Looking for some advice.

signed up for a government reforestation program and providing I get approval soon I will be starting the land preperation latter part of this summer.
In preperation for the tree planting in the spring of "13" the forester i'm working with wants me to do a total kill on the grass and plant red clover to put nitrogen in the soil for the trees.
The property is 36 acres with 10 of it in pond. I plan on leaving a 20' or so buffer of high grass at the pond edge and maybe another on up the hill a little further.
My concern is the chemical I will be killing the grass with. Is there a better or worse chemical to use that wont effect the pond in a bad way. And any suggestions or other concerns would be greatly apprieciated. Thanks

We did something similar 4 years ago with the WHIP program. I forget, but I think it was 400 Norway Spruce and about 800 various shrubs. The deer decimated just about everything. Here, some 4 years later, the Norway Spruce have struggled through their uninvited prunings and I would guess that about 70% will make it. I'll guess that about 15 - 20% of the shrubs will pull through.
Out of the 3 foresters I interviewed before the planting, the most senior member of the group immediately asked me if I had systematically thinned and culled the deer population. When I said "no", he politely told me that was not interested in the job, explaining that he would not invest his time into a project destined for failure.

Creating a "Woods" on my property for deer hunting is a part of the reason I'm doing this tree planting and I will be creating some food plots to "Try" and keep the deer somewhat preoccupied.
I guess I should mention the planting calls for 12,000 trees and I looked at two similar plantings within 5 miles of where I am that this guy did 6 yrs ago and was very impressed.
That being said I do understand there are no sure things.
Just not wanting create problems with the pond too. Thanks for responding Brettski.

And Hey if a guys gotta do some major deer heard thinnig I'm in. Thanks

Wow, culling a herd around here would mean not needing to plant any clover. Plenty of nutrients in the piles of carcasses that would be required to thin the herd even a little.

I have struggled mightily with planting trees around here. Have to fence everything. I probably have over 60 fence rings I have made to at least nurse the trees taller than the deer can reach.

I invite hunters here to help, but they only want to shoot the large bucks. I am about to put a bounty on them.

Culling a herd is impossible.. If a forester asked me that he wouldn't of had to worry about getting the job lol..

Yea in just about every county in southern Indiana the bag limit on does is 8. Just can't get anyone to shoot em.

I'm going to be planting soybeans in the food plots, and I was told that I needed to figure out a way to keep the deer from eating them for the first few weeks. There are solar electric fence controllers on e-bay that supposedly work on up to 5 miles of fence for around $70.

R&R:

I'd be willing to come down and thin the herd - harvesting to your specifications. If you're interested, let me know. If you don't want the meat, and don't know of any needy families that would, shoot me your zip code and I'll search for a processor that works with "Hunters feeding the Hungry" or a similar program. I've got a lifetime license and don't have to buy tags.

I have used tree tubes with good results. Not as expensive or intrusive as large area fencing. Not effective for all species of trees and shrubs as those with low bushy growth tend not to work as well. I have used Protex Tree Tubes. The 48" or even better, the 60" tubes should be used. They also protect the tree from rodents and definitely increase the growth rate.

They also make a tape that has a scent that repels deer to keep deer out of food plot until it is established called PLOTSAVER. I have not personally used it, but a couple friends have with good results.

My dad, uncle, sister, and I have about 60 acres in Harrison County Indiana and after opening weekend we shoot anything that walks. We were out on atv's yesterday and saw at least 10 doe on the property again.

About 15 years ago I had my pond dug in the middle of a corn/soybean field. I ordered several thousand trees mostly from the county extension agency service over a 5 year period that were planted on 5 1/2 acres. My guess is for every five trees I planted, one lived. I mowed that whole area for a few years trying to take care of them. My tree surgeon neighbor brought me several very large truck loads of mulched tree twigs that I mulched with. But between the deer, accidentally running over them with the mower, natural dieing and accidental spraying for broad leaf weeds I did loose a lot. But it was worth it for what I have now, a park like wild life area. One suggestion I came across for keeping dear away was to buy woof urine and put it on tampax tied to trees. One thing I did try was to drive in metal fence posts and tie a black trash bags to them leaving a head like bulge at the top and the rest just looked like a mans cape blowing around. It did look real. I did fertilizer my trees with triple 12 field fertilizer. As the trees got some size to them deer would still strip and eat the bark. I took duck tape and wrapped the striped bark back against the tree and saved a good many big trees this way. When they get really big they don't bother the trees. If you want black walnut trees I took around a 100 walnuts and when the ground was soggy wet I stomped them into the ground and now I have about a dozen nice trees from planting that easy way.

I planted 1200 tree seedlings in 2010, 7000 in 2011, and another 1200 this spring. While I'm no expect, I have picked up a few things.

Assuming the area to be planted is now just fescue pasture, I would have a local farmer bale it for hay later this summer. 2nd choice would be to mow it early August. Then the first of October hit it with about 2 quarts/acre of glyphosate and a proper amount of AMS (water treatment). Properly done, that will leave you with dead thatch to plant into early next spring. It won't hurt the pond in the watershed. I had also added OUST XP to kill the grass and have a residual effect on weed germination, but not sure about its effect on the pond??

