As some of you might remember, I decided NOT to take the advice of letting fish starve through the winter months.

Instead, I fed my Coppernose bream through the winter. And not just a little bit either. I fed these fish until they weren't hungry anymore. Currently , water temperature in my pond is 51 degrees F.

There are good guys here that know exactly what they are talking about. They will go nearly overboard and bend over backwards to help people here and give friendly advice. This forum is a fine forum and the members here are very helpful.

Having said that, I got advice about how winter pellet feeding is useless. That it is a waste of time. That winter pellet feeding will not benefit growth, because a fishes metabolism slows down once the water temperature drops ( which is true but it doesn't stop completely) That the fish will eat the pellets but not process the pellets correctly, thus growth will be nothing short of non-existant. That it is unhealthy to feed pellets during the winter months. That a fishes health would suffer due to feeding pellets regularly through the winter. And I would have to go back and look but there was a host of warnings, a very long list of why not to pellet feed high protein during cold water months.

It is starting to warm here a bit now. Spring is right around the corner. But today I bring you results of feeding during the winter months. They are hitting the Crickhopper lure made by Rebel which is a fairly sizable lure for Bream.

This fine specimen is smaller compared to the two I caught yesterday but did not have my camera out there with me yesterday. Trust me when I tell you, some of my bream are quite a bit larger than this. They are drop dead gorgeous, if I do say so myself.

The fish were caught, gently handled, the hooks came out easily, then released. My goal is 2 pound plus coppernose.
Do not know if that will happen, but it does appear that I'm headed in the right direction.

I give you results.

Impressive, Jason. Congratulations!

Did you use floating or sinking feed? I've heard sinking recommended for cold water conditions as it gives the bluegill more time to eat the food, but this may or may not be valid. My pond is in extreme eastern Texas, near Hallsville, so if winter feeding helped you, it should work here too. I hope so!

Thank you sir.
I use only floating pellets. I wanted to see and monitor the action. With sinking pellets you don't know what's happening, how much is being eaten...or when to stop feeding.
I feed my fish until they stop eating. A fish will know when it's not hungry anymore.

Barring what may happen here when I give you this advice....I broke the rules. I do not know if it's wise to give you this advice.......but if it were me, I would do it. I would feed those fish.
The results speak for themselves, my friend.

Jason, I'm happy that your fish appear to be growing well. However, winter, to me at least, is more than a date on the calendar. Your water temps are 51 degrees right now, during the winter. If I were to take the time to chop through the ice on my ponds, I am fairly confident that my temps are in the mid thirties...during this same time period, in the winter. HUGE difference.

That's why most here are cautious about making blanket statements, such as saying it's ok to feed all through the winter. Too many variables such as water temps, that can make a difference.

What works for one pond in one location may not be advisable for another pond, in another location.


Also, in order to have any chance of determining the effects of winter pellet feeding, you need to select a group of bluegills, weigh them, place them into a cage, feed those fish throughout the winter, then weigh the very same fish again in the spring. Within every year class of bluegills there will exist individuals that exhibit both faster, and slower growth than the general population. How do you know that the bluegills you have caught recently weren't already in the higher percentile class before winter set in? In order to be conclusive, you have to judge the effects of winter feeding on the SAME group of fish, not select samples at random.

I'm happy for you, and I admire your enthusiasm for your bluegills.... I love seeing that in other pondowners, and I feel much the same way myself. But science is more demanding than that. Keep going, keep learning, and keep growing those fish. I'm hoping to see some giants!

I recall your old thread about winter feeding but do not remember the stocking date and the size of these fish when stocked. Could you provide that information?

Great looking fish and if they were stocked as fingerlings last fall they have done well.

I think some of the guys up north would have to drill through a foot or two of ice to winter feed, which might not work out as well as it did for you. You southern guys have a lot longer growing season.

Jason, really nice CNBG – one if my favorite fish!
No advice from me, but lots of CNBG experience to share!

About forum advice, first if all, I determine if advice is regional and experienced based – I don’t overthink this stuff.
My feeding schedule is seasonal based, feeding more in peak growing periods and less in the hottest and coldest weeks, essentially year round. I let the fish tell me want they want.

There are so many variables involved, there are no set rules for me – our CNBG may be on a feeding frenzy in one pond and inactive in the other.

I say go for that 2 pounder, feeding based on observation.
Good luck with your program.
George

Jason007, I also fed during the winter with the CNBG stocked in late November when the water temp was 51 and was advised to do so 1 second per day by Walt @ Overtons. I am along the La/Texas border in NE Texas. When the water temps got to 58 I fed 3 times per day in 2 second feedings. 8 am, 12pm and 5:20pm. I never saw them just tear the water up. But I did see them feed at every feeding. When this cold front came in last week and again today the water temp is 51 and I was just about to ask Bob Lusk @ the PB Conference when he said he feeds till water temps hit 46, so I continue to feed. And I have no idea what size my fish are. I am not even sure how many have made it through the winter. I hope u continue ahead to your goals.
Tracy

I kinda figured something like this would come up. I understand what you're trying to say and there may be some scientific merit to be had. So let me start from the beginning.

The fish in the first set of photos IS one of the smaller first year coppernose. Some of the ones I have caught are considerably larger. Over 9 inches Believe it or not.
I have the proof to back it up. So let us continue.

My coppernose were stocked on may 17, 2014. The majority of them were an inch to an inch and half long with lots of smaller ones than that and a few 2 inch fish.

My growing season for these fish was from may to late October when the water temps started to drop pretty good. Lets say 5 months. 1-2 inch fish can't really take pellets, so I didn't really start feeding until, I would say at least , July.

