually led to lower overall fish populations, the reason being the initial stocked fish became predators for newly hatched fish of the first and subsequent spawns. So the 5 pairs produced more spawned reproduction than say if the a hundred fish were initially stocked, because of lowered predation.

The other thing that comes into play is the first fish stocked are usually the best growth rates the pond has to offer. Later spawns have difficulty attaining the growth rate of the initial stockers because the pond quickly reaches carrying capacity and food becomes a limiting factor. So if nice BG are desired, if you stock a small number you will have a small number of nice BG but stocking larger numbers will produce larger numbers of those quick growing nice size BG.

Not sure if I explained myself very well. But low stocking numbers can actually lead to over population. Stocking correct numbers for the goal desired can start out with the correct balance desired.

Those are a couple reasons I have picked up and the actual stocking numbers depend on if LMB are the main goal, BG are the main goal, balanced pond main goal, etc. In a private pond where desirable size fish are wanted in the shortest time possible, it can be looked at differently than a large public lake with different dynamics.

That is just my non-professional non-expert opinion. Now the experts can give you the real answer.

FWIW the few LMB/BG fisheries I manage for clients I recommended a 250 RES 1,000-1,500 BG 25-100 LMB/AC ratio depending on goals, supplemental feeding, etc. Looks like I'm relying on some of the older data for those numbers, might want to nudge it up a tad.

For cool water species, again based on goals for the fishery and harvest plans, I recommend 250-500 RES, 250-500 YP, 25-100 SMB, 25-50 WE, 10-25 HSB/AC. With our recent HBCP success, I'm trying to determine ideal stocking numbers for them, but I'm guessing somewhere around 100-200/AC again depending on harvest, supplemental feeding programs and forage base type/management. Every fishery is unique in these respects, but that's a summary of how I work with my clients.

As ewest stated, there are often many ways to attain a desired goal. Combine that statement with what Bill Cody says often, "It all depends". The latter statement is the most important! It all depends....on your unique pond, your unique goals, your unique fertility, your unique desire to commit to time managing your BOW...it ALL depends, Whether you choose your own management strategies or have a professional help/do it for you, what your desires and goals are will be the leading factor on what is done.

What is the AC abbreviation for?

I am going to guess AC is acre.

I am going to guess AC is acre. [/quote]

That would make sense. Thanks!

UPDATE- Here is what she emailed me today. I will be taking her a water sample asap.

We’re still waiting from some test results but this is what we know so far:
- monogenean (parasites) infestation on gills but within what we consider normal for fish living in a pond
- gills had hyperplasia (were swollen)
- liver of the largest fish was pale, suggesting a systemic disease
We isolated a bacteria culture from that liver. We haven’t confirmed the bacterial species yet but we should have the results soon.
Overall, based on what we know so far and in my opinion, I’m leaning towards a water quality issue that is making the fish susceptible to a bacterial infection. I believe the bacteria we have is a species of Aeromonas, a typical opportunistic pathogen that doesn’t cause problems when fish are maintain in good conditions. It is unusual for this time of the year, too cold, but…. that’s what I can tell you for now.
We forgot to ask you for a water sample. If you don’t mind to stop by again and bring us ~ 1 L of water, we can check it for you.

I’ll let you know the definitive diagnosis before the weekend.

Scott...visually, your water sure looks healthy, nice phytoplanton bloom rolling and I see no evidence of excess nutrients by way of FA...and your BG are some of the finest I've ever seen, and I've seen A LOT of BG nationwide on here, in person, on BigBluegill.com etc. This is the first episode of a fishery wide lethal event targeting seemingly robust and super healthy fish that I've ever witnessed, so it's been very educational for myself and likely everyone else. I am really sorry for your situation, but considering your ability to grow amazing BG fast, it probably couldn't happen to a better guy in that respect as you'll be back at it in no time. One question...are these CNBG? If so, do you think their lower tolerance to cold water could have something to do with their susceptibility to an infection? If they are CNBG, are you considering stocking NBG to perhaps hedge your bets in case you get another polar event in the coming years? Scientists say these weather/temp extremes will become more common...

John, I appreciate you taking the time to expain your understanding of that scenario and I must say you've opened my eyes to something I've never really thought about and that is the fact that 99.9% of my experience is from "corrective" actions and management in an existing fishery. I have very seldom had much of an opportunity to start at zero..
With that said, I guess with my first time private pond and the research I done on my own is what led me to find this forum and why I joined.. I need to listen more and talk less!

And Scott, I hope they find an answer to whats going on and you'll be on your way to fixing the issue.

What type of feed are you giving them? Is it free of mold? Old? What is the protein/fat ratio. Carbohydrate percentage?

Thanks for the update on the results so far. I think Scott has ( he should confirm) a hypertrophic pond (highly productive water). If you couple that with extensive feeding problems can arise (like running a car engine at full out for too long). Stress and heat (productivity) can result in to fast of a growth rate and liver issues. Stress allows in other vectors like described. To add to this fast temp changes lower (if this occurred) can cause lipid imbalance in fish which can lead to death. The liver is involved in lipid (fat) processing etc.


