Pond Boss

I was just wondering if anybody has ever tried raising fish in old above ground swimming pools.

I would think there would be no problem with soft fish like goldfish or trout but I'd be afraid that the spines of tilapia and especially catfish would cause leaks by poking holes in the lining of any soft pool and maybe even a 45 mil fish rated pond liner! I don't know the thickness of an average swimming pool liner but I know you can buy new liners for an old pool at 25 mils thick. Does anyone know of anyone with first hand experience with talapia or catfish poking holes in above ground swimming pools?
Tilapia do have extremely sharp spines, but they are not nearly as long as a catfish. 8-10 mil would probably never get punctured by a tilapia. I have on occasion had doubled 4mil shipping bags get punctured from rough handling or a fish jumpiing into 2 inch deep water, but never triple bags. For large8"+ fish, I use doubled 5mil bags and never had a puncture, but those are always air-freighted and rarely get rough handling.
This is great news. I also just hit the jackpot for information on raising talapia at home!

http://tilapiafarmingathome.com/default.aspx

I been searching for a week and I finally was able to find a good website. Perhaps I got lucky but I think it was because this forum gave me enough knowledge to finally enter the right search terms!

Look at all the talapia in pools! Funny that I get the answer from you and find it myself at virtually the same time! I know those pools aren't rated for fish but there are plenty of green pools sitting around in people's back yards to be had for cheap. I can't wait to get started.

I ordered my first piece of back yard pond equipment today. A half HP stainless steel encased cast iron sump pump I got used on amazon.com at a price I couldn't refuse. I will get my first used "talapia" pool soon. I just know there's somebody that has one in their back yard that wants to get rid of it for cheap with my name on it!
Surfsteve, you may want to be careful about the "jackpot" or any other sites for that matter. There is a lot of good information but unfortunately there can be some mis-information in them also. Read everything carefully and research several sites for information...there are a LOT of aquaponics sites, some better than others. There is a lot of myth as well, most of it created by marketing from the aquarium industry. I research nearly constantly to learn where and what I can, and inform when I can. There is no right way or wrong way to raise fish!!! There is only YOUR way. Well, your way if the state you live in allows it.

One of the better sites that I last looked at was Aquaponicshq.com. It is a fairly small Austrailian forum, but it has a very good site owner and many participants wanting to learn different ways to do things. You'll find some of the sites try to dictate how things MUST be done.
Ditto with what Rex said but it can be done. Can I suggest a book called Small Scale Aquaculture by Steven VanGorder? An entire chapter on Tilapia breeding and almost the rest of the book covers systems used to raise them. Even shows you how to build a recirculating aquaculture system, which I built for my basement and is covered in the most recent issue of Pond Boss. The book is available on Amazon.com for about $25.00.


You might find some good leads in this doc as well
http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/Travis/Aquaponics_Common_Sense_Guide.pdf
Thanks! I downloaded and read all of the free articles that you guys posted. Not much in any of them about using swimming pools but at this point it looks like the best idea.

My next question has to do with filtering the swimming pool.

Can I make what is the equivalent of a giant underground aquarium filter for a swimming pool?

I would like to make the center of the pool a little deeper than the edges so that everything gravitates to the middle. Then I think something like a tall distribution box for a drainfield with drain hoses coming out of it going all around the bottom of the pool. Everything duct taped securely and it must be tall enough to reach above the surface and big enough to run the sump pump. The sump pump could be put inside it to pump out the water that has been filtered by the gravel.

Next I think all the drain pipes should be covered with a thin layer of volcanic 3/4 gravel.

Then a layer of 30 inch wide by 1 inch thick furnace filter cloth should be rolled 1 or 2 layers thick over the entire bottom or at least over the drain hoses.

Finally I think I should add another really thick layer of volcanic gravel. Perhaps several feet deep in the center and only a few inches near the edges of the pool.

As a precaution I think it would be a good idea to put a layer of furnace filter cloth over any part of the bottom the rock is going to be touching so it doesn't poke holes in the liner. I seen this stuff as cheap as 12 dollars for a 20 foot by 30 inch roll.

I suppose I could always add an additional filter after the discharge if I needed to but if it's not needed I think the water should be used for aeration. I'm picturing a bunch of shower heads squirting back into the water. Perhaps it would be a good idea to point them all so that they make the water swirl in a circular vortex towards the middle.

Do you guys think this would be plenty to keep my water clean?
Originally Posted By: surfsteve


Do you guys think this would be plenty to keep my water clean?




Nope. You need biological filtration along with mechanical. Otherwise your fish will die of ammonia poisoning.

Sounds like you're trying to reinvent the wheel. There are simple systems that you can build yourself that will do the job. Why take the chance on something that won't work?
Cecil - Don't be too harsh too quickly saying his planned filter system won't work. It could very well work but would not support very many fish - a few at most. Although we are pretty sure "surfsteve" wants to grow more fish in the pool than just a few tilapia or other species. Surfsteve, the boot Cecil suggested utilizes upground pools. I also highly suggest you get VanGroder's book. It can often be found on used book sites.
Bill,

I wasn't trying to sound harsh. I'm sorry it came off that way.
Maybe harsh was not the correct word that I want to use. Maybe negative?
Nah that's even worse. How about realistic from the school of hard knocks? grin

Cecil - that is a good school. I'm still attending it, but will probably never graduate. BC.
Hey Surfsteve,

I have a small 80 gallon stock tank in the backyard with just one bass in it. I can tell you from experience that you are probably going to want to get some biological filtration as had been suggested.

I was using just mechanical at first, and it was "working", but the water was very very dirty, and ammonia / nitrate levels were higher than I was comfortable with. I had to do a lot of constant water changes. Keep in mind this is with just ONE bass.

The water started to clear up when I added biological filtration. I basically stuck a lot of nylon sponge things (i don't know what they are called...) into the filter box to serve as the biological filtration media.

I would actually get a few fish and go with your proposed plan. Make sure you have your system up and running a few weeks before you even put any fish in it (or however long it takes for the tank to cycle).

Your plan will probably not work out exactly how you have imagined, but I think you should go ahead with it. I learned a lot from "failing" (kind of a harsh word) the first few times, but who knows, your system might work!

I would normally say that life is too short to make "mistakes" others have already made, but I think this is a valuable learning opportunity for you.

Have fun with it, and keep us filled in with how things progress.


Yes. I have heard that scrubbies, bioballs and a whole bunch of other things make good bio filter media but I also read that volcanic rock is pretty good and I can get a whole pick up load for a few dollars and gas. What's wrong with using volcanic rock as bio-filter media?

I found this quote: "For years, "lava rock" has been used as a bio filter media with good results."
Source: http://wernersponds.com/biofiltermedia.htm

Here is another... Filter Material:
Cover the entire area with
bio-balls, lava rock, scrubber
pads or any other material for
the bacteria to colonize.
Source: http://www.pelomedusa.com/Filter.html


I've looked at the biological filtration filters and I don't understand what the difference is if it is above ground or under ground. Isn't what I'm doing the same thing? Why wouldn't the lava rock develop micro organisms that filter it under the gravel just the same as if I were pouring it through the bio filter on top? I always had a clean fish tank when I had an undergravel filter in my aquariums and I never had to change the water. I realize it will take a month or two for microbes to build up in the gravel but how does it differ from using the bottom of the pond as one giant bio filter than running everything through a box on top the pond? It seems like both would work equally well; unless one were a lot bigger.

Has anyone ever tried it?
Surf,

Just speaking from my saltwater aquarium days but I think the biggest difference would be the volume of water passing over the lava rock and lighting conditions.

Typical biofilters for saltwater aquariums are normaly under the tank in a dark cabinet where lighting conditions are prime for bacterial growth. Theres also an exchange of gases thats available by placing bio media in a filter compartment or in a sump tank that probably isn't as effective as some rock laying in the bottom similar to gravel.

People doing saltwater aquariums are creative in their filter media to say the least, I would look up some of thier DIY stuff and see what they may be using for some ideas.. who can say what will and what won't work.

I am trying to raise GSH in an 80 gallon horse trough. I siphoned water into a 5 gallon pail full of bioballs and then use a powehead to pump the water back up into the trough. The water became considerably clearer when we added this over the typical over the back carbon filter.
I am a budding tilapia grower. I am not at all new to keeping fish in closed systems though. The site that you found does have some good info, but steer way clear of hybrids if you want a sustainable system. Notice the owner of the site will sell you a package of two species of Tilapia, but does not sell breeding pairs of either species respectively. Hybrids will not breed true, so you will not be able to retain your own breeding stock, and will have to keep purchasing broodstock from him every couple years. I have a solution, I will sell you 7 blue tilapia for $400. Just kidding.
But really, purchase a pure strain. If you lose some stock, you will be able to replace it from your own offspring. I am sure Rex could set you up with some good breeders.
Lava rock is decent media, but will become clogged with age. An undergravel filter becomes clogged quickly because waste settles to the bottom. Also, it is underwater, and therefore is not as efficient as trickle filters or wet/dry filters. The bacteria are more efficient in a highly aerobic environment. The exception to this rule is a fluidized bed filter, which seems unbeatable when it comes to eating ammonia, and nitrites. If you are not looking at heavy stocking densities, your design might work. Though for less cost you could fill a 55 gallon plastic barrel up with volcanic rock, drill holes in the bottom, suspend it above your pool, and pump water up above it to a spray bar. This would actually be more efficient than an undergravel filter. If you are looking for heavier densities, you should look into a fluidized bed or maybe the rotating drum wet dry filters. Cecil wrote an article in the most recent Pondboss magazine showing his set up with this type of rotating drum.
Don't skimp on biological filtration.
Oh also microbes won't just show up to a level that will support fish. You have to either gradually add fish, or preferably feed the bacteria pure ammonia until the system is fully cycled.http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_fishless.php
This link will describe fishless cycling, it is geared towards aquariums, but you can upsize it. This product will work perfectly as an ammonia source.http://www.aquaticeco.com/customers/subcategories/1716/ProLine-Ammonium-Chloride/ammonia/4
Good luck
What brier said!

It takes time for the two species of bacteria you need to detoxifiy the ammonia and nitrites to get established. If you think you can just add water and fish and some lava rocks you're sadly mistaken. They don't call it "new tank syndrome" for nothing.

Biological filtration is a must! Without it you're just killing fish.
Lava rock will work (at least in KOI ponds) but it is a lot easier to clean if you have it in a consolidated location. Bigger fish make bigger solid wastes which will clog Biofilters, so cleaning is something you want to consider.

Everything that the water touches could develop microbes, but you will need alot of surface area to convert the bioload produced. It would be a good idea to figure out what your Bio-load will be and then figure out how much lava rock you will need to meet that load.

There are some people who really hate underground filters and they list some compelling reasons why you should stay away from them. try googling ugf filters and I am sure you will find some good info.
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Surfsteve, the book Cecil suggested utilizes upground pools. I also highly suggest you get VanGroder's book. It can often be found on used book sites.


Brand new it's only $25.00. It's a steal for the wealth of information it has. Not difficult to read either like some aquaculture books.
Since I assume that your pool is outside, don't let the neighbors see you peeing into your pool. Cecil was able to get away with it because his tank was in the basement. grin
Try reading thru this hole book,(free) the patent holder dr. Novak (American) is a sientist but also a hoby koi enthusiast.
There is a lot off controversy to his filter system (anoxic)but it seems most off his critics manufactur or distribut(sell) competing technology for big money, so a cheap DIY solution is bad for buisnis?

He coresponds with happy Koi breders around the world, that have adopted this way off filtering the koi pond.

http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/anoxic_filtration.html.

The site is indipendent and have made the anoxic filter solution understandable (language) to hobyists.
Dr. Novak still get prety heavy beating on a lot off koi forums, by "disbelivers" However the number off people sucsesfully using anoxic filtration is increasing in the US as well.
Seems it's hard to become a "profet" in your own country.

Iff you dont belive in the method after reading the book I think maybe, 1. generation ERIC (Endless River In Concrete)by Waddy is a good an cheap($) route to prosue if your handy(DIY), do to the simplisity off the set up.
Originally Posted By: andedammen
Try reading thru this hole book,(free) the patent holder dr. Novak (American) is a sientist but also a hoby koi enthusiast.


Interesting read, have you used this system?

It sounds like it would have a big foot print (1 ft3 per fish) to handle a swimming pool sized system, but it might not be bad as a polishing tank after mechanical and biological filtration.
Just for the record I get nothing for suggesting the book Small Scale Aquaculture, and all the components in the book are homemade. No systems are sold in the book.

The book has opened up a new world of possibilities for my side business of aquaculture and saved me a lot of money. A similar turn key system from AES is about 5 grand. I built all of this for about $400.00 tops. This book is gold mine for hobbyists too. Also there's nothing better than building your own system to fully understand the RAS concept and become self reliant.

I personally don't care for the trickle or underwater filters because they eventually clog with debris. With an RBC if you keep it separate of the fish tank (which I will do soon) it will stay self maintained indefinitely. There's also an incredible surface area of over 600 square feet in the one I built from the book, and it could easily maintain over 100 lbs. of Talapia in the swimming pool in question.

The clarifier is a gem too and easily built with a 55 gallon drum, some PVC, and some deer fence netting for filtration material. Easy to clean also.

Here's a small stock tank I used for my fish tank with the RBC in the tank. You can see a u-tube siphon in the foreground that automactially works via gravity to move water to the clarifier. No pump needed for that. However a small 60 watt pump does move water from the top of the clarifier to the frame of the RBC to rotate the RBC. There is another option in the book to run this all with an air pump and have additonal aeration to boot.




Here's the clarifier. It's amazing the waste this thing traps under the mesh filter material (deer fence mesh). It's very easy to drain and clean.



Here's the deer fence netting that is used in the clarifier:


Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Just for the record I get nothing for suggesting the book Small Scale Aquaculture, and all the components in the book are homemade. No systems are sold in the book.