The growth rate I have personally witnessed from November until now, is nothing short of amazing. They said it couldn't happen. It did happen. I'm not trying to be a jerk and rub anyones nose in anything but I told y'all on the first topic where we had the big go round that I would post results, and that there would be no adverse effects and I nearly guaranteed that. I did everything but give a 100% guarantee.
I understand fully that different areas require different management. But here down south, Now I give you a 100% guarantee that feeding your fish high protein pellets through the winter months will absolutely NOT adversely affect your fish. On the other hand what it will do is grow your fish and that is also a 100% guarantee, and I stake my good name on it.
Absolutely, no ifs ands or buts about it.

I am so confident in this that I would advise the gentleman from Hallman Texas to absolutely feed his fish as much as they can take through the winter months, in east Texas.

The fine specimen posted below was caught at 5:05 pm central time Feb. 22, 2015 ( this afternoon) and was gently handled , measured and released quickly. This fish went from 2 inches maximum, to 9 and 1/8 inches, since May 17, 2014. The fish was measured while still hanging on the hook because I did not want to lay this beauty on the ground in the dirt and leaves and wanted it back in the water as soon as possible.

Unfortunately, I do not have a photo with the tape measure next to it, as this is hard to do by yourself with a fish hanging from a hook suspended in the air. The two I caught yesterday were larger than this.

The results speak for themselves. The photos confirm it.


Yeah I know. I have fairly large hands.

I have been confident, and subsequently incorrect, more times than I would like to admit. Confidence does not guarantee correctness.


"The fine specimen posted below was caught at 5:05 pm central time Feb. 22, 2015 ( this afternoon) and was gently handled , measured and released quickly. This fish went from 2 inches maximum, to 9 and 1/8 inches, since May 17, 2014"

Okay, but how much of that growth occurred during the winter period, say the previous 60 days? That's why the fish are weighed before and after winter....to see how much growth was obtained during the colder months. Maybe that fish was the very same size in November, or only gained a small amount over the winter?? Your winter is my fall...I see green foliage in your photos. I can't see the ground here due to snow cover. Big difference.

Another poster indicated hearing Bob Lusk say he fed until the water temps dropped below 46 degrees. What is his reason for discontinuing feed in colder water?

Nah, I have been posting photos of the fish and they have substantially widened and put on length over the last 90 days , November through January and 22 days into February........112 days.

I cannot argue with you about geographical location. I understand that is different.
However......I was advised NOT to feed high protein once water temperatures went below , some 55 degrees?
You can always go back and look a the old thread and see exactly what I am talking about. That has ALL proven to be false. ALL of it. How much more proof do you require? Because I am reasonably sure that I can make that happen. I 100% guarantee it. I can also guarantee you that I did not capture one fish in a cast net, or by rod and reel, that measured over 9 inches, 100 days ago.

There have been no adverse effects on the fish. None.
All they have done is get really wide and heavy.

Further evidence
This was one of the larger Bream in my pond , and this pic was taken October 5, 2014.


And here.....Feb 22, 2015....TODAY.
Can you not see the difference?

The results speak for themselves.
I guarantee correctness 100% in this case.
Without a doubt and unequivocally.

Jason you have some dandy fish, and I hope you continue to learn, and share what you learn. That's what I'm trying to do also. But as I cannot make you see where the error lies within your theory, I will simply wish you well, and bid you continued success.

From what I see and judging by the results presented.........it's not my theory that bit the dust, with authority.But we can go back and look at that other thread and see exactly whose "theories" fell apart like I kicked kicked a jigsaw puzzle from the 30 yard line with 5 seconds left in the game.

I suspect that cold water feeding gets a bad rap because it is easy to overfeed. Metabolism slows, fish don't eat as much, so if summer feeding program continues there will be lots of waste and possible problems. Besides, if fish don't eat as much, how can they pack on weight?

But maybe we should reconsider. At the Pond Boss conference we learned about a big research project on the skinny bass of Grand Lake. They were skinny, the researchers discovered, because they roamed the lake in search of food. LMB were traveling 1 or even 2 miles a day, consuming a ton of calories to do so.

They resembled marathon runners rather than couch potatoes, but when it comes to bass, we anglers want fat couch potatoes. Now the researchers have placed artificial structure in the lake in order to get the bass to get their food without burning it off going all over the lake.

With that in mind, what if the cold water metabolic slowdown seen in BG is a blessing as well as a challenge? Sure, they eat less, but then they burn less, too. Result: weight goes up, even with less feed.

Maybe there are temperatures where feeding ceases altogether. Maybe pellets would have to be downsized, too. However, ice fishing for BG up north can be very productive, so we might be surprised.

Love to see more research on this topic.

Jason, it damn sure wouldn't be me that told a guy from a warm weather area to not feed during what we call winter. Actually I freely admit that my advice is pretty useless in areas North of me. The fish in different climates have different metabolisms.

Right now, it is sleeting with air temps in the mid 20's. My fish won't feed or bite during this. When it warms into the 60's or 70's they will start again. And yet the guys up North are ice fishing and I don't envy them one damn bit.

One thing that you can take to the bank is that your fish, and mine, may or may not live long enough to make it to 2 pounds. As usual, it all depends.

I'm confused here? So you want to plead your case which is fine but you also want to make sure everyone knows you got some bad advice? I have a pond here in Arkansas have had it since 2009 I stocked CNBG in it in May 2010 they were 2 to 4 inches. I caught this bute below this last may. 4 years 11 inches long. It was close to 1.5 pounds. I have never fed from mid October to mid March. Could I have I guess I could have... but here is what I think. Your CNBG grow quite fast right up to about 9 inches that last 2 to 3 inches takes a while no matter how you feed them I think. A 2 pound CNBG isn't gonna get that way just off of feed. I believe genetics has some to do with it also! As I can catch a lot of 8 to 9 inch fish but 10 plus are not that easy?

If you feed in winter will you get to that possible 2 pound fish before I do? Well maybe... and maybe I already have some and I just can't hook them??

Bottom line is this. Any advise giving out here is just that. Free advise. If what you consider a "Pro" on this forum tells you something then I would take extra caution in what they say but that does not mean they are or will be right all the time. The term "It All Depends" was made up for a reason. Keep in mind a "Pro" on this forum is just telling you what they think is best it does not mean it's written in stone...

