I would like to call a meeting of RASers anonymous.

Hi my name is cray and I like to RAS. It all started innocent enough with a 10 gallon fish tank. But soon I found myself eyeing those 800 gallon stock tanks in the local tractor supply. I told myself I would just get a few feed trained bass and see how they did. But soon I found myself buying a 20000 gal pool. My wife tried to step in, but I told her I would be fine with this I was not going to get sucked in any more.( and she believed me) it didn't take long before I was drooling over a 1200 watt viper uv filter, and she found 30000 bio balls charged to her credit card. Now 160,000 gal in and I get the giggles when the new fluidized beed filter gets dropped off by ups. My wife says I am addicted but I'm not I can stop any time I want!!! I just don't want to stop.

Any one else feel the same way?

I do but I prefer to build all my own components. 5 tanks now and an aquaponics raft tank system with a combination of tilapia and bluegills going up any day now outside. Been waiting for temps to go up. Going to put together a yamabuki airlift for the aquaponics system. I'm really excited to see how many watts I can reduce by not using a water pump and possibly using an rbc vs an mbbr.

How about some pictures? I'd love to see your system.

A PHD friend that raises hybrid striped bass for the gourmet market in Chicago warned me it can become an expensive hobby!

I will try to take a few pics tomorrow.

Here is the object of my obsession.

Yeah Cray I'd say you have it bad!

Can you explain what we're seeing pictures three and four?

How does your mechanical and biological filtration work?

Are you still raising bass or are you doing other species?

Pic 3 is a DIY solar heater. It is 8000 feet of black irrigation pipe. I use it to heat the pools in the winter. It has the ability to raise the temp 20 degrees on a sunny day. I also use it to cool the water in the summer I run it at night with a sprinkler the evaporation helps speed cooling.

Pic 4 is my mechanical room on the left is four 3/4 hp three phase pumps three are running continually recirculating the water. One is dedicated to the solar heater. Over the pumps are the phase monitors for the pumps. On the back wall is the transfer switch for generator and automatic disconnect. On the right you see the airiator blower and emergency backup.

As far as how the system works. The water is picked up by the pumps and sent through a uv filter. From there it goes into the protein skimmer that acts as a gas exchanger also. Inside the skimmer is 10 gallons of bio balls that also do some bio filtration from there the water enters the pool. It exits the pool by way of the overflow, and is gravity fed back to a settling tank then through mattela filter pads then through 30,000 bio balls that are airated. From there the cycle starts over. The wate is turned over four times a day. I know that is not a lot but my fish load is not that high.

Amazing

HOLY SMOKES!!!!!!!!!!

You got me scared now. I have been thinking about messing with this stuff a little bit, but geesh, if this is where it leads............

What do you currently raise? (besides a lot of eyebrows!)

Would a heat system like that also help out in northern climates?

I am raising LMB I started two years ago when I fist heard about pellet trained bass. Like I said I just got a cow trough and 300 bass. When I got them to 8 inches in 6 months I was hooked. I am trying to see what I can get them to in three years. My plan is to sell them to local plantations at 5+ pounds. My two year olds are currently 3+ pound on average.

And yes that solar heater would work for you but it would work better if you had it enclosed under clear plastic that would trap the heat and amplify it's effects.

And that is why I've decided to not get an aquarium.

Do you have arteasian wells on the property or ground water wells? DO you pump additional "clean" water into the system to help with evaporation and water changes?

I have seen HSB farms here in FL that have canopy/shade over the tanks to help keep the fish/water cooler during the summer. Im not sure if LMB migh benefit from this but just an idea.

You could look into Redfish, HSB, lots of other species could be pellet trained . Although Your idea of getting Large LMB to offer could be a real niche market.

I'd would love to check out your set up one day...

I have a deep well that I use for topping off and partial water changes.

Any pics of the fish?

I will be sampling the fish next week and will post a few pics. This is from last year. 10 months old

Very nice plump bass for only 10 months old. Be proud.

Florida or northern?

