I have been looking for a source of PK shrimp

Has anyone ordered shrimp from this person? If so what was your experience. Did the shrimp arrive alive and healthy?

Also I want to make sure that they are truly PK shrimp so they will survive the winter in Iowa. Can anyone confirm they are PK shrimp and not Palaemonetes paludosus.

From his pictures one cannot recognize the species. One needs to clearly and closely see the rostrum to distinguish between P.kadiakensis and P.paludosus. Since he says the the source pond gets ice cover, then I would trust the seller to have the correct specie name. Lower temperature survival limit of P. paludosus is 50F. A typical pond that gets ice cover will have near bottom water under ice temps of 39F.

For your complete satisfaction that you received the true P.kadiakensis put a couple(2-3) of them in a jar of pond water and slowly decrease the temperature to 40F. Put the jar in the refrigerator. If the shirmp survive for a few days in the 40F water they are P.kadiakensis.

Then if those stocked do not survive or flourish in your pond then it was a habitat problem and not because they were the wrong species. Remember you can not expect pheasants and quail to thrive in a bare or sparse field. They need AMPLE proper habitat and refuge areas from predators to flourish - same with grass shrimp.

If you order some of his shrimp please return with your feedback and keep us updated as to their progress in your pond/s. Others will be helped by your experiences.

I just bought 50. Ill do the refrigerator test as soon as I get them and let you guys know what happened.

Maybe don't put the "ALL" in the fridge test in case some other circumstance happens other than just cold that kills them,,,

Thanks for the information. Putting a few in the refrigerator to determine if they are the right species is a great idea. Another question. How deep of a pond will the shrimp need to survive the winter. I ask because my property has a 2,000 square foot puddle/pond that is only a foot or two deep. I assume it used to be a little bigger cattle watering hole. It doesn't have an outlet pipe and small dam has a gulley cut through it that has lowered the water level about two feet. I would like to turn this into a forage pond that I could have pk shrimp and maybe fathead minnows in. I could then net some and add them to my 1.5 acre pond as forage. The larger pond has a healthy population of bluegill, largemouth, and catfish so I don't think the shrimp will last long in it.

Yes it is. I'm supposed to get them today. Ill put 3-4 in the fridge for a few days and the rest in an aquarium. Ill let everyone know what happens.

I got some last fall. Only a few, so I am not sure how they did. Not sure if they would be active now in my area or when to look for them. The fellow that supplied them seems like a nice guy. Good luck!

Put 10-12 g.shrimp in your puddle pond. If the puddle pond does not freeze solid they will survive. Consider having a backhoe come in, spend 30 minutes, and deepen one area or end of the puddle pond to 3-4ft. This will be a winter refuge for the grass shrimp and keep it from completely drying up.

I just order 50 shrimp tonight. I will let you know when I get them and how a few survive in the refrigerator. I realized the image couldn't be viewed so I will try again.

http://photobucket.com/confirmation?token=7u1Dt2WxMp%2Fvmthx%2FouCjUldhKG6WXjUB47U11rUdho0Ht7DsoA2RS4O5NV6%2FqaFpo2zTgZ8XmxM2dKt7RgkbEGxQ%2Brl5xtC

Trying to post the picture again.


[img][IMG]http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah93/cramelonpics/landaerial3_zpsnqa4ym97.jpg[/img][/img]

Question - Do you think rainbow darters would impact PK-shrimp as the only fish in a small pond fed by an aresian well? I am thinking they may take the small ones.

Thanks. I'll hold off on adding any fish until I know I have the PK's established in multiple BOWs. I need to get out after dark with a flashlight and see if I can spot any.

Does anyone know if frogs are a serious predator of grass shrimp?

I would guess not based on the way their tongues are used to catch prey, unless the shrimp spend time with parts of their bodies above the water surface.

OK some frogs eat Gammarus so maybe I am a bad guesser:

http://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/zoology/issues/zoo-07-31-1/zoo-31-1-12-0602-9.pdf

Hows a guy in Ontario Canada able to get his hands on some to start a population in pools with plants?

The link above states the seller will not ship to Canada.

Cheers Don.

FWIW I've read that the American Bullfrog is unique among N. American frogs in that it will eat any prey it can fit in its mouth, above or below the surface. I know for a fact they will eat small fish. So IMO they will eat grass shrimp if the opportunity arises.

I am not aware that bullfrogs capture food underwater.

Sorry for the confusion Bill. I was saying that bullfrogs eat submerged prey, not that bullfrogs eat prey while they are submerged.

(Cardini, F. (1974). Specializations of the Feeding Response of the Bullfrog, Rana catesbeiana, for the Capture of Prey Submerged in Water. M.S. Thesis, U. of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA)

These studies revealed the bullfrog's diet to be unique among North American ranids in the inclusion of a large percentage of aquatic animals, such as fish, tadpoles, ram's horn snails, and dytiscid beetles. Bullfrogs can capture large, strong prey because of the powerful grip of their jaws after the initial ranid tongue strike. The bullfrog is able to make allowance for light refraction at the water-air interface by striking at a position posterior to the target's perceived location. The comparative ability of bullfrogs to capture submerged prey, compared to that of the green frog, leopard frog, and wood frog (L. clamitans, L. pipiens, and L. sylvaticus, respectively) was also demonstrated in laboratory experiments

I am not convinced that bullfrogs will eat enough grass shrimp to impact the grass shrimp numbers. Fish will eat a whole lot more shrimp compared to bullfrogs.