Jason007, to be honest, I don't think your results are being questioned as much as the manor in which you presented them. Absolute truths are very rare in fish management, and sometimes results that seem absolute, are more a result of a moment in time where everything hits just right, and may not be repeatable for others. I've had to learn this lesson myself.

Right now, I'm wintering some CNBG in cages, and I can tell you that at my particular brood pond, they feed more readily in ultra cold TX water (35-45 degrees) than those that are uncaged in the same pond. Why, I've got no clue. Is it light penetration, is it the inability to retreat to warmer water, is it the increased competition due to the restricted space, or is it just the fact that these caged CNBG are only a foot or two from the food, and therefore exert less energy to eat? I certainly don't know why yet, but later this spring when these CNBG are pulled, I'll compare the size of the caged vs. noncaged CNBG and check for size differences. If the caged CNBG grew over the winter and showed positive results, then I'll repeat the experiment next winter. So I guess what I'm saying is that if the caged CNBG grew more than the noncaged CNBG, that proves nothing. It's just a step in the journey to find out why, make those results repeatable for me, and then share those results to see if they're repeatable by others.

Good luck with your future plans.

Here is the original thread that spawned this current thread of "The winter, pellet feeding debate! Results are in!".
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=394452&page=1

The Lousiana winter is not the typical northern winter, cold water conditions that created the philosophy or thinking of no or little pellet winter feeding noted in the original thread. Some fish such as trout can readily be fed in real cold water. Many of those proposed ideas in the original thread were meant for ponds that develop significant ice cover during winter where water temps range from 39 to 33 or even 32F during aeration periods.

As Lusk in NE Central Texas noted during the recent PB conference VI: “ I feed (fish) till water temps hit 46”. If I had in Ohio the Lousiana winter climate, I would be pressing the envelope to feed my fish all winter just as Jason describes. Members have noted above that ‘winter’ feeding of fish is often dependent at least two main things: 1. water temperature and 2. if the fish are willing to eat. There are some cautions to be aware of as noted in the related threads for feeding pellets to fish during water temperatures below “46F”. Nothing is really absolute with raising fish except they will eventually die.

With advice here "you get what you pay for". One has to accept free and paid advice with some caution and often it should be compared to 2nd and 3rd opinions. This in reality also applies to paid advice from a doctor (MD). Believing blindly what an "expert" tells you can be risky. Sometimes that advice has some degree of bias or lack of full knowledge. who really has full knowledge? Adults should know this once they reach post teen years. Also advice is not always understood exactly as the advice is/was delivered.

Not believing the consensus and then trying something different is often how many new things are learned. Forging new ground is often adventuresome and definitely a learning experience. Will that learning be shared?

N8ly aptly stated in the original thread: “Don’t let anyone here or anywhere hold you back from doing your own experiments. That is how we all collectively will keep pushing the envelope and learning new things.”
“Some advice I have for anyone else reading this thread is, take the advice of the masses into careful consideration before moving forward with your own fish management plan or experiment. Make smart decisions within your own comfort level and spread out your risk according to the type of person you are. Essentially your management style with fish is typically the same as you would manage any of your resources in life. Diversify and be prepared for any and all potential consequences. (ie) If it comes fast, it can leave just as fast. “

Jason - please keep advised as to the progress of your new pond and the dandy, fast start, CNBG you are raising. Good job and very nice fish for their age.
1. Where did you buy these fish - remind other members???.
2. What brand and type of fish food are you using???
3. You might want to mark some of the larger BG with fin clipping to track their growth, recapture rate, and life span.?
We can learn from your experiences with winter feeding of BG in Lousiana. I am also really curious about how the green sunfish or their hybrids perform in your pond. From this thread:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=30438&Number=389257#Post389257

And another thread that ran at the same time, trying to interject a little science into the subject:

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=30744&Number=394982#Post394982

Cody Note: the link above involves some insightful discussions of feeding fish in cold water and many pond owners, even some in the north, do feed their fish during cold water conditions. My favorite phrase that I learned from my major professor in grad school is "It all depends".

I support anyone stepping out and trying something. Congrats on nice fish.

I reckon several are irritated by an aggressive / abrasive tone.

As a research scientist, this is not enough to take a theory to a fact. Doesn't mean you shouldn't continue your way- the isolated datapoints look good. Just don't demand others accept blanket statements. Universal facts are rare with fish.

This place welcomes polite interchange of ideas among open-minded fish lovers.

Very nice post. I know, I have a way of pissing people off. But you know , I was nearly run out of here on a rail on that last thread. I just stopped posting to it because of the animosity it was creating. I decided to go forward with what I was doing and let the results of my trial or error speak for themselves. You might even note that I never posted here again until yesterday, from the time of my last post on the other thread.

I've said it before, and I dont mind saying it again. You guys are indeed a bunch of nice guys. Polite and helpful. This is the forum I'll be posting to when I need advice, make no mistake about that. It's the finest pond management site on the internet and that can not in any way be questioned.

Now to answer your questions.
#1 The coppernose bream were putchased from Mr. Chris Brousard at Shepards fisheries just out of Lafayette Louisiana. He has a gorgeous place over there.
The bass were purchased from American Sportfish and the advice I received here influenced that decision......as they are Tiger bass. American Sportfish also threw in 60, or so, of their Coppernose bream.

#2 , I've tried several different types of food and ended up sticking to All Star. They seem to like it better, and it's more affordable at about 21.00 per 40 pound bag. I've gotten good results with it so that's what I'm sticking with.

The photos do the fish no justice at all. They all came from a cell phone with me trying to gently handle the fish and use the other hand to take the photo. They are gorgeous.

All Star fish food is a stranger here. Can you provide any detail such as protein and fat content with manufacturer and location? Are any of your bass or uninvited guests of GSF(HBG) eating the fish food? You should also see good growth rates of the non CNBG. Also keep us advised to their status in your pond.

