Here's a photo that was posted on BigBluegill.com last evening, by SoCal member Ledhead. It shows a curious looking Florida strain CNBG. Or does it?

Is there something else in the mix here? A RES influence perhaps? I don't have any experience with these warm water bluegills, and simply don't know what to call this. Female CNBG? Hybrid? I know it looks different from my BG x RES hybrids, but that's all I've got.

Curious markers on this fish. Is that considered scale tipping, together with a small opercular flap?

Almost 11 inches, 1 3/4 pounds.

My thinking is it's not unusual judging by the pictures George has posted. However I'm interested in what George has to say.

I think this fish just has it's Halloween costume on....

Couple more, same angler different fish. How much stock should be placed in the scale tipping on the 'shoulder' being indicative of a male?

They all look like nice CNBG to me. I see no indication of RES genetics in them.

I agree, they don't look like what I'm used to seeing in a BG x RES hybrid. The angler fishes these waters a lot, and he's accustomed to seeing these fish....and he's seeing something different in a few specimens. I'm curious as to what it may be, whether it be simple diversity among individuals, or something more interesting.

What about the gender markers....what do you see Travis?

Weird, they don't look like BG I have ever caught, very light coloration and the specks made me think of some kind of hybridization, too. Other than the specks though I don't see any other characteristics that suggest hybridization that I can discern at least.

Sex ID is also challenging for me. Opercular tabs are not very pronounced on any fish, which is one of the characteristics I rely on most for ID. My guesses are all male, but I'm hardly certain:

1. Male - based on color and shape, but opercular tab is still abbreviated like a female.

2. This fish looks like a male due to the scale tipping, but Bruce says he's sampled females with scale tipping - so it's not 100% guarantee trait of male.

3. Male - but again opercular tab isn't much to go by - it's also quite small.

4. I'm guessing male, but it's rather light colored and opercular tab is smallish, again.

What's the name of the lake?

I think there's a hint of RES in them because of the coloring. Do you know what other Lepomis are in that BOW?

As for sex:
Per the opecular tab, I'd say all female.
Looking at scale tipping I'd say:
Male
Female
Male
Female

But, I'm not sure enough about the 2 that might be males to put them in a "male only" BG pond.

Look at fish #3. Can you explain the lure? I see the jighead tied directly to the line, but a large barrel swivel behind the jighead, also with line tied to it.

I can't be sure on all of the photos, but I THINK most if not all of these fish came from Perris. I know there are RES present, but not sure if any other lepomis are in there also.

I think photo #3 shows one of Led's very own belly spinners. His handmade/tied jigs and lures are the stuff of legend!

I see scale tipping on your females Scott...I wouldn't stock any of these in my male BG fishery, with exception maybe of #1. They are beautiful fish though - never seen BG quite like that before.

Tony, I've fished Perris. There are some bruiser LMB AND RES in there too.

Beautiful fish!
This is the only photo that I see a hint of female pure CNBG characteristics:

Okay, so there's a variance of opinions regarding the sex of these fish.

Unlike George however, I have ZERO experience with CNBG. With that in mind, can we look at these photos and even begin to hypothesize as to gender based characteristics?

Particularly, the apparent (to me anyway) discrepancy between scale tipping and size of opercular flap? From an admittedly northern enthusiast's POV, all of these fish appear female based solely on opercular characteristics...I know it is unwise to base a determination on one marker, AND I suppose that some of these might be immature male specimens, although I find that somewhat unlikely. So where does that leave us?

Do coppernose males have smaller opercular flaps than northern strain?
Are these immature males?
Is scale tipping indicative of males, or just how reliable is it?
Is there something else in the mix with at least some of these fish?

Tony, do we know what time of year these fish were caught?

Could any of these be males posing as females during spawning?

Scott that's an interesting thought. I don't know the time frames involved, although it is my understanding that these are all pretty recent fish.

All of these look like females to me, but sexing CNBG can be tricky, especially if these were caught out of spawning season. Its too bad most folks just take photos of their large male CNBG with the prominent colors and characteristics, and we see very few photos of large CNBG females like these…

I just went through my database of CNBG photos, and I confess, I don't have any good photos of large coppernose females either...

Glad to see Todd chime in on this subject!

Al (FireIsHot) and I have been discussing this very subject as a result of follow-up of last week’s fishing trip at Al’s lake. We have a problem comparing my light colored OTS CNBG from my turbid water pond to his dark colored OTS CNBG from his clear water lake.

We did a lot of comparisons of our CNBG caught the past week from each of our ponds, as well as previous photos, and came up with M/F ID that we thought correct , until I ran the photos past Todd Overton that is… We were wrong, according to Todd, by overlooking a key point plus the fact that CNBG can change color in a heartbeat. A new criteria from Todd was females vertical stripes are usually more broken and indistinct that males. He also examined other criteria. My only comment is that I have NEVER seen a mature male 9-11 inch CNBG with a small ear flap or missing prominate copper bar on it’s nose.

