Guys,

My perception is I never see any posts about stocking NP. I see folks recommending TM to control LMB, etc. over population issues. Why no NP?

Bill D.

There have been occasional threads over the years advocating the use of NP to control other predators or even larger sunfish, as in mixing NP with SMB in bluegill ponds. IIRC, one of the most ardent supporters was here in TN; he was such an enthusiastic supporter...

....but you are right, there hasn't been much on this topic in some time. Dwight would seem to have a very nice balance, and might give an update on his experience with NP, LMB, BG, BC, and YP [and I think a few SMB, too] Would be interested in hearing from anyone else who has such a mix going as well.

Bill , according to Scott(Esshup), stocking rate for NP or Musky is "1 fish per acre". I think that explains why no one stocks them .

I remember reading a real story about a pond. The owner of that pond asked help of a pond manager. His problem was that he wasn't catching any fish in his pan fish pond. Then they poisined the fish to restock and it turned out there were 4 muskies in the pond which pond owner didn't know of. I don't remember what size the pond was but it was at least 2-3 acres.

In a lot of our small lakes the pike tend to over populate and stunt.

They also seem to eat bullhead and any thing else they can get in their mouths. I have heard stories of people findin young ducks and full grown rattle snakes in their bellies. Not to mention other large fish.

I have heard some talk on the forum that it is hard for NP to reproduce in the pond environment but that is not the case in north and south dakota. Our ponds get low and grass grows on the bottom then the lake is flooded and everything is under water the next. Making perfect np spawning habitat.

Real serious np fishermen will watch the wet years on the missouri river and mark them in their planner (meaning the pike had a good spawn) and as that year class matures they will go fish it especially for the spring bite. Lake Sharpe has a good pike population lake Ohae np pop is maturing. I have no report on ND stretch of the missouri river but devils lake has a great np pop and upcoming generations. Fort Peck has a mature population too.

A local lake, orman dam, Is an irrigation lake with a full pool of 8000 surface acres but can make its way down to 3000 on dry years. The lake is generally "dry" in the spring and has been for many years. The last couple years have been very wet and np are starting to make an appearance in the lake again.

Another interesting fact is wyo state only had two lakes with np until recently.

The small pond I work with that has np also has lmb and the lmb would take over if a person would let them. I see other people's management and the np have no predators in a lake and they all grow into snakes.

Bill d. I think there fear is the np will over populate which can happen. Also they are not a kid friendly fish. A kids fingers in a mouth with 500 teeth is not as good of a memory builder as the kid with bg or trout.also the y bone makes them hard to skin and many people have served them with too many bones. We are going to can a batch this year.

I have never caught a muskie, are they as slimy as a pike?

Love the typo

Growing up you always fished with a steel leader in the St. Lawrence river due to the NP and Muskies. I got dragged around a swamp in a canoe by a large NP as I neglected to bring an anchor when fishing. The fish won when it went under a log.

NP are probably the fiercest and most fun fish I have ever had the pleasure of catching. A 36" pike can take 30 minutes to tire out and land if you want your string intact. I remember many times puling in a perch or sunny only to have half of it actually show up, wishing that the pike would have grabbed a bit more including my hook.

The best story is when my family was in a small aluminum rowboat out in the main channel near Boldt Castle. The channel in that area is very deep, in some areas 130' or more. The large ships would pass within 20-30 feet of us out there, which is exciting when the bow waves tower over you and block the horizon for a bit. No need to wiggle the bait when you are going over those waves. We had all the faith in the world in my dad that we wouldn't tip over out there, but looking back at it now, I am not sure that was the safest place to bring a young family.

My sister was about 14 years old (I was 12), and started reeling her line in with a lot of struggle. It seemed like she snagged some junk on the bottom as it came up as a dead weight, no motion. My dad leaned over the edge of the boat with a net to help scoop up whatever it was, and then saw an absolute monster of a Muskie on the end of her line just drifting up. Of course he swore loudly so we all looked over (leaning the boat precariously) to see what appeared to be the largest fish I have ever seen, to the point it scared the hell out of us all. The fish took one look at us, flipped its tail and took off. It snapped her 10lb test like nothing, causing her pole to crack like a whip. All I know is it was much larger than my puny 36" largest NP catch.

That was pretty thrilling. I think we all reeled in at that point to something a little more to our scale.

I've thought about adding a couple NP to my large pond but haven't done so yet...I think the odds of them successfully spawning is remote but I have one childhood memory that keeps me from stocking them...

When I was a kid I used to go over to my Grandpa's place out in the country by Harrisburg, IL to hang out/go fishing/work around the property/etc. There was a small ( > 2/3 acre) pond not too far from his property that we would occasionally fish. The first few times I remember going we brought home HUGE amounts of BG...and nice ones too. Fast forward say 2 years, which was the next time we went there after a fairly long hiatus...not a BG to be caught, but we caught probably 30 undersized and stunted NP in the 10-14" range. It appeared to us that someone had added some NP and essentially killed off what was a great little BG pond.