Funny you asked. I just walked in the house to post this photo.
This bass was caught at 11:37 am central time, feb 23, 2015.
This is one of the tiger bass that came from American Sportfish.

I stocked 55 of these on September 10, 2014.
In that time we have gone from fingerling to this.

Beautiful fish, Jason. And your pond looks great, too!

Sprkplug, thanks so much for the link to the article. I was not aware that too much of the wrong kind of fat could be harmful for fish in cold water. Since carbs seem to be the culprit (as is the case with humans, too!), this would argue for a high protein, low carb feed.

Another variable to consider is pond depth. Rapid cooling of the water is dangerous in winter, so shallow ponds would likely be most at risk. Deep water is more stable and likely protective. Or maybe I'm wrong, does anybody know?

Another interesting article about winter feeding bluegill is on the American Sportsfish site. They make the point that cold water feeding increases body weight more efficiently than feeding when the fish are spawning, since so much energy goes into the spawn.

http://www.americansportfish.com/?option...8&Itemid=45

They also argue for sinking pellets, as the unconsumed portion will add to pond nutrients. They are not endorsing summer feeding quantities, mind you, just reassuring that some uneaten feed on the bottom is no big deal in most instances.

Some questions: If feeding happens during a sudden cold snap, are we endangering the fish by bringing them up to the surface? Or does one exposure to chilly surface water for 10 minutes really make much difference? Can the risk be minimized by sinking pellets in, say, 4 to 8 feet of water with greater temperature stability?

Not sure how much faith I have in uneaten feed on the bottom being no big deal? If you can't watch the fish feed, how do you know if they're eating at all? How do you know how much to throw out? I keep envisioning a scenario wherein a pondowner just throws sinking feed, day after day throughout the winter months. Sounds like a scenario for a pond bottom carpeted by fertilizer to me.

Of course, if that happens, they will probably be happy to recommend ($$$) a treatment option....

I'll second that!

My take on it, is yes, pellets will add nutrients to the water. Another reason I don't use sinking pellets. I have enough nutrients and have to fight off FA as it is.

I didn't read sparkplugs article. I believe that people who want large fish are reading too much into the scientific effect of nutrition. IE fats , amino acids , carbs, and whatnot. I have not seen any analysis of the fat content of a frog, a tadpole, threadfin shad, golden shiners, fathead minnows, crawfish, small turtles, a broad spectrum of insects which are largely protein or any of the many many other menu items for Bass and bream. The fish certainly do not take any of this into account when they are hungry. You will never see a bream or bass grab a forage item, flip it over and look for the crude analysis on the back before consumption.

Adding to this. Here are two more monster bream caught today, Feb, 23, 2015, the first at 12:48 pm central time. The second fish at 1:15 pm central.
There are not just a few of these in my pond as has been suggested. These are not freak fish that vastly outgrew the others. I do not know what more I can do to make people believe. I brought the results, and the photos don't lie.
These fish have grown vastly through my winter feeding program. That is glaringly obvious.


And this Monster. Caught at 1:15 pm.

Tony - for my situation in the midwest, I concur. In our fertile NE ponds, wasted pellets [floating onto shoreline or sinking to pond bottom] merely exacerbate excessive nutrient load issues and lead to vegetation control issues, water quality issues, and possibly fish kill scenarios. However, for BOWs that are infertile, these nutrients may be useful. Think Richmond Mill - perfect example of pellets helping to improve fertility in an otherwise nearly sterile, highly acidic/low PH BOW. Feeding created an outstanding fishery under Lusk direction which never existed prior.

I can buy into that. If a BOW is infertile to begin with, then maybe there will be some benefit. However I still question whether or not you are feeding the fish directly, or applying fertilizer by feeding sinking pellets. Stimulating the natural forage chain by fertilization sounds great, but I'm not sure high dollar fish pellets would be my first choice in that application, were I the one tasked with paying for the feed.

I read a little on the American Sportfish page. I think the statement that Coppernose Bluegills take to feed more readily than "common"? bluegills might be worthy of it's own investigation.

Yeah, my pond to be is located on an acidic pine plantation. I'll have to lime as the water will likely be rather infertile otherwise. Don't want to use feed purely as fertilizer, of course, but I could tolerate a limited amount of uneaten stuff.

Anth - good post, this makes sense in your scenario it seems. Little extra nutrient level isn't going to impact your fishery or water negatively. Up here on my ponds it's all we can do to try and avoid excess loads. Less room for error - that's why I feed in short bursts [1-2 seconds] 10-15 minutes apart so fewer pellets will drift to banks or sink. Sinking food for me is only used in cages when feed training BG, YP, SMB, etc - and that's a AM 400 float sink. I still see a lot of it ending up on pond bottom with my AquaVu micro camera...rarely witness fish clean it up from pond bottom unfortunately.

Beautiful CNBG Jason - I think our CNBG are kinfolk!

George that is an outstanding Coppernose.
It does appear we have the same strain.


That is just a gorgeous fish man. I would have to mount a fish like that.
Mine have a ways to go yet. My fish will be 1 year on may 17. I have 3 months to go.

I figure by September I'll have some semi trophy size coppernose in my pond. If the growth rate of my fish are any indication of what's to come, there will be some very nice bream in my pond.

Tony, TJ, I think all 3 of us are pretty much feeding the same way. IMO, short observed feedings are the ticket in the winter. Which begs another question.

What's winter when dealing with CNBG? Is it water temp? If so, then mine feed most of the winter also. But, 45-55 degrees isn't winter water here. Many days the CNBG will consume a full throw in a matter of minutes in 45-55 degree water. Their metabolism is certainly more amped up than in 32-39 degree water, so feeding may actually add weight during those "warm ups".

Not sure what my water temp is, but my brood pond will have a solid sheet of ice on it by tomorrow. The edges of both the big puddle and the brood pond are gaining ice quickly. I think any conversation about CNBG feeding in winter is meritless unless water temperature is taken into account. A 5-10 degree change in 90 degree water seems to have little effect on CNBG activities of any kind, but a 5-10 degree difference at 50 degrees is a very big deal.