But like TJ I have not seen this where fish are in such good condition. TJ they are CNBG.

Could it be possible.........these fish are a victim of their own success?

Follow along with my thinking process and see if the logic makes sense.

TJ said those dead fish looked like they were in great condition. I agree. I would LOVE to have BG look like those (when they are alive of course, not the dead ones).

But are they really in good health condition? Or are they actually obese? Would we look at a 400# human and say "wow, what great condition and rate of gain they had?".

The fish look pretty fat to me. A certain amount of fat going into the winter is desirable for the fish to survive. But is more always better?

What if the fish were simply too fat, the fat stiffened up in extremely cold weather, and the fish muscles couldn't move so the fish suffocated?

Not saying this is the case. Just a hypothesis from a non expert.

Edit: ewest posted his reply while I was typing this post. What he said.

Not saying this is the case but here is some info on the process.

The ability of a fish to alter its lipid composition when placed in colder water is one factor that determines survival. The death of these fish is thought to be a result of the fat that the goldfish consume or produce (Mitchell 1990). Goldfish with high concentrations of saturated body fat are less tolerant of temperature change than fish with high concentrations of unsaturated body fat. Similarly, rainbow trout Oncorhynhcus mykiss that have been fed diets high in saturated fats stiffen and die when placed in cold water (Mitchell 1990). In these fish, the fat apparently hardens in the colder water, causing the fat-impregnated muscles to stiffen and the fish to become exhausted and lose movement. This differs between species and likely between BG and CNBG.

Lots of good discussion and learning possibilities in this thread.

Scott, was there a sudden cold snap that lasted a few days to week around the event of BG dying? I don't think that would influence water temperature too much but I could mistaken especially if ice was allowed to form.

A sharp cold snap in early October 2017 was followed by fungus infection on almost all the large CNBG at my BOW. Nothing else was affected, including smaller CNBG. My hypothesis is that large CNBG were in shallows spawning so were most vulnerable to temp change.

Didn't happen in 2018, thank goodness.

I can't speak for Scott, but knowing him I suspect he wouldn't approach something as critical as the health of his fishery with tendencies to cut corners...so he's likely using AM, Skretting, or Optimal. The BG necropsy should yield some interesting data regarding condition of internal organs...even if it were a pellet nutrition derived issue, isn't it unusual all these fish would expire simultaneously? I fed AM exclusively for 8 years and never witnessed anything even close to this...lot's of factors must be involved per Eric leading to a kill event?

Been reading this topic and I don't have a clue as to what happened or would I even a guess. Lots of theories by a lot of smart people. Hope someone figures it out. I feel bad for Scott. He has spent a lot of time, effort and $$$$$ to have nice BG and then see that happen to them.

Me too, BPM - but a guy like Scott will interpret this temporary setback as a direct challenge and he will likely come back with improvements to the available shoreline following drawdown and BG 3x the original size...maybe a zip-line, too. He's wired like that...I suspect a lot of us are.

tj- i took water samples to au university today so hopefully we will hear back soon. Here is kinda my guess what is happening. my pond is heavily stocked and fish are heavily fed. 2 years ago i noticed my fish didn't eat one afternoon, i got to looking and found all of them crowded in the upper end trying to get a sip of fresh water trickling in. i jumped into action and started 2 trash pumps to running and another pump that i can pull water from a nearby stream. i lost a few large bg that night, but not many. now this past summer 2018, i fertilized a few times but, didn't get a good bloom. not sure what month, but i used 30-0-0 fertilizer on my yard. a week or so later a large rain came and of course washed some in the pond. next thing you know the pond was scary green. sometime along in the summer i saw a few dead bg. i think oxygen probably got a little low. more than likely more died than i saw and got the water out of whack. i think since then it has been a snowball effect. more die and the ammonia has spiked more and more with each death. the fish are cnbg. at this point i am not sure if i will have to restock or not. i have a ton of little 1-2" bg around the shore. we are having a really warm week here so i began trying to feed a little. i see some 5-6" fish feeding, but not many. i think i have lost all of the adults, but my biggest hope is there are some left that just aren't showing themselves. possibly some too sick to eat, but might pull through. i am keeping my fingers crossed for that.

i use purina aquamax 600. always ordered fresh. i have fed a little optimal from time to time. in the peak of feeding season my feeder goes off 4 times a day. also i usually walk down there in the evening and hand feed a little just to watch them.

here in alabama we rarely see ice form on a pond. cold snaps for us are upper 20's for a night time low for a few days and then back to 40 and 50 degree nights. we do go through spells for a week or so where we will have frost every morning. it was 80 here today.

you are right about all the effort put into growing these big bg. the only thing i didn't do is remove enough along the way. i keep more than we can eat int he freezer, but i don't think that was enough. it is rare that people ask me to fish here. i invite people often, but people just aren't into fishing like they used to be. no one wants to take them home to clean and eat. people are too busy, lazy, or interested in other hobbies.