Thanks Todd, I thought only large OTC CNBG merited photos…
George

Black scale tipping is being thrown out the window by CNBG experts. This is good for the forum vault of knowledge...

Put your CNBG in a black bucket with clear water for few minutes, they will darken right up.

Yep, that's what I do to bring out pure CNBG characteristics for positive ID, but use dark live well ...thanks..

Interesting - presently using clear tap water instead of pond water in live well.
Add few drops of aquarium dechlorinator and spray water from hose to add O2 - works good,
Add pure O2 when necessary…
G/

I have seen the RES in my aquarium go from dark to light colored instantly. Most of the time they get along but last winter I had two get into "scuff" over who was the more dominant fish, both were very dark colored during the pissing match, neither one would back down. After a few minutes I went over and tapped on the glass to break it up, one of them moved off and instantly changed from very dark to light.

That's really interesting!
At one time I had a 7 lb SMB in a large aquarium in a tackle shop at Lake Texoma.
We could drop a few threadfin shad and that smallie would light up like a christmas tree...WOW!

Psssttttttttttttt............ George.

I think I know why you can't bring out the CNBG genetic traits on the fish in the cooler. Those look like LMB to me from here....

Now Scott - be nice - can't you tell dinner from CNBG?

Te he they look like dinner to me George



Pat W

I'll try to post some 5-7" CNBG pics tomorrow. I just happen to have a few.

So....is this a CNBG exclusive trait? Or does it still work for northern BG?

Our northern BG males display tipping, and I can only recall a couple instances of females (?) that had this appearance, while it appears it may be much more common with CNBG.

George, if I can't give family a hard time, who can I?

Yep, you are my little Bro..;>)

OK, ear tab blocked out. What would you call this one?



Almost all of my CNBG that come out of the brood pond are almost snow white, with solid yellow fins. The water is iron heavy, and I lightly dye it several times a year to help keep algae down. The rest of the pics show some of the different markings from the same brood stock, and all were caught in a 10 minute period, so no seasonal differences. All were given a 5 minute soak to make the colors come out. IIRC, they're all 5-8" long.

Is it just me, or does that pectoral fin look long on that first picture? Looks like it would fold forward and extend all the way to the eye.

Al, if that was a northern fish I would declare "female". But now those confounded coppernoses have got me all confused.

They can confuse me too, especially when I'm just looking for any possible hybrids. The second pic was taken at an angle to show the vertical stripes with the spots between them, because they were almost invisible with a straight shot. She was the first CNBG I have caught with markings like those.

BUMP?

female
female
female
male
male

How'd I do?

Bottom 2 are male CNBG.
No 1 has a pect fin length like a RES (could just be an oddity) as the rest looks Male CNBG except blocked out ear tab.
All of them have the copper scale band across the nose (normally male but in juveniles uncertain.
If I had to guess 3 is the closest to a female.

Here's #1 unblocked.



This CNBG is about 5", and the ear tab was the determining factor to me. It appears to me to be a damaged male ear tab, but color wise, this is pretty much what all my brood pond CNBG look like before being tanked for a few minutes. This tends to make determining sex difficult for me until these fish hit 6-7". My male CNBG also tend to have a brighter, more golden brow, while the females are more copper and darker.

I've also looked, and don't have one picture of a large female. I'll try to get some this week.

[color:#000099][/color]

I have several photos of female OTS CNBG but just post the big males. I cull all CNBG between 5-7 inches and leave smaller for bass food. I release everything over 8 inches.

Here's a few females caught on camera...

!








Couple of these could be "tricky" but not to worry - all released!

So what do you guys look for to determine sex on the CNBG?

Small opercular?
Coloration?
Scale tipping?
Size?
Copper band on forehead?

Do any of these traits carry more weight than others, when you make a decision? I like to take multiple features into consideration, but I've always thought there were a couple of traits that carried more weight than others, namely the large opercular and scale tipped shoulders that I considered particular to males. Do you find this to hold true on CNBG?

I really thought Al's fish looked female, based on it's projected nose body dynamic, overall coloration, light chest area, and lack of scale tipping. But, I didn't know that it was only 5" long. If that fish had identical features except for being 8" long, would the prognosis still be female?

Another example is George's photos, 2 and 3. I don't know the length, but from my perspective I don't see any scale tipping, and I see a small opercular. However, those fish have a deep bronze or golden breast area, which I see on males up here, especially during the spawn. So to me, I have contradictory markers on the same fish. In this case I might let size help me decide.

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand these southern bluegills.