I was bored so I hit the big puddle with a fly rod today and stood in 2" of sleet. I assure you they weren't feeding, or biting.

When I think of winter, I think of ice covered ponds, brown grass and no leaves on the trees. You sure wouldn't be outside without a long sleeve shirt, jacket and hat.

Jason, what are your winter water temps? What temp is the water that the CNBG are actively feeding in?

I also will feed limited amounts during the cold water period, but mostly to the HBG..they tend to be more receptive to feeding at cold temps than the northern BG in our ponds. I guess if I had to pin down a number, It would be mid forties (water temps) as my cut-off point. And even at those temps I feed extra sparingly, and only during those time periods where we have had a few days where the high air temps reached the low fifties, with the forecast calling for same over the next couple days. I truly wonder if the HBG would eat whether it was in their best interest, health wise, or not. It certainly appears that might be the case.

And to reiterate, I don't worry about my fish consuming natural forage during the cold water period. It's the processed protein that I wonder about.

In that respect, I have always based my feeding decisions on water temps, but air warms up much quicker...and I have personally observed my bluegills becoming more aggressive on feed during a brief warm up of air temps, when the much slower to react water temps were still quite low.

Good point. I wonder if this discussion wouldn't be more meaningful if the word "winter" is replaced with "cold water" and define what cold water is, perhaps 45 degrees or less.

Bingo!

Scott, I’ll give you some temp numbers for CNBG feeding activity.
It’s not a matter of absolute temp numbers but relative numbers based not only on the direction of temp change but on rate of change of near surface water temps.
Our CNBG will slow down from ~50 F until they stop feeding about 45 degrees.
They will begin feeding at ~45F and increase activity upon warming temps.
G/

Sometimes it's the simplest things...... nice, Al!

Methinks progress has been made.

Tony I hope progress is being made. This is an extremely interesting and important aspect of southern fisheries management, and there's no reason for it to hit the crapper because of unchecked testosterone.

I'm done with this one.

IMHO Should anyone ever decide to start a cold water feeding thread, I suggest starting with this quote from George. Just the facts based on his observations. Now to me, this is useful info!

I'll throw some more fuel on this fire.

I have a max depth 14' BOW, just dug it deeper last summer, that is just over .10 acres. I tried to feed in the winter and failed. My fish are all trout, browns and rainbows with some golden rainbows as well. They literally will NOT take feed when my water hits just over 40 degrees. I can go days, try again, they won't take the feed. My pond gets its water from run off and geo thermal furnace discharge and is aerated all year long.

My neighbor has a pond same size in every way. His HOWEVER has an artesian well intake of 60GPM and his water does not get below 40 degrees ever. He'll get a skiff of ice on the top when it's 0 or less but the water just under that is much warmer, always at least 40. He has the EXACT same fish as me, same supplier as well. His inlet temperature is 52 degrees and does a great job regulating his water temp after it makes its way down his 60 foot creek we made.

My neighbor feeds his fish the same food I do. His fish TAKE the feed even when there's a skiff of ice on the top of the water and -9 outside! His fish are growing like CRAZY and have put on HUGE weight and inches this winter. My fish are doing nothing under the ice, caught a few ice fishing and they haven't done squat.

What I can't figure out is why his fish are taking feed now when mine shut down back in early November. My water temp in November was just over 40 degrees and his is just barely over 40 degrees now. Yet his fish act like it's a nice spring day and nail that feed, they are growing while mine are not as a result.

I am not a pro so take this with the proverbial grain of salt. FWIW Maybe it is at least partly explained by DO content of the water. Your neighbor is supplying his pond with high DO water after running thru the stream. If your geo is like mine, the water is piped directly from my well, thru the geo unit and then to the pond. Water as it comes from a well has near 0 dissolved O2. I have my winter diffuser located to keep open water over my geo discharge and the flow is directed across the diffuser in an effort to at least partially aerate it as it comes into the pond.

Edit: Your geo is also cooling your well water so you may be actually pumping colder water into your pond than your neighbor

tim - I think if the water temps at 3 ft to the bottom are measured, the temps of your neighbor's pond will be noticably warmer than your pond. I am guessing your pond temps from 3-4ft to bottom are 39-40F and those of your neighbor's pond are around 44-48F enough of a difference to stimulate active trout feeding.

My geo water runs 150' through 4" corrugated tubing. My guess is that my water gets pretty oxygenated. I also have the aerator running all winter. I should have DO readings in the max range come even fall. I'm not dismissing your theory Bill D., just challenging it. My neighbors water is about 45 degrees, in this current climate, when it comes off the mouth of his "creek". I think the stats on the geo water is cooling about 6 to 8 degrees when heating? If that is true, my discharge would be about 45, the same as his creek is.

All this aside, his water is, RIGHT NOW, colder then mine is in the fall. His fish still feed.

I believe this is an example of why nobody should ever use absolutes when discussing not only what fish will do but ANYTHING.

I make guns, when I started doing it there were ideas I had that the "experts" at the time said wouldn't work. I did those things, I did them well, and they weren't supposed to work. Now some people even look to me as an expert. I will not ever talk to anyone in absolutes unless they want to know what 2+2=

The OP of this thread is talking in absolutes, the advice he was given earlier in the other thread had absolutes, I never saw one piece of scientific evidence saying that the OP would be wrong. I still haven't seen any scientific evidence saying the OP is right. I have a pond next door that is not acting like it should be according to some on this site and I have my own pond acting exactly like what some on this site would think is normal.

When my fish were planted in October the DO reading was almost 10 according to the supplier.

Bill Cody, as I said, I temped his pond. He's at 40 but his temp is all through the water column except the very top foot. I've temped his at 14 feet, 12 feet, 5 feet, and bobbed that temp gauge right below the ice.

