I have been reading the archives about Golden Shiners and it has been mentioned several times that GSH populations diminish over a period of time but I didn’t understand exactly why. Is it LMB eating so many or are there other reasons? If it is mainly LMB reducing the GSH population then maybe I should start taking out some LMB now about 6” long that survived my winter kill. I put in 1 gal. of GSH this spring that I think is about 7 lb, in my 1 acre pond and would like to add twice that much next spring. I also introduced 600 FH and 100 BG this spring. But I really want a big population of GSH for FA control.

Generally it's been my experience that LMB over time will eventually extirpate GSH from most ponds in 6-8 years after they are introduced and you will see substantial declines within 2-3 years. Getting them established in ponds with LMB is darn near impossible, especially those without extensive shallow areas(few smaller ponds have these) and aquatic vegetation, few pond owners what large amounts of it.

GSH will eat FA, however unless they were in extremely crowded conditions which is unlikely in the presence of LMB, I doubt they will do much to control FA. One of my favorite baits for CC in ponds with GSH are GSH. I've cut open a lot of GSH in the 4"-8" range to use as cut bait and rarely do I find FA in their stomachs. Now in forage ponds where there are piles of GSH, I will see them feeding on FA.

There are a few species of Cyprinid that FA makes up a reasonable % in their diet. The brassy minnow (Hybognathus hankinsoni)and the central stoneroller (Campostoma anomalum) are the two big ones that come to mind. Unfortunately, neither would be suitable for your pond.

Thanks for your answer. It looks like with my bass predators that I probably can’t completely eliminate, I would be back to having FA in a few years. Very frustrating. The tadpoles did an excellent job of FA control but that only lasted till mid June when they became frogs and there is no guarantee I will have that high population next spring. So the dilemma is how to control FA the second half of the year and not use the three fish types that used to work for me but can’t be used in my clear pond concept. I will have more plants next year that should help but as much as I like plants that might be too much even for me. The pleasent thing about the pond after the fish kill is I have lots of minnows and some bluegills and bass to look at and feed from my deck.

Tilapia during summer if you can use them would help.

Apparently there are so many "algae eaters" in North America, I can't understand why anyone has FA.

Virtually any species of fish can have FA, or anything else for that matter, in it's digestive tract. Pepsin breaks down the proteins to extract nutrition and most FA require an acid PH around 1.4 for the pepsin to break the "strong" FA protein barrier. For most fish species, a stomach Ph that low would dissolve the host fish species itself. It is far more likely FA ingested is by accident rather than intent and fish are eating other organisms growing in or on the FA instead. FA control by GSH is much more likely to be obtained in very dense stockings by the disruption of the the FA growth cycle rather than by any actual consumption.

Maybe it is semantics to some as to what constitutes a fish being called an "algae eater" and if so, I apologize for seemingly being overly sensitive to some being misled in these rather "creative" theories being presented here.

I have yet to see a single result mentioned that was even remotely acheived through FA atually being consumed in any quantity that would have achieved said results.

It is great to think outside the box here on the forum. We just can't forget, the "box" needs to be clearly understood also, ESPECIALLY if you like going outside it!

One reason GSH tend to disappear from LMB ponds is older GSH develop an ovarian parasite (protozoan) that limits reproduction esp in older GSH. Many, most, or all young GSH become forage items leaving behind mostly the largest old adult GSH that tend to be infertile or of low reproductive potential. Thus the downward spiral trend of the GSH population unless quite a few YOY GSH survive each year.

Here is the second year of my pond without algae. No GC yet but LMB, BG, and the algae eaters are in and work as Zetts said they would, 6 Israeli Carp, 20 KOI & 100 CC & 12 albino CC. Notice the size of the small Australian Pines, use them as a reference, I had a nursery put in at this size. There is no FA in this picture.


This is my pond around 10 year old. Note the Australian Pine size, again as a reference for age of the pond. There is no FA. The Israeli Carp, KOI & CC are quite big now as are the GC that were added around year 5.