The book has opened up a new world of possibilities for my side business of aquaculture and saved me a lot of money. A similar turn key system from AES is about 5 grand. I built all of this for about $400.00 tops. This book is gold mine for hobbyists too. Also there's nothing better than building your own system to fully understand the RAS concept and become self reliant.

I personally don't care for the trickle or underwater filters because they eventually clog with debris. With an RBC if you keep it separate of the fish tank (which I will do soon) it will stay self maintained indefinitely. There's also an incredible surface area of over 600 square feet in the one I built from the book, and it could easily maintain over 100 lbs. of Talapia in the swimming pool in question.

The clarifier is a gem too and easily built with a 55 gallon drum, some PVC, and some deer fence netting for filtration material. Easy to clean also.

Here's a small stock tank I used for my fish tank with the RBC in the tank. You can see a u-tube siphon in the foreground that automactially works via gravity to move water to the clarifier. No pump needed for that. However a small 60 watt pump does move water from the top of the clarifier to the frame of the RBC to rotate the RBC. There is another option in the book to run this all with an air pump and have additonal aeration to boot.




Here's the clarifier. It's amazing the waste this thing traps under the mesh filter material (deer fence mesh). It's very easy to drain and clean.



So how big is the Stock Tank you are using now?

How many fish do you have in it?

How long does it take to get them ready to put fish in them and what sizes are safe to put it in?

What exactly is RBC?

How often do you have to remove the solids and how hard is it to do?
Thanks
No, I have not got around to it yet, been and are prety sick still (lymes/tick-bite), so wery litle action, since I came over the book.
You find americans on this thread that use it, and phone number to dr. Novak, and he gives the advice/help free off charge.

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?94835-Anoxic-Filtration.

I am planing a RAS when I get back on my feet and it will be a hybrid. Principals from 1. generation ERIC (setelling and brush camber) for mecanical filter , and anoxic for the biofilter.
As CB1 points out the cloging and cleaning is the draw back on most filters, that is not an isue with such hybrid.
And the hole thing I can build off scrap almost free.

It has a footprint yes big ?? the eric chambers are easy to hide long shalow/narow chanels
The anoxic bio filter are ornemental beautyes if set up right, and can be a water garden (aquaphonics) if wanted.
Space is not a problem here got plenty,however temp. C/F is and anoxic biofilter keeps doing the job even below freeze where as aerob/anerob bio filters drop in eficensy along with faling temp, and would have to be heated 4-6 months off the year around here and/or inside a insuleated building.

Video clip from a DIY ERIC from a Norwegian koi freak
http://www.youtube.com/user/topaha#p/u/4/bS-f__5NeOE

A good book to read on pros and cons off differente types off filters is published on Waddys home page the author is dead.
http://www.koikichi.com/alans-book/page-2.php
I love that setup Cecil. Is that yours or is it from the book? It is incredibly brilliant! OK... forget the gravel entirely. I'm hooked on the idea of the deer net clarifiers. I want my fish outside so I probably would need to build them with black drums so they don't get clogged with algae.

Do you use an inverted milk carton for your settling area and drain excess waste off the bottom of the clarifier?
If so how often? Also what is the cap on the siphon for? Can you somehow start the siphon by putting water in there?

What's going on with the rotating drum? Is that green film over that white stuff only on the outside of it or does it go all the way through the cylinder? Looks like it was made from a solid cylinder of styrofoam. Is that correct? That goes directly in your pond? I don't think that would work outside. Could you explain what it is and how it works better? RBC... Rotating Bio Cylinder?

In the greenwater tank culture system I read about they only used aeriation and clarifiers. No filters. The clarifiers looked huge and expensive. I think they used a 350 gallon one on a 20 foot diameter tank. Do you think using six or seven 55 gallon drum deer net clarifiers would be just as good on a swimming pool of the same size or would I also need additional filtration?
Originally Posted By: esshup
Since I assume that your pool is outside, don't let the neighbors see you peeing into your pool. Cecil was able to get away with it because his tank was in the basement. grin


You just can't let that go can you Scot? grin
laugh


Well I could say you need to subscribe to Pond Boss to support the webstie to get the answers to the following questions but I won't. Hint, hint! grin

Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
So how big is the Stock Tank you are using now?


It's 300 gallons and just under five feet across. The RBC is actually sized for a 12 foot swimming pool. In the book Small Scale Aquaculture they use a 12 foot swimming pool with a liner for tilapia.

Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
How many fish do you have in it?


I have several hundred 4 to 6 inch bluegills in it that started out at about 1/2 to 3/4 inches in February including some I brought in a few months later from a floating cage that were already 2 to 4 inches.

Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
How long does it take to get them ready to put fish in them and what sizes are safe to put it in?


It depends on the temperatures. The closer to optimum for the two species of bacteria the faster it happens. Optimum is upper 70's to low 80's. There a slight different in preference of the two species but not enough to worry about. My water was quite cold in the low 60's F. this winter without heaters so it took about 5 weeks if I remember right. In optimum temps you could have the tank cycling in two weeks, especially if you seeded it with some bacteria from another tank or aquarium.

Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
What exactly is RBC?


Rotating biological contact filter. The plates are surface area for the nitrosomonas and nitrobactors. The plates moving in and out of the water keeps them wet but contact with the air gives them plenty of oxygen.

Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
How often do you have to remove the solids and how hard is it to do? Thanks


I drain and clean the clarifier ever couple of days but could probably get by with doing it less often. In the book Small Scale Aquaculture with the 12 foot swimming pool there are two clarifier tanks and I believe they only do it once a week.

Not difficult at all. I have a bulkhead in the bottom of the tank that is connected to a PVC elbow and a barb fitting and a simple clear hose clamped on that when not in use is mounted vertically on the wall. When I want to drain the clarifier I simply drop the hose into a drain in my basement floor. However before that I detach an extension on the clarifer end of u-tube and cap the short end. This keeps the siphon intact. In the picture I added a 't' for fill up but it's really not needed, and it created problems for me as apparently it has an air leak in the threads. Just a u-tube made of PVC and PVC elbows works great. There's no need to reestablish the siphon each time as long as you cap it under water.

It takes about 10 minutes for the clairifer to drain by gravity. Then I remove the filter material and spray it off in the drum, and the put the filter material temporarily in another drum next to the clarifer. This takes another 5 minutes or so. So total time to drain and clean about 15 minutes. Of course I can go do something else while the clarifier is draining. Once the tank is completely drained I mount the hose up on the wall vertically and secure with a zip tie. Before I used the insurance of the zip tie, one day I was sitting the nearby shop working on taxidermy and a flow was water shot past me!

Make up water gets pumped in with a battery powered pump from an iron removal system I set up which runs on the same principal as the clarifer but consists of two drums side by side.

Here's the bottom drain on the clarifier. The tank is mounted on a cinder blocks to clear the plumbing from the floor.



Here's various drain hoses mounted on the wall when I don't want them to drain. The water will only come up to the level of the clarifier.





Here are some fish. The water does have a brown tint due to tannins in the feed, but the flash gave it a yellow color for some reason.


Originally Posted By: Bill Cody

Cecil - that is a good school. I'm still attending it, but will probably never graduate. BC.


Same here but staying in that school and learning is fun so I don't mind! grin I seem to learn the best from my mistakes and also retain more! wink
Originally Posted By: andedammen
Try reading thru this hole book,(free) the patent holder dr. Novak (American) is a sientist but also a hoby koi enthusiast.
There is a lot off controversy to his filter system (anoxic)but it seems most off his critics manufactur or distribut(sell) competing technology for big money, so a cheap DIY solution is bad for buisnis?

He coresponds with happy Koi breders around the world, that have adopted this way off filtering the koi pond.

http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/anoxic_filtration.html.

The site is indipendent and have made the anoxic filter solution understandable (language) to hobyists.
Dr. Novak still get prety heavy beating on a lot off koi forums, by "disbelivers" However the number off people sucsesfully using anoxic filtration is increasing in the US as well.
Seems it's hard to become a "profet" in your own country.

Iff you dont belive in the method after reading the book I think maybe, 1. generation ERIC (Endless River In Concrete)by Waddy is a good an cheap($) route to prosue if your handy(DIY), do to the simplisity off the set up.


Andy,

When I get time I will read this. I'm always interested in new ideas. Thank you for providing the link!

Anerobic bacteria will also reduce nitrates which aerobic does not.
Be honest Cecil...WE know why that water is yellow! shocked laugh laugh
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
I love that setup Cecil. Is that yours or is it from the book?


No, all ideas and know how came from Steven Van Gorder and his book Small Scale Aquaculture. I wish I was that smart! I will tell you if I can build it anyone can. And if at first it looks complicated don't be scared away. It's actually a simple concept. Fish tank, biofilter, clarifier. That's it!

Originally Posted By: surfsteve
It is incredibly brilliant! OK... forget the gravel entirely. I'm hooked on the idea of the deer net clarifiers. I want my fish outside so I probably would need to build them with black drums so they don't get clogged with algae.


Actually if you have it outside you will have to deal with algae even with black drums. That is, unless you use some type of ultraviolet clarifier in your system. That said the algae is not necessarily a bad thing as it works on ammonia and produces oxygen during the day.

Originally Posted By: surfsteve
Do you use an inverted milk carton for your settling area and drain excess waste off the bottom of the clarifier?


No see my response to MrHello.


Originally Posted By: surfsteve
If so how often? Also what is the cap on the siphon for? Can you somehow start the siphon by putting water in there?


No and Yes. Also see my response to MrHello.

Originally Posted By: surfsteve
What's going on with the rotating drum? Is that green film over that white stuff only on the outside of it or does it go all the way through the cylinder? Looks like it was made from a solid cylinder of styrofoam. Is that correct? That goes directly in your pond? I don't think that would work outside. Could you explain what it is and how it works better? RBC... Rotating Bio Cylinder?

It goes directly into the tank of fish but I will be moving it out ASAP to a connecting tank. It is getting a little dirty with particulates which reduces it's effectivenes.

It's a series of alternating plates made of fiberglass roofing and polystyrene plastic that provide surface area for the bacteria that will detoxify your water. The foam is only for flotation and is four pieces a couple of inches thick if I remember right. There a couple of PVC axles inserted into each other in the middle.

You really need to see the book Small Scale Aquaculture to see how it's done and how to build it. The book has specs and everything. There a couple of minor errors on measurements, which I cover in the Pond Boss article.

[quote=surfsteve]In the greenwater tank culture system I read about they only used aeriation and clarifiers. No filters. The clarifiers looked huge and expensive. I think they used a 350 gallon one on a 20 foot diameter tank. Do you think using six or seven 55 gallon drum deer net clarifiers would be just as good on a swimming pool of the same size or would I also need additional filtration?


I don't know much about greenwater culture systems so I'm not qualified to answer that. I will say if you have a tank outside and you develop an algae bloom you have a greenwater system. However all those drums sound like a lot of trouble and expense to me. I'm a KISS guy. (Keep it Simple Stupid.)
Originally Posted By: Rainman
Be honest Cecil...WE know why that water is yellow! shocked laugh laugh


Good one Rex!
Cecil,

What is all that table salt sitting on the wall for?... Got a grill set up next to the tank for that special day smile

Nice to see some pic's of your BG, they look good!
Originally Posted By: JKB
Cecil,

What is all that table salt sitting on the wall for?... Got a grill set up next to the tank for that special day smile

Nice to see some pic's of your BG, they look good!



Everybody's in a teasing mood today! grin

For those of you that don't know I add salt to the make up water to get a 0.2 percent (2 ppt or 2 gm/l) solution of salt which reduces osmotic stress on the fish. I also used a much higher amount as a dip before I added them to the system to kill any parasites hitchhiking a ride.
Cecil,

Thanks for the info that is helpful.

By the way I subscribed to Pond Boss last Friday.

Will salt kill the yellow grubs the BG get?
Would the clarifier be more effective if it were ebb and flow instead of just water running through it?
Nope, wont kill yellow grub, but it will go along way to control ectoparasites like leech's and anchor worms. Also makes O2 more available, and nitrite less toxic. Sorry, I know that question was directed towards Cecil, but I could not resist.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
Would the clarifier be more effective if it were ebb and flow instead of just water running through it?
It would surely be more complicated.
Brier,

Not a problem, nor did I think it would kill them either as I have seen them crawl out of the fish fillet after cleaning them while they are soaking in salt water.

They just hung out at the bottom of the bowl and when dumped the fish to rinse them I noticed they were still alive.

Now I guess this may seem like why did I ask the question, but I just wanted to know if maybe there was a certain amount of salt that has to be added to kill each type of parasite.

Thanks
It is the fact that white grub is encysted that makes them tough to kill. Salt might very well kill a white grub if it is loose in the water given enough time. But you simply cannot soak a freshwater fish long enough in a strong enough solution of saltwater to kill an encysted parasite. It does work very well for ectoparasites like I mentioned above, and also for ich. It wont do much for the actual ICH on the fish, but Ich has a short life cycle, and during its freeswimming form, it is highly susceptible to salinity. So with the right amount of salt, it cannot complete its life cycle, and dies out
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Cecil,

Thanks for the info that is helpful.

By the way I subscribed to Pond Boss last Friday.


Good deal. Nice to see you're helping support the website unlike a few other people around here that just want free info. whistle

Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Will salt kill the yellow grubs the BG get?


No, but I don't see any in my fish since I stake off the pond banks from the herons. As long as there isn't a snail in your tank and a pet heron in the house you shouldn't have to worry. grin

I suppose one could treat the fish for internal parasites in a separate tank if need be as long as they are not food fish. Aquatic Ecosytems has some chemicals used for Koi. I could do that as my fish are destined live for aquariums and frozen to other taxidermists.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
Would the clarifier be more effective if it were ebb and flow instead of just water running through it?


