If I were holding some small sunfish over the winter, does anybody have any suggestions about a chemical that could be added to the water that would be completely safe for fish, but would decrease the possibility of fungal and bacterial infections?
Thanks!
NaCl!
Keep it at about .2 percent ( aka 2ppt or 2000 mg/l.)
As you probably know it's not actually used to treat fungus and bacterial infections but it will keep the stress levels down to keep their immune systems up to par.
I've also become a big believer in potassium permanganate at 2 to 4 mg/ for about 4 hours to eliminate gram negative bacteria in the tank and external parasites if fish have problems. Just make sure the biofilter is offline and you start at the low end.
Had some serious bacterial and possible parasite issues with some tilapia I had fedexed overnight recently, and the PP in conjunction with a broad spectrum antibiotic finally did the job. Also briefly increased the salinity significantly. Thanks to Kellen Weissebach for his expert advice. (Fish are not destined for the table).
We would tread all my uncles tanks with Methylene Blue after we let the fresh water sit over night.
Cheers Don.
So...,let's see...how much salt is that in a 500 gallon tank?
I calculate about 8 lbs of salt per 500 gallons would give you Cecil's recommended 2000 mg/liter.....if I did the math correctly
500 gallons is a big aquarium, very cool. If you are overwintering RES get a heater and keep the temps above at least 60 degrees. RES are very susceptible to fin rot when water temps drop below 55 degrees.
I calculate about 8 lbs of salt per 500 gallons would give you Cecil's recommended 2000 mg/liter.....if I did the math correctly
Depends on how close you want to be Bill.
OTOH it would probably be a good idea to check my math!
I got 8.326 lbs. or 8 lbs. 5.2 oz.
1 mg/l = 0.00378 gms./ gal.
2000 mgl ( 0.2 percent or 2 ppt) = 0.00378 X 2000 = 7.56 gms./ gal.
500 gal. x 7.56 gms. = 3,780 gms. divided by 454 = 8.326 lbs. or 8 lbs. 5.2 oz.
That is if Bruce does not already have some significant salinity in his water supply. I seem to remember at his original ranch the salinity was already 0.5 percent ( 5000 mg/l or 5 ppt). Was that the case Bruce?
Here's an awesome little salt meter that I use and have bought for the high school's that raise fish for me.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KOI-MEDIC-DIGITA...=item2ea94e0464It's $10.00 cheaper on Amazon.
We would tread all my uncles tanks with Methylene Blue after we let the fresh water sit over night.
Cheers Don.
I wouldn't reccomend that stuff for other than ornamental fish. I think it's a proven carcinogen too. Really bad news for the biofilter.
I also read somewhere that centrarchids are sensitive to either methylene blue or malachite green. Can't remember which.
And keep in mind many of the chemicals and some antibiotics that are used on ornamental fish, are not approved for use on other species, especally those that will be consumed.
500 gallons is a big aquarium, very cool. If you are overwintering RES get a heater and keep the temps above at least 60 degrees. RES are very susceptible to fin rot when water temps drop below 55 degrees.
I think that's true with the whole centrachid family although perhaps moreso with redears. Many fish producers will not seine them in cold water.
From my limited experience stress + coldwater = fungal issues. Stress + warmwater = bacterial issues.
From my limited experiece stress + coldwater = fungal issues. Stress + warmwater = bacterial issues.
My exact experience.
That is if Bruce does not already have some significant salinity in his water supply. I seem to remember at his original ranch the salinity was already 0.5 percent ( 5000 mg/l or 5 ppt). Was that the case Bruce?
I think I was even higher salinity than that!
Come see my setup sometime!
Where did you get a 500 gal aquarium? That is a zoo grade size of aquarium. Is it glass on one side or all 4 sides? Must be thick glass.
Last winter I has an ich infestation in my 110 gallon home aquarium, so I thought I would try using pond salt to help the fish out. The odd problem was I wound up causing the Fluval filter's bacteria to die off. I wound up crashing the aquarium since I introduced the salt too quickly into the system. What should have taken days, I did in a few hours and the biological filter did not like it. I lost many fish from this over a short period, and made matters worse.
I never had heard of this problem before, but the evidence in my tests said my filter did die off. Lots of water changing and re-starting the filter finally settled things down, but it was a mess.
So be careful with your salts and keep the level relatively consistent.
Where did you get a 500 gal aquarium? That is a zoo grade size of aquarium. Is it glass on one side or all 4 sides? Must be thick glass.
It's called a 625 gallon poly tank.
Last winter I has an ich infestation in my 110 gallon home aquarium, so I thought I would try using pond salt to help the fish out. The odd problem was I wound up causing the Fluval filter's bacteria to die off. I wound up crashing the aquarium since I introduced the salt too quickly into the system. What should have taken days, I did in a few hours and the biological filter did not like it. I lost many fish from this over a short period, and made matters worse.
I never had heard of this problem before, but the evidence in my tests said my filter did die off. Lots of water changing and re-starting the filter finally settled things down, but it was a mess.
So be careful with your salts and keep the level relatively consistent.
Yeah those little critters are sensitive! They don't like drastic salinity, temperature or lighting changes! Interesting thing is if you can hang on to them year around for a few years they become more mature and durable. Used to start the school bacteria over again each year. Took too long. Now I bring the media home at the end of the school year and feed it ammonia or incorporate it in existing systems. Then I schlup it back when school starts again.
On the other hand I have placed up to 4 cubic feet of the plastic media in a large tub without water for a couple of days because I was moving some from the schools, and didn't have a moving bed tank ready, and they were fine when I cranked them back up with water, air, and a little ammonia for food.
That is if Bruce does not already have some significant salinity in his water supply. I seem to remember at his original ranch the salinity was already 0.5 percent ( 5000 mg/l or 5 ppt). Was that the case Bruce?
I think I was even higher salinity than that!
Come see my setup sometime!
Someday I hope. Too many things going on right now. Adding on to the house to put in a Master Spa pool and exercise room. My aquaculture pole building is taking a back seat for a while.
Just the pool is 28 grand!