Ahh.. Sorry I couldn't help. My geo is hard lined from the well and discharges under the pond water level so no way to get air in my system even if I ran a 20 inch pipe! Well done. Should have had you design mine!

Edit:

If you don't mind telling me, how are you introducing air to the flow thru your geo so you can aerate it? Maybe something I can add. If I can get lots of bubbles out of my discharge flow it will keep open water and I can move my diffuser.

Additional info: When I designed mine, I set up a parallel circuit around my geo so I could use the same 300 feet of discharge pipe and provide 35 gpm directly to the pond from the well when pond water level gets low. Any suggestions you have on how to get air into both scenarios would be great!

You know, I really am trying to be nice and polite, but it's becoming very hard with little digs like this. You don't like what you saw here because I posted results that are contrary to some of the flame throwing I took? Tough. Go back and read the other thread and make sure you look at the parts where I told some of these guys what was going to happen ( in my case here in Louisiana) And it happened just like I said it would. Even after your buddy who fanned the flames came up with everything he could think of as to why my feeding tendencies would fail. And NOW WE SEE the results. Plain as day.
Let me go back and show you some of the remarks.

12/10/14

12/11/14

12/11/14

I really like this one with the condescending tone wanting proof and fact....which I have given him and what happened? STILL DISPUTES THE ACHIEVED RESULTS. An no, this isn't my first pond. This is not my first time fiddling with a pond.
The pond in my back yard is the first pond in my back yard. I should have mentioned something about that back when but didn't think it mattered.
12/11/14

Oh really? Ok well, I only have one thing to say about that. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Feb 23, 1:15 pm central.


But wait there's more. And then this.
12/11/14

I'm almost at a loss for words on the above. Did anyone say one pond in Louisiana would make paradigm shift? Is that anywhere on any thread I typed on? Additonally everyone knows I'm in Louisiana, and apparently knows what the climate is like here, which has now seemingly turned into a SAD EXCUSE while demonstrating the finer art of backpedaling after seeing the results, of my umm, " test mules." Everyone knew I was in Louisiana at the time of the above quoted comment, But Did that stop this??? Oh nooooooooo,,,,,,no no noooooo. Of course not.

12/14/14

Trust me when I tell you guys that I have nothing against anyone here. But this above quote has been completely and utterly demolished, obliterated beyond any type of salvation.



21/11/14
12/13/14

And I have done just that. Just like I said I would.
It's right before your very eyes. We don't see any sickly fish. We see healthy fish that have grown VASTLY, that's right, VASTLY, when some said that could not possibly happen, with references to pondmeisters and whatnot. Do not try to change it to " oh you're in Louisiana". Everyone knew that before hand. I don't want to see the backpeddling and I'm not even going to take it into account. I told you guys I was going to do something. And in the face of raging nay sayers and criticism, I carried it out like a Seal team mission.

I am going to say it one last time. Feed your Coppernose Bream. You are not going to kill them or adversely effect them. And yes, Absolutely 100% without a doubt, they will grow in the winter time. They will stop taking your pellets LONG BEFORE any harm comes to them.

T57, your reply reminds me of what I heard time and again at the PB Conference: it depends! I wish for more fertility and envy your situation, but if I were in your situation I'd wish for less fertility and envy my situation. The algae is always greener on the other guy's pond, I guess.

By the way, have you looked into Floating Biohaven Islands at all? Pricy, but they sound terrific for dealing with excess nutrient issues. If I eventually put in a brood pond packed with tilapia & freshwater prawns, I intend to use the Islands to keep things under control.

We won't be letting anyone, old or new, get past our boundaries of respectful conduct.

This thread will be locked for the evening.

Everyone take a breather and reflect on how you are expected to conduct yourselves on the Pond Boss Forum.

This thread is now unlocked.

FAIR WARNING: I don't care who you are or how long you've been on Pond Boss. If you make another uncivil, sarcastic, or underhanded comment, you will be gone, period. Aside from Jason007, the rest of you know me personally, and I'm not kidding.

If you can't be nice, DO NOT POST.

But wait, doesn't it say somewhere that the goal of forum participation is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women?

I guess what needs to be remembered here is (water temp) maybe? Jason I am not far from you here in Arkansas and I fed my CNBG around Jan 31st when I was at my pond, and they did feed and I was really surprised that they did. I was not expecting it but at that point is was not very cold here yet? I do not know what my water temp was either.

So maybe depending on water temps in your giving area this would work, but as some stated you and I both don't really have "Winter" like folks from Kansas on up. We may get a few nasty days like we are now, but in a week to a few days it will be gone and then we are right back up to air temps in the 50's and lower 60's. Me being from Wisconsin my while life you can't really call this quote Winter down here.

From what I can take from this is in my situation if I have water temps around 50 or a bit higher I should be able to feed some then. Which I never really thought about doing. And also tells me I could feed into mid November easy instead of mid October here and maybe longer if temps are right. So thanks for the input. What we ALL need to be careful about is making blanket statements about a study we did because what may work for us may not work 8 to 10 hours North of us. Not saying you made a blanket statement just saying we need to be careful about doing that.

RC

In the spirit of helpful camaraderie, Did you guys know that quadrupling your daily chlorthalidone dose causes you to frequent the bathroom every 3 minutes?

Jason, you never answered my question about your water temps in winter. In regards to fish, the nomenclature that is given to the season has no meaning to them, but photoperiod and water temp, along with water quality does.

I'll ask again, during the winter, as in the last week of February 2015, what is your water temperature?

With you being in La and me being in Indiana, "winter" means two totally different things. If I wanted to feed my fish, I would have to cut through 10" of ice to feed them. You don't have that issue. That's where water temperature comes into play.

That's why I am asking about water temperature. What is yours?

Sparkie, I have it on good authority that this effect can be reversed by drinking a quart of Milk of Magnesia, and I would advise you do do this as soon as possible.