I don't believe so. My thinking is the more flow you can get through the filter the better, so running it 24/7 would be best.
Originally Posted By: brier
Nope, wont kill yellow grub, but it will go along way to control ectoparasites like leech's and anchor worms. Also makes O2 more available, and nitrite less toxic. Sorry, I know that question was directed towards Cecil, but I could not resist.


Not a problem Brier. I look forward to your input. I hope you keep us apprised of your operation, and any time you can add to the discussion please do so.

Hey speaking of nitrites did you know fish in the sunfish family are very tolerant of nitrites?
Originally Posted By: brier
It is the fact that white grub is encysted that makes them tough to kill. Salt might very well kill a white grub if it is loose in the water given enough time. But you simply cannot soak a freshwater fish long enough in a strong enough solution of saltwater to kill an encysted parasite. It does work very well for ectoparasites like I mentioned above, and also for ich. It wont do much for the actual ICH on the fish, but Ich has a short life cycle, and during its freeswimming form, it is highly susceptible to salinity. So with the right amount of salt, it cannot complete its life cycle, and dies out


If I might add, Ich can also be controlled by manipulating water temperature in a tank. Fortunately I've never experienced Ich and hope I never will.
Found some interesting info on cold tolerance of Nile Tilapia.

http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ista/ista6/ista6web/pdf/030.pdf
Just to be sure that nobody kills fish with salted water, don't forget that the salt has to be the non-iodized variety...
I wonder if pool salt would work, much cheaper to buy in 40 pound bag.
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
Would the clarifier be more effective if it were ebb and flow instead of just water running through it?


I don't believe so. My thinking is the more flow you can get through the filter the better, so running it 24/7 would be best.


I was sure you were going to say ebb and flow would be much better. Otherwise why go through all the trouble of making a Rotating Biological Contact filter? I guess the real question is. Do the microbes in the filter do their job better if they are kept wet all the time? Or is it better if they are continuously dunked? And if so. Is it significantly better?

Also. The purpose of making the outdoor filters out of black barrels would be in my mind to keep the light out of the barrels so algae doesn't grow on the deer net, which I am afraid might render it useless. It has nothing to do with trying to filter the algae in the water out. I read that algae is good food for tilapia. I wasn't sure if you understood me. I guess I should have asked. Will the algae harm the biological filtering process by competing with the microbes if allowed to grow on the deer net? Seems like it would mess things up. But on the other hand if Algae gets caught up in the filter in the dark I think it would die and either settle to the bottom of the tank or become food for the microbes. Any ideas?
Ebb and flow as I know about it, is a good substitute for VERY low flow pumps and is essentially a self flushing toilet and used to flood growing beds in an aquaponic setup. In these systems, solid waste should not be removed from the water per se, but added to the plant section where the nutrients can be broken down and taken up by plant matter. The turbulance created would, I think, be counter-productive to a clarifier being similar to a settling tank. This works okay if you want a system that is "off the grid" and use solar pumps.

I wonder about "the more flow the better" thought also. Too much flow and there is not enough time for seperation ...again, turbulance.

Just my opinion and first thoughts based on a lot of input from customer's experiences.

I can comment about algae in the bio-filtration process. Algae is a substrate for beneficial bacteria, and I main food source for nearly any species of tilapia. It can also clog nearly anything it enters. Your goals and system will determine whether algae growth is a good thing or a bad thing.
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: brier
Nope, wont kill yellow grub, but it will go along way to control ectoparasites like leech's and anchor worms. Also makes O2 more available, and nitrite less toxic. Sorry, I know that question was directed towards Cecil, but I could not resist.


Not a problem Brier. I look forward to your input. I hope you keep us apprised of your operation, and any time you can add to the discussion please do so.

Hey speaking of nitrites did you know fish in the sunfish family are very tolerant of nitrites?

No, I was not, but does not surprise me, they are hardy buggers, and I think often overlooked as a potential aquaculture genus. I would think with some selective breeding one could really get some fast growing lepomis strains started.
Originally Posted By: esshup
Just to be sure that nobody kills fish with salted water, don't forget that the salt has to be the non-iodized variety...


According to the fish geeks over at NANFA that has been disproven via research. They even provided me with links.

My local grocer was out of nonionized, and I used ionized for a while. Didn't have any problems whatsoever. I do use unionized if I can get it though as I feel better using it.
Another wives tale shot down!
Originally Posted By: surfsteve

I was sure you were going to say ebb and flow would be much better. Otherwise why go through all the trouble of making a Rotating Biological Contact filter? I guess the real question is. Do the microbes in the filter do their job better if they are kept wet all the time? Or is it better if they are continuously dunked? And if so. Is it significantly better?


The rotating filter keeps them wet but they are out of the water just long enough so they are not oxygen starved. There is a specific rpm that is best, but off hand I don't remember it specifically. It's something like 2 rmps give or take.

Originally Posted By: surfsteve
Also. The purpose of making the outdoor filters out of black barrels would be in my mind to keep the light out of the barrels so algae doesn't grow on the deer net, which I am afraid might render it useless. It has nothing to do with trying to filter the algae in the water out.


You'll still get algae in the tank itself, which will end up in the deer netting filter material. Apparently the algae in the netting does not render it useless as the system in the book Small Scale Aquaculture has plenty of algae in it. In fact the more clogged the filter gets the getter it holds in particulate matter to a point.

Originally Posted By: surfsteve
I read that algae is good food for tilapia. I wasn't sure if you understood me. I guess I should have asked. Will the algae harm the biological filtering process by competing with the microbes if allowed to grow on the deer net? Seems like it would mess things up. But on the other hand if Algae gets caught up in the filter in the dark I think it would die and either settle to the bottom of the tank or become food for the microbes. Any ideas?


You really need to get the book Small Scale Aquaculture. It will answer all your questions and more. I don't have an issue with algae in my indoor set up so I can't answer your questions from experience.
Originally Posted By: Rainman


I wonder about "the more flow the better" thought also. Too much flow and there is not enough time for seperation ...again, turbulance.



If I didn't qualify that statement by saying there is a limit I should have. Yes, there is a point where too much flow too fast could defeat the purpose of trapping the particulates. The book specifically told me what size pump to get for the 55 gallon claifier drum, and I strictly adhered to that.

The point I was trying to make is you want clarification to take place 24/7 and an ebb and flow wouldn't do that. At least I don't think so.

I was on my way to buy a 10 x 3 foot pool and mentioned it to my neighbor and she sold me her 15 x 4 foot pool instead. It's going to take forever to fill. I'm going to add about 300 gallons of greenwater from my kiddie pond that I been hauling with buckets by hand and add 5 tablespoons of miracle grow for tomatoes to start it. I called a guy in Oceanside and he's agreed to sell me 100, 3 to 5 inch tilapia for $150. I'm planning on picking up my 55 gallon barrels on the same trip and making the filters. I ordered some deer netting but I will have to order some more because of the bigger pool. I thought this weekend was kind of soon to add fish but the guy swears they will be ok. I tried to get more time but he will sell them to someone else if I don't come and get them this weekend. I'm going to insist on Sunday to get maximum time.

What do you guys think about making a filter out of a 275 gallon tote instead of several 55 gallon drums? I wonder if I can get one of those on my geo and still have room to strap a 55 gallon drum on top that for my kiddie ponds. Probably just one tote or three drums is the max I will be able to fit up there.

Also I ordered the book on Amazon.com
If I may ask, where by Oceanside? I used to live there.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve

I was on my way to buy a 10 x 3 foot pool and mentioned it to my neighbor and she sold me her 15 x 4 foot pool instead. It's going to take forever to fill. I'm going to add about 300 gallons of greenwater from my kiddie pond that I been hauling with buckets by hand and add 5 tablespoons of miracle grow for tomatoes to start it. I called a guy in Oceanside and he's agreed to sell me 100, 3 to 5 inch tilapia for $150. I'm planning on picking up my 55 gallon barrels on the same trip and making the filters. I ordered some deer netting but I will have to order some more because of the bigger pool. I thought this weekend was kind of soon to add fish but the guy swears they will be ok. I tried to get more time but he will sell them to someone else if I don't come and get them this weekend. I'm going to insist on Sunday to get maximum time.

What do you guys think about making a filter out of a 275 gallon tote instead of several 55 gallon drums? I wonder if I can get one of those on my geo and still have room to strap a 55 gallon drum on top that for my kiddie ponds. Probably just one tote or three drums is the max I will be able to fit up there.

Also I ordered the book on Amazon.com


Boy I don't know Steve. That's not enough time to get the bacteria cycled. I think you're going to kill your fish.

I would prefer to use two 55 gallon drums for filtering myself but the tote may work fine. With my present system I only use one drum.
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1

Boy I don't know Steve. That's not enough time to get the bacteria cycled. I think you're going to kill your fish.


Not enough time for bacteria to cycle but he might get by due to the low stocking density and relatively small size of fish stocked. 15' X 4' pool will be around 5200 gallons so 100 shouldn't stink up the water too quickly.
I must add as well that you are buying dead fish swimming. Your ammonia level will spike for two weeks. You will need to do 75% water changes daily. This will do much damage to your fish, Then nitrites will spike, and you will need to do 75% water changes daily for another three weeks, and even more damage will be done to your remaining fish. You are going into this way too gung ho. Send me a PM in a month, and I will ship you some Tilapia to replace your first batch. I am not joking. Without established biofiltration, your fish are going to poison themselves.
Wait! Get the filter cycled, and order some fish at that point. There are plenty of online distributors. Tilapia are crap machines. I have kept lots of fish in big tanks, and I have seen few fish put out this much waste. Your system needs to be eating close to 10 ppm ammonia per 24 hours before you put that amount of fish in it.

Edit. Saw your gallonage, and density, and it may not be quite so bleak. At least get a test kit, and be prepared for massive water changes.
SRAC Article: Tank Culture Of Tilapia

check it out

http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/136/tank-culture-of-tilapia

Oceanside is between LA and San Diego.
That was a great article to a great thread Bender! You guys have probably saved me years of experimenting.

I kind of agree with you guys on waiting. Some bad news I discovered is that my 5000 gallon pool is leaking. I only paid 35 dollars and I would have paid that for it leaking or not but I wish they would have told me it leaked before I started filling it. I went everywhere in town looking for a decent cheap pool. Everyone was sold out. Will try again tomorrow and also inform my tilapia supplier and see how long I can stall him off for.

My reason for wanting to use the 275 gallon totes as filters is because one tote will replace 5 of the 55 gallon drums. I'm thinking I'm going to start with about 55 gallons of filter for every 1000 gallons of water. I've read that one drum will filter up to 3000 gallons but not for tilapia if what you guys are saying and the article that was posted above. If I have to I will even double the filtration as the fish grow.

The plan is to go to locate a pool in the city tomorrow and set it up the same day. I think 100 fish will be ok in a 1250 gallon pool for a few days while my big pool is aging after I fix it. I have mega pumps both circulation and aeration. I will also probably cut down on their food till the filter(s) kick in and start doing their job. Hope that doesn't stunt their growth.

Check out the air pump I ordered.
http://www.amazon.com/Active-Air-Commerc...4599&sr=1-2

Good old Amazon! I also got some 2500 GPH magnetic drive water pumps that run off 265 watts of power for about the same price. Here's the link if anybody is interested.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0018CE6DQ/ref=oss_product
Only problem is if you read the reviews they are for dog food. Yesterday when I ordered them there was a picture of a pump and today there is a picture of dog food but the description still says pump. Guess I'll find out in a few days if they sent me the right product. The price does sound a little too good to be true.

I also drove by a feed store that was closed and noticed they had 55 gallon drums and they are used. They also had some plastic round watering tanks. Going to call and find out how much tomorrow.
These are good air pumps, but will only last about a year before you need to change diaphragms. They will become loud and clacky. Don't know if that is a word. but that's what they do. You can buy replacement diaphragms for a couple bucks, and they are good for another year or so. Rinse and repeat. I use similar pumps, and have changed the diaphragms several times, only takes a few minutes, and a phillips screwdriver.

As for the pondmaster pump, they are decent as well, as long as you are not asking it to lift much, or do long runs. Also be on the lookout for stray voltage with them. I had one in a tank, and the fish were not acting right, Then I had a small cut on my hand, and stuck my hand in the tank, and could feel the juice through the cut. Changed pumps, no more tingle in cuts, and the fish started eating well.
Also I will reiterate again that water, and your system will not simply age, you must feed it, monitor it with a test kit, and most of all be patient. Fishless cycling can be pretty fast if you start with some media full of bacteria. Go to a fish store, and ask them for some used filter media, fresh out of the filter. Put it in your filter, and feed ammonia, and follow the directions in the link that I provided above. You might if you are lucky, and the stars are aligned, make it happen in two weeks. More likely 3, but I have achieved 2 before.
I've have this pump in my pond going on it's third season, in the winter it runs nonstop, no problems with it.
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=139_267_532&products_id=1187

I found and patched two leaks in my pool today. I read everything I could about pools and seam leaks and the best thing for them is Plumbers Goop. If getting it off my fingers is any indication of how this stuff is going to work, I'd say it's going to work good.

I had planned on buying one 10,000 gallon pool, one 5,0000 and several 1200. Seems like the best deals for used pools are 15 and 20 footers. I wonder if I can use netting to build some sort of cages for dividing up the big pools instead. I can tell right now it's going to be useful to have plenty of back up pools for when they spring leaks. I've got a feeling I'm going to get pretty good at fixing them if I stay with this long enough!

There is also several brands of pool leak stop that is reported to work well on smaller leaks. Does anybody know of any pool leak stop solutions that are safe for fish?

I am planning on setting this pool up again tonight. Sure hope I got lucky and found all the leaks. The rest of them should be small. Perhaps I can patch them while the pool is full. Why do leaks always seem to be at the seams? Regular patch kits are useless over seams. One guys says the goop will work by putting it on the outside for small leaks while the water is still in the pool. I've got a feeling it will work great for fin punctures on the sides of the pool and that fish wont be as abusive to the bottom of the pool as human feet are.