But the wife needs to exercise for health reasons and swimming is her best option due to joint issues. We swim in one of the ponds but that's only part of the year. She's lost a decent amount of weight but needs regular exercise to go further. Can't say I won't enjoy the pool either! The parents that work out three days a week that live above my garage are excited too. This will prelude driving to workout.
Apparently your system is an RAS? What is your bilogical and mechanical filtration? DIY or turnkey?
Last winter I has an ich infestation in my 110 gallon home aquarium, so I thought I would try using pond salt to help the fish out. The odd problem was I wound up causing the Fluval filter's bacteria to die off. I wound up crashing the aquarium since I introduced the salt too quickly into the system. What should have taken days, I did in a few hours and the biological filter did not like it. I lost many fish from this over a short period, and made matters worse.
I never had heard of this problem before, but the evidence in my tests said my filter did die off. Lots of water changing and re-starting the filter finally settled things down, but it was a mess.
So be careful with your salts and keep the level relatively consistent.
If you get ich again turn the heat up to 86 degrees and it will get rid of it... I used to have a pet and fish store
I've tried the 86 to 87 degree thing, but it is a planted aquarium. Some plants don't like it that warm and die back or stall growth. Better option than copper based treatments though.
It doesn't matter much now, my pleco has gotten large and is eating my plants. Time to take him to the pet store for someone with plastic plants.
I've tried the 86 to 87 degree thing, but it is a planted aquarium. Some plants don't like it that warm and die back or stall growth. Better option than copper based treatments though.
It doesn't matter much now, my pleco has gotten large and is eating my plants. Time to take him to the pet store for someone with plastic plants.
Have you ever considered native fish? Are you familiar with the NANFA website?
Haven't encountered ich yet with my native fish; knock on wood.
Cody Note: Okay that now makes a lot more sense as to what you are doing. "Aquarium" had me thinking aquarium and not a tank. Consider a heater as Shorty suggested to keep temps adequate for growth.
Just a thought on heaters: my systems run from 250 gallons (fish tank, clarifier, and biofilter) to 350 gallons. I use a 1000 watt aquarium heater and thermostat I get off of Ebay or Amazon and they work just fine. So far I've had several for at least three years. Even if they burn out soon I still got a goid bang for my buck IMHO.
One of teachers at a school I supply a system to bought a much more expensive heater from aquatic ecosystems and it was a piece of junk. Was wired by a licensed electrician and stopped working in a short amount of time. No clue what happened but I dropped in an aquarium heater and it just sits there unplugged.
And 1000 watts is a lot of watts, but mine seem to be off much of the time once the temperature reaches a certain level. My thinking is the higher wattage uses less juice vs. a smaller unit that is continuously running. I could be wrong on that though.
Oops looks like they went up just a little since I last bought one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-Watt-Titani...=item35e56b97bf
I had gotten 50 of the 1500 watt versions of those titanium heaters I'd bought from Aquatic Eco on a package deal...I paid $8ea. Some lasted well, some didn't. One was so well built my grandson almost burned down the house when he plugged it in while it was sitting on a pine end table. There was a haze of smoke and I couldn't find the source....FD used Thermal Imaging to find it...table looked like a cigar was on it and the FD said it was just starting to get flame.
Rex you never live a boring life do you?
If you are heating the water consider using water heater blankets to help insulate the tank and save heat loss.
And a top that is insulated if the basement is colder than the water temp that you want to keep.
If you are heating the water consider using water heater blankets to help insulate the tank and save heat loss.
What's that?!?!
Rex you never live a boring life do you?
Best laugh of the night so far!
Ive actually put together a native tank when I was a kid, it was nice. Just tough to stock. I had sticklebacks and small minnows of various unidentifiable types. It was cool when the sticklebacks got mating colors on. I had a decnt water flow in the tank to simulate a crick.
It is tough to find a good spot to catch them, and tougher yet to find the time to do it. I went lazy and set up a tropical.
No biofilter for me. Just doing an 80% water exchange every week. My water is stellar and doesn't need any treatment. But last year I still had significant fungus problems after the fish had been in cold water for 15 weeks.
If you are heating the water consider using water heater blankets to help insulate the tank and save heat loss.
As long as it doesn't sit on the water like a swimming pool. I could see lots of negatives wirh that.
I once blocked off a small room that had a 300 gallon fish tank with a tarp to save heat and the air became foul. Most likely CO2 probably increased too.
A water heater blanket wraps around the outside of the water heater to help hold in the heat. Faced insulation for in between wall studs would also work as a heater blanket. I don't suggest that you put insulation on top of the water.
OK, perfect. Exactly what I needed to know.
Its threads like this that absolutely fascinate me. The knowledge pooled together here is unbelievable.
OK, perfect. Exactly what I needed to know.
You can just use that reflective bubble wrap type insulation that you can get at a box store. Simple and easy.
As far as heaters, the elements have an "on time" life, if they are any good to begin with, so it's best to get something a bit larger than required so they last longer. It's still going to take the same amount of watts to do the job. I'm gonna try those 1000W bucket heaters from TSC and see how they work.
As far as 80% water change per week, is that in one shot? or continuous throughout the week?
As far as 80% water change per week, is that in one shot? or continuous throughout the week?
That would be all at once. I have been blessed with really good water quality and it doesn't seem to affect the fish at all. They start eating within a couple of hours after the exchange.
As far as 80% water change per week, is that in one shot? or continuous throughout the week?
That would be all at once. I have been blessed with really good water quality and it doesn't seem to affect the fish at all. They start eating within a couple of hours after the exchange.
What about the salt? Are you going to prep some water in advance? What about changing water quality parameters too quickly? Any possibility of accumulation over time?
Do you think there may be some induced stress on a repeated basis?
Look up what a sine wave is and apply this cycle to it.
As far as 80% water change per week, is that in one shot? or continuous throughout the week?
That would be all at once. I have been blessed with really good water quality and it doesn't seem to affect the fish at all. They start eating within a couple of hours after the exchange.
What about the salt? Are you going to prep some water in advance? What about changing water quality parameters too quickly? Any possibility of accumulation over time?
Do you think there may be some induced stress on a repeated basis?