3x the original size would be awesome, haha. last spring my friend and i were trying to catch some culls (females) to move to his pond. he caught one that weighed 1.5 lbs.. a few months later i caught one that weighed 1.9 lbs. mine was a female and surely she had eggs, but she didnt have that look like she had just swallowed a golf ball. she was just a big fish! no doubt some of these would have topped the 2 lb mark. the one i posted here while back dead that i layed on the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket was a stud.
alabama holds the world record bg. so that means i can't just shoot for the state record, i have to aim for the world record..it sure would be interesting to put about 100 males in my pond and no females. fed them well and see what happens.

I took three fish to Auburn University to be examined and 3 water samples. The water samples were from the pond, from the stream entering the pond, and the stream below the dam that i used to top off the pond during dry times. Below is the final answer that I received.

we confirmed the bacterial isolate as Aeromonas hydrophila, a common opportunistic pathogen. We didn’t see anything unusual in the water samples although the pH was a little low (6.3) but that could be due to organic decomposition occurring between the time you took the sample and the time we measured it.
From our analysis, I can confirm that at least one of the fish had a systemic bacterial infection but because of the nature of the pathogen, I won’t recommend antibiotic treatment.

I’m sticking to my gut feeling that you had too much organic matter in the pond due to either high stocking rates or too much feed (although you probably weren’t feeding them in January, right?). It is important that you remove as many fish as you can (and bury them, don’t leave them out in the open) and try to reduce the organic content in the pond (I know that’s easier to say than to do).
Be careful when you handle the dead fish (wear protective gear). Aeromonas hydrophila can cause infections in humans, it’s rare but it can happen if for example you puncture yourself with a fin/spine.

Dang Scott, sorry to hear that! sounds like it's fixable though so all is not lost.

Scott, are you going to electroshock survey now or what's the plan going forward?

Could it be that you reached carrying capacity and that plus fertile water resulted in overcrowding stress and bacterial infection ? Same as when deer get too abundant around feeders and spread pathogens. I assume they did not indicate fatty livers.

So sorry to hear about your results, Scott. If you dont have any on hand, I'd suggest you acquire at least a couple of cloverleaf traps and start trying to reduce numbers. You could avoid handling them completely if you've got a hole ready to dump them into, but you could also selectively cull out what you want to keep. Sounds like you may want to invest in some good rubber gloves, too.

jludwig-I don't think I'll do any electrofishing. I am just going to watch feeding activity around the feeder. If we have a warm spell for a week or so they should really turn on at the feeder. my gut feeling is I have lost most of the adults. I have seen some coming to feed in the last week that looked like 6 inches or so. there are very few of them, but I don't think they are used to the feeder. They never had a chance while the big ones were alive and taking most of the pellets.

Ewest- I think that is exactly it. Plus the 30-0-0 fertilizer runoff back in the summer. Water really got green quick a week or so after rain fell on the fresh fertilizer. I just don't see how it could keep from being overcrowded. Stocked 2500 bg and nearly everything we caught was well over a pound. weighed one that was 1.5 lbs and another 1.9lbs. No telling what some of these weighed that we removed that were dead. I think the ammonia from the fertilizer and decaying fish caused a snowball effect quick.

Mike-We aren't handling any of the fish, just mainly raking them out. the buzzards are pretty much living here now. I am not too worried about exposure to them. What is the largest fish you all have caught in a clover leaf trap?

Scott, I have the vertical openings cut to about 6" top to bottom and about 1 1/4" wide. I built my own and have trapped BG around 6". If you've been feeding pellets, that's what I'd use for bait, but flour tortillas, bread, dry dog food all work to varying degrees of success.

If the dead numbers are that heavy , it sounds like you probably don't need a trap as mother nature is reducing your herd already. Dang man...I really feel for you.

Good news is the genetics are still there and a new crop will grow quickly. If you still have most of your LMB they will be thinning the heard. Watch your predation numbers.

I didn't lose any lmb or res. I assume the bacterial infection was just something the bg were susceptible to. I really need a week of warm weather to see what comes up at feeding time. I feel like the bass are going to be kinda hungry for a while. I never caught a bg under 8 inches that I can remember. I know some are there and I have seen a few feed recently that look like they may be 6 inches or so. Plenty of fingerlings around the shore on warm evenings. I am curious how I will be able to get some past the size the bass can eat. I do have a fish cage. I may try to grow 100-200 off in there and release them. I am not going to add any until I see what comes to feeder come warmer weather.

Could you throw some temporary shore line cover out? Maybe cedar tree tied to a rope so easily removed when no longer needed?

I don't care how old this research is ... it's definitely true, repeatable, and will never be "out of date".