Surfsteve, You are a wild man! I have to say, I love your enthusiasm.. I can tell you with 100% certainty that "Goop" will not stop leaks by applying it to the outside of a full pool. Not for any duration. There are some two part epoxies that are made for underwater repairs. Some are designed for PVC, which I assume your liner is made from? They come in a stick, and you knead them, mixing the parts. Home depot, or Lowes carries them, you will find them with the glues, usually near the paint department.
Oh, and the fin punctures in the pool will be a non issue.
Thanks!

I'm filling up my pool so far and no leaks. It was really windy just before sunset and it took me a while because I spent most of my time trying to hold the pool down. It just got to the shallow side which is about 4 to 6 inches difference. If I lived in sand I would have leveled the pool but I have solid clay and rock soil that takes months to drain and is a nightmare to excavate. Since this is the first pool I chose not to level it so I can see if the ground slope is going to be a problem with future pools.

What about fin punctures from catfish or claw punctures from freshwater crayfish? Can they be raised in soft pools as well?


I also forgot to mention that I carried three 55 gallon drums home on top my Geo today. I bet it was a sight going down the road.

Do you guys think it would be better if I threw my deer nets into my goldfish pond for a week or so till I get algae going in the new pool? I'm planning on leaving them rolled up so that they don't get caught up in it. I could run some mega air through it as soon as my new pump comes.

Gotta go check the pool for leaks...
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
What about fin punctures from catfish or claw punctures from freshwater crayfish? Can they be raised in soft pools as well?


Have you thought about rasing prawns (fresh water shrimp)? Check this out for more info http://www.freshwaterprawn.org/
Originally Posted By: surfsteve


Do you guys think it would be better if I threw my deer nets into my goldfish pond for a week or so till I get algae going in the new pool? I'm planning on leaving them rolled up so that they don't get caught up in it.


Why would you do that?
I have the sense that he's talking about getting the deer netting to start some bacteria growth as a way of helping the new "ponds" get cycled prior to adding fish. At least that's how I read it.
It would make more sense to but his biofilter material in the pond than the netting as the netting will be periodically scoured.
Yeah, I agree that the filter material would be best to help the cycling of the pools as opposed to the clarifier. But if he's not going to be scrubbing that stuff right away, it would probably accomplish the same goal as all of the water is going to cycle through that material just as much as it would via the filter - being a closed loop system - and so what's on the netting from the clarifier is going to end on the biofilter material just as well and will stay there once he scrubs the deer netting. Of course, again, I'm just kind of taking a stab at Steve's intent, though that is the reason that most readily comes to mind. Hopefully he'll jump in and share what he's thinking.
Here is another article on filtration.

http://www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/education/documents/LowCostBiofilters0305.pdf
Personally I wouldn't put anything from the pond into the tank. A great way to add parasites and potential disease. If it was me I'd use either fish feed or ammonia to feed the bacteria until the tank cycles. Then just before adding the fish they would get a salt dip to rid them of any ectoparasites. That is what I did and knock on wood I have no problems with parasites or disease.
Originally Posted By: Bender


All the data I've seen shows an RBC is the most efficient! laugh They cost a little more to build but you get what you pay for.
The deer netting IS the filter medium for the bio filter
Quote:
Use 4 to 5 bricks or a plastic pop crate in the bottom of the barrel to create the clear water space. Fill the barrel with any available plastic material. 2 or 3 20X20 ft fruit tree bird nets @ $6.00 ea. Or a roll of 5 ft. X 100 ft. deer fence @ $14.00 will do nicely. Just wad the netting unto the barrel and weight it down with a flat rock. Aquatic plants in the top will help hide the barrel and will help remove nutrients from the water.

Source: http://www.doughtywatergarden.com/Tips/55%20Gallon%20Biofilter.htm

I figure by putting them in the pond they will develop microbes on them even before they are stuffed into the biofilter.
I found this about salt

Quote:
When salt supplementation is advised, Morton recommends using Morton® White Crystal® Solar Salt or Morton® Canning and Pickling Salt for fish ponds and fresh water aquariums, as these products do not contain additives.


Source: http://www.mortonsalt.com/faqs/

I guess that means water softener salt is out of the question.
I and most hatcheries I am aware of use simple 'Stock Salt" from any $feed store or co-op. $3/bg in bulk or ~$7/bg. It comes in 50 pound bags.
I use uniodized salt from the grocery store. I don't use enough for it to be a cost issue, at least not yet.

Good news! My family may want to invest in building a pole barn and expanding my fish business. A building to overwinter fish and hold fish for sale has been my biggest impediment on expansion.

I'm thinking of selling and delivering grass carp and producing and selling tilapia for algae control since the dummies in my state are stuck on raising them for food fish and getting less. You can only hit someone in the head with a 2 X 4 so long.

Hey Rex if I produce enough you can get them from me for this area of the midwest. Then you can just drive an empty truck one way without all the hassle.
I think one 5000 gallon swimming pool would take about a 50 pound sack and you would be just under one tablespoon per gallon. I used about a heaping teaspoon I think in my aquariums.

I read that salt kills algae. I never had a problem growing algae in my aquariums at the level I used. Do you guys think using a whole tablespoon per gallon would still grow lots of algae?
Decide what concentration you want and you can use the chart and info here... www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/SALTTRANS.htm
Cecil, as you know, I'm an Indiana approved transporter and supplier for certified trilpoid GC if you pull the trigger on GC. You cold hold them in any of your ponds now.
Cecil, that's GREAT news! If you need a hand with anything just ask.
Surfsteve
I think this link would provide some good reading for you as well in your your project
http://www.aqualex.org/elearning/fish_feeding/english/bioenergetics/index.html
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Good news! My family may want to invest in building a pole barn and expanding my fish business. A building to overwinter fish and hold fish for sale has been my biggest impediment on expansion.


With your experience in raising fish this seems like a logical expansion for you. You might also want to look into SBA guaranteed loans and even farm loans to get this venture going.
Originally Posted By: Rainman
Cecil, as you know, I'm an Indiana approved transporter and supplier for certified trilpoid GC if you pull the trigger on GC. You cold hold them in any of your ponds now.


Sounds good although i was told by Malone and Sons that a truck comes up this way from their farm and I could meet them with my hauling tank as long as I have a grass carp permit which I do and I can get any time.
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
All the data I've seen shows an RBC is the most efficient! laugh They cost a little more to build but you get what you pay for.


What do you mean by "most efficient"? As far as foot print of the filter and bioload capacity, everything I have read points to a fluidized bed filter being the best. I have also read that a bio-reactor with kaldness media and other aerated moving bed biofilters are very good too.

I have not implemented either of these yet, so I am eager to hear about their pros/cons.

Removal Efficiencies:

RBC 74-83%
Trickling 23-51
fluidized bed 8-32%

http://www.aqualitysymposium.org/ppt...ofilters.ppt#1
Originally Posted By: jeffhasapond
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Good news! My family may want to invest in building a pole barn and expanding my fish business. A building to overwinter fish and hold fish for sale has been my biggest impediment on expansion.


With your experience in raising fish this seems like a logical expansion for you. You might also want to look into SBA guaranteed loans and even farm loans to get this venture going.


Thanks for the words of encouragement Jeff!
The number for fbf looks way too low to me, perhaps they are referring to the old gravel style fbfs. The enormous surface area of the sand in the the fbf (just under 8000sqft per cubic foot) should allow a much smaller foot print and according to this site they can chew through up to 100% of the ammonia in a single pass. I realize this is a manufacturer's site but I have read about high conversion rates other places as well.

It could also be that they are referring to the cost of running the filter, as RBC can run with only a small air pump and a sand fbf requires water to be pumped into the sand at good rate to keep it all moving.

I am not knocking on RBCs at all but, I have just read alot of material that backs sand filters. I am really interested in reading that report, but the link isnt working. Could you fix the link?
Bender,

I think the link was only temporary as it was a symposium or something. I tried it too and couldn't get it to come up.

You have some good points and I don't know enough about all the filters to make a good counterargument, but I do know one thing: Several people I know of that tried to use a sand filter exclusively had nothing but problems with clogging and channeling.


If a fluidized bed sand filter is properly designed, they last forever, are clog proof, are self-cleaning, and never need repair. The surface area of the sand is unmatched as well. There is also no other filter that can respond as rapidly to changes in bio-loads.

Fluidezed bed sand filters are not intended for clarifying of the water or any other "solids" removal. The sole problem I have found with a FBSF is if water flow is interupted for more than a few seconds without having a positive sealing check valve on the inlet side, re-starting is difficult.

These filters can't use ordinary sand and to operate properly the "sand" should be angular shaped and graded to near exact sizes and uniformity.

If people have problems with channeling or clogging, the chances are they are using the improper sand.
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Bender,

I think the link was only temporary as it was as symposium or something. I tried it too and couldn't get it to come up.

You have some good points and I don't know enough about all the filters to make a good counterargument, but I do know one thing: Several people I know of that tried to use a sand filter exclusively had nothing but problems with clogging and channeling.



Cecil, I googled the site and read the power point about 4am. They are right on the money! Why re-invent the wheel? Ego? Chance at making money? Publishing dollars?

My un-biased Engineering books, plus experience, tell me "You Go Cecil" with your RBC's. They are stable as a rock formation and top notch productive.

When you build your pole barn, I would do stick, like 2x6 and insulate well. After your building is up, and you want to do some nice recycle systems on a budget, let me know. No crazy electrical eating, non stable, machines are allowed!!!

Surfsteve: This is going to be a learning experience, and if things don't work exactly as envisioned or anticipated, keep on plugging away. Submerged filters are quite tricky at best. I have not got a clue as to what the surface area of the deer netting is per 100ft roll, but that is very important. I would also suggest that you throw away that link and do a down flow system with a good solids filter in place. You could maybe use one or two barrels on the up-flow side for solids filtration, then a few on the other side, down flow, for bio-filtration. Down flow on the 55 gallon drums will leave options open for aeration and gas stripping at a future date, albeit, not the best scenario. Then, at least you wont have too much to re-do, and can maybe toss in a few more fish after adjustments. Just my thoughts.
http://www.biofilters.com/webfilt.htm
Excellent link Rex!

My pool was leaking pretty bad so I found another pool just like mine only 2 feet bigger. Turns out mine is a 16 foot even though it only measures 15 and a half. I had thought maybe the frame had stretched but apparently it "shrunk" at the factory.

Anyway after I picked up the pool I picked up my fish. It was about 10 pm and I didn't get home till almost 2 in the morning when I got home and put the fish in the pool. YOU GUYS AREN'T KIDDING! I was amazed at the amount of crap and how dirty the water was by morning. That all happened yesterday and it looks like I'm going to need to do a partial water change by tomorrow. I only have the pool about 1/3 full because of the leak. Funny thing is it looks like all of the leaks in my pool have stopped since I added the fish. I got a feeling that they all got plugged up with fish poop. Hopefully I wont have to go through too many water changes once I get my biofilter up and running.

I've decided to stick with my original plan and build my first biofilter out of 55 gallon drums according to my first plans. Leaving the pool down low makes me realize that siphoning in and pumping out is NOT practical. I found a great video of nearly exactly what I'm going to build. Only differences are I'm going to flip my drum over and cut out the bottom instead of the top. That way I have a nice 2" threaded opening that I can put a ball valve to drain off the solids. I'm also thinking of using the piece I cut out as a shield to keep the current from disturbing solids on the bottom.

I found a neat video today showing the design of my filter. The guy used a smaller container than a drum. I want to also make some bigger filters. I'm a little concerned that a 700 sq ft deer net isn't going to provide enough surface area. I think I'll just start building filters experimenting and adding more and more of them till my pool stays clean without water changes. Water is expensive out here so I hope it doesn't take too long. My water test kit is due to arrive tomorrow. I can tell without the kit that it will already need changing

Here is the video of the filter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQugTLfN0zY
The guy used rope instead of deer mesh. I bet that works a lot better.
I just took a couple of pictures. Here is one of my pool


and here is one of my fish



Also that link about filtration was great. I did read in there that greenwater cultivation is difficult and should not be attempted by beginners so this is defiantly going to be a challenge. I can not believe the amount of algae and how fast it has grown. I added a total of 10 tablespoons of Miracle Gro to the pond. I wouldn't have added the last 5 tablespoons had I known I was going to find a back up pool 10 minutes later and be on my way to buy the fish. When I added 300 gallons of green goldfish water to it, it was so light green I couldn't even see a color change. This picture is only 4 days later. Tomorrow I intend to do a 2/3 water change. This totally blows away anything I have ever done in an aquarium!
This is going to be a fun project to follow.

Good luck. looks interesting.


I just got my water test kits and was very surprised. Amonia, nitrate and nitrites were all nearly zero but the PH was about 8.8. I'm not quite sure what to use to lower the PH. Any suggestions?
I think lime will but I have no idea what quantities would be needed.
No I need to do the opposite. Lime will make it worse (if that's possible). Is pool acid safe for fish? I read it's bad to keep changing PH and that it needs to be done slowly but I have no practical experience with PH. Does anyone have any formulas as to how much I can lower it and how fast?
Yep, you're right. I did a quick google search and found some reading for ya.

http://koiclubsandiego.org/library/alkalinity.php

http://wernersponds.com/pH.html

http://www.pondkoi.com/water_quality.htm

What is the pH of the water that you filled the pool with?
I tested my tap water and it's about 8.6. It might be the color of the algae making it look like 8.8 in the pool.