F1 but I did get 200 florida strain last year to compair the growth rate.

I am playing with stocking densities now to find the best ratio.

Wow, that really is a nice fat fish. That thing looks the perfect size for the food market. You could market them simply as Black Bass.
wounder what they would bring per pound? I could see NY restuarants having Black Bass on the menue.....

Nice Fish!

Yeesh! And I thought I had too many obsessive hobbies.

You should be able to charge a premium price for them. After my father-in-law retired, he worked for some people in Mt. Kisco, NY who organically raised most of the food for their restaraunt. They sold RAS-raised tilapia for out-of-site prices.

Our WV Extension Service did an experiment to see what the market would bring for very fresh trout and hybrid striped bass. "In the round" (head on) -- they sold out every week. I believe that when they stopped the experiment they were at $7 a pound. One of the things they found was that selling the whole fish was more profitable than selling filets, plus it was a lot less labor.

Anyway, great postings.

Ken

I find get a better feeding response at .25 to .50 pounds per gallon with the species I raise. But with my experience with largemouth bass in cages I got aggressive pellet feeding at low densities. Do you find that in your tanks?

Anymore I crowd the fingerling bluegill, yellow perch and tilapia in a small 100 gallon cone bottom circular tank that is self cleaning with an external standpipe connected to a center drain. The inflow is directed to the outside of the tank to create centripedal flow. Then when they get larger they go into a larger tank that still has a center drain and external standpipe but no cone bottom. The size of the fish and their density helps solids move to the center drain.

Unlike a Cornell drain the center drain flow is static. I have a gate valve I pull twice a day to clear solids.

The cone bottom tank is an advantage in tanks with smaller fish where you can't produce a higher centripedal flow.

Cray,

What do you think of the matala for mechanical filtration? I've considered using a series of different size mesh for the future in my aquaponics set up followed by a horizontal mbbr in lieu of my clarifier tank in a barrel with a siphon and my mbbr in a barrel. Both work very well (water stays gin clear) but the latter would allow me to decrease my watt signature even further with my airlift due to less lift needed.

Are you aware the Dutch are moving water at 66 gpm on only 10 watts of electricity with the use of an airlift in their high end koi ponds?

The matala is good but it does not have a mesh small enough for me and will need another smaller mesh to satisfy.

Are you using the smallest mesh size now?

Yes and I am still getting a thick silt passing through to bio ball tank. I may be overestimating what this should remove. I plan on adding a DIY 100 micron sieve before the settling tank to help out. My biggest problem is that I did not put in bottom drains. But when I drain and clean after the third year I will be putting them in.

How high are they able to lift that much water with air?

What an awesome setup Cray!!!... Now don't let your soon to be ex-wife sell it for what you told her you bought it for (I know, old joke) .

Special people with patience and understanding can see through the forest (sp). Nice job and post.... Great pics!

The Dutch have their ponds set up in ground so essentially there is virtually no lifting needed and the air is mostly used for moving water.

I'll post my aquaponics airlift set up when I get it going in about a week. My airlift will push up water and air to the optimum height of 1.7 metres before dropping unto the raft tank. Lift needed will be almost nil once out of the top of the airlift. The horizontal pipe will be connected to the bottom of mbbr tank to the vertical airlift right next to the raft tank, and will be external.

Is your flow perhaps too fast forcing sediment through? If so perhaps you can compensate by adding more matting?

I find if you are using filter media up flow filtration works best. My filter media consists of garden fence mesh crammed into a barrel. Water flows to the bottom of media via a siphon tube. As water is pulled off the top of the media via a small mag drive pump, water comes into the bottom of the drum via gravity displacement through the siphon. The sediment gets trapped in the media.

Cecil,

I look forward to your air lift design. I used the ben and glenn design in my indoor setup. I get good results lifting 6-12" using 35 watts. You can see the flow i achieve in one of the youtube videos in my feed train crappie thread. It keeps my ~600 gallon system well circulated, but i cant lift 1.7 meters. When the lift gets to about 2' it starts gurgling and is effectively no flow.


brian

Brian,

Mine won't be lifting 1.7 meters. That is the height of the tube for optimum lift but the water will automatically be that high due to the container mbbr it's coming from being that height or nearly that height.