This picture is after my FA eaters died after 15 years from the winter kill, and to my surprise the huge number of tadpoles were eating FA and keeping the pond clear of FA. The bottom picture shows no FA until the third week of June when they turned into frogs. Doing this time of no FA we had quite hot weather including three strait days of above 90 degree weather. Should have been great FA growing weather. The ponds around my area at this time were having FA problems. The upper picture of the bottom two is FA that developed after the three week. This is the first time I ever had more then a trace of FA in 15 years. The only difference is the pond is without my combination of fish. This is a single result that actually happened just as Zetts said, I tried it, and I think my pictures show the results. I probably have more pictures if I go back through my old photos before I had a digital camera.
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The clear pond concept has it’s problems. FA is the obvious one, but without the 18 GC the cattails are out of control also. But the Wood Ducks love it and I have 6 staying all summer. So that's a plus. Just where I am going with all this I don't know yet.

Thanks for that infor Bill. So it would seem if I worked to keep my bigger bass in very low numbers and give the young GSH a chance to stay in high numbers, the possibility of controlling FA would most likely increase.

This is a bit off topic but... I could be wrong here, but those look like Austrian pines(Pinus nigra) to me. Austrian pines are commonly planted in many areas to include the Midwest, particularly used as wind breaks. They are native to much of Europe, hence their common name.

Australian pines(Casuarina equisetifolia) are a tropical species of tree native to most of southeast Asia, many Pacific islands and northern Australia hence its common name. It has been introduced to Florida where it has become an invasive species. My aunt and uncle in Florida fight a never ending battle to control them!

Its not the bigger bass that cause GSH recruitment problems it is the small bass 3"-12" that are almost always more abundant compared to the bigger older bass. Smaller, abundant bass and smaller predators eat lots of 1"-4" GSH thus healily impacting the GSH recruitment. Johns pond appears to have adequate shoreline habitat and cover which should under a normal fishery should allow GSH recruitment, but probably not enough recruitment to keep FA under control. If you want good FA control and your theory holds, considder renovating the pond and restock primarily for the goal of high GSH numbers - possibly mainly a GSH pond.

Again, the reson for a "lack of FA" in the older pond pics was NOT from any meaningful ingestion of FA as it is not something those species can digest. The lack of FA was due to the very turbid (muddy) water conditions created by the bottom rooting fish. The RESULT was a reduction in FA. The REASON was a lack of light penetration allowing FA growth and not an "algae eater".

It would be interesting to hear from those with primarily or only GSH in a forage pond to see if FA is ever a problem. IMO it would take an awful lot of GSH to control a healthy bloom of FA.

Rainman my pond was turbid somewhat but I believe the visibility was probably 2 feet, but I didn't measure it doing the 15 years of being FA free. I, the kids & grandkids were feeding the fish from the deck and we could see the fish, but they were big fish and easy to see. There were minnows and bluegill also being fed and seen. I fed the fish every day except when they stopped feeding when the cold water arrived. If you want to believe the FA was only accidentally eaten that's fine but the bottom line is there was only trace FA for all those years. The pond was total free hands off maintenance. I never sprayed, I never pulled or cut anything and it always looked nice. My pond friends also didn’t believe. We had a beer fest on the deck so they could observe and ask questions. Only now is the pond out of control. Cattails, spatterdock. But I may like a lot of cattails.

Here is a short video showing my Corkscrew ell grass. It has spread and grown better then I expected. The water clarity is 3 foot because of the tannin. Earlier in the year it had been clear to 6'4".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BTIKiXk2Yc

I can post pictures of a couple of ponds that only have BG, RES, YP, GSF in them and they are FA free also. NO Koi, carp, etc. Visibility is around 36".

Am I saying that those fish are algae eaters because I don't see any FA in the pond? Not in this lifetime. The reason is because they nutrient load is very light, and the photoplankton is utilizing enough of the nutients that are produced by the fish to keep FA from getting a foothold. There are virtually no plants in these ponds either.

There are a number of contributing factors to not having FA in a pond, not just critters eating it.

John - I watched your videos - do you have theories/thoughts as to why the 1 shallow pond in the “ponds” video has been FA free for 10 years? Also, at what depth(s) did you plant your eel grass (Vallisneria??)? Not to be controversial but we had a couple of koi on a 2nd story balcony “mini-pond” that definitely ate FA as well as duckweed (a “portion” lasted about a day and a half) until rocky raccoon scaled the side of the house… I don't know if their artificial environment played a role.

I have GSH, FHM, YP and WE in my 3 year old pond. The GSH were given a year head start on the rest and now I cannot throw a #8 or #10 hook in the water without it immediately being grabbed by one. Because of this, I have no idea if any of the 1000 6-8" YP that I put in last year are still alive, I have never been able to keep a baited hook in long enough.