Your links are telling me the same thing. Don't mess with the PH unless you know what you are doing. It's possible my PH is even higher than 8.8 because when I did the low range test it didn't look quite as dark as the darkest color and it's still in the same place with the high range. I might just need an even higher range test kit if one exists. I should have figured living in death valley that the water would be really alkaline.
I been messing around with my tap water. I just added a teaspoon of vinegar (cider vinegar was all I had) to a gallon of water and it turned it about 6.8.

From what I read about PH I am going to keep that jug of water and test it ever few days and see if the water is buffered enough to turn the PH back or if it stays. From there I will have to determine the ratio of acidity from pool acid to cider vinegar and from teaspoons per gallon to gallons per 1000 and I will have a rough idea of what I am doing. I just drank some of the vinegar water and it tastes really good. A bit sweeter than plain tap water. I don't want to bring my water down to neutral but 8.2 or 8.5 might be a reasonable goal.
Check on the Tilapia. They might be more tolerant of higher pH than other fish. I'm sure I'm not the only one watching your results. wink
They are tilapia. About the toughest fish you can raise in an aquaculture system. I would leave them be, and see what happens. Ph is tough to work with, even tougher when you have green water. I would see how they grow, and feed. Your ph is not ideal, but it is not going to be a deal breaker. You have bigger fish to fry.
Get that filtration squared away fast, Minimal feed right now. Your tilapia are feeding this very minute on that green water,and that greenwater is filtering waste. Once you start feeding them enough feed to make them grow, your water quality will suffer. So stick with minimal feed for a couple weeks, then gradually increase your ration.

That's about what I been doing, I been feeding them very little hoping that they will eat the algae. My pumps didn't come and I will have to re order different ones but I got my 8000 GPH sump pump going and it's pouring a steady stream into the pool.

I also added a half a dozen feeder goldfish with the canary in a coal mine theory in mind figuring that they will be the first to die if ammonia or nitrogen levels get too high but I forgot about temperature. The pool is in the back yard in nearly full sun and it's going to be a lot hotter so that might also be too hot for goldfish there.

After I made my last post I was wondering if maybe the algae is going to buffer the PH back up too. Everything I am reading is saying don't mess with the PH unless I suspected it is killing fish. My plan is to add some baking soda to some of my tap water and see if it changes the PH darker or if it stays the same. I am also going to keep my eyes open for a more alkaline test kit but adding baking soda and testing the water will let me know if I need one.

Since my new pump wont be here for a week I'm going to run the biofilters off the big sump pump and wait and see if I need an adapter when they get here. I still wont be able to start on them till Thursday. I'm also going to hold off on the water change since my test kit says everything else but PH is good.

I added salt yesterday and I noticed my fish all went down to the bottom as soon as I put the salt in and they seem to stay down there a lot more. They also seem to swim a lot more in sync with each other. They still come by and beg for food as soon as they see anyone come to the pool.


Since my water is a little cloudy but it's not nitrates I'm thinking it might be better to keep adding nirtogen to the pond instead of feeding the fish. My problem isn't nitrogen at all according to my test kit. That makes me think it's just an excess of bad bacteria overfeedubg and that fertilizing the pond will help good bacteria and more algae get established and contribute to the pond clearing up.

What I did was put 1.5 tsp of Mircale grow for tomatoes in my little 30 gallon goldfish pond. If I don't see any negative signs I'm going to do it again daily for a day or two and then observe if the pond stays clear or gets cloudy. I am also not going to feed the fish during the beginning of is period and gradually increase the food supply till the water gets cloudy and see if they can take more food or less food by adding the fertilizer. I just want to see it's effects on algae growth in an older pond and if it makes the water clearer or cloudier. In the future I will try and get the right kind of nitrogen to add. I'm only using miracle gro for test purposes.
I found this just now.
Quote:
I spent a pleasant career in fish farming, and usually, at least in the northern temperate climates, potassium is the limiting factor for algae growth in ponds, algae is the basis of the food chain for the rest of the pond environment. In tropical climates, the first limiting factor is usually nitrogen. So when I was working in the Niger Delta with the mangrove tidal ponds, we'd dump a sack of urea into the ponds on a weekly basis. Turned the pond bright green in a matter of hours. It was hot, too, which helped. Those were big ponds. There was a urea factory within 50 miles and it was subsidized. They use natural gas to make urea, and in Nigera, they flare the stuff off, they have so much.
Elsewhere, we used manure from chickens or ducks or pigs or all three. That mammalian / avian classic combo that is the basic incubator of all things nasty and viral. But I didn't know that then-:-)>.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rmgard/msg041653011227.html
Where do you get urea anymore?
Try a local farm fertilizer store. I believe Urea is 50-0-0
Originally Posted By: surfsteve

That's about what I been doing, I been feeding them very little hoping that they will eat the algae. My pumps didn't come and I will have to re order different ones but I got my 8000 GPH sump pump going and it's pouring a steady stream into the pool.

I also added a half a dozen feeder goldfish with the canary in a coal mine theory in mind figuring that they will be the first to die if ammonia or nitrogen levels get too high but I forgot about temperature. The pool is in the back yard in nearly full sun and it's going to be a lot hotter so that might also be too hot for goldfish there.

After I made my last post I was wondering if maybe the algae is going to buffer the PH back up too. Everything I am reading is saying don't mess with the PH unless I suspected it is killing fish. My plan is to add some baking soda to some of my tap water and see if it changes the PH darker or if it stays the same. I am also going to keep my eyes open for a more alkaline test kit but adding baking soda and testing the water will let me know if I need one.

Since my new pump wont be here for a week I'm going to run the biofilters off the big sump pump and wait and see if I need an adapter when they get here. I still wont be able to start on them till Thursday. I'm also going to hold off on the water change since my test kit says everything else but PH is good.

I added salt yesterday and I noticed my fish all went down to the bottom as soon as I put the salt in and they seem to stay down there a lot more. They also seem to swim a lot more in sync with each other. They still come by and beg for food as soon as they see anyone come to the pool.


surfsteve, I like your theory of "canaries in a coal mine with goldfish". Does it work(anybody else know either)??
I am wondering if the talapia will wind up eating the goldfish. I noticed a bigger one chasing one today. Also since I been running the pump my water is clearing up. I'm going to call the feed store and see if they have urea. Otherwise I will get some ammonium sulfate and put a teaspoon in a gallon of pond water and do an ammonia test to see where to go from there. I am running low in miracle grow and if anything it seems to be clearing the ponds up. I just went out and checked the pond and there is a half eaten goldfish. Also the water looks greener but the cloudiness is all gone so I'm going to feed them a little more. I think it's the pump circulating the water that is clearing it up. Can water get too much circulation? My sump pump is 1200 watts and pumps 8000 gallons an hour and I only have 2000 gallons in the pool. I hope I can afford my electric bill till my smaller 300 watt pump gets here. Looks like I can delay the water change but I am concerned about the goldfish. The miners are hungry and they are eating the canaries! I'm going to go feed those critters a little and see if we can strike a happy medium.
I didn't take any chances and did my 2/3 water change on both the talapia and my goldfish because my ammonia levels were high in the goldfish pond and choosing to error on the safe side in the big tank. I also read that PH isn't a problem with talapia and that they anything between 6 and 9 is good and they can survive to a ph of 10.

Here is the link
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ngXcn24S-IUJ:www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/education/ras/publications/species/283fsTilapia%2520life%2520history.pdf+ph+range+of+talapia&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj592TrfA0wsI9urfjJoo844IaS952fMXyf6ZqrbkjTzOxooB-9xO1HG3zxa83ZOJ995M85BUr9bztHFX1SMeVjvZJYKZrxrZW4qGQIyPi4CfbS6mhV7ABtJbgkfl1eG8R3EYYS&sig=AHIEtbSsoM37M2aNhVMS0EgQkma-Ew5R8w
Keep in mind Steve you are at a disadvantage with higher PH and temperatures. That is, it won't take much for your unionized ammonia to reach a lethal level.

I still say you're making a big mistake rushing this without having your biofilter cycle first, and a good clarifier set up, but I'm wishing you the best.
Surfsteve,

Like Cecil said with respect to the ammonia. you will have ammonia problems. Frequent water changes prolong the time needed to "cycle" your BOW's. This is all moot now since you have fish swimming.

I don't know about the goldfish, but the tilapia will do fairly well with once cycled with occasional water changes and zero filtration IF you allow the algae to flourish....You will have a "green water" system. Your algae will become both food and bio-filtration. HEAVY aeration is required for this to keep the fish waste in suspension and degrading rapidly. Tilapia will generally top out at 3/4 pounds if allowed to spawn with this system.

There is NO question using a quality bio-filter and something to remove solid wastes will vastly increase water quality, stocking density, growth rates....everything.
I finished my biofilters today. I took pictures while I was building them and they are uploading now. I also did another 2/3 water change. I hope I did these right and they work correctly. I used the Blue barrels because they were available locally and you guys convinced me the algae would be beneficial to them.

First Picture I cut the hole in what was the bottom and is now the top of my biofilter.



Then I wired up some baskets I found at the dollar store


And my 3/4 in pipe like this. The whole gizmo goes in the drum.


Then I made my outspouts out of 2 inch pipe and cut the holes. Didn't glue them in yet


Then I unrolled my deer netting and wadded it up into the barrel.



I cut a hole in the part I removed and used it to hold down the net


and I ziptied the spout in place and plumbers gooped it


Then I added the bottom drain. A 2 inch male adapter threaded perfectly in place of one of the drum openings. I gooped it just for luck and reduced down to a 1-1/4 inch drain valve. These were set 3 high on blocks next to the pool


Here it is up and running. The 3000 GPH 1/6 HP sump pump is at the T in the pool but I want to relocate it at the deep end. I just ran out of glue and parts but I got it working!


Now if I can only get all these pictures to post!
I also plan to add a check valve. Right now if I shut off the pump it will drain the tanks through it. This will be great for flushing the top when I want to drain the sediments out of the bottom. But it will kill all the microbes in my filter if the pump goes out for more than a few hours. The check valve will keep the water from draining out the tanks if that happens and then of course I will have to add a bypass for the check valve if I want to drain the top portion of the filters.
Hey Steve,

As someone said earlier, you sure are a wild man.

One question that no one asked is: How many fish do you think you can culture in this system?

Look's impressive to the naked eye!


Probably a lot. The greewater article I read said that 7000 pounds could be grown in a 50 foot diameter pool yielding the same results as an acre of lake. That would compute to about 600 pounds for my size pool. Not sure if that's per year or per cycle. Probably the same thing. I want to raise big fish so I will probably stick with half that number if I get to that point.

I filled some gallon jugs of water coming out of the filter and water from the bypass and the water is a shade or 2 lighter coming out of the filter. At first I couldn't believe my eyes. I even did it twice and switched the jugs around and the water is coming out clean enough to notice from just one pass. Also the filters are caked with debris. I even noticed that last night. If I stir up the top of the filter the water will come out muddy for a few seconds as it exits the filter. I am really surprised at how much dirt these things sucked up. Very little or nothing came out when I opened the bottom settling valves to check them though.
Looks good, this is going to be a fun project to follow.
So once this thing gets going all I have to do is take half my filters over to another pond and it should be a lot easier to get the next "pond" going. I'm still a long ways to achieving homeostasis but at least now I'm headed in the right direction.

I drained the pool down last night to 500 gallons and topped it to 1000. I'm adding another 1000 today. Let's see how long I can keep it before I need a water change. I should be able to go longer and longer.

As soon as I can afford I plan to haul three more drums on top my car back home. I want to build one more for goldfish and add the other two to the pool. I also plan to build some sort of aeriation ring to keep all the poop in the pool stirred up into the sump pump.

One thing that looks really cool is I have all my discharge from the filters and my bypass so that it causes the pool to flow in a circle. The 4x4 sheet of plywood I put in for shade has gone to the center of the pool and it now rotates in a circle. It would really be cool to have the pump in the middle and dig out the middle of the pool so it is deeper. Then make an aeration ring on the bottom of the pool around the sump to keep everything stirred up. I think I still will do that only I will put the whole thing off center towards the deeper end of the pool.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
I also plan to add a check valve. Right now if I shut off the pump it will drain the tanks through it. This will be great for flushing the top when I want to drain the sediments out of the bottom. But it will kill all the microbes in my filter if the pump goes out for more than a few hours. The check valve will keep the water from draining out the tanks if that happens and then of course I will have to add a bypass for the check valve if I want to drain the top portion of the filters.


Instead of a check valve you could drill a small hole in the feed line of the first barrel just above the water line. If the pump turns off this small hole will allow air into the line stopping the siphon.


Is that commonly done? What size hole would be needed to break an inch and a half line? I was thinking that the check valve was going to be overkill unless I planned on being away. I have regulator valves going to each filter that I could shut off if there is a problem and I could always fill the barrels back up with a hose or bucket if it accidentally gets drained due to pump failure. If it is an electric outage I will know right away. I can run out and close the regulators in plenty of time. But why take the risk if all that is needed is a simple drill hole... as long as I don't have to bypass too much water for it.


My filters seem to be holding their own. Do you guys think three filters will be plenty? I would still like to add two more for good measure. The water looks pretty much the same color as yesterday. The Ammonia is 1 ppm. I also think I did the test wrong the first time I did it and got a false low reading. I wish I had done one yesterday. I think not feeding the fish is the best thing I can do till it goes down. I put some catfood in the blender and finely powdered it. Now I can give them a small pinch and it entertains them (and me) for a good 5 or 10 minutes. The same amount even crushed up is gone in five seconds.
A 1/4 inch hole will be plenty for a siphon break.
Your filters are not holding their own. They are barely started. In a couple weeks your filters will start to keep up with the ammonia, and nitrite will spike off the charts. Then in another three weeks or so the bacteria that work on nitrite will start to catch up with the nitrite. Meanwhile you should be doing large water changes daily to keep both levels sub lethal. Your fish will be fairly stressed during this time period. Take you salt levels up quite a bit to help counteract the nitrite poisoning.
I would not expect the filters themselves to handle the waste from much more than 100 pounds of fish but with the additional help of greenwater, you might be able to handle more. If you are raising 300 pounds of fish your system is going to need to process 6+ pounds of feed per day. That is not going to be an easy feat for your drum filters. So adding more would be a good idea, but you might want to alter the design, and make a couple into trickle filters so the nitrifying bacteria is exposed to more O2. This will be more efficient. Or better yet, use the outflow from your existing drum filters to spin some RBC's.
I kid you not, you are in for daily water changes for a month. If you had done a fishless cycle, you would have conserved quite a bit of water, not stressed your fish, and would have sped up the cycle. If I were you, I would put your existing Tilapia in the freezer, do a fishless cycle, and order new fish in a couple weeks. But what do I know?