Look up what a sine wave is and apply this cycle to it.
I completely understand where you're going with this. I am trying to put the same amount of salt in every time.
I think that the more frequently I change the water, the more consistent the parameters are going to be. But I do have to be careful about accumulation of the sodium chloride.
As far as 80% water change per week, is that in one shot? or continuous throughout the week?
That would be all at once. I have been blessed with really good water quality and it doesn't seem to affect the fish at all. They start eating within a couple of hours after the exchange.
What about the salt? Are you going to prep some water in advance? What about changing water quality parameters too quickly? Any possibility of accumulation over time?
Do you think there may be some induced stress on a repeated basis?
Look up what a sine wave is and apply this cycle to it.
I completely understand where you're going with this. I am trying to put the same amount of salt in every time.
Water evaporates, salt don't. So when you change water, you'll have to determine the correct dose of fresh water to prepared water with what is remaining in your tank. Easier said than done, but you won't be killing a biofilter if you get it a tad out of whack.
I think that the more frequently I change the water, the more consistent the parameters are going to be. But I do have to be careful about accumulation of the sodium chloride.
I didn't see this post. You'll figure it out.
For what it's worth I do a 20 percent water change in my 250 gallon systems as frequent as every other day to once a week depending on the species and tank load. I could probably get by with less. I once had 75 lbs. of yellow perch in 150 gallons of water and did a once a day water change as a solid back mass of fish made me nervous!
I also flush out around 2 to 4 gallons in the center drain and around it twice a day by opening a knife gate valve on the external stand pipe. Let me tell you that is some foul smelling stuff!
My make up water is premixed with salt, heated, and the iron precipitate filtered out. I've never seen a substantial rise in salinity from evaporation and even if I did it wouldn't be an issue as long as it's gradual.
I have grown both tilapia and bluegills in an outside system in the summer with no salt added as the waste water was used on a nearby raised garden. No health issues whatsoever. The PHD down the road that raises hybrid striped bass for the Chicago gourmet market doesn't use salt either.
That said if given the choice I prefer to add salt.
No biofilter for me. Just doing an 80% water exchange every week. My water is stellar and doesn't need any treatment. But last year I still had significant fungus problems after the fish had been in cold water for 15 weeks.
Yikes that would scare me!
So you don't see ammonia creep up before you do your water change?
What kind of fish load do you have?
No biofilter for me. Just doing an 80% water exchange every week. My water is stellar and doesn't need any treatment. But last year I still had significant fungus problems after the fish had been in cold water for 15 weeks.
Yikes that would scare me!
So you don't see ammonia creep up before you do your water change?
What kind of fish load do you have?
I forgot to mention one extremely important point. I am feeding my fish next to nothing. Maybe 2% of what they'd get in the summer. Just enough to keep them from starving. Of course that could also be leading to some of the fungus problems. I need to feed them enough to keep them from getting sick...but no more.
I will have 40-50 lbs of fish....and have never seen increased ammonia readings. Probably because the fish don't have anything to process.
So your goal is to just hold them inside during the winter in a sustaining mode? Stupid question and forgive me if the answer is here, but why not just keep them in a cage or pond then? It would be less trouble and they'd be less likely to delvelop fungus in the pond.
I hold my bluegills and perch over the winter too, but feed them well. Water temps in the upper 70's. The up side is come spring my YOY bluegills are 6 to 8 inches with some even larger and my YP are 8 to 9 inches with a few larger.
Once I can sex the fish the male bluegills go into the trophy pond as do the female yellow perch.
The water inside my cages during the winter gets down into the low to mid 30s. Yellow Perch, yes...Bluegill, yes....redears, a little bit iffy. I mostly just don't want to lose any ground on them.
Can you make them deeper for warmer temps?
Maybe, but it scares me to not be able to monitor the fish. I have visions of the spring coming and finding everyone of them dead.
Makes sense. We all know how sensitive redears can be to winter conditions. OTOH perhaps if there weren't too many morts you could come up with a line of redears that is coldwater resistent?
Just my opinion of course, but I think you're shorting yourself by not adding a couple of barrels for mechanical and bilogical filtration, and raising temps and feeding them. Less water to change for the few lbs. of fish you have and they will be healther. For only 50 lbs. of fish in a 500 gallon tank you could get away with one 10 percent water change per week.
Really easy and simple to add on even if you don't add a center drain. I could show you on this website with clear pictures step by step. The bio media you need is just up the road in Missouri and not only the cheapest on the market but has the most surface area here:
http://alliedaqua.com/moving-bed-bio-media-by-the-cubic-foot.htmlYou could ge the media bacteria going seperately in the drum by feeding it nonsudzing ammonia until it's cycled and then hook it up to the tank.
All you need for a mechanical filter is a blue plastic 55 gallon drum, about four or five foot of 2 inch PVC, two 2 inch elbows and a 2 inch connnector, a 1 1/2 inch bulkhead fitting for a drain in the bottom of the drum, barb fitting and plastic hose, and 2 cinder blocks. And orchard netting cut in pieces for the filter material and a small mag drive pump that sits on top of the filter material to pull water up through the material to the adjacent biofilter drum.
The biofilter consists of another blue plastic drum, a 9 inch membrane diffuser or two 9 inch air stones, and an airline to an air source. And of course a water line that feeds the biofilter water from the small mag drive pump on top of the mechanical filter. The water line can feed in at the top or bottom of the biofilter tank. I'm gravitating to feeding it into one of the bung holes of the lid of the drum. If you cut the top of the drum off where it slightly narrows you can flip it over and use it as a lid.
Gotta go. Have to draw something up to get a building permit.
What is the minimum temperature that a biofilter needs to maintain its healthy bacteria?
Just above freezing, but try keep the low above 40F.
I'm going to try keep things in the upper 60's, so I'm setting my low (for media volume) in the upper 50's.
I only have specific engineering and performance data on one particular brand of media, so I can't comment on others that most would be familiar with. With that said, at 59F feeding 1lb of 40% feed/day it requires 1.3 cubic feet of media. If it drops down to 40F, the requirements bump up to 1.8 cubic feet. Best to toss a 25% buffer on top of that.