I know I have a very healthy supply of GSH, however they were not able to control an FA bloom I had early this summer. I had to resort to a chemical control.

I planted the corkscrew ell grass in 2 to 3 feet of water. Beside planting the 4 plants below my deck I planted 1 plant every 4 steps, or about 8 feet. I looked up my records and I planted about May 7th. It seemed like it took a month before I begin to see result. But now the corkscrews have exploded. My pond had dropped about 2 feet from evaporation so yesterday I went around my pond trans planting plants that were about to go dry. I got around 50 corkscrew plants and never made a dent in the population. I was wading just a few minutes ago trying to count the population from just one plant and I roughly counted 30 from just one plant. The plants don't seem to have any rime or reason in the way they spread. Some will grow in a big cluster and other will spread in a long row of 4 or 5 feet. This was way more then I expected from a plant. I figure we have 4 to 6 weeks of growing season left so the corkscrew should have a heck of a start for next year, if they survive the winter. The plant is listed as an Asian plant so I guess you could call it an invasive non native plant but it is pretty, about 1 to 1/2 feet in length and stays below the water surface.
I had bad FA shading for about a month and I was afraid that would kill the corkscrews but they were nice and green when the FA left the surface. This is where I got mine and a picture of the condition when they arrived.

I used to think the FA free mystery pond was caused my the many Black Ramshorn snails 10 years ago but now there are hardly any. The pond now is turbid partly because they have dug and expanded the pond in the far end, but 10 years ago I waded in the pond and was able to see and pick up hundreds of snail. I put them in my pond and they died out for some reason. I was going to get permission to put a fish trap in the pond and see what I come up with but I haven't done that. Yet, anyway. 10 year ago the pond was isolated and hard to get to, now they have a gun shooting station by it and you can drive right up to it.

http://www.aquariumplants.com/product_p/va069.htm

Thank you for the info - you have been extremely helpful. I'm trying to gather as much "real world" experience with its use (eel grass)- will you update on winter survivability next year? I have looked at the same vendor that you used due to their pricing and am relieved that their plants look so good. I have purchased plants from other more expensive vendors in the past and many of those plants did not look nearly as good.

The mystery pond is interesting. Will you keep us updated?

Again, thanks for posting the videos. They have given me a lot to chew on... Is it a sin to covet your neighbor's canoe?? Seriously, though, beautiful wood work.

Full Circle I will post about the plants at the end of this season and what happens next year to them.

Thanks for the boats comment. They are just an extention of loving water.

Here is a little extra on the Corkscrew plants. I think maybe I need to get a life, but I'm retired so what the heck.
The picture is of one plant that has spread about 4 feet wide. I took 55 flags and put everywhere I saw a new plant, and I run out of flags. There were still two areas of new plants that I have circled that I could also have flaged had I more flags.

not to stir up the FA controversy but... perhaps the differing opinions in regard to the consumption in FA are due to the differences in fish anatomy. As per the FAO (Food and Agriculture Organization), there are 4 different gut configurations: a straight stomach with an enlarged lumen (for example, the Esox family), a U-shaped stomach with an enlarged lumen, a Y-shaped stomach with a cecum formed by the “stem”of the Y, and those without a stomach in which the midgut attaches directly to the esophagus (cyprinids – includes both carp and golden shiners). Note that in some families, only one specific genus will lack a stomach. Stomachless fish (which do not produce pepsin) tend to be herbivores or omnivores, while the first 3 classifications (those with true stomachs) are typically carnivores which rely on peptic digestion.

Carp and other Cyprinids (GSH, Blennies, etc.) do not have a stomach and do not produce pepsin (they rely on trypsin). They digest their food by grinding the plant material (interdigital teeth) before swallowing, exposing more surface area to the digestive enzymes. Large quantities of plant material are required as it is believed that only 5-15% of the material is digestible – the rest (plant fiber) passing through as fecal material. Unlike fish with stomachs, pepsin is not produced, but rather trypsin is the main protease excreted. Lipolytic activity has been observed in carp and there are ongoing studies into carbohydrases and collagenase. Interestingly, amylase (the enzyme which breaks down starch) has been found in both goldfish and bluegill but not LMB. The presence of other enzymes have been postulated but not yet isolated. To quote FAO: “Much remains to be learned about intestinal digestion in fish”. Some interesting reading which verifies the above info:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/X5738E/x5738e02.htm#6.3%20common%20carp%20%28cyprinus%20carpio%29

John’s post and others’ observations and anecdotal evidence are what I find great about this forum. Rather than dismissing their (and my own) observations out of hand, it led me to do further research…. confirming that cyprinids including GSH do have the capability to digest FA.