True, definitly not an ideal situation as many have stated. Is there any one near by with an established hydroponics system that you could borrow or trade some filter media with? I would think if you could get a gallon of media from even an aquarium sump it might put you a little bit ahead of the game.

Also remember that fish can go long periods without eating. I wouldn't bother unless they got really aggressive and smaller fish started to dissappear.

Yuk! I just ran an ammonia test on my tap water and I can hardly tell the difference between the tap water and the water in my pool!
Will be interested to see how this works, as I wanted to try something like this as well.

Keep us posted on how this goes.

Thanks
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
I also plan to build some sort of aeriation ring to keep all the poop in the pool stirred up into the sump pump.


I have read some guys have used a soaker hose as a diffuser. Maybe someone who has tried this will chime in on on how well they work. It might work out really well in a fairly shallow tank.
Calling AP!
The number of filters depends on the max pounds of fish and the surface area of the media in the clarifier. I sized my filter using the following information from the SRAC article I post earlier:

10 grams/100 pounds of fish/day
Ammonia removal rates may range from 0.02 to 0.10 grams/ft2 of biofilter surface area/day

Assume the worst case scenario of .02 grams and then use 1 lbs of fish per 2 gallon of water in the tank to be on the safe side.

(lbs of fish / 100) *10 = bioload in grams

then

Bioload/.02 = ft2 of surface area required

ie 2500/100*10=250 g ammonia
250/.02=12,500 ft2 of surface area

So you would need 12,500 ft2 of media. Media is usually rated by surface area per ft3. Sand is 7800ft2 per ft3, lava rock is 16 ft2 per ft3, I have no idea what Deer netting would be.

55 gallon drum can hold 7.35 cubic feet of media when full.


A soaker hose sounds like a good idea. I was planning on using a regular hose and poking some holes in it.

Actually the reason I put that long piece of pipe in the pool was because I was planning on poking some holes in it so that it would act as an aerator but I think I'm going to use all the excess water from the pump to run a few more barrel filters instead.

I really don't need any aeration right now because the water coming out of the barrels is doing a better job than any air pump could do. But it still would be nice to have bubbles coming up from the bottom because they would stir things up much better. Especially when I start filling the pool up all the way.

I did an ammonia test and the filters are definitely doing something. I am sure I would have had to change water by now if I didn't have them. I think I will add some aeration inside at least some of the barrels but not until I get more microbes growing on the nets. Right now I think the bubbles would work against me because the would be knocking all the debris off the deer nets inside the filters. I think I need to give the microbes a chance to attach themselves to the net before I go blowing them around with bubbles.

My biggest concern right now is temperature. All of the aeration is keeping the water much cooler than I expected. This is fine right now but I realize I haven't got a chance of keeping these guys alive over the winter unless I take them in or build a greenhouse over them. If I'm going to successfully raise Talapia I'm going to have to breed them indoors over the winter and have all of my fry ready to be put outside in late February.

I am looking into other species. It looks like the water is too alkaline for catfish. At least for breeding them. But crawdads or prawns look promising.

It's going to be a battle just to keep the water from killing these guys but I'm glad I did it the way I did. In all honesty if I hadn't rushed in and done it now I would have been doing all this next year and maybe I would have never gotten around to doing it.

Ready Fire Aim.

I have lived my life by that principal and it has done me well... so far.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
I did an ammonia test and the filters are definitely doing something.

...... I realize I haven't got a chance of keeping these guys alive over the winter unless I take them in or build a greenhouse over them.


The Algae is likely doing more than the barrels at this point. Maybe the barrels are getting solids and dead algae out of the water so more algae can grow, but this early in the tank setup the plants are doing the heavy lifting. In fact you might want to put some potted plants in the top of your filters.

Check out the RAS book cecil recommended. they have some dome structures that might help. What are your lowest lows? smile

I will check that book out if it ever gets here...

Actually I was thinking about building some of my filters and using sphagnum peat moss instead of a deer net as filtration media. It would add nitrogen to the water and also acidify my 9.0 PH. It would also be cheaper too. Those deer nets are 20 "buck"s a piece! I could save some "doe". Maybe it would be smart to make bags out of the deer net and put the peat moss inside them. I'm not sure at this point but it seems like a good idea. Who knows. Maybe I can even get the PH down enough to raise catfish.
I don't know if the peat moss will have enough open areas in it to allow for good water flow. Good thinking tho. Let us know if you try it and what your results are.
I am thinking what I need to do is put the peat moss in a screen tray above the pool and spray it. It's the only thing I could think of that I can afford to do right now on my budget. So far all they sell in town is the ground up stuff.
If you use the ground up peat you could try to make a fluidized bed with it. Basically you need a pump strong enough to keep the peat (smaller the better) suspended in the water column (in the 55gal barrel) and make the return high enough for gravity to keep the peat from flowing out of the barrel.

I have never tried it but it could be a cheap experiment for you.
I think peat could be added to bring down Ph, and would work in say a bucket with water trickling through it, and draining out the bottom, but trying to use it as an actual filter media is just a bad idea. Too unstable, will degrade, and break apart, and become a maintenance nightmare. Maybe fill a 55 with it and very slowly trickle water through. Plan on changing it often. Again it is just a bad idea. Use muriatic acid to lower the Ph instead
Originally Posted By: Bender

So you would need 12,500 ft2 of media. Media is usually rated by surface area per ft3. Sand is 7800ft2 per ft3, lava rock is 16 ft2 per ft3, I have no idea what Deer netting would be.

55 gallon drum can hold 7.35 cubic feet of media when full.


A 7ft x 100ft roll of deer netting has approximately 200 square feet of surface area, give or take, depending on brand.

Another option for this type of filter is pvc ribbon. It is approx. 250 sq ft/cu ft.
I'm not sure how you are figuring that. 7 x 100 means the deer net is a 700 sq ft net. Unless you are counting the surface area of the actual thread of the netting. Then I would figure it would be much less. All I know is that I am very surprised how well they are working already. It's almost like the net holds a charge and particles are attracted to it. I can only imagine how good these things are going to work once they actually get microbes growing on them.

I checked my ammonia again and it's not climbing. My goldfish pools are very high but the ammonia actually lowered it's self in the one I put the fertilizer in. The other pair had a dead bird in the bottom pool this morning and is cloudy. Even though there is no filter in the little pond it is 2 years old and is probably the reason my new pools are doing so well. I took all the water and anything that was on the bottom and used it to start my other two goldfish pools and all three to start my newest one.

I got all the stuff except the netting yesterday to make three more drum filters. Home Depot was out of the good cheap netting so I ordered them from the internet off Amazon with free two day shipping. It's going to be great having a filter on the goldfish!
Yep. 7' x 100' = 700'. Minus the air space between the strands is how you figure the filter area.

Think of it this way. You could have a rectangle that is 7'x 1,000' but it is only made of a thin strand of wire around the perimiter. Would you count all the empty space inside that rectangle as filter area?

That's why filter media is small strands woven together with air space between them, in 1/2" thick or so mats. More surface area per square inch for the microbes and bacteria to colonize.

Sand has a huge amount of surface area, but only if it's fluidized. If it's packed together tightly, just figure on the square foot area that the perimeter covers.
Originally Posted By: brier
I think peat could be added to bring down Ph, and would work in say a bucket with water trickling through it, and draining out the bottom, but trying to use it as an actual filter media is just a bad idea. Too unstable, will degrade, and break apart, and become a maintenance nightmare. Maybe fill a 55 with it and very slowly trickle water through. Plan on changing it often. Again it is just a bad idea. Use muriatic acid to lower the Ph instead


Everything I read about using acid to lower pH seemed like a bad idea. When I experiment in buckets my water looks like soda pop by the time I get a normal pH. I'm not going to mess with pH on my talapia but I am interested to see if I could lower the PH enough to raise catfish. Maybe I will set up a kiddie pool and do some experimenting.

I agree that the peat will have to be use in baskets or trays above or away from the pool and water sprinkled over it. Otherwise it will just rot.

I just thought of something. Kitty litter is made of clay and I think it has a low PH. I will try and remember to buy a bag of the cheap stuff to test it out next time I go to walmart. When I just researched it some people say it makes the water acid and some say it doesn't and depends on the brand. One guy bought a product from walmart automotive that he claimed made the water so acid it killed his fish but I suspect it may have contained some kind of additive.


As far as I know I am the only one for at least 100 miles raising fish. But I got a feeling some of my neighbors are going to start doing it. It has also lowered the temperature in the area significantly and is becoming my favorite hang out spot. Dragon flies regularly visit the pool and bats come by at sunset and sunrise. They fly all over the area and dive bomb the pool. Zeroscape is the norm out here but I am going for the oasis theme... even though it's not PC... OK maybe BECAUSE it's not PC!
Originally Posted By: esshup
Yep. 7' x 100' = 700'. Minus the air space between the strands is how you figure the filter area.

Think of it this way. You could have a rectangle that is 7'x 1,000' but it is only made of a thin strand of wire around the perimiter. Would you count all the empty space inside that rectangle as filter area?

That's why filter media is small strands woven together with air space between them, in 1/2" thick or so mats. More surface area per square inch for the microbes and bacteria to colonize.

Sand has a huge amount of surface area, but only if it's fluidized. If it's packed together tightly, just figure on the square foot area that the perimeter covers.


The deer net is merely serving as an anchor. Already my nets are caked and have probably expanded the surface area by a dozen times. By the time they are fully grown with microbes there will be hundreds of times the original surface area of the deer net.
Hey Steve,

If I may ask. What is caking up your filters already? Is it fish poo, cat food, fish food... What?

Also, have you ever heard of Heterotropic, Isotropic, and Anaerobic bacteria?

You are going to have to deal with TDS (Total Dissolved Solids), which most forget about. This is greatly enhanced when you churn up the suspended solids, keep them in suspension, beat them up, and they break down to particles so small that they are easily dissolved in water. Hefty price tag to avoid this, without building it properly in the first place. Not to mention a bunch of other junk.

I may be out of the loop, but what specific microbes are you talking about to colonize your filters?

Anyway, This has been a fun thread to follow, and probably great fun for you, being a Fire, Aim, Ready kinda guy.

Best Wishes!
I don't know. Fish poop and algae? Maybe I should take a picture of it. I can see the net and just below the waterline there is about an eight of an inch of "stuff" on each of the fine netting threads. If I shake the net it all falls off. It doesn't seem to be random junk either because it's a hair like structure that is uniform. It could just be flow from the filter but it almost seems as if it's being held on by some kind of static electricity.

I have the water swirling counter clockwise in the pool and clockwise in all the barrels. Could it be building up some kind of a charge? I will see if I can get a picture of it so you can see what I mean. This stuff started collecting on the net by the next morning whatever it is.

Here is a picture of my filter nets.



They look quite a bit different than yesterday. Now when I pick up the net as you can see some of the stuff stays attached to it. It has also turned bright green. I put a couple tablespoons of Miracle Gro in last night. I bought some ammonium sulfate and only put in one tablespoon today because it has a lot more ammonia than miracle gro did but I'm going to give it a try. I noticed the pond was turning kind of a brownish green yesterday before I fertilized it. I hadn't added any since I added the fish. My ammonia was still well below 1 ppm before I added the ammonium sulfate. I will test tomorrow and see if it climbs.
Here's the shot I took this morning of the water coming out of one of the filters.

Yep looks like algae. Steve, what you are doing will work, but keep in mind that your filters are not exactly designed for intensive management. If you are just planning on feeding your family, what you have should work fine. The greenwater is a big plus for you. But if you want to get into the 2 pounds of fish per cubic foot range, you will really need to beef it up. I think you could use the outflow from those filters to turn an RBC, and you could really jump up your carrying capacity.

I would be afraid to depend upon water power to turn one of those rotating gizmos. Just about anything would stop one from rotating and once it does it will dry out and never turn. Besides I would be wasting valuable oxygenation power to turn a wheel. What about using an old bar-b-q spit motor to turn one?

I got my three additional filters ready to go. I am just waiting on deer mesh. I think I'm going to redesign the base and make the water come in under the bottom crates instead of on top of them. Then I wont even need the white top baskets. It will mean taking them apart but I think it will be worth it before I put in the deer netting.
Ever think about using duckweed in a biofilter? If resting at the top it could suck up some of the nutrients in the filter, but then also be turned into food for the tilapia. At the rate it grows, I would think it would alleviate some of the problem, at least.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve

I would be afraid to depend upon water power to turn one of those rotating gizmos. Just about anything would stop one from rotating and once it does it will dry out and never turn. Besides I would be wasting valuable oxygenation power to turn a wheel. What about using an old bar-b-q spit motor to turn one?

I got my three additional filters ready to go. I am just waiting on deer mesh. I think I'm going to redesign the base and make the water come in under the bottom crates instead of on top of them. Then I wont even need the white top baskets. It will mean taking them apart but I think it will be worth it before I put in the deer netting.


I beg to differ about "wasting" oxygenation power. Using that flow to turn an RBC would INCREASE all gas transfers.