Ahh. I can see how one could get really great results using air to pull water through a filter that is enclosed and below the tank water level.

The challenge with aquaponics is that you have to move water through open topped grow bed which usually causes some amount of head height. For you to have close to zero lift i guess you are doing constant flooded grow beds or rafts? I figure that could be an extremely efficient design for commercial system(s)

Is that container that high? 5'-6"? Maybe I'm thinking of the deer netting container.....

Raft tank. Wouldn't even consider media flood and drain or nft. Too many advantages for raft and disadvantages to media based IMHO. Media based is pushed because it's a simplier concept for beginners to grasp. I believe an aquaponics system should be treated foremost as an aquaculture system with plants as an add on. Too many beginners get in trouble with the fish because they jump in with no fish experience and no dedicated biofilter initially.

Of course I was not referring to you Brian as you are not a beginner by any means.

For me its raft because:

1.) No build up of sludge or anoxic hotspots in a raft tank as with media.

2.) Continuous flow. No flood and drain headaches.

3.) No clean up of media needed after harvest.

4.) The raft tank can be set up at chest level for easy planting and harvest.

5.)Water weighs less than stone.

7.) The raft tank is a safety net for the fish.

8.) The airlift will add oxygen to the raft tank and no diffusers will be needed.

9.) All large commercial aquaponics enterprises are raft. They won't even mess with media based.

The fish tank, clarifier tank, and mbbr are all elevated on cement blocks. The external vertical air lift pipe next to the raft tank will fill to the same level as the top of the mbbr tank that feeds it due to the water level equalizing effect. Then all that is required is the air injected at the base of the vertical airlift pipe under pressure to bring it up a few inches into the raft tank.

As you can see by the following photo the airlift does not have to be inside a tank:



Once the water is in the raft tank it goes down to the end, crosses over a divider, and comes back to the end it started on but on the other side. Due to the raft tank being slightly higher in elevation to the fish tank, the water drops back into the fish tank.

Ok I think I follow you on the air lift.

It isn't lifting the water 1.7 meters. The optimum flow is achieved when the air has to raise that distance. Correct?

there's tradeoffs to both styles of aquaponics and in some cases it's just personal preference. I understand why you would prefer the raft technique because it is so similar to traditional RAS and your fishkeeping background.

1.) There shouldnt be any sludge or buildup in the grow beds. people who have this problem have too many fish for their biofiltration.
2.) continuous flood of grow beds is fine as long as you maintain good DO levels in your water. Some people i trust say they have done both flood and drain vs constant flow side-by-side and tell me that the the constant flow outperformed flood and drain. I use ebb and flow because i feel it guarantees that anaerobic zones cannot form in my grow beds. My pump is always on though. I use a siphon technique to manage the flood and drain part.
3.) not sure what media you have to clean up after harvest. I pull up the plant with it's roots.. shake off the media and kind of smooth it back with my hand.
4.) water is heavy too but if you are talking about setup, it's a lot easier to fill a grow bed with water than 1.5 cy of rock, i will give you that.
5.) what do you mean by raft safety net?
6,). In 110 degree texas summers i dont think i can get away with no diffusers in the fish tank or in a raft grow bed. Your results may vary.
7.) It is true that commercial systems dont use gravel grow beds. But a backyard system has very different goals. I would also point out that contrary to your position "aquaponics system should be treated foremost as an aquaculture system with plants as an add on", the successful commercial aquaponics systems seem to focus on the plant production and the aquaculture portion is a very distant second. In some case like bright aggrotech they say they do not sell their fish at all. They say they will give them away to employees or customers that have shown interest.