John - You have caused me to put Val at the top of my list. We purchased 200 acres in Central Texas a couple of years ago and are finally getting around to laying out the pond. I appreciate your patience in responding to all of my questions- I am one of those that over analyzes/engineers, and I want to be sure that we have enough area (with appropriate depth) for plants (among 1000 other things) before we dig. If you had to do it again, would you still plant at 8 foot centers? Have you ever tried any of the Sagittaria family? I am looking forward to see how they continue to grow and how well they’ll over-winter.

There is nothing “just” about your boats – it’s apparent that a lot of time and work went into them – nice detail work.

It sounds like you already have a life. I am busier now that I am retired than I was when I had a “real” job. I can’t say that I relate to those that find retirement boring…

FullCircleTex, I'm not dismissing what John nis saying, and I find the information that you posted very interesting. I'm just trying to point out that in normal ponds, if someone new reads the posts about the different species of carp and GSH eating FA, they might think that they are a magic bullet for their FA problem, then be upset with the information on the forum if it doesn't work to their expectations.

Esshup - I fully understand your point – I would not want anyone misled, either. What I was responding to was a different post that implied that all fish excrete pepsin in the digestive process and a later statement that these species cannot digest FA. I find John’s observations regarding his home pond and the mystery pond featured in his video interesting and I am trying to grasp all of the factors that may be contributing to the FA-free state. As I am one of those who “thinks outside the box”, I tend not to take many statements as fact until researching them ad nauseum and thought I would throw this bit of info out regarding Cyprinids and trypsin (the FAO seems like a solid resource to me). If anyone has read studies that contradict the FAO, I would appreciate the link as I am just here to learn…..By the way, all of the research I found supports your post entirely. ‘Hope I have not stirred the pot so to speak.

I think the same could be said for the Naysayers who make definite statements that certain species such as GSH absolutely won't make any impact on FA.
In my opinion there aren't too many absolutes when it comes to ponds.

I think Bill Cody coined the term "It All Depends" when talking about ponds, and I think that is truer than many people believe.

Full Circle, I had to look up Sasrittaria and I see there are more then one family of them. If this is one you are thinking of, it seems to be on the endangered list. But in a protected pond they might be OK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittaria_secundifolia

Just from my experience with the Corkscrew so far I wouldn't plant any closer then 8 feet apart since it looks like they are great spreader and should be even better next year. I didn't have enough plants to go all the way around my pond but with the roughly 50 plants the were about to go dry & I just transplanted I was able to mostly circle the pond.

The reason I got interested in the Corkscrew is a couple of guys on the forum thought it was the best of water plants. Perhaps they or anyone that has experience with this plant (Vallisneria, Corkscrew (Vallisneria americana var. biwaensis) could describe their experiences. So far this plant seems to good to be true.

Retirement is as much or more fun then when I was a kid.

John- I was looking at the more common forms of Sag (I think the forum is calling it arrowhead) but am interested in the submerged types (possibly one of the subulatas) which have a more grass-like form. As I am in the process of moving from a zone 10 environ (outside of Malibu, Ca) to central Texas (zone 7B), I want to stay with more hardy plants until I get a better feel for the change. Thanks for all of your help – I look forward to your updates.

John- BTW, funny thing about retirement….When I was a kid, school was something I had to attend. Now, I can’t seem to learn enough…

I have not had quite the intense first season growth you are experiencing in your pond. In my experience, the first year growth was rather slow. It was the second year growth improved. It was then that the corkscrew eel grass took off and spread. It hasn't spread nearly as much as 8'. 3-4' has been my experience.

I would never discount someones observations or theories...When they are not supported by well proved fact though, it also needs to be pointed out to avoid and help prevent others from having unexpected, unwanted or unintended results. In this particular instance (this and prior related threads), some "conclusions" and "theories have run counter to many well established, provable and known facts in some areas. We would never want to quell interesting new thoughts and possibilities...equally, if claims or conclusions are made, for any reason or by any person, that are clearly misleading, there must be clarification made and "warnings" added as to the voracity and likelihood of the claims/conclusions.