I also wonder what makes you think an RBC is easy to stop. Rock solid reliability and capacity is what makes them the single most common filter used in "old school" (read; reliable)densly stocked aquacultuce systems.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve

I would be afraid to depend upon water power to turn one of those rotating gizmos. Just about anything would stop one from rotating and once it does it will dry out and never turn.


Originally Posted By: Rainman
I beg to differ about "wasting" oxygenation power. Using that flow to turn an RBC would INCREASE all gas transfers.

I also wonder what makes you think an RBC is easy to stop. Rock solid reliability and capacity is what makes them the single most common filter used in "old school" (read; reliable)densly stocked aquacultuce systems.


Rainman is right. RBC's are actually quite reliable. My axle which is PVC inside PVC and under water, has no danger of it not moving again once it stops. I can assure you there is virtually no friction and it creates flow and oxygenation as it turns.

As far as the plates drying out, in a worst case scenario less than half of the plates would dry out, but if you're worth your salt as a RAS operator you are constantly on guard for power outages and wouldn't let that happen. The big commerical systems have alarms and automatic back up.

Just like NASA you need a back up for everything, regardless of what kind of system you use as you really are dealing with an artificial life support system. I have a spare for all my pumps just in case.

I presently have battery operated pump to take over my clarifier pump that also turns my RBC if I have a power outage. (Only one small 60 watt pump to power the whole system for about $4.00 per month in utilities.) I will in the future get a back up system that will automatically covert my 110 volt pump to a 12 volt DC for up to 12 hours on just one battery. If I put two in a series I can run twice as long and so on.
Have to agree, the bubbling you see as your water trickles into the tank is nothing. Spatter that water against an RBC, and you increase the water to air contact, and add O2. Also the constant rotation of the RBC itself, picking up a thin layer of water, exposing it to air, and re depositing it in the tank, does way more than that little bit of bubbling you see. People always think of aeration the wrong way. For instance, an air stone itself adds little O2 to the water, it is the constant upcurrent that it causes that adds O2. Water to air contact.

Do any of you guys have any details on the media being used in RBC's? I still haven't got that book I ordered.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve

Do any of you guys have any details on the media being used in RBC's? I still haven't got that book I ordered.



Page three of this thread third post down. No media just fiberglass roofing cut into circles. In between that is polystyrence plastic cut into circles. The roofing will cost you about $200.00 but the plastic is much cheaper. You also need closed cell foam (the pink stuff in the picture) for flotation.

I was considering making my next one of plastic media packed into a plastic cage mesh cylinder, as i have lots of extra plastic media I used in a packed column, but VanGorder warned me not to. He said it's been done and eventually the drag gets to much and things fall apart including a motor burn out if you use a motor. He says the plates are the way to go as far as he's concerned. He's done a lot of pioneering research and builds large commericial systems so I have a lot of faith in him. The RBC i use in the picture and from the book Small Scale Aquaculture was used in Biosphere II in Arizona. If you don't know anything about that project look it up on the Internet.

Who did you order the book from? I can't imagine why it's taking so long if you ordered it from Amazon.com.
So did you use the $200.00 roofing with yours, how much did you have in it altogether?
Not to get off topic, but since we are talking RBC's are the aquarium Biowheel filters the same concept, I was considering one of them for our tank to possibly reduce water exchanges and other stuff.

If so does anyone have recommendations?

Thanks
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Not to get off topic, but since we are talking RBC's are the aquarium Biowheel filters the same concept, I was considering one of them for our tank to possibly reduce water exchanges and other stuff.

If so does anyone have recommendations?

Thanks


I think so although I have never had an aquarium. I plan to have one soon built into the wall of my taxidermy studio. I plan on building a smaller version of the RBC using a plastic spool as the main frame. I will use the same clarifier though probably down scaled a little.
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
So did you use the $200.00 roofing with yours, how much did you have in it altogether?


Yes I did use the cheapest fiberglass roofing material i could find from Menards which came to about $200.00 if I remember right. That was 10 sheets with five 24 inch circles cut out of each sheet.

If I build another one I will check out a building surplus store I remember passing about 30 miles from here and see if I can save some buying used ones.

The most expensive thing was the fiberglass roofing. Then there were the polystyrene sheets at about $50.00. After that maybe about $40.00 worth of PVC maximum -- along with glue. I had some sizes already laying around it probably wasn't $40.00. I went through 6 or 8 sabre saw blades cutting the fiberglass. I would strongly recommend a band saw if possible.

The pump however was about $70.00 and the agitator about $100.00. I could have gotten by without the agitator for a few months as there was plenty of oxygen produced by the water splashing into the baffles and the RBC rotating.
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Not to get off topic, but since we are talking RBC's are the aquarium Biowheel filters the same concept, I was considering one of them for our tank to possibly reduce water exchanges and other stuff.

If so does anyone have recommendations?

Thanks


Same concept, I had one on my aquarium years ago. It worked really well.

I also built a mini RBC from a pleated canister filter. I believe it was 10" diameter x 20" long. I made some hubs, mounted it on a 1/2" shaft with nylon bearings and rotated it with a synchronous gear motor. It worked really well, just need to keep them out of any light. Surface area was really high. I can't remember what it was.
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1

I was considering making my next one of plastic media packed into a plastic cage mesh cylinder, as i have lots of extra plastic media I used in a packed column, but VanGorder warned me not to. He said it's been done and eventually the drag gets to much and things fall apart including a motor burn out if you use a motor.


I was going to try that one except with plastic beads, then I thought bio-balls. I could not convince myself it would work. Now I have a bunch of plastic beads and bio-balls that I have been sitting on for the past 10 years blush

There is a surplus place near the Indiana/Michigan border. We went there a couple weeks ago to get some steel tube for a project. Prices were reasonable, but they did not have the lengths we needed. They have all kinds of stuff there. I saw a bunch of fiberglass in one of the buildings.
Originally Posted By: JKB
There is a surplus place near the Indiana/Michigan border.


JKB:

Where is the place at? I occasionally need stuff like that for projects and it would sure beat buying new stuff. Is it the place that's South of Constantine on 131?
Originally Posted By: esshup
Originally Posted By: JKB
There is a surplus place near the Indiana/Michigan border.


JKB:

Where is the place at? I occasionally need stuff like that for projects and it would sure beat buying new stuff. Is it the place that's South of Constantine on 131?


Ditto.

The one I was thinking of was farther east just east of 1-69 south of Angola.
Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1

I was considering making my next one of plastic media packed into a plastic cage mesh cylinder, as i have lots of extra plastic media I used in a packed column, but VanGorder warned me not to. He said it's been done and eventually the drag gets to much and things fall apart including a motor burn out if you use a motor.


I was going to try that one except with plastic beads, then I thought bio-balls. I could not convince myself it would work. Now I have a bunch of plastic beads and bio-balls that I have been sitting on for the past 10 years blush


JKB,

I know I posted this on the Aquaponics site but I thought I would add it here for the benefit of others. It's basically a response to my email about building an RBC made of media vs. the plates: (From Steven VanGorder author of the book Small Scale Aquaculture).

What you are considering has been tried often in the past. In fact, a drum filled with high-surface area material was designed back in the 60's for the sewage treatment industry. And Dr. Timmons from Cornell, and Losordo from NC State built an rbc from spools of plastic material banded together. Lots of surface area, but all of these designs had one problem. They greatly increased the drag through the water. It was completely impossible to rotate the units using a waterwheel ... just too much resistence. And in every case that I'm aware of, the mechanical problems quickly developed. The gears on the motors stripped, the pillow blocks wore out, and finally, whatever methods were used to bind or enclose the media always failed.

This is similar to what happened when we were first developing the small rbc's. We didn't like to have to waste the fiberglass by cutting the plates into circles, so we built units with square plates. Of course, we tried rotating them without a motor but had to go back to it, but we ended up with a pretty nice design. But within a single season, the units just deteriorated.

Sorry. Hope this helps.

I thought you might enjoy a medley of photos showing much of this evolution of design that we went through. Unfortunately, the failures by Virginia Tech, Cornell and NC State left them all with the idea that the rbc's just weren't appropriate for commercial aquaculture. And I've had a difficult time trying to convince them and others that they are. And as you can see in the photos, we certainly had the chance to test them at an industrial-scale.

Steve

Originally Posted By: esshup
Originally Posted By: JKB
There is a surplus place near the Indiana/Michigan border.


JKB:

Where is the place at? I occasionally need stuff like that for projects and it would sure beat buying new stuff. Is it the place that's South of Constantine on 131?


I think so. I'll find out for sure tomorrow. I was the passenger so I wasn't paying attention. They got all kinds of stuff there. Looks like they get a lot of their surplus from RV/Camper manufactures. All the steel we looked at was new, just some of it was a bit rusty. The prices were about 55%-60% of new. Tons of trailer axles and springs. You could probably build a nice camper, complete with fireplace with all the stuff around.
Anyone have any experience with this small bio-wheel filter?, I've been thinking about getting one for my 40 gal. tank that the PS fry will be transferred into.

http://www.aquariumguys.com/emperorpower.html
Cecil,
Thanks for posting the reply from SVG,

The main issue I had with that design was, it would be nearly impossible to achieve any sort of dynamic balance. And if it became lopsided for some reason things would start to fail. Now, this could be over come with BIGGER motors, gears, bearings etc... but economically, it would be a dud.

I have a new RBC I am designing for my 400 gallon bait fish system. Right now it is 15.75" in diameter and 13" wide. Theoretically, the SSA (Specific Surface Area) is 1280 sq ft. The goal is an SSA of 2000 sq ft or more. We shall see if that happens. Pretty easy to build, and pretty easy to add more sections. It will weigh about 22 lbs (304SS construction) and will be rotated with a small gear motor. One idea I am thinking of is using a power head to create the rotation. I could try that.
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Not to get off topic, but since we are talking RBC's are the aquarium Biowheel filters the same concept, I was considering one of them for our tank to possibly reduce water exchanges and other stuff.

If so does anyone have recommendations?

Thanks


Bio-Wheels by Marineland are some of the best RBC's money can buy. The materials used not only provide surface area, but also allow for dead bacterial films to slough off. Marineland has a commercial division that can provide you a Bio-Wheel that never needs replacement and can handle any load you wish to control, but they are very expensive.
Originally Posted By: adirondack pond
Anyone have any experience with this small bio-wheel filter?, I've been thinking about getting one for my 40 gal. tank that the PS fry will be transferred into.

http://www.aquariumguys.com/emperorpower.html


I had a 330 on my aquarium, and it worked really well. I kept several hundred various bait fish in it at the time without any problems. That is of course after it was cycled.
Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: adirondack pond
Anyone have any experience with this small bio-wheel filter?, I've been thinking about getting one for my 40 gal. tank that the PS fry will be transferred into.

http://www.aquariumguys.com/emperorpower.html


I had a 330 on my aquarium, and it worked really well. I kept several hundred various bait fish in it at the time without any problems. That is of course after it was cycled.


Thanks for the info, I'd like to get one soon so the tank will be ready when I need it. Their in a 10 gal. tank now and that's good for awhile.
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: esshup
Originally Posted By: JKB
There is a surplus place near the Indiana/Michigan border.


JKB:

Where is the place at? I occasionally need stuff like that for projects and it would sure beat buying new stuff. Is it the place that's South of Constantine on 131?


Ditto.

The one I was thinking of was farther east just east of 1-69 south of Angola.


The place is Johnson Surplus.

It is on 12, just west of 131 in White Pigeon.

So that must be the place esshup was thinking of.
Originally Posted By: adirondack pond
Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: adirondack pond
Anyone have any experience with this small bio-wheel filter?, I've been thinking about getting one for my 40 gal. tank that the PS fry will be transferred into.

http://www.aquariumguys.com/emperorpower.html


I had a 330 on my aquarium, and it worked really well. I kept several hundred various bait fish in it at the time without any problems. That is of course after it was cycled.


Thanks for the info, I'd like to get one soon so the tank will be ready when I need it. Their in a 10 gal. tank now and that's good for awhile.


I am going to get a couple for my 75 gallon tanks. I will have to do a bit of surgery on the tanks as the rim is 1.25" wide. I believe these will just fit over a 1/2" rim. Then, sandblast the inside and paint with a dark, non reflective epoxy. I may have to diffuse the out flow a bit to adjust currents, but that is easy enough to do.

I also have two 125 gallon aluminum tanks that are 10 ft long. I am going to segment these with removable slide gates for breeder tanks. I think I can retrofit one of their sump models or just use the wheel assemblies and rig up the rest.

I could just kick myself right now for getting rid of my 150 gallon and 700 gallon tanks.
I just bid on a Shopsmith bandsaw attachment on Ebay to attach to the wife's Mark V Shopsmith. There's only two bids including mine, and there is less than an hour left. If I get it it will be a fifth of the price of a brand new one and shipping isn't too bad.

Anyway I think I will probably build another RBC, and sure as heck won't do it this time without a band saw to cut the fiberglass plates! One cool feature of the Shopsmith bandsaw is an attachment that will allow me to cut perfect circles up to 36 inches in diameter. That will sure the heck beat wearing out a half a dozen sabre saw blades and vibrating the heck out of my hands!

With the drill press attachment the wife has already, I may be able to build these commercially if there is a demand! The whole thing including the frame could easily be shipped disassembled, although the 50 fiberglass plates aren't light. One thought would be to downsize the filter for growing out less than 100 lbs. of tilapia over the winter which would also make it more affordable.
Cecil, you better have extra band saw blades. Fiberglass eats them up just like jig saw blades. Once used on fiberglass, you won't want to use them on wood.....
Fiberglass is a bit abrasive. Carbide Grit blades would probably be the best. I always used Starrett or Morse bimetal blades. They hold up the best for me due to the varied materials we cut.

Cecil,
You could also get the roof panels in PVC. They are on sale right now at Menards for 10 bucks each for a 2ft x 8ft panel. That would cut the cost well in half from the fiberglass.