What is the minimum temperature that a biofilter needs to maintain its healthy bacteria?
Don't know from experience as I've never had any reason to use it in coldwater yet. However what JKB says sounds right to me from literature I've read.
That said even if your bacteria is healthy in cold water, albeit working at a reduced rate, I would stil think you may have fungal issues with your readears if you keep the water cold.
As you know centrarchids in general have fungal issues if held in cold water facilities too long with lower corressponding feeding and a reduced immune response.
As you know centrarchids in general have fungal issues if held in cold water facilities too long with lower corressponding feeding and a reduced immune response.
Which rounds us back to the original question...what can be added to the water to reduce microbial activity?
Oh, for Gods sake!!! All this discussion and Bruce is at square 1? May I simplify this, add lots of Cyanide.
As you know centrarchids in general have fungal issues if held in cold water facilities too long with lower corressponding feeding and a reduced immune response.
Which rounds us back to the original question...what can be added to the water to reduce microbial activity?
The salt will reduce stress.
Oh, for Gods sake!!! All this discussion and Bruce is at square 1? May I simplify this, add lots of Cyanide.
LOL Bob! A little bleach will do the same thing!
If you are not going to depend on filtration and bacterial action consider sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate which is an addition compound of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) an oxidizer. At lower concentrations is not toxic to fish and works well on inactivating bacteria and most algae. The nominal amount of sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate is 85% in PAK®27 which corresponds to 27.6% H2O2. If you are interested, I can check on the feasible rate of application.
I will try to contact the inventor of the product tomorrow to see if he has any experience with it as a bactericide and fungicide.
Bruce PM or email me for details of using peroxygen for prophylaxis or reducing bacterial and fungal issues for fish. A large operation for farming redfish in Texas has used it.
Don't discount the in-situ biofiltration that will be going on within your tank. It all adds up and circular tanks have a decent advantage of utilizing the surface area of the tank as extended capacity, providing you have circular motion within and it is enough to shear the dead stuff off.
Yep up to 30 percent of biofiltration according to one source takes place on surfaces other than the biofilter.
Of course much less than optimum at lower temps.
Are we saying that I shouldn't be mop-cleaning the sidewalls of the tank?? That would certainly save me some effort.
Are we saying that I shouldn't be mop-cleaning the sidewalls of the tank?? That would certainly save me some effort.
If the sides have a film but no crud as in uneaten feed or feces, I would leave them alone.
OTOH at your cold temps I'm not sure it's not academic to rely on biofilm.
It looks like a live healthy bacteria culture. Maybe I could just clean up the feces and uneaten food off the bottom.
I will readily admit to being completely ignorant about such things, but I would never have imagined that up to 30% of filtration could occur simply due to contact between the water and the sides of the tank. Wow.
I will readily admit to being completely ignorant about such things, but I would never have imagined that up to 30% of filtration could occur simply due to contact between the water and the sides of the tank. Wow.
I feel like that's really accurate. I do know that the biofilm on the side of the tank looks and smells just like the bacterial cultures in the filters. And it's usually thick and dense.
Up to 30% is a good number. I was just reminded of that when I ordered my bio-carriers yesterday and figured I would toss that out there. Price went up shockingly high, but it's still cheaper in the long run.
It looks like a live healthy bacteria culture. Maybe I could just clean up the feces and uneaten food off the bottom.
In my circular fingerling tanks, where I preclude centripedal flow because they can't take a lot of current, I use a fine mesh aquarium dipnet attached to a section of 1 inch PVC to reach out slide along the bottom to pick up feces and uneaten food. I dump into a five gallon bucket. Works quite well. My center mounted membrane diffuser puts most of it into a pile next to the center.
I'm working on a DIY plug in siphon powered by a small pump, as I'm not impressed by the siphon's aquarium owners use. And I don't need to buy an expensive pool or koi pond vacuum.
I will readily admit to being completely ignorant about such things, but I would never have imagined that up to 30% of filtration could occur simply due to contact between the water and the sides of the tank. Wow.
Also any plumbing that makes contact with the water will have bacteria growing on it.
Cecil, I use a bell siphon like in the link below, designed for draining waterbeds. I use a 100' garden hose, then spliced in a 3' long "aquarium" style clear siphon tube that is readily available, and adaptable. It wastes some water when creating the full power of the venture action. I normally only started the siphon with the venture, and then let gravity take over. Under full power, I could drain a 150G aquarium completely in about 10 minutes.
Bell Siphon
Thanks Rex but I'm working on a simple plug in pump with a short intake and discharge to a five gallon bucket that doesn't require a siphon or long hoses. I want to be in and out of the tank with no prep time and little disturbance to the fish. Just flip a switch, point the intake wand at solids and be done.
Same here...get me in and outta there, ASAP.
What do you do for aeration Bruce?
I'm getting away from membrane diffusers as they seem to flow unevenly over time and burp large bubbles. It's something that's easily seen in a tank setup but probably missed in ponds.
Common sense says it's due to clogging, but even after surface cleaning I still have issues. Of course the damn things are close to impossible to disassemble for cleaning the other side of the membrane without some kind of custom built tool. (I think someone told me Ted Lea had built one?) It would be nice to take them completely apart to thoroughly clean both sides of the rubber membrane with muriatic acid. They're too wide to sit in the bottom of a bucket without using a lot of muriatic acid to get the acid to cover them.
Funny thing is some of the membranes run flawlessy indefinitely while others have issues in short order.
I'm now gravitating to a dual pvc manifold with a nine inch stone on each side. No need to mount it to the center drain as it's self weighting. And it can be easily lifted from the tank for cleaning or flushing solids that collect around the center drain.
And it's a cheaper set up vs. the membrane diffusers and considering I'm now setting up my fourth high school with an recirculating system...
What do you do for aeration Bruce?
I'm getting away from membrane diffusers as they seem to flow unevenly over time and burp large bubbles. It's something that's easily seen in a tank setup but probably missed in ponds.