I will try that Yolk, just as soon as the hair on my arms ceases flying off into space like a tarantula defending its territory.

While Conan wasn't exactly a Viking, it may be a good time to review the Viking Laws:


1) Be Brave and Aggressive
a) Be Direct
b) Grab all opportunities
c) Use varying methods of attack
d) Be versatile and agile
e) Attack one target at a time
f) Don't plan everything in detail
g) Use top quality weapons

2) Be Prepared
a) Keep weapons in good conditions
b) Keep in shape
c) Find good battle comrades
d) Agree on important points
e) Choose one chief

3) Be A Good Merchant
a) Find out what the market needs
b) Don't promise what you can't keep
c) Don't demand overpayment
d) Arrange things so that you can return

4) Keep the Camp in Order
a) Keep things tidy and organized
b) Arrange enjoyable activities which strengthen the group
c) Make sure everybody does useful work
d) Consult all members of the group for advice

I prefer Yolks Conan outlook on life.

So esshup in his defense...
since winter does vary so much from region to region...
wouldn't it be incorrect to claim "bluegill should not be fed in the winter"?
Because in some regions with very mild winters it is probably productive to feed bluegill in the winter?

I guess it almost always goes back to "it depends".

To me it seems silly to ask what the temperatures were as it is obvious to me they are quite a bit warmer than norther climes, so he is able to feed. I will take a stab and say if the fish are accustomed to floating pellets they are able to utilize them down to lower temperatures. What is the threshold temperature in his pond at which the fish wont gain from food? Who knows, I'm sure it depends.

If I stopped feeding my aquarium fish through the winter, they would not be happy with me. They are quite happy with their blood worms and flakes 2x a day and sit at 81F most of the time (except for the past few weeks where it has been down to 78, the heaters cannot keep up!).

liquidsquid if I ever change my posting name I am going to change it to "It Depends!"

and this could be my avatar!

Earlier in this post someone said Bob Lusk said 46 is when he would stop feeding. So I guess to answer question liquidsquid it would be around 46 I bet. Notice I said around. Bob Lusk does not do anything halfway when it comes to ponds. So if he says 46 is about it then I would have to venture to say that's pretty darn close for the most part. That's not to say they wouldn't eat a little at 44 or 43 but in what he has discovered 46 seems to be where it might turn from productive to non productive...

RC

Make sure your name includes the IT, otherwise it might create stories.

I think you should just change it to "Depends" and we can all giggle about your bladder problems....

It is about time things get a little humorous in this topic. It needed a little off topic relief.

yes it did Mr. Cody!

At the time of my fist post to this thread, the temp was 51F.
We have had a cold snap , again, and it's at 49f about 3 feet down, as of about 30 minutes ago when I was feeding the fish.

I'd honestly like to know the water temp. Assumptions and guessing won't help us in determining on whether you should bother try feeding or not. Data IS useful.

For CNBG to be eating pellets in cool water, the water logically has to be above "Lusk's 46F" feeding guideline. Since CNBG are known to be cold temperature sensitive, as in not surviving well in ice covered ponds, I am surprised that Jason's BG are actively eating pellets in cool 49F water. I attribute this feeding behavior to these BG are still relatively young and actively in an early rapid growth phase that requires ample food. Whatever the reason that particular strain of CNBG appears to be a high quality strain of BG. It will be very interesting to see how they perform in the next several years especially after they move from the body lengthening phase and enter the mid-life body bulking phase as breeding dominant adults. This high amount of early growth lengthening & bulking, as with numerous fast growing species, may shorten their life span. It would be very educational to monitor this particular group of fish for longevity.

Maybe it is good we have some of these dust-ups now and then. It lets us know that this is one of the few forums that is dedicated to friendly and civil, plus providing a lot of good scientific and imperical information.

Anyway, we just got home from the trip, via Edmond, OK. We got 4-5 inches of snow there yesterday.

However, I did want to add a little bit about winter feeding. Most years it would be very difficult for me to do any feeding from Thanksgiving to about Easter. My fish would need their own upward drilling auger, and skates or snowshoes to get to the food.

I got a bunch of HSB at the end of November and had to break holes in the ice on both fishing ponds with my tractor/front-end loader. It has been so cold here this season that the state Dept of Natural Resources has not been able to do very much trout stocking, which normally happens bi-weekly from mid-December to the end of April.

I've never tagged my fish, but I think I'm going to buy a tagging set from our friend Greg G., this season. For years I've felt that my fish, especially the bluegill and channel cats, grow under the ice in the 33 to 39 degree F water.

Definitely more research is needed about individual species of fish growth rates with ample food in water below 50F down to 39F.

Jason, thanks for posting the water temps. That water temp makes a big difference, at least for me. For me, those water temps are late Spring and early to mid Fall, not winter. That's why I was questioning water temp. That's great growth on the fish. I echo Bill Cody's comments - It would be great to keep tabs on their growth and lifespan.

I could provide that in relation to various kinds of trout. But it is also commonly available in the public domain.

On an extreme, a few years ago we achieved a 0.7 conversion rates with rainbow trout at 53 degrees F. That is, every 0.7 pounds of high-protien/high-fat sinking pellets produced 1 pound of flesh on a sample of approximately 25,000 fish in 53 degree F raceways.

That probably ain't gonna happen with any warm water fish, nor with most feed available to the average pond owner. Our food was super de-hydrated. I don't remember the protien/fat content, but I believe it was about 44/15, and used a lot of fishmeal.

"That is, every 0.7 pounds of high-protien/high-fat sinking pellets produced 1 pound of flesh..."

You got more weight put on the fish than you fed it, Ken?

If correct, does this mean there was other forage the fish were eating, or am I missing something?

No. The fish were swimming in 3600 gallon/minute raceways from a mountainside spring without nutrients except for e-coli that fed the spring from large cattle pastures.

Instead, it had to do with the amount of de-hydration in the product and a few other tweaks. It was a funded research project through West Virginia University, using food specially prepared by a major fish feed manufacturer in Catawissa, PA. They are not a PB sponsor nor advertiser.