From all the research I have found, pepsin is the only enzyme that can break down "most" algae species protein barriers and then only in an "extremely" acidic enviornment....these conditions exist in very very few fish and not one mentioned outside of some tilapia species can produce those conditions.

Unfortunately there is a woeful lack in recent aquatic research and much of it is outdated and plain ole inaccurate. Many "studies now are compilations of earlier work that is not always accurate as well...Hopefully that trend is changing again.

I can "digest" sand....I can "eat" it too...what I can not do is live on it...that is the point I have tried to make...these fish, I could never consider "algae eaters"...my opinion...ymmv

CJBS2003 - How well did they overwinter for you? Is the growth spread out or do you have dense patches? How deep did you plant yours (water depth)? I hope that you don't mind that I am asking so many questions....

Thry seeemed to over winter fine. They're just slow to come back to life in spring. I planted them in 1-3' of water. Bill Cody has far more experience with them, maybe he'll weigh in.

I have some eelgrass from Bill Cody that has spent the last year in a plastic wash tub in the pond. I'll be pulling it out of the pond tomorrow and I'll see how it's doing. I need to remove it due to a fluridone treatment for milfoil. It'll reside in another BOW until it's safe for it to return.

Full Circle I am the same way. I can't get enough information. My problem is it doesn't stick so well anymore.

If I remember right the instruction that came with the Corkscrew Ell Grass said to plant it just to the crown or something like that. When I started planting I was barely able to keep my head above water at times,(the water was cold and I was in a wet suit) and so I was just stuffing the plants into the mud and I thought this isn't going to be good. But they don't seem to care. I planted in some sand where I once had a beach and in muck/mud and they grow well in both. In sand they aren't rooted as well and I have knocked some loose launching and beaching my boat. Once I had the plants planted I walked around the pond and some had floated up to the surface so I replanted them.

I would like to say also, that the area I had the 55 flags marking the individual plants that when you just walked by and looked at them you would think you were looking at 8 or 10 plants. But when you really got down close all the plants came into view. Many new plants were just up an inch or so.

Oh, do I relate to that! Worse yet, I have found that much I was taught as “fact” just 30 or 40 years ago is now myth. One of my sons is working on dual masters in math and physics and has pointed out a few of these myths (quantum, especially, is progressing so rapidly). The good thing is that it has forced me to remain flexible in my thinking and to continue to learn. I am not sure who uses the quote in regard to cement and minds on this forum, but it is one I appreciate and what I strive to avoid. Thank you for sharing your experiences – you’ve given me a great deal to consider. I apologize if I have hijacked your thread in any way.

Thank you all for sharing your experiences- I’ll be prepared for the variability in growth. Now about that Black Crappie…. (just joking!!)

Full circle, you are getting ready to build your pond & I wish I could start over again. I should have had mine in writing. It was built wrong. It was to be dozed out, the top soil put aside and the dirt blended into the field to create a natural runoff for water. We went on vacation and when we came back it was bermed so we couldn’t get the natural flowing water shed from the 12 acre field. So that is the reason I am having to replant some of the of the Corkscrew Ell grass. The pond usually drops about three feet doing the summer. I ditched the field and run the water in back of my pond then pumped it into my pond but that got to be a hassle so I stopped. So from my experience for pond builders dot the I’s a cross the T’s.

Full Circle, just one last thought, it's hard for me to wrap my mind around the “quantum cat in a box theory.”

John - Thank you for the warning - we’re putting off the actual construction until we can be there full time. It’s a shame that the contractor didn’t heed your wishes – the original design of your pond sounds strong. I wouldn’t have guessed that there were any regrets by the looks of your pond. If ours comes out even half as nice as yours, I’ll be very happy. I think your signature says it all- “Serenity Now”.

I am sure we will still end up with some “if only, would’ve, could’ve” but, hopefully, not too many. One of my major concerns is ensuring that our pond gets enough attention to detail as we are planning on building our permanent home simultaneously (just one of the reasons for all of the pre-planning - but the main reason is I am just that way). We may have to separate these 2 jobs calendar-wise so the contractors are not stepping on one another…but there is going to need to be some type of communication between the two. I’m thinking pond first, house second (there is another house on the property for the interim). I am much more comfortable with the house aspects as I’ve “been there, done that” and am aware of the pitfalls but the pond is a new one for me. I will probably formally introduce myself closer to build-time, and ask for the horror stories.