Common sense says it's due to clogging, but even after surface cleaning I still have issues. Of course the damn things are close to impossible to disassemble for cleaning the other side of the membrane without some kind of custom built tool. (I think someone told me Ted Lea had built one?) It would be nice to take them completely apart to thoroughly clean both sides of the rubber membrane with muriatic acid. They're too wide to sit in the bottom of a bucket without using a lot of muriatic acid to get the acid to cover them.
Funny thing is some of the membranes run flawlessy indefinitely while others have issues in short order.
I'm now gravitating to a dual pvc manifold with a nine inch stone on each side. No need to mount it to the center drain as it's self weighting. And it can be easily lifted from the tank for cleaning or flushing solids that collect around the center drain.
And it's a cheaper set up vs. the membrane diffusers and considering I'm now setting up my fourth high school with an recirculating system...
Believe it or not I am migrating towards pure oxygen systems. I have found some regulators that will go down to 1/64 of a liter per minute. You can run a small tank for weeks on that. Since it is only $11 to fill a tank I'm not sure that this is a more expensive than the power to run an aeration system. Plus, I'm not at the mercy of potential power outages. Using two different tanks gives me redundancy and healthy fish.
Very interesting.
I'm presently looking at putting in a two way oxygen solenoid in line with an oxygen tank that will always be in a closed position when the power is on, but opens to release oxygen if their is a power outage. This is for my fourth high school. Not crazy about the prices I'm seeing in the Pentair/ AES catalog for one, and can't help thinking the mark up is outrageously high like much of the rest of what they sell. I'm researching sources right now: Asco, Grainger, etc.
Myself and one of the high school's is using a Tripplite APS750 inverter with two deep cycle batteries wired in parallel to get up to 10 hours of emergency back up power. We're talking close to $300.00 for the inverter and at least another couple hundred for the deep cycle batteriies. Was hoping the solenoid option would be cheaper. But it may be a wash as far as cost once the oxygen tank, regulator, and solenoid cost is added up if solenoid valves are as expensive as they are in the Pentar/AES catalog. OTOH the ag classes do welding which would means they have access to tanks, oxygen, and regulators.
Peroxygen - aka hydrogen peroxide.
I wonder if one of these home
oxygen generator/concentrators would be sufficient, as well as economically viable............. Perhaps one could be used in conjunction with a back-up tank, or a back-up electrical generator.
I suppose it would matter how much oxygen they produce and how many psi although considering how shallow tanks are it wouldn't take many psi. You could be on to something.
Bruce, do you recall what size tank is being filled for $11?
How do they designate size? I'm kind of ignorant on that. It's a commonly used medical cylinder.
The system I'm familiar with uses an alpha code based on tank height and diameter. BUT, those are industrial cylinders, not medical. It may be a completely different system.
Maybe measure height and diameter of the cylinder?
Getting some good leads on closed two way 110 volt solenoids for gases and found one on Ebay for only $35.00 brand new! Not sure if that is what I need but have contacted the distributor/seller.
Also have an email out to a local distrubutor of solenoids.
If anyone is interested I can pass on the info once I get a system set up? This may be a heck of a lot cheaper than an inverter and batteries for power back up. Might even be feasible for folks that have aquariums that don't want to lose their fish during an extended power outage.
This may be a heck of a lot cheaper than an inverter and batteries for power back up. Might even be feasible for folks that have aquariums that don't want to lose their fish during an extended power outage.
Interesting ideas from you and Bruce concerning the use of O2 cylinders for aeration and backup aeration.
If I may, I would suggest that y'all periodically crank the adjustment screw in and out on the regulator, and turn the cylinder valve off and on a few times. From my experience with oxygen regulators, I've learned that the internal parts have a tendency to stick together after sitting motionless for an extended period of time. Especially the high pressure seat. Doesn't cost much to fix, but it can be very inconvenient. It'd probably be a good idea to have a rebuild kit on hand.
BTW, according to the specs, the oxygen generators I linked too in my previous post produce 96% oxygen, at rates of 5 to 10 liters per minute. Not sure about PSI.
Gully Washer,
Are they rated for continuous use? That is, can they generate oxygen on a continuous basis or do they need to stop periodically? No clue so that is why I'm asking.
And just to be clear the back up system with the solenoid is not an original idea of mine. I found it in a couple of texts but of course the information was not detailed.
5 to 10 lpm is lower than what I run in my tanks (I run about 20 to 30 lpm from my center diffuser, but it could be enough to prevent a fish kill if the tank is deep enough to allow enough contact time.
I got the solenoid thing bassackwards! I misread the article. According to an engineer on another forum that is a distributor for Asco solenoids in Oklahoma, I want a solenoid that is N.O. (Normally open) but when it's plugged in it closes. Then when the power goes out it releases oxygen by opening.
Indeed the following paragraph says just that:
Good Morning Cecil,
Just to be clear, solenoid valves are specified ... "what condition will the valve be with NO power to the coil".
So a normally open valve will be OPEN when the coil is NOT energized, closed with the coil energized.
If I understand your plan correctly, you want the valve to open with a loss of power to allow flow of oxygen into the fish tank....?
So you need a N.O. valve.........mh
Emergency Oxygen
For a quick response to a power outage, one option is to have several high-pressure cylinders of oxygen that are connected to an inexpensive normally open oxygen-rated solenoid valve that is simply plugged into a wall outlet. When there is power, the sole- noid is energized and closed. When the power goes out, the sole- noid opens and oxygen flows. A simple oxygen manifold then directs oxygen to an oxygen diffuser in each aquaculture tank. This type of emergency oxygen system can be set up for about U.S. $250.http://pdf.gaalliance.org/pdf/GAA-Ebeling-March10.pdf
That engineer is correct. You want a solenoid that is open at rest, (normal) and closes under power. You also want to be sure the solenoid is rated for continuous use.
Gully Washer,
Are they rated for continuous use? That is, can they generate oxygen on a continuous basis or do they need to stop periodically? No clue so that is why I'm asking.
I don't know how long they can run continuously, but I'm assuming it's a pretty good while considering that they're used to continuously supply O2 to respiratory patients.