I too have too many deer, and thats a whole 'nother discussion. Having soybeans nearby as an sacrificial planting helps, as does Plantskyyd. If your areas being planted to tree are large blocks, I would put up an electric fence (two fences, one three foot inside the other with two strands, an outer fence with electric tape 18" off the ground)

AMS = Ammonium Sulphate, right?

Yes. Or they make a liquid "AMS substitute" that is easier to use.

Thanks All for the input. Kinda turned into more of a deer control subject than not doing anything to harm my fish. But thats OK if theres one thing I like talking as much or more than my ponds its deer hunting.

ALso the plantings this guy did in 2006 were very impressive. I couldnt believe the growth. And before and after pics. Next time I drive by there I'll take a picture and post it.

Esshup , Man I love that liftime liscence, Best money I ever spent. Like a dummy I didnt get the fishing too. Wish I had. Shoot me a PM closer to season and we'll plan a hunt. There are a couple of processers that work with the hunters for the hungry around here.

Being as Im doing 12,000 trees the tubes are most likeely not in the budget but I may try a few just for comparison sake. The way this program works the state also pays for weed control and pruning the following 2 years. And they will replant a portion for drought...etc...

Thanks again guys.

R&R:

Will do. I don't mind working if you need something done around there or a hand with something too.

Esshup,
Be careful what you offer I may be scrambling to build a pole barn/garage to live in half this summer. Someone wants to buy my house even though were not really ready I cant pass this up. Maybe I'll finally start a post under the "Property Projects" section. Do You archery hunt?

I used to, but I'm so out of practice I use the horizontal bows during late season. I shot my first whitetail with a laminated recurve, cedar arrow and Bear broadhead a while ago. I still use the vertical bows to bowfish. That's easier than deer hunting! During gun season I usually use my muzzleloader. I only drag out the slug gun if I know the shots will be at a running deer, or if I go to one of the park hunts. I need to play with the ML this year before season. I screwed on a new tube late last year and never really got it dialed in. As Todd can attest, the old tube would shoot, but the new tube will give me an extra 100 yds or so of range if needed. I should be pushing the 195g .40 cal Barnes bullet somewhere around 2800 fps or so at the muzzle.

I did some "Redneck" ballistics testing on several muzzleloader brands and styles of bullets and far and away the barnes out performed them all. The expansion on them and weight retention is awesome. Thats all I use now.

Back to the original question. Is "Roundup" my best option in this case or equal or something else completely.

Read back through this post and I should have said he wants me to plant the red clover "This" fall.
And "Red" what is this stuff known as to the layman, where can I get it, cost? Etc................................

Do you have a bad weed problem?

"Roundup" (glyphosate) will kill anything green. Poast will specifically target grass, but leave broadleaf plants alone.

Cornerstone, etc. are generic glyphosates, and cheaper than "roundup" brand. Still 41% too.

jludwig,
Not too bad on the weeds it's mostly fescue

And thanks again esshup.

It depends if you like fescue or not. Personally I am not a fan. But others think it goes nice.

Fescue - or any other grass - is not compatible with a tree seedling planting. You'll have to kill it with glyphosate. Not sure I agree with planting clover, but you can broadcast the red clover seed right after spraying the fescue.

IIRC, the "red" clover means that the blossoms are reddish in color. Call any local seed dealer that sells corn/beans to farmers and I'll bet they can order some for you. I bought a 50# bag of Dutch White Clover, and it was $162.50 but I had to run 60 miles one way to pick it up.

Red clover is a biannual or shot lived perennial clover and is usually planted in the spring but can be fall planted... Crimson clover is winter annual, planted in the fall and matures by late spring. I would bet, if the forester wants you to make a fall planting for soil building purposes, it is crimson clover you want, not red clover.

I buy a lot of my food plot seeds here: crimson clover

Crimson clover tolerates poor soil conditions and is very hardy! Plus it's cheap compared to most other clovers. If the soil is lowland and is usually a bit on the wet side, I'd plant alsike clover.

When I planted my trees I mowed for a few years until they got a good start. One heck of a job mowing around 5 1/2 acres trees. Then the time finally come when I wanted to quit mowing but keep weeds down. My farmer said to plant alsike clover, I did but that didn't begin to stop the weeds. Then I planted Bison grass and that helped but I ended up spot spraying every year, usually three times a year. I have started spraying already this year. Canadian thistles are a pest but a spraying usually knocks them down for the year but the hard one to control for me is wild carrots. I use Amine 400 2,4-D weed killer that doesn't hurt the grasses. It is cheap at $18 a gal. at the farm stores. I fill a Mott’s applesauce bottle 1/2 full for 15 gallons of water.

This is what my bison grass looks like this morning. This area hasn't been spot sprayed and so far the weeds are being kept down by the grass, but some will show up later. 15 years ago this was part of a soybean/corn field

Never heard of bison grass

Never heard of Bison grass either.

I'll double check with the forester on the red clover. All I remember is him saying to get rid of the fescue and new tree's like a lot of nirogen so plant red clover. Thanks for all the input guys.

When I bought Bison grass years ago it was a cross between Buffalo grass and something else, I don't remember what now. A few months ago when I mentioned it, I did a search on the web and couldn't find it. It is a clump grass and over time it filled in even where it wasn't planted that well.