IMO you are 100% correct that's why I just posted bullfrogs would eat grass shrimp if the opportunity presents itself. I doubt many grass shrimp come in range.

I have a small garden pond that I cold put grass shrimp in, if I can get grass shrimp, but the pond supports a few bullfrogs and other frogs much of the year. They have already shown up. In a larger pond I wouldn't worry much about the frogs, but in this small enclosure, I think the frogs could grab them.

That would make these two pictures kind of hard to explain.

Post containing pictures with 2 bullfrogs eating FHM

Edit: post 408453 at top of the page

post #408453 has the pictures in that link of SNRUB above, if you like me were having a hard time finding the pictures.

Thanks, I edited my post to include your information.

I thought linking to the post was better than re-posting the pictures because the accompanying explanation might also be informative.

The shrimp arrived today. They were alive and in good shape. I released all but two into the pond. The other two are in a container setting outside. It is currently 45 degrees with a forecast low of 42. If they survive that it should verify they are PK shrimp. I will let you know how they are doing tomorrow.

How did they do?

The shrimp survived the cold weather and are doing good. I am going to add them to my aquarium.

Thank you for doing the confirmatory experiment!

Bill Cody - I have a TON of scuds in my lake. Would trying to establish these shrimp be worthwhile or unnecessary?

3 of mine have been in the fridge going on 4 days now (fridge is set at 40 degrees) so I can also confirm that these guys are cold tolerant.

they are probably about to get slammed with orders..LOL

I would not add grass shrimp(PK) if you have a good population of scuds (amphipods - Gammarus). I would prefer to have the scuds compared to the PK shrimp. Both utilize basically the same niche.

10-4, thanks!!

WBuffetJr I think is referring to a different scud Gammarus fasciatus than those that live in LA as noted by 'ryjohn'. Below I review the similar food habits of both G.fasciatus and PK shrimp (mississippi grass shrimp Palaemonetes kadiakensis). The feeding niches overlap and both can be closely associated with the bottom areas or in habitats above the bottom.

G.fasciatus prefers unpolluted, clear, cold waters, including springs, streams, pools, ponds, and lakes. They prefer highly oxygenated, shallow, still areas, with lots of vegetation or debris for coverage. Many scientists categorize them as cold water stenotherms, meaning that they require a narrow range of cold temperatures in order to survive
These amphipods prefer benthic regions of water bodies because they feed on the detritus, zooplankton and micro plantae (algae and diatoms) found there as well as the feces of Dreissena species (freshwater mussels). They are categorized as scavengers, and though they eat meat, they very rarely attack living animals to feed (though they will eat newly dead aquatic animals). Recent research has indicated that types of food consumed may shift throughout the life cycle, with smaller individuals feeding mainly on detritus and larger individuals having a more varied diet. ("Gammarus fasciatus", 2013; Bronmark and Hansson, 1998; Clemans, 1950; Limén, et al., 2005; Meglitsch and Schram, 1991; Pennak, 1989; Summers, et al., 1997).

Grass Shrimp
As epibenthic predators and benthic sediment disturbers, grass shrimp alter infaunal community structure (Bell and Coull 1978; Knieb and Stiven 1982).
The diet of eastern grass shrimp is dominated by algae (diatoms and green algae), but they also consume vascular plants, detritus, aquatic insects, and other benthic coarse particulate organic matter. Diatoms that glass shrimp eat include species in the genera Fragilaria, Nivicula, Stephanodiscus, Gomphonema, Synedra, and Cymbella. Examples of green algae consumed include species in the genera Cosmarium, Closterium, and Scenedesmus. In laboratory conditions, these shrimp were observed feeding on aquatic weeds. Insects they feed on include mayfly nymphs (Baetidae) and dipteran larvae in the families Chironomidae, Heleidae, Chaoboridae, and Culicidae. (Beck and Cowell, 1976).
These delicate crustaceans feed on a variety of very small invertebrates, plankton, and algae, and on various kinds of organic detritus. They often eat algae and other small organisms that grow upon the surfaces of submerged aquatic plants. The larger plants offer them shelter from predators.
As detritivores, grass shrimp aid in the mechanical breakdown of refractory organic material such as fibrous plant materials, as well as assimilate the associated m i c r o f l o r a , m i c r o - fauna, and fungi (Adams and Angelovic 1970). The assimilation of dissolved organic matter asorbed to finely divided particulate matter such as clay particles is important in grass shrimp nutrition (Odum and Heald 1972). Although grass shrimp often live among aquatic macrophytes (Adams and Angelovic 1970; Livingston et al. 1976; Heck and Orth 1980; Morgan 1980; Coen et al. 1981; Gore et al. 1981), there is little evidence that the macrophyte structure is actually consumed. More likely, grass shrimp eat and assimilate the epiphytic , microalgae that coat the plant structure (Morgan 1980). Grass shrimp also are predators of meiofauna and small 0ligochaetes, nematodes. As epibenthic predators and sediment disturbers, grass shrimp alter infaunal community structure (Bell and Coull 1978; Knieb and Stiven 1982).