Apparently the machine is comprised of a relatively small number of parts: A small compressor and a self cleaning chemical filter called a molecular sieve which is made up of silicate granules called Zeolite which sieves the nitrogen from the air, concentrating the oxygen.
In a couple of weeks I'm going to visit a family member who lives in a nursing home where they have several of these in use. If I can locate a respiratory therapist who speaks fluent English I'll ask about the machines.
That engineer is correct. You want a solenoid that is open at rest, (normal) and closes under power. You also want to be sure the solenoid is rated for continuous use.
I got this response from a engineer that sells one on Ebay. Thoughts?
Hello. It sounds like you would need a normally open valve that you would normally keep powered (closed) and it would open upon power failure. However, a normally open solenoid valve would have coil life issues being powered basically indefinitely. The only type of valve that could handle this is a motorized ball valve. They don't have coils that get hot. Instead, they use limit switches to stop current flow to the motor when open and closed positions are reached. You would be looking at about $60 for a 1/2" normally open motorized ball valve with a brass body. They use an internal capacitor to drive the valve back to the open position after external power is removed.
Cecil, take a look here:
http://www.stcvalve.com/Normall-Open-Solenoid-Valve-Specifications_2SO040.htmI would contact the valve manufacturer and run your plans by them. A continuous valve is intended to be powered, well, continuously, but I agree that it will get hot during normal operation. If a solution could be found that did not involve a continuous flow of current, I would definitely check it out. I'm not familiar with the electrically actuated ball valves, but I would certainly explore that possibility in greater detail if I were you.
Ask a manufacturer about continuous duty in the manner you envision. They should be able to provide you with the duty cycle for the solenoid.
ASCO has a newer series of valves out with Class "H" insulation in the coil winding's. Can handle more heat and won't burn out as quick.
I would never do a control scheme energizing a solenoid on a continuous basis. Prone to failure.
Also, all valves leak that are conveying gas unless you spend some really big bucks, so if you had your emergency O2 system in place, could this not be prone to draining the tank before you really need it? I mean going cheap and not understanding valves when you try to hold them closed with a solenoid.
ASCO has a newer series of valves out with Class "H" insulation in the coil winding's. Can handle more heat and won't burn out as quick.
I would never do a control scheme energizing a solenoid on a continuous basis. Prone to failure.
Also, all valves leak that are conveying gas unless you spend some really big bucks, so if you had your emergency O2 system in place, could this not be prone to draining the tank before you really need it? I mean going cheap and not understanding valves when you try to hold them closed with a solenoid.
Thanks for the info. Didn't know the gas would slowly leak.
Might not be that big of a deal if it's not too drastic of leakage, as the schools have oxygen tanks on hand (welding) and can monitor O2 via the manifold/pressure gauge, and replace if needed. As you know O2 itself is not that expensive.
The other alternative are the inverters and batteries. The batteries don't last either.
Here's some more info from an ASCO distributor on an aquaponcs forum I frequent. Keep in mind I'm just throwing out information I am getting. Not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, and I'm appreciative of any feedback I get both good and bad.
Cecil,
A good quality solenoid valve such as ASCO or Parker will be rated for 100% duty cycle, so it is safe and typically operated with the valve energized for years. The power consumption on a 3/8" N.O. ASCO valve is .21 watts holding (yes, 0.21 watts) so it won't generate hardly any heat. Even the inrush on the coil when you first energize the coil is only 50 VA (0.42 watts on a 120/60 coil) I can't speak to some of the import knock-offs.....
I am familiar with spring return ball valves (we rep those too), but have not used (or even heard of a capacitor to use in this arrangement).....but my focus is in the commercial/industrial boiler world, I just get involved with valves as it relates to our core business. The questions that come to mind;
- if the capacitor should fail, what does the valve do? (seems like it might "freeze" in what ever position it was)[/*]
- if a N.O. valve coil should burnout, the valve will go open (it has no choice). at this point you will give your fish a nice O2 boost, but no harm-no foul...[/*]
I really like this idea of having a fail-safe backup to keep the fish okay with a loss of power, keep us posted........
That sounds encouraging Cecil, especially regarding heat buildup.
The ASCO valves I was looking at the other day were all in the 10-20 watt range so I'll have to look at it again. Also have to dig out the ones I have here from previous projects and see what they are.
On a kind side note, I think there is some confusion about watts and amps. 50VA = 0.42 amps at 120V.
AC solenoids can get confusing at times because not all list the values the same.
VA = VoltAmps = Volts x Amps, which also = watts. Holding VA is the same as continuous watt draw while the solenoid is energized.
Inrush VA is the surge to get the valve to move, pretty much the same thing as when you start an electric motor, but not as drastic.
VA and KVA (Thousand VA) are more or less transformer rating terms, so a transformer will have a VA or KVA rating on what it can actually handle. It's easier to add up the VA of devices (without confusion) to properly size a control transformer.
I've never paid attention to the watt rating of AC solenoids because we always use the VA for sizing the transformer, surge protection, controlling devices, fuses or circuit breakers... With that said, I was a bit curious as to why the watt rating on AC solenoids was lower than the VA. For the most part, it appears to be a measure of output power to do work, kinda like a motor, but some rate it as heat dissipation, kinda like holding a 20 watt light bulb in your hand.
I called up an engineer today that has been selling solenoid valves for over 30 years. Went over the VA stuff, which we all know, then asked him what the watt rating on your AC valves you sell mean? He said no one has ever asked that question and he didn't know, but will make calls and find out.
With DC, it's straight up. Watts are watts! Although, there are some new electronically enhanced DC valves that take on the characteristics of AC valves with really high inrush, but much lower holding.
Yeah, US is adopting more European standards for control. I should probably stop here to avoid scaring myself
I'm loving this entire discussion.
What about incorporating an AC voltage monitoring device that simply plugs into a wall outlet? I think they have those available that activate an alarm when there's a power failure, so instead of that, wire in a relay to activate a continuous duty 12 volt solenoid valve to allow O2 flow when the lights go out. Use a deep cycle battery or two as a power source?
Charge the batts periodically and they should operate the solenoid for a good while, depending on the current draw?