Oh, and wasn’t that Schrodinger a fun guy!

Pond first, house second is especially good if you need some extra fill dirt to raise the level of the house (i.e. for a basement).

The topsoil from the basin area of the pond could be spread around the house to increase the topsoil level if needed.

The house is being situated on a pre-existing “turtle shell” with the land sloping off and away on all sides. 300 feet from the front side of the proposed house, there is a steep hill where most of the watershed runs. When it rains, the water coming off the hill is naturally diverted around the house site and we’ll capture it in the proposed pond below. I’d post the topo but it isn’t as descriptive as when you walk the property (doesn’t really show the turtle-shell). When we were purchasing our property, our agent told us he had actually been there 30 or so years ago when the river (which is our lowest property boundary) breached and this site was like an island surrounded by shallow water (just a few inches). Given that the river is 800 feet from this point and 30’ below according to the topo, it must’ve been quite the rain (the 100-year storm?). So, long story short, we would like to use any dirt left over to “bump up” the site and to reinforce that water shed path. ‘Was thinking about doing some type of silt containment where the 2 slopes meet – any thoughts?

We are hoping to find topsoil. Most of the property sits on “cemented caliche” and clay but we do have a 25 acre pasture that sits adjacent to the pond site and immediately above the river with actual soil (from the river breaching??) and the occasional odd pocket of real soil so hopefully….

A smaller pond or 2 that will slow down the velocity of the moving water will allow the silt to fall out of suspension. Making the entrapment ponds in a shape that allows them to be easily cleaned out every few years will help. Don't forget to plan for the surrounding vegitation near those ponds to be severely disturbed when the ponds are cleaned out. Catmandoo has some very good ideas and plans for silt trap ponds.

Look in areas of the property that could have been low pockets when the river flooded. Those areas will fill up first with sediment. If the water was that high before, plan on it getting that high again....... If that water could get into the proposed pond, make sure it won't blow out the dam. Unfortunately, there won't be much you can do about unwanted fish species going into the pond if that happens, but you should be able to plan so the pond doesn't get blown out.

Full Circle if there is anything you want in you pond before it fills you want to plan ahead. In my case I had two dump trucks loads of sand for my beach, a dump truck of limestone gravel ready to spread in segments around the pond for bluegill to spawn on and a dump truck of softball size stone for fish to hide and mess around in. I had rocks, stones, brick and blocks ready to build several artificial reefs, and I had my 6x6 posts for my deck screen house ready to dig in. Once the water started to rise I still was almost in a panic to get things finish before they were under water. And when the pond is dug it's hard to tell just where the high water line is going to be so that has to be figured and marked so you can tell where everything goes.

Esshup- I found Catmandoo’s posts – thank you! Fortunately, the land lends itself well for at least one entrapment pond and there is 3½ acres available for a wet land zone. As this parcel abuts an area where the does keep their fawns, I’d like to make the wet land/meadow area deer friendly (more research ahead). I am feeling better about the pond placement as all of the other pieces seem to fit naturally.

Prior to the last owner who had the property for 2 years, the land was held by the same family for the past 120+ years. According to the older folk, that one flood event was unusual but, yes, all of our plans are based on it happening again. As the pasture is at the lowest point on the property and borders the river, it is the first to flood but, as the pond will be second in line, we will definitely look twice at the dam on that side. The image of the pond blowing out that you conjured up caused a great deal of conversation around here – thank you for the excellent reality check. We will be heeding John’s warning to dot our i’s and cross the t’s. Again, I appreciate all of your help and insights.

John- We have a generalized blueprint, if you will, and it just keeps on growing…lol. After reading your post, I decided that I had better add a beach. If I may ask, how much coverage did you get with 2 loads of sand? So far, we have spawning, nursery, and vegetative coverage areas for FHM, GSH, gams, grass/glass shrimp and CNBG/RES laid out, campgrounds for HSB, as well as various humps, swells, benches, ledges, and stumpy areas etc., for underwater entertainment. As I can’t foresee how the pond will evolve, I have also included habitat/structure for a couple of controversial fish. I figure that even if we don’t ever add them, the area will still be utilized by someone and, on the off chance that we do, we're prepared. We also will be using cinderblock from a decrepit milking shed that is slated for demolition for our reef areas but perhaps we should add the larger stone, too??