Why i use gravel grow beds:
1) it's lower maintenance. Since i dont have a traditional ras type filter, my solids go into my grow bed and are broken down over time. i never have to clean the filter or back wash
2) None of the fish food is wasted. The solids begin breakdown in the grow beds with red wiggler worms... and then they mineralize in my grow bed as the micronutriets dissolve back into the water over time. The only mineral supplement i should ever have to add to my system for the plant health is some cheleated iron... and only rarely.
3) I can grow a wider variety of plants. You can do okra and probably corn in a raft system but you are probably going to have challenges when the wind blows. Having substrate for the roots to latch onto helps the plants stand upright and grow tall without any hassle. I could also do trees. I just planted a banana plant.
4) it's lower maintenance. i already said that but this point is in a different way. I can just buy a pack of seeds (or save them from last year)and throw them in my grow bed and expect them to grow. With a raft system you are going to have to buy your plants or grow them in a separate container or seed starter.
5) it's lower maintenance. oh this one again.. Typically the nitrification process that converts fish waste (ammonia) into nitrates (plant food) leaves negative electrons behind and over time will lower the water ph. From time to time someone must add something to bring the ph back up. My substrate is slightly alkaline and buffers my ph (albeit high...about 7.8), i never check my ph and i can tell you any minute of the week what my ph is. i never have to add chemicals to adjust it.

There's a soft spot in my heart for rafts too. Before all is said and done with my large outdoor system i will have a large raft section. The water will flow fish tank -> gravel beds -> raft.

The summary is i use gravel grow beds because "I am lazy".. i really enjoy the design and building process but when it comes to managing the aquaponics system. I want to throw seeds on the ground, feed fish and pick veggies. Eventually i will most likely automate the fish feeding part too.



brian

Bingo!

Good stuff Brian. I'll come back and address your points when I have time, and I'm not afraid of being proven wrong. Just taking a quick break and cup of coffee.

lol, you cant be proven wrong.

Not sure what you mean by that but I will be the first to admit I could be wrong at times. I actually learn the most when I find I am wrong about something or I make a mistake.

You make some very good points and I stand corrected on some of them but have a different opinion on others. You may not have issues with anoxic areas in your grow beds but a lot of less experienced people do.

i admit there are some plants I would have difficulty growing in a raft. Good point.

As far as a safety net regarding a raft tank it's in reference to the added volume of water adds a buffer for fish reducing stress and potential water quality issues.

Here's a link to a discussion I started asking why so many people lean toward media based systems. I believe Gary makes the point that many people would have lower failure rated if they learned the aquaculture part first.

http://aquaponicsnation.com/forums/topic/8751-why-the-bias-toward-media-based-aquaponics/

Btw another advantage of the raft tanks are more plants per surface area.

What about worms in your media?

?

As an advantage or what?

One of our guys and the boss went to a local College to wire up a new greenhouse and a few other small buildings.

They have an Aquaponics program there, except they call it pondaponics or something like that.

Anyway, they use composting worms in their media based grow beds. I guess you don't need filtration then. They also call their fish tanks ponds for an unclear reason, but from the explanation, they have a hatchery and feed the young uns to the adult fish, like in a pond with a predator/prey relationship. It's supposed to be 100% self sustaining.

I wish I stopped by while the guy's were wiring the rig up. I'll see if I can find out more info.

Here's something about the worms:
http://theaquaponicsource.com/2011/10/10/aquaponics-and-the-wonderful-worm/

I'm skeptical of some of those school systems. Some are so terrible it's a good thing they are using a forgiving species like tilapa. I haven't seen it but I was told a system FFA was pushing was terrible too.

Some people do it this way, some that.

So I have done some research on aquaponics and I'm not real interested in the growing veggies to sell but I like the idea of taking nutrience out of the water.

My question to the experts is what plant woul be the best at taking up nutrience? It does not have to be edible.

never mind

Some plants not only take up the usual nitrates but ammonia as well, of which duckweed comes to mind. In fact some aquaponists are not only growing the duckweed to remove ammonia and nitrates but using the byproduct to feed their tilapia.

This may not be the best forum to ask about aquaponics. You could try aquaponics nation where yours truly is a mod.

Thank Cecil!