In general, they do not sell to the public, or in small quantities.

Because it was a specially formulated food for this project, I don't remember if we were able to get a forecasted cost for the food per pound.

I've gotten other food from them, usually split bags, experiments, etc. My fish seem to do well with it. When I saw our good friend from Ball Grounds, GA, the other day, he had high praise for their products, even though he is now an "ambassador" for a supplier of great fish feed, and major PB supporter, that many of us have had problems aquiringing in the past.

When the ice goes out, my younger son and I want to make a visit to your pond. I can tell you a lot more then.

Sounds good!

Jason007, it seams to me and based off of your water temps we are running real close together. My pond is located along the Louisiana Texas border due west of Shreveport. For the people who are not familiar with La, It takes me 6 hrs to drive from Shreveport to Venice La. NW la to the extreme SE La. So La is a long and narrow state (4 hrs to drive E to West). With this in mind, my water temps in Late November was 51 and may have been influenced by additions of water well water. My temp a week ago was 59 due to the warm 70 degree days we experienced. Now with a 1 to 2" ice storm I have not made it to the pond but maybe today I will. And being a new pond guy back in Nov. I was told to feed my CNBG for 1 sec per day with my Texas Hunter feeder and to do it at the warmest time of the day. I fed that way till the water temps came up and then increased the feed to 3 times a day@ 2 sec feeding. I am trying to get the same results as you in CNBG growth rates. I was thinking of reducing the feeding times just before last weekend after the cold spell but I went to the PBC and I learned from Mr Lusk that we can feed to 46 degrees. I will adjust my feeding when I ck the water temps if temp is below 46 but if it is not, I will continue feeding at these rates unless I see something to make me change. I am not sure of the outcome, because I am new, but if I mess up some how or my fish don't live as long it's my call, just like you. But I will say this. This forum has helped me out a lot !!! And I will continue with the IT Depends
Tracy

Bottom line is there are some general guide lines to try and go by that the pros will tell you about. That does NOT mean it will or won't work that way in each and every pond! Come on guys were dealing with fish here and mother nature. They both have a mind of there own that's for sure!

Keep in mind that most studies are done over several years just to make sure that you did not get lucky a couple of times or for some freak reason it just worked once or twice. Each and every one of us manage their ponds in some kinda different way. I do not do exactly what Eric does or TJ or Bill Cody or n8ly, for that matter, but I am still having success.

So is my way wrong and their way is right no! There are just to many determining factors about each pond that can be different to say who is right or wrong with what they are doing unless it's flat out just "Stupid" for a better lack of words. With that said I can't wait to get back to fly fishing for my 10 inch BG! This weather is killing me......

RC

Ken,
I've got one of the tagging kits that Greg sells and it works great and is easy to use.
Dan

RC51 provides good philosophy - there are numerous ways to have success and failure with lots of variability in-between.

Feeding of BG is still in its infancy with respect to the science. Just like people are different so are BG (even in the same brood). There is no doubt local conditioning as well as bioenergetic , weather and reproductive issues with BG feeding in winter/early spring (water temps below 65F and short photoperiods). It is common in warmwater fish to see feeding activity increase with small changes in water temps over a couple of days. Even in the absence of water temp increase BG (female especially) will start to eat about 30-45 days before the photo period increases much as they are engaged in gamete (egg)development prior to the spawn. So it really does depend. IMO it is important if you are trying to increase BG spawn numbers and survival to try and have them in good condition (via feed if you do feed) coming out of winter.

Amen Brother!

Yeah I wish I had a small second pond to experiment in and do stuff that's out of bounds so to speak! Man that's the only real way to learn what is or is not worthy of trying. I think most of us would love to do that but we are afraid to use our main and only pond to do so. Heck I have enough trouble keeping it right without experimenting in it!!!!

RC

Funny, I think you just described my main/only pond!

One big experiment!

And I'm not sure I'll ever have it "right", whatever that might be . But I'm sure having an awful lot of fun along the way, and a ton of learning!

PS - I know what you mean, RC, I'm just adding a little lightheartedness (kinda, 'cause it sure seems like a big experiment!)

You know, RC, that's one reason I am seriously considering a secondary pond now. For broodstock prawns and tilapia, or maybe CNB, extra water into main pond if necessary during droughts, fun experiments. Didn't even consider it before the PB Conference.

The 2nd or 3rd mini-pond does not have to be very big to do some fish experimenting. The big benefit to the mini pond is it is easy to start over. It is often best to drain them annually or occasionally during winter so the bottom soils can aerate, decompose, and weeds will die, then refill in spring for your next crop or experiment.

Jason, You are growing some beautiful fish, that's my opinion and many others have said the same. I still see nothing "proven" or "disproven". But congrats on the start of one very fine fishery that's all yours!

Technically he has 'proven' to himself what is working for his situation. I also believe he has gotten some great growth of his BG. I hope they live for 5 to 6 more years and we can see pictures of those fish. The difficulty is how do we know they are the original stocked CNBG unless he fin clips, marks, or tags some of them?

The lack of accurate measuring or same-fish-marking is what I was personally referring to when I said nothing was proved nor disproved, at least to me...completely agreed it seems to have been his personal proof. I too would love to see some growth on individual fish, and they are indeed lookin good!

Would be interesting to run an experiment by weighing/measuring and caging two batches of BG...feed both until 46 degrees, then only feed one. When water temp warms back up to 46 degrees, pull them and weigh/measure again. Keep track of feed and see how much growth they get per feed given. Both cages would get ghe benefit from other things eating the feed...only one cage would benefit from actually eating the feed...

Sean

The results would depend a lot on location. BG do still eat when its cold - just not as much descending with the temps. The question would be how much more did the non feed fish shrink over winter. Even the feed group would likely not grow much with sustained temps under 45.

You have to bring them inside for the winter like I do. :-) YOY anyway.