I’ll be planting a lot of Iris on the banks as a way to visually demarcate the “brood” areas. I think it will be easier to ask the kids when they come to visit not to fish by the areas with Iris rather than trying to describe to them what areas to avoid. Also, I am considering building a couple of floating islands and tethering them near the deeper structures for identification purposes but I may use rubber ducks temporarily if time becomes an issue.

Initially, I’d thought about a floating dock since it self-adjusts to the water level, but given my situation (degenerative neuro issue), we’ll be putting a permanent structure in. Are you happy with the 6x6’s? I still need to research this (dock structures) further. I haven’t fully defined our needs, yet, but Polaris access is required. Wish-list features include a screened gazebo and room for at least 12 people...

Thank you so much for your input - I appreciate all of the help that you have provided.

Cal the PB office and get the back issue that has info on building docks. There was at least one made that would support an ATV.......

I've got the plans in the works to build a floating dock for my pond. I bought all the hardware from here:
http://www.dockbuilders.com/

They will design one for you too if you want.

Thanks - I found and ordered the issue on line (Mar/Apr 09) - I think this makes the 24th back issue that I've ordered??. I'll keep the address to dock builders and contact when we are closer to that time. Again, many thanks!

If you don't subscribe, you should. It'd be cheaper in the long run!

Esshup - ‘Did that back in June – I just wish I had subscribed earlier. Also, I purchased “the book” and, after realizing that the amount of information available on the forum saved me from purchasing several dozen books, I made a donation so I think I am good to go so far…

Full Circle it sounds like you are very well prepared to build your pond. The 6x6 treated posts in my pond have held up well for the 15 years they have been in place. My deck/gazebo (12'x12'deck and 12'x12' gazebo) was 12'x 24' overall using 6x6/s spaced 6 feet apart and they were braced with 2"x10's forming a sort of triangle under and above water. The 6"x6" were dug in 4 feet deep with the bottom of the hole flared out and half a sack of dry concrete mix dropped in for footers and allowed to harden from ground moisture. The 6 bys were 10' long in the deeper water and 8' in the shallower area.

The beach was about 15 feet wide and even after spreading, the rain and wave action helps to spread it even more. It would still be a usable beach today if I wanted to use it as such.

Just some thoughts, I have been in TX a few times and I notices you seem to have plenty of Tree Swallows. They are a nice birds to have around a pond to keep down the bugs and to watch fly. If you ever decide to attract them I found this type of Bluebird house is really liked by them.

If you want Wood ducks you might want to plan on putting a post ahead of time in your pond before it fills. The water is better then on land for the ducks where animals can sometimes get to the young. I'm putting in one now but I'm using a steel fence post driven in the water, over which a 2 inch PVC post will slip over it with the duck house attached.

I’m also considering putting in a floating peer/dock and using used 55 gal plastic food grade drums that I can find in my area for $10 each.

John, good choice in dogs!

John- Thank you for describing your deck/gazebo setup (great visualization) and for the tip on the birdhouses. We need all of the help we can get in terms of bug control. I’ll start spreading Semaspore next year for the grasshoppers and establishing a flock of Guinea fowl for the ticks, but will add the birdhouses for another layer of control. I’ve always been an organic gardener and my goal is to get the bugs down to a more manageable/tolerable level. I also find “feathered friends” more aesthetic than a spray tank, too.

I hadn’t considered wood ducks. Depending on the map, it appears that I am either in a migratory path (just barely) or situated at a permanent resident/non-breeding resident/”uncertain status” junction. I’ll plan on putting in a few posts and see what happens...

BTW – your friend looks so happy!

Full Circle this is something you probably wouldn’t want but I have lots of frogs and I'm sure they also help with the bugs. When my fish died from the winter kill the tadpoles came on really strong. There were so many that the pond looked like it was raining. They would dive down and come to the top of the water making what looked like rain. I had no FA doing this time until the middle of June when they turned into frogs. I watched them closely and any algae that tried to form on the deck posts, deck latter and underwater structures were covered with tadpoles eating the faint algae I could see. The stems of my lilies that tried to form algae had tadpoles on them also.

Esshup Dolly was just a little bundle of fur that we heard at our back door in the snow one night in January. She is a great walking dog and insists we walk every couple of hours. That’s good for me since I need it for my health. What I hate is she catches 3 or 4 frogs a day. Even at night. But for every one she catches it seem there is always one to replace it.