We have a few large giant female NP in our pond (5 acres). We also have quite a few giant CGC. These are out "Management Fish". The NP help keep populations of everything else down and the CGC keep the bottom of the pond clear of decaying plant and animal material. Both are great fun to catch and release.

Our pond is 80-90% percent sand and gravel bottom so the CGC can't stir up the bottom slurping for organisms or plants. In a pond with less sand and gravel CGC could be a real problem.

There have been no small NP nor CGC seen in the pond for years. Neither of these fish are successful at reproducing. I believe the CGC do produce young. Carp minnows are yummy to most every other fish in the pond; hence young don't survive.

Fish management people will see everything that is wrong with having these fish in a pond, but it works for us.

Go fish some small inland lakes in Minnesota and you will never even consider placing Northern Pike in your pond/lake. Stunt city hammerhandles.

It seems like the key is to be able to manage their numbers. Single-sex or single fish.

If Esox are appropriate for the management plan, why not use Tiger Muskies instead of NP?

Agreed Tony - I recommend a sterile hybrid - they are also more tolerant of warmer and more turbid water than NP. Only problem stocking an apex predator with a large gape is eventually it will be targeting trophy panfish

Northern pike are a lot easier to locate (purchase) compared to muskies or tiger muskies. With these fish in the pond be prepared to lose the largest fish these predators can swallow. These larger pike/muskies often eat by waiting & ambushing more narrow bodied fusiform fish such as bass especially when bass are common to abundant in a pond. Does anyone know the mouth gape of a 36"-40" pike/musky? Are there any mounts out there? I will ask Cecil and return with info if he has any of these in his taxidermy shop.

Well I grew up in Northern Wis. and my experience with either of these fish are their mouth gape doesn't matter! LOL! They will kill stuff that they can't eat all the way too! They are like sharks they'll just take a chunk out of it and come back for more!

I once saw first hand a M/or a NP not sure which try to take down a full adult Mallard. It tried 4 times and finally I never saw the duck again. So if you have duck issues too they will help! ha,ha...

But none of these fish got anything on a Red Ear!! So stock at your own risk!

RC

Right or wrong, that enthusiastic supporter is turning out CNBG knocking on the 2lb door.....1.99 was the last I saw.

I have also seen what I would say was a about a 40 inch TM try and catch and eat a about a 2 pound bass he couldn't catch em tho. That bass was just a bit to quick. This went on for about 2 minutes in between 2 docks in about 4 foot of water. I was throwing my bait in there left and right but he wouldn't take it he was wanting that LM and nothing else!! He never got that one but it was a sight to see him try! That is one scary fish when he opens up that mouth to eat with all them teeth and that white flash when he strikes!!

RC

This thread documented my slight experience with NP. I would love to do it again and see if the same results would happen. I think BH's and NP would go together like peanut butter and jelly (not that the BH's would like it too much)

After rereading the post, I wish I had asked Dr. Willis so many, many, many more questions!!

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=304827&page=1

Thanks for sharing the thread MF! Very enlightening!

You never had any updates on the end of that thread, what did you find in the bottom of that pond? You're killing me here, I read the whole book and you took out the last chapter

I could never prove it but I think those pike ate themselves to death. They wiped out the pond of all food. After I drew it down and killed it off there were hardly any fish. Less than a 1 gallon bucket full of Rotenone killed fish. Before I stocked the pike it was VERY heavy with BG, BCP, YP, and BH.

Just look at the pond structure (or should I say lack of) and the water clarity was 4-5'. Those pike had all the advantages.

It was a fun journey and I learned a lot. I really didn't expect the outcome which is what's its all about....right?

If you get a chance, try tagging one by yourself. I'm sure the pro's here could do it but I could not!

Try and remind us to get you some mouth gape measurements.

Cecil will give me some pike mouth measurements soon. What we now need are some body depth and length measurements of some of your largemouth. As an example, a 'regular' 12" long LMB has a body depth or height of 2.9"(75mm). So you guys get out there and get fishing and measuring some of your bass.

Per a quick measurement last night, the NP I have mounted (43.5 inches long, 25 lbs live weight) has a 4 1/4 inch mouth width. As mounted, she's only got her mouth open about 2 inches, but could easily more than double that when needed.

These are data about mouth size of northern pike from Cecil Baird in his Taxidermy shop.
"32 inch northern: vertical gape 3 inches, horizontal gape 2 3/4's.

42 inch northern: vertical gape 4 1/4 inches, horizontal gape 4 inches.

These are of mounted fish and may be on the conservative side. I have two muskies in the freezer in the 45 inch range but didn't get to them today.

Of interest may be a 48 inch northern gill netted by the INDNR years ago while collecting broodstock walleye from Clear Lake, Fremont IN was brought back live to a holding tank and spit up a 20 inch rainbow trout."
I think a 20" long rainbow trout probably has a similar or very close to body depth of a 20" LMB,