See this from the archives

COPPERNOSE BLUEGILL[/b] = CNBG





Found primarily in the southern U.S. Does not thrive in cooler, northern waters of the U.S.

Also an omnivore, that eats zooplankton, small fish and does quite well on pelleted feed.

High fecundity which enhances it's ability to act as a primary forage fish.

Can reach two pounds. One pound fish is considered large.


One Nice Coppernose -

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...ite_id=1#import

CNBG variation Fla vs Ark -
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...ite_id=1#import

Now I think those photos Ewest posted are easy.... scale tipping, bright copper band, round body dynamic vs. more elongated, very dark breast area, larger opercular, (although I beginning to wonder if northern males have a more pronounced flap?),

AND, there's a reference in the photos that allows one to gauge size/maturity. I wouldn't hesitate to call those fish males. If that is incorrect, could someone please help me in determining where I've gone off track???

Tony, I don’t pay any attention to sex ID on immature CNBG - when they hit 10+ inches there is no doubt. Major characteristics for Male ID for me is large ear tab and prominate copper bar on nose.
Scale tipping iffy..

Thanks George. It does appear that a couple of your male CNBG have smaller operculars than what I would expect to see on mature fish.

Maybe a slightly different opercular shape also, compared to the northern BG's I'm accustomed to seeing....hard to say.

...more Male OTS CNBG

Anyone ever seen a CNBG that looks like this one?
Male or female?
Caught a couple of weeks ago, courtesy of Mrs. G/ …

George1

A lot of my CNBG look light like that cause of the water clarity, I think. As far as the fin damage or whatever it is they don't look that way
Pretty good looking fellers. I got mine from Todd.


Pat W

I can't tell if there's scale tipping or not... Small opercular... not overly dark coloration on the chest... unable to tell if nose projection present...fish appears "tall" however...size appears to indicate maturity....overall coloration washed out...

Once again, I go with female.

Tony, I really enjoy and appreciate your contribution regarding evaluation of characteristics of CNBG.

I don’t consider sex ID important to our program because of my culling program. Everything between 5 and 7 inches is culled and this is the most difficult sizes to determine sex for me.

I agreed with your female ID but was puzzled of coloration. I didn't measure or put it into live well to darken but would have helped, but since this has been more of an academic exercise for me, I did not bother. IMO “tallness” is an inherent characteristic of Overton’s CNBG - they appear to get “taller and broader when they approach 9 inches - I seldom see more than 10 inch CNBG these days.
I don’t know if Todd uses this characteristic in selection of brood stock.

Anyway, I ran this CNBG sex ID past Todd Overton - here is his response:

“This one looks like a male to me. We see this out of semiturbid water on our OTS.
Has a dark breast and opercular tab placement and size (should grow more) indicates male.”

Like Todd said in earlier post - "sex ID of OTS CNBG can be "tricky" for immature fish."

So this fish is an immature male? Would it be possible to elaborate on Todd's statement concerning opercular size and placement? What is seen there (opercular) that differentiates this fish from female??

Always more questions!

Tony, keep asking all you want!

This thread has been good for me, because I've been trying to find traits that are absolutely repeatable for 5-7" CNBG. Every time I find a coloring or marking that's consistently male or female, I'll catch an opposite sexed fish that has the same characteristics, and I have to rethink what I've thought to be an exclusive trait. That trait may be a dominant one, but not an exclusive one, and that's a reflection of my evaluation parameters, and not the fish itself.

To me at least, it's much easier to tell if a smaller CNBG has been hybridized, than determine the sex of the fish with absolute certainty.

Thanks Al. I'm beginning to wonder if there are any absolutes when it comes to sexing young CNBG. My biggest problem is lack of familiarity with the fish. I've never seen a live one, but I hope to change that.

At this point, there seems to be a greater difference between northern BG's and coppers than what I initially thought. At least where gender definition is concerned.

My lack of experience with these southern fish is really showing through.

Oh now this is just mean. ....

Let's tell the guy with OCD tendencies that the answers he seeks are in these threads, then make it impossible for him to open the links.

He'll claw the pixels right off his monitor...it'll be hilarious!!

Dwight knows how to fix this. They use to work well.

Al said :
" I've thought to be an exclusive trait. That trait may be a dominant one, but not an exclusive one, and that's a reflection of my evaluation parameters, and not the fish itself."

Not necessarily - it depends.

Keep in mind BG/CNBG survival strategy ( aka sneekers , cuckholds as per Neff studies). See this.


PB articles

http://www.sdstate.edu/nrm/outreach/pond/upload/Bluegill-Nesting-Nov-Dec-2005.pdf

http://www.sdstate.edu/nrm/outreach/pond/upload/The-Secret-Life-of-Bluegill-Jul-Aug-2005.pdf

Neff --- http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers/Neff&Clare%20Paternity%20in%20sunfish.pdf

http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers/Neff&Lister%20Genetic%20life%20history.pdf

http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers/paternity_and_cannibalism.pdf

http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers/sperm_investment_patterns.pdf

http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers/nestling_recognition.pdf

http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers/genetic_paternity_analysis.pdf

The Neff web list -- http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers.htm


Cut and paste cant get links to work.