Most meds will mess with your biological filtration. Praziquantel is a good idea to prevent some kind of parasites including flukes. It doesn't bother fish too.
Most meds will mess with your biological filtration. Praziquantel is a good idea to prevent some kind of parasites including flukes. It doesn't bother fish too.
Remember though, I don't have a biological filtration system! Please feel to elaborate on any other ideas you may have.
What about incorporating an AC voltage monitoring device that simply plugs into a wall outlet? I think they have those available that activate an alarm when there's a power failure, so instead of that, wire in a relay to activate a continuous duty 12 volt solenoid valve to allow O2 flow when the lights go out. Use a deep cycle battery or two as a power source?
Charge the batts periodically and they should operate the solenoid for a good while, depending on the current draw?
You could just use a small AC powered SPDT relay plugged into an outlet that would use minuscule amounts of energy vs the AC solenoid and run your emergency battery power thru that. Small DC coils can get down pretty low on the amps (1/4 or so on 12VDC), so that wont eat a battery up to quick.
Getting use to my new laptop right now, and this thing is pretty sweet for being a consumer grade machine. I like it!!
Not being up to speed on all this stuff, I will ask a naļve question. I don't know how much air you need Cecil, but I do know there are a lot of relatively inexpensive 12V aerators available for live wells etc. Does just putting in some kind of smart switch box that knows when the main power dropped out and kicking in a canned 12 V system make any sense from a cost standpoint? My home backup generator has a small trickle charger that keeps its battery always charged.
What about incorporating an AC voltage monitoring device that simply plugs into a wall outlet? I think they have those available that activate an alarm when there's a power failure, so instead of that, wire in a relay to activate a continuous duty 12 volt solenoid valve to allow O2 flow when the lights go out. Use a deep cycle battery or two as a power source?
Charge the batts periodically and they should operate the solenoid for a good while, depending on the current draw?
You could just use a small AC powered SPDT relay plugged into an outlet that would use minuscule amounts of energy vs the AC solenoid and run your emergency battery power thru that. Small DC coils can get down pretty low on the amps (1/4 or so on 12VDC), so that wont eat a battery up to quick.
Exactly. I'm all for keeping things simple, and I like the idea of the NO AC solenoid valve plumbed into the O2 tank, but I'm still struggling with the notion of that solenoid being under power at all times except when the main goes down. Cecil's engineer undoubtedly knows far more about it than I do, and if he says it's good to go then that eases my concern somewhat. But I still wish we could set this up to avoid the always-on AC current scenario.
Exactly. I'm all for keeping things simple, and I like the idea of the NO AC solenoid valve plumbed into the O2 tank, but I'm still struggling with the notion of that solenoid being under power at all times except when the main goes down. Cecil's engineer undoubtedly knows far more about it than I do, and if he says it's good to go then that eases my concern somewhat. But I still wish we could set this up to avoid the always-on AC current scenario.
An A-B 700-HL Interposing relay only draws 0.3 watts at 120 VAC and can be held on (energized) indefinitely. No problem handling a 12V or 24V DC solenoid valve running from a backup battery. The relay itself is about twice the size of my thumb nail and about 3/16" thick. I use quite a few of these that are continuously energized in factories and infrastructure, and never heard of a problem.
Not sure what the electrical inspectors follow in Indiana, but NEC states you need to use a class 2 power supply, and or, a SELV rated power supply for control circuits. I forgot that this may be going into a school. I doubt you can just wire this directly to a plug and stick it into an outlet without following NEC in either scenario.
NEC 2017 is next, and it has some additional YIKES for everyone. 2014 should have closed the DIY electrical hole up quite a bit, but from what I have heard about 2017...
An A-B 700-HL Interposing relay only draws 0.3 watts at 120 VAC and can be held on (energized) indefinitely. No problem handling a 12V or 24V DC solenoid valve running from a backup battery. The relay itself is about twice the size of my thumb nail and about 3/16" thick. I use quite a few of these that are continuously energized in factories and infrastructure, and never heard of a problem.
Now that sounds like what I'm envisioning. I like that scenario.
I ask forgiveness for this post but I'm an aerospace engineer and these are questions we would ask...So what happens if something else in the system fails on a Friday night or over a holiday, other than a power outage, with nobody around to notice? Does the backup system being proposed work? Would pressure be a better trigger for the backup to kick in? Second question is how long will the O2 tank supply the system? If you performed a FEMA (Failure Effect Mode Analysis) it is a finite solution which we try not to use when designing redundancy into a system. We consider this type of solution just making the fuse longer, not preventing the catastrophic failure (dead fish). That might be ok if you are flying a JSF 135; you know the duration of the mission to return safely to base, and the backup will support you for twice that time. But if you don't know how long the mission is....
Ok guys, I am ready for you to wack me!
Bill,
This latest fourth school is quite new and has power back up but it doesn't kick in for about five hours. So power back up is only needed for that time frame. My guess is that's because it won't be an issue for that amount of time as the heating or cooling systems, computers, and cafeteria freezers can be without power that long (the computers have their own short term battery back up ) without it being cathostrophic, and power outages in our area are rarely longer than that. But that's only a WAG from me and I could be completely wrong.
I'm pretty sure a good size cylinder could easily supply oxygen to both the tank and biofilter for that period of time. I say that because I had no issues transporting fish from Virginia and Northern Wisconsin with one of those cylinders. One of the trips was 14 hours!
OTOH I'm gravitating to an inverter and large sealed deep cycle battery for this particular school as my calculations show the battery and inverter will provide AC for the five hours needed to run the air pump AND the water pump, of which the NO solenoid and 02 will not.
One of the issues I have with the schools that I set up systems for is most, if not all of it is on my dime. My hope is to recoup that by getting the fish back grown out larger at the end of the school year. Basically they are four tanks/ systems I don't need floor space for.
The politicians in our state talk the talk about supporting public schools but at the same time they're cutting funds. Some of my fish don't get fed on the weekends because there are no custodians on the weekend to do so. They also can't keep them as they pay them so little.