John- I don’t mind frogs at all. In fact, I assume that they will naturalize in/near the pond as we have a year-round “puddle” (30x50?? in this drought) 600 feet downstream from the pond site that has 10’s of 1000’s of tadpoles in the spring. In the early summer, the ground appears to shimmer and, if you look real close, there are wall-to-wall “mini-frogs” (less than ½”). Initially, I was concerned about the puddle becoming a mosquito haven but there aren’t any larvae present. By our observations for the past 2 years, there aren’t any fish (but the water gets deep in an area that is not easily accessible), no water/bog plants, the dragonflies are thick, and no FA. This puddle appears to be a main watering hole for the local wildlife – perhaps because it is centered in a thick grove of trees and most of the stock tanks and ponds in our area are out in the open. The back edge of our pond will abut the same tree line but as I said, about 600 feet “upstream”. We will leave all of the trees that we can so the wildlife will have another option.
BTW - Dolly looks as if she is in heaven!

Full Circle, ponds are hard to figure out for me. I used to have frogs and tadpoles but not the numbers I had this year. Probably because I had big fish of all kinds that probably eat them in my old pond. So this is a new kind of pond taking place from what I used to have. Good or bad I don't know. I'm thinking of giving lots more cover around the pond then I ever did before. Mostly cattails which isn't for most people. In my opinion the tadpoles and dragonflies are keeping the mosquito's & larva down and the FA is eaten by the tadpoles.

I left all my trees lining two fields just for the wildlife. Most around here bulldoze them for more planting space. I also live in an 8 acre woods and actually have made (planted 5 1/2 acres) a woods around the pond area mostly for wildlife and my serenity.

By the way I counted the 6"x6" poles yesterday on the 12'x24' platform and there are actually 15, not 12.

John- 5½ acres is a lot of work! Fortunately, the original family was thoughtful in their land use and left about ½ the property untouched. As our needs are different than our neighbors (cattle ranchers), we have the luxury of continuing that original plan. We have a lot of cleanup and some selective thinning (removing diseased and dead trees) ahead, though, as it looks like the property was neglected for the past few years. We’ll also be re-digging/cleaning out a couple of small stock tanks (.15 acres, .2 acres) that we discovered on an old satellite picture as they are now shallow depressions (silt runoff?). There is also a ¼ acre tank that the last owner dug that I am not sure what to do with as he dug it mid way on a hillside on the high side of the property. I am not sure what he was thinking as there isn’t much watershed in that area and it looks like something from an unnatural depiction of the lunar landscape. We’ll figure it out, though..

If the cattails get out of control or you decide to go with another plant, would you be open to goats? I’ve used goats for 20+ years to do selective thinning/clearing and have been happy with the results. I don’t know if you’re familiar with them, but they are rugged, quick, able to access areas that are either too steep or too thickly overgrown for conventional methods, and will re-seed and fertilize the area if you add your seed to some grain and feed it to them. The limiting factor is seed size – the seed must be small enough to pass thru rather than being digested). Best of all, they can be trained with a minimal amount of effort to respect a hot net and their manure resembles a juniper berry (no cow pies to worry about). Although I’ve not used them for cattails personally, cattails are on their “candy” list. Just a thought…

Thank you for the pole information – I updated my notes. I am curious to see how your pond evolves. Will you keep us updated? Many thanks!

Thanks for the goat info. The cattails used to be kept in their place nice and neat by 18 large grass carp I had, only I didn't realize just how good of a job they were doing until they died. Muskrats which visit occasionally helped also I think. Even the Water Irises could mussel into a patch of cattails and slowly overtake them, but that took lots of time, and of course with help from the GC. Now my cattails have exploded, but I see a few things to like about them. The wood ducks like to sleep in them at night, the frogs seem to like them and it helps to keep my dog Dolly from catching so many and when my pond recedes from summer evaporation it helps cover the muddy shore that is exposed. So I can play with them and see what happens. But this isn't for your typical ponder. Keep us up to date on your pond and area. It sounds exciting and I will do the same.

this is a great experience thank you for sharing it with us.

I can tell you another critter that will control cattails with a vengeance: Beaver. Seems to be favorite food at my place.

Was surprised to find out that beaver also tear up water lilies.