Thank you Eric, the links to the docs are appreciated.

More from Todd - he’s very busy right now in the middle of harvest!

“The dark breast gives this tricky fish away. Maybe young male..
And when I said young maybe I meant immature.. Just not yet a big dog on the playground.. - Interesting post. Keep it up.”

I saw the darker breast, but still considered it to be lighter, and not as large of an area when compared to the other photos of verified CNBG males.

So George's last photo, the one showing the washed out coloration, is an immature male? Never would've figured a fish with those dynamics (size) to be immature? Would the darker breast not indicate maturity? Or is this not reliable?

I'm very curious as to Todd's statement regarding opercular size and placement, indicating male. Would love to learn more about this, as the northern fish I am accustomed to seeing display different attributes here.

Cuckolds and sneakers must surely account for some instances of misidentification, but not all unless this behavior is much more widespread and prevalent than what I've previously thought.

Thanks everyone, for taking time to share info.

Tony, I think what's also throwing you is the muddy water that a number of pictures of fish are coming from. I don't know about you down where you're at, but muddy water up here is very rare in ponds.

Scott, I'm sure that's part of it, but the opercular is what's really puzzling me. Males with such small operculars? I get that on smaller, immature fish, but that fish Mrs. G is holding certainly has a lot of mass for an immature male doesn't it?

Maybe scale tipping and opercular size just don't factor in as heavily on coppers as they do on northern fish?

Here's typical CNBG coloring from my big puddle. He was almost solid black when he was first taken out, and actually lightened after a soak.

This one was 1 pound 9oz's, and if my son has a brain at all, is being held by my future daughter-in-law.

It still amazes me that 2 BOW's can actually be separated by a 15' dam, and the fish are colored so differently. I assume the clear water in the big puddle is caused by the abundance of vegetation.

Hey buddy - I've been waiting for you to post a photo of one of you big monsters!
Thanks - you and Josh are both catching trophys!

Tony, Scott is right on about prevalent muddy water in many of our ponds in our area.

IIRC, I believe a major point that has been over-looked is short length of growing season of northern ponds/vs longer seasons in Texas ponds.
It is not unusual to grow male OTS CNBG to 8-9 inches in a year’s time. These fast growing fish may be large but have immature characteristics, and subsequently difficult to ID sex.

M/F selection at this stage is not important to me because the males soon begin to get broader and thicker and exhibit male characteristics. At this time I cull the females that do not meet my criteria for pure Florida CNBG characteristics.

Mrs G’s pale coloration CNBG was photographed at pond side and not put in live well for later photgraph - that was a one year old fish about 8+ inches long would be my best guess.

Tony, thanks for keeping this thread alive. IMO it is important for folks that are selecting brood stock for their OTS CNBG grow out ponds. Al is doing a good job on selection of OTS CNBG for his brood stock using Overton’s criteria.

Cheers,
George

Ahh...George, I think you've nailed it. Where I've screwed up may be in equating larger size (growth) with maturity. Up here that's usually how it works. Matter-of-fact, it's far more common to see the reverse scenario, whereby a BG is mature, but small in size. (stunted)

My tendency to rely on characteristics familiar to me may be far less effective when applied to a faster growing fish. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks!


Al, that fish is tremendous. No denying those male characteristics!

Thanks Tony. We probably do have faster initial growth down here, but the trade off to me, is the shorter lifespan. That's why properly aging my larger CNBG is so important to me. Is there still potential growth in a fish like I posted, or is he a senior and close to decline? I've got something in mind that may make scale aging identification easier, but I haven't tried it yet. DD1 got me off on another hobby, so I'll blame him for me getting behind on other stuff.

Al, another point that you called to my attention earlier, is that Todd mentioned that his OTS did not get as long as Waldrop's pure Florida CNBG?
Another challenge when age dating?
Was your huge CNBG one of Todd's CNBG or one of Waldrop's?

G/

CNBG can live to 8 years in the south and regular BG longer up north. Al I think you are ok on the age for a few years. In areas where the change of seasons are not pronounced scale aging is much harder and less accurate.

Al, at the PB conference some SDSU students were aging fish. I wonder if they will be back? You can bring in scale samples of ones you want to keep alive, and otoliths of ones that you are unsure of and don't mind them going to the frypan.

George, he was one of Bob Waldrop's fish.

Eric and Scott, thanks for the info. I might just bring some scales to the conference. I would love to just watch the process itself from the SDSU students.