There's also a higher turnover of teachers more than ever before. The state is paying someone to do a study to find out why when the consensus among teachers is it would have made more sense and been cheaper to just ask them.
Btw here's a cool website that explains a lot about inverters and even has a plug and chug calculator farther down the page if you know the watts you're using and battery specs. Tells you roughly how long the battery(s) will last.
http://www.donrowe.com/power-inverter-faq-a/258.htm
Cecil, any chance of swapping the air and water pumps for DC units and skipping the inverter altogether? Just trying to simplify things.
How would you do that?
Is this typical of prices for them?
http://pentairaes.com/12v-diaphragm-compressor.html
I haven't checked on prices, so don't know if it's practical. But it would eliminate the need for the inverter, so that would help with the costs.
And, by using 12 volt components you would have the stuff available for mobile use....hauling fish, etc.
Tripplite 750 APS Inverter $285.65. Runs both air and water pump. Also trickle charges battery and recharges battery.
Deep cycle 125 AH battery. $259.97
60 lpm linear air pump AC ~$145.00
Mag Drive 7 water pump ~$75.00. (650 gph 1 foot head)
12 volt compressor. $327.75. Runs only air pump.
Deep cycle 125 AH battery $259.97
12 volt water pump 750 gph 1 foot head) $???
AES/Pentair web link shows two models of 12 volt DC compressors but only the price of one. Catalog shows price of lower CFM unit at $327.75.
The higher CFM unit would be optimum but what is the price?
Then it may be financially unsuitable to go with a DC system. There's nothing wrong with the way you have it set up, there's just a part of my brain that doesn't like inverters. In some cases they are a good solution, but I hate having extra math in the equation.
Spark - Tripp Lite is easily one of the top brands of the type of rig Cecil uses for backup, and don't see any reason to change. It is Plug-n-Play, so there is no engineering or electricians involved to set it up.
I thought about doing something similar a few years ago, but battery backup is only going to keep a DC powered PLC alive to determine what the heck is really going on, then it takes action...
Cecil...I used this
Air Compressor for hauling smaller loads of Tilapia before getting that old red truck. It's only 90 watts, and an inexpensive 150 watt inverter powered it fine. It ran constantly for 6 days straight without a single thermal shutdown.
I don't know the CFM, but it seemed to be about 1.5-2 when using 10, 12" X 1" aquarium style air stones.
Easily modified also, if need be for plumbing.
Cecil...I used this
Air Compressor for hauling smaller loads of Tilapia before getting that old red truck. It's only 90 watts, and an inexpensive 150 watt inverter powered it fine. It ran constantly for 6 days straight without a single thermal shutdown.
I don't know the CFM, but it seemed to be about 1.5-2 when using 10, 12" X 1" aquarium style air stones.
Easily modified also, if need be for plumbing.
Interesting.
Spark - Tripp Lite is easily one of the top brands of the type of rig Cecil uses for backup, and don't see any reason to change. It is Plug-n-Play, so there is no engineering or electricians involved to set it up.
I thought about doing something similar a few years ago, but battery backup is only going to keep a DC powered PLC alive to determine what the heck is really going on, then it takes action...
I'm familiar with Tripp Lite and they do build good stuff. I just don't like the idea of energy wasted in the form of heat, during the inversion process. It just strikes me as so inefficient. But, such systems are providing power in a lot of places, so I know the technology is proven. It's just a glitch in my thought process.
Then it may be financially unsuitable to go with a DC system. There's nothing wrong with the way you have it set up, there's just a part of my brain that doesn't like inverters. In some cases they are a good solution, but I hate having extra math in the equation.
Not necessarily financially unsuitable. Depends on how the system is set up.
I just don't know how one would run it DC 24/7 without it being complicated.
I'm familiar with Tripp Lite and they do build good stuff. I just don't like the idea of energy wasted in the form of heat, during the inversion process. It just strikes me as so inefficient. But, such systems are providing power in a lot of places, so I know the technology is proven. It's just a glitch in my thought process.
Understood Spark - Inverter efficiencies are the cost of doing business if that's what is going to work in the situation, so you plan for it.
Pretty much everything I have is 230VAC and 24VDC. When I looked into this route for a backup system, I would need it to at least run for 12 hours. Adding it all up with batteries and such, it put it over the 4K range, and I thought that was just way to silly to do this.
$700.00 for an electric start generator. 24VDC watchdog PLC that runs from small batteries and only eats 7.5 watts (when it's really thinking), a few contactors in the works, then the watchdog fires up the generator, main PLC comes online, VFD's all boot and start spinning motors. Back to normal in about a minute.
I just got a cute little 1/3hp electric motor to replace an energy hog motor on one of my mag drive pumps. I was intrigued with the specs on this. Not only is it Vector Duty, but exceeds the DOE small motor energy rule that took effect March of this year. I won't go into that rule because it could be depressing to the extent that you are still stuck with less efficient motors on all the popular canned motors used in aeration equipment. It was supposed to include all motors, but it got botched.
Someday tho, because they can make motors that are almost 100% efficient, in both single and three phase.
BTW, the official word on watt ratings for AC solenoids is totally thermal, as in heat dissipation. Those others that muck up the works are not playing by the rules.
FWIW I got this response recently on the Aquaponics Nation website regarding the NO solenoid and oxygen as backup in case of a power outage.
Hi Cecil,
I use this configuration in my designs all the time; NO selenoid valve for emergency oxygen. Can't advice on US model as I am down under. Hot coils and/or leakage are non issues, and my installations include demanding high line pressure and high volume units. I always advice that a facility has a spare coil in stock, as most good selenoid valves have a replaceble coil without taking the unit offline.
If you intend to have higher stocking densities I would advice to have a backup source AND emergency oxygen.
For small systems an inverter with a battery pack can run a circulation pump and airpump easy for a day. Last one I installed like this could run for 24 hours on 4 X 260 Ah batteries (with UPS/inverter); and then we were running; circulation pump, blower, oxygen generator, switchboard/contol gear.One think more, motorized ball valves on oxy lines makes no sense. These are good for large bore low pressure applications.
http://aquaponicsnation.com/forums/topic/9510-oxygen-solenoid-source/