Went out to the artesian pond around five this morning with a flashlight. After some time, I saw the tell-tale jerky movement of a scud/shrimp along the bottom of the mostly algae-covered pond. Just one, but all we added were the few PK's last fall. It only looked 3/4" long, but the pond has not had any scuds added. I am just glad that the somewhat unique water conditions are suitable for their survival. Hopefully, they will reproduce and build up before we get a big flood.

I bought a few from this Ebayer. Hoping to establish a breeding population in a small, unpopulated, forage pond on the NY/PA border with full ice-over during most winters.

I installed about 200 into a 1/4acre nursery pond that didn't have any other fish in it. The shrimp were all filled with eggs when I installed them about a month ago. I haven't seen a lot of activity but the pond went from light clear green to a muddy water. . I'm pretty sure it's from the shrimp but can't 100% confirm. I'll try the flashlight trick. Anybody know how fast they grow? I plan on seining in June or July to see what's going on.

Just checked my very small fishless pond where I added PK shrimp last fall and saw no sign of them.

Hate to necro an old thread, but was curious how everyone was doing with their eBay shrimp.

Stocked 1,000 fall 2018, all seemed in fairly good shape. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any since stocking. Granted, I haven't looked hard, but surely by now I'd have seen some.

Probably not ideal pond for them. Low hardness & alkalinity, water viz near 40 inches most of the time. Shame I couldn't pull it off, though.

I put 20 in my pond two summers ago.

Now there are thousands of them.

What do you have in their for vegetation? How about predators?

Until the Great Muskrat Invasion of 2020 I had APW, bladderwort, arrowhead, cattails, mud plantain, and various other rooted and floating veggies.
Now there is very little plant life. The cattails and arrowhead are starting to come back, and there is some sort of little rush grass that grows in very
shallow water, but not much else.

What I do have is 100+ cedar trees that I put in before the pond filled back up after the renovation.
RES, BG, YP, SMB, HSB

That said, the grass shrimp only had 50 baby sunfish to contend with for the first summer, and most of those fish were in a cage until October.

I ordered a small batch and most arrived dead due to 3 day delay in USPS transport during COVID. Got a free second shipment (ebay seller was awesome to communicate with and very much worthy of others patronizing his efforts). PUt that in and hoped for the best. WE have lots of cruising golden shiners, spotfin shiners and perch and almost no vegetation. Put them in on the side of the pond with some overhanging sedges/rushes and hoped for the best. Now we have scads of baby SFS and about 1/5 of the pond is covered in FA giving lots of cover. I may wait till weather cools and try again.

I'm more concerned now about water quality. I think these critters need a lot more hardness to feed their need for calcium than my pond can offer. My water turns over by rainwater runoff and ground water inflow. Ground water is pretty low in hardness which is great for my water softener but not so great for crayfish, scuds and shrimp which seem to not do so well.

Interesting observations from both of you.

Will be interesting to see how those populations hold up with the vegetation reduced and larger numbers of predators.

I am considering attempting to start some before I get predators stocked, we have tons of limestone around here, I may add some limestone rock areas before I put them in. Would think that would help the crays also.

Awesome replies as always. My pond should be done soon, and I want to put a lot of effort into forage diversification, and these shrimp seem to be the ticket.

@Canyoncreek - I was reading recently about adding wood ash to your pond to raise the hardness/calcium levels. I wonder if that would be an option. Wood ash contains around 20% calcium and raises pH in the same way ag lime does. If your pond turns over often, it might take a lot to make a difference, though.

I always thought my fish were eating them but of course can't be sure as I didn't stock them in any huge number either.

I think they do prefer certain kinds of grass/weeds as the ebay seller did say he had to find them in a certain type of vegetation in local bodies of water.

But the water characteristics also play a big role in their survival. I would test your water. Of course adding the limestone for cover for crayfish is good too.

Many here would warn you to put a crayfish predator in before crayfish especially if you are going to give them lots of hiding places in the limestone. Once crayfish get ahead of your predators and have places to hide it can be very tough to establish any vegetation and the predators will not catch up with your crayfish numbers.

Another order of action might be.
test water first
if it could stand more alkalinity and harness add limestone
add forage fish, scuds, shrimp, smaller forage etc
add bass (if that is your predator for crayfish)
add crayfish last

My predators will be HSB and Blue Cats, so I'm still undecided about whether or not to add crayfish or not. The shrimp seem like a good idea to feed the forage fish though, and any YoY Blue Cats that I may get.