I would change the design a bit and put thin a flat panel between each roof panel to increase surface area. You really only need about a 3/8" gap and the roof panels easily provide that.

I think it would be a good idea to see if you could peddle a few.
Originally Posted By: adirondack pond
Anyone have any experience with this small bio-wheel filter?, I've been thinking about getting one for my 40 gal. tank that the PS fry will be transferred into.

http://www.aquariumguys.com/emperorpower.html




I think it may be made by Marineland along with this one as well from the same site:

http://www.aquariumguys.com/penguin350b.html

Maybe someone can recommend one over the other as they seem to be very similar but one has a better warranty and a little less money.

Thanks
Thanks
Here's the best price I've found on the 400 model.
http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl...l400powerfilter
Originally Posted By: esshup
Cecil, you better have extra band saw blades. Fiberglass eats them up just like jig saw blades. Once used on fiberglass, you won't want to use them on wood.....


That doesn't surprise me. It will still be better than using a sabre saw. I'll get some extra blades if I go with the fiberglass!
Originally Posted By: JKB
Fiberglass is a bit abrasive. Carbide Grit blades would probably be the best. I always used Starrett or Morse bimetal blades. They hold up the best for me due to the varied materials we cut.

Cecil,
You could also get the roof panels in PVC. They are on sale right now at Menards for 10 bucks each for a 2ft x 8ft panel. That would cut the cost well in half from the fiberglass.


I'll have to check that out. I can't imagine why the PVC wouldn't work. I assume it's corrugated?

Originally Posted By: JKB
I would change the design a bit and put thin a flat panel between each roof panel to increase surface area. You really only need about a 3/8" gap and the roof panels easily provide that.


I already do that. That's what the sheets of polystyrene plastic are for. They are light weight and cheap too. By adding the thin sheets vs. just the panels one goes from 300 square feet to 600 square feet.

Originally Posted By: JKB
I think it would be a good idea to see if you could peddle a few.


I may in the least bring one to the next Pond Boss convention silent auction to raise some money for the SDSU scholarship fun.
My book finally came two days ago and I been getting a chance to find out all the things I been doing wrong.

Also my pool is leaking and I've spent way more on water than I ever saved.

I was looking for the best pool for the money and this is the one I came up with. It's 4 inches shallower than ideal.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002ZVOXE6/ref=pd_luc_mri?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Is 32 inches going to be deep enough? I will probably only be able to fill it 24 without the fish jumping out. At 120 dollars including shipping this seems like the best pool for the money to raise fish in.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve


Is 32 inches going to be deep enough? I will probably only be able to fill it 24 without the fish jumping out. At 120 dollars including shipping this seems like the best pool for the money to raise fish in.


I think that is deep enough. My stock tanks are only 23 inches deep with the water coming up to the 19 1/4 inch mark.

If I had a fish species that I was afraid of jumping out, the deer netting could probably be stretched over the tank easily and fastened around the tank with a few bungee cords.

Somewhere in the AES catalog they cut short pieces of PVC pipe and and cut a slot into that piece. It acts as a spring loaded piece that fits over the net and the edge of the tank.
I've seen them make clamps out of PVC by cutting a slit in a short piece of pipe. They almost look like clothespins.

This morning I saw two fish swimming around in circles for a few seconds as if they were maybe interested in mating. I was thinking about throwing in some flower pots or something for them to nest in and hoping for the best. I also got 5 clarifiers running on the pool and one on the goldfish.

I am wondering if I build the domes over the pools like in the book if I will be able to squeak by and have fish outside all year long.
I just looked up our weather
http://www.desertusa.com/Cities/ca/trona.html
and compared it with the weather in the book
http://cityinfo.local.com/city-information/Kutztown-PA-weather
and we are a good deal warmer than Krutztown and the book was claiming a 9 month growing season with the domes. I'm thinking that if I do a good job on the domes I might be able to squeak by while keeping my fish out doors year around. I'll probably take some inside this winter just to be safe and see what happens with the rest.
I would think you would have a great shot of raising fish year round with domes. Not only are your days alot warmer but you have much more sunshine than PA. to carry you thru cool nights.
I sure hope so. Our clear skies might make it colder at night is my only other concern. It's worth a try. Thanks for the encouraging news. This is all turning out much better than I thought.

Also I just ordered one of those $120 pools. Tried to find a smaller pump but I got another 300 watt 3000 GPH pump. This time used for 40 bucks including shipping. The only other decent pump I could find was a 38 watt 350 gph pump for 28 dollars. I may try to order two of those to run the 12 foot pool but I thought I'd start out with too much pump and use the bypass for aeration till it gets cold and the fish slow down. Then switch to a smaller pumping system.

Here is a good website for small water pumps at really good prices.
http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4587+8164&pcatid=8164
Here is my first youtube video of me feeding my fish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhsijMTNXfc

I also found airstones for 33 cents each on amazon.com. The price for shipping 100 stones is only 6.49. I think that I can make a ring out of that black drip irrigation tubing and use the drip tool to make a hole and push them right in. At that price I can just plug new ones in the ring as the old ones clog up.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002AQHCS/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=A33WNC5RWNU3Z1
I do not know if this is appropriate to post, but a Fish Hatchery in Lima, OH is selling live fish and the PVC Ribbon Bio-Fill Material on ebay for really low prices. The PVC Ribbon would give one an SSA of about 1800 square feet in a 55 gallon drum. And, this stuff works pretty well in water applications >65F. The water needs to supply the O2 as with any submerged bio-filter, and as with any bio-filter, one needs a decent solids filter in front.

Search "Aquaculture".

This stuff will work much better than deer netting, and seriously cut your electric costs.
JKB,

Are the live fish that are being sold in Lima, tilapia? I'm not in the market for tilapia right now but curious as to who this is. Can you provide a more specific link?
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
JKB,

Are the live fish that are being sold in Lima, tilapia? I'm not in the market for tilapia right now but curious as to who this is. Can you provide a more specific link?


They have various species including Tilapia
http://cgi.ebay.com/Live-Blue-Tilapia-fi...#ht_1927wt_1137

But I did not see Tilapia on their website

http://www.sugarcreekfishery.com/

Darn internet croaked yesterday when I tried to edit and add info. I wish they would get this thing fixed mad

Originally Posted By: JKB
I do not know if this is appropriate to post, but a Fish Hatchery in Lima, OH is selling live fish and the PVC Ribbon Bio-Fill Material on ebay for really low prices. The PVC Ribbon would give one an SSA of about 1800 square feet in a 55 gallon drum. And, this stuff works pretty well in water applications >65F. The water needs to supply the O2 as with any submerged bio-filter, and as with any bio-filter, one needs a decent solids filter in front.

Search "Aquaculture".

This stuff will work much better than deer netting, and seriously cut your electric costs.


I was all set to order when I found out it was only 8 dollars a cubic foot but then they wanted 80 bucks shipping on 5 cu ft... Oh well it was a thought. If I could find it for 10 or 15 a cubic foot shipped to my door, I would try it.

I been thinking of adding additional deer nets to my filters too. I don't think that's going to double the filtering capacity if I double the netting. But it's got to help some.
Hey Steve,
Ya need to play the auction to get a good deal. The one I saw for 5 ft3 came to 12.00/ft3 including shipping. That auction ended.

If you bid 5.00 on the 2 ft3 auction and win (which you probably will) shipping is only 13.90. So that comes to 9.45 per ft3 delivered. Then you wait till they list more.

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-CUFT-PVC-RIBBON-BI...0#ht_730wt_1137

Aquatic Eco Systems sells it for 49.00/ft3.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/2637/Bio-Fill

You can also make it yourself if you have access to a lathe, although it sure is a PITA.
Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
JKB,

Are the live fish that are being sold in Lima, tilapia? I'm not in the market for tilapia right now but curious as to who this is. Can you provide a more specific link?


They have various species including Tilapia
http://cgi.ebay.com/Live-Blue-Tilapia-fi...#ht_1927wt_1137

But I did not see Tilapia on their website

http://www.sugarcreekfishery.com/

Darn internet croaked yesterday when I tried to edit and add info. I wish they would get this thing fixed mad


One of our members ships blue tilapia also. I know Rainman (Rex) sells blue tilapia and delivers but not sure if he ships?

Pure Blue Tilapia Fry and Fingerlings For Sale in the US

Pure Line Blue Tilapia
(Oreochromis Aureus)
Fry and Small Fingerlings Available

FREE sample of Premium Fish Food Co. Tilapia PowerStart Fry Powder or Crumble to get you started

http://tilapiasource.com/zc/images/btilapia.jpg
This is a picture of one of our young female Blue Tilapia with her offspring


A Few Words about our Blue Tilapia
Our Blue Tilapia are a 100% pure line. We use no hormones and no dangerous chemicals. Our fish are free from any kind of genetic modification. They are known for fast growth and fantastic cold water tolerance (down to 45 degrees). Our various Tilapia lines are used by a host of educational institutions throughout the US, and we supply fish to many commercial operations as well. They are high quality fish, and we believe them to be some of the best Blues available in the US. We are big enough to handle larger volume orders, but we primarily cater to backyard operations, home aquaponics growers, pond owners and farmers market growers. You should expect to get a roughly 50/50 mix of males and females in every shipment. We also include a free sample of Premium Fish Food Co. Tilapia food that is appropriately sized for your fish. More info on PFC Tilapia Foods can be found at www.premiumfishfood.com.

Shipping Information and Live Arrival Guarantee
We guarantee live arrival of your fish. White Brook Tilapia Farm (tilapiasource.com) takes great care to ensure you receive healthy fish. We carefully pack our fish in a special double insulated shipping container with just the right amount of conditioned/ammonia stabilized water and pure oxygen and ship them to you via UPS Overnight shipping. During the winter months, when temperatures are on the low side, we also place a special heat pack in the container just to make sure your fish travel as safely and comfortably as possible.

We add some extra fish to take care of that extremely rare occasion when a few of them don't make the trip alive. Usually this just means you get a few extra free fish as we rarely experience mortalities in transit.

We will replace fish or provide a refund for any shortages due to mortalities.

Questions? Feel free to contact us!
info@tilapiasource.com


He also sells Nile Tilapia in the fall.
Yes, Rex also ships the Blues. He used to have an ongoing auction on e-bay, but I'll bet he let it lapse while he was in the hospital.
Originally Posted By: esshup
Yes, Rex also ships the Blues. He used to have an ongoing auction on e-bay, but I'll bet he let it lapse while he was in the hospital.


I saw Rex's ebay add this morning, It's still up.
I saw it too. I didn't see it earlier in the week tho.
OK, so two PB members sell Tilapia on ebay and ship.

I may just get 50 or so fingerling's for something to do this winter. I wanted to do an aquaponics trial next year. A greenhouse cover for my garage in a box is around 120.00. That would not be too expensive for a trial and error op.
My 1800 gallon pool came Friday and I spent all day yesterday setting it up and taking down the old 5000 gallon pool. I can't believe how much nicer it is. It's the perfect size. Low enough so you can sit at a table and hang your feet over the water. We were joking last night that all we had to do was put a hibachi on the table and we could catch cook and eat them right there.

Here is a picture of both pools so you can see the size difference and another close up



I would like to set up another small pool where the old leaky one was for crawdads or freshwater shrimp. If this works out I am also thinking about raising tropical aquarium fish instead of food fish or maybe koi.
Steve,

Where do you get all the energy? Oh wait, grin you're probably a young whipper snapper and I'm an old man.

I don't know where I get my energy from.

In the future I don't think I'm going to be messing with using one pump and manifolding all the barrels together. It is actually cheaper to buy five separate pumps now that I found fosterandsmithaquatics and run a separate pump to each barrel with a garden hose. It's actually the only way to go. It's a real pain in the butt having to cut and re glue all that pvc just to move a barrel. Those plastic barrels aren't heavy at all and if I didn't have to glue them it would be really easy to move them to get new pools established. My swimming pool hose fits perfectly into the fitting on the bottom and will drain any barrel in just a few seconds from anywhere I want to put a pool in my back yard and long enough to reach into the alley. Makes flushing them a breeze.

By far the hardest part was leveling the pool. I use sand that comes down our dirt road every time it floods my driveway, so it was a two fold project. It wouldn't have been so bad if I had a wheel barrow but I had to hand carry five gallon buckets by hand. Did I mention I had to carry them... by hand?
Steve,

You are on a roll... Time to make things a little more complicated and rewarding... I think you should be building an aquaponics system (if someone hasn't suggested it already).


See this video for more details...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqS9ZXUPz2k

I am in the process of making a really really tiny scale one with a 70 gallon stock tank and some bluegill.

smile



one thing at a time
I lost my first two tilapia today. The water temperature was just below 90 degrees and the fish were acting more aggressive than I've ever seen before. Both were medium sized fish. Probably females. I have a dozen flower pots on the bottom that I thought might induce mating but no 3 inch pieces for them to hide like in the tank method. I'm not sure if that's the problem. I didn't rule out water conditions. I had been feeding them a lot the last three days. Ammonia was under .25 PPM so that's not the problem. I did a 3/4 water change any way just to be safe, which is not really 3/4 anymore with all those barrels but close. I mostly drained them to see what was going on but the started acting normal as the sun started going behind the mountain at the same time. Any ideas what probably killed them?
Unforutnately I have no experience with tilapia -- yet. So I can't help you there.

What are your nitrites at?
Surfsteve,I'm curious as to how many males are in there with them?
Tilapia females rarely fight....Males mouth fight (looks like they're kissing)....Males will destroy non-gravid and post spawning females by hitting them behind the gills.

Tilapia are NOT a social fish!!!!
Thanks Rainman, Thats about the same line of thinking I had. Now, what does non-gravid mean?? Non fry holding?
Non-gravid...without eggs.
You haven't been up and running for as long as it might take a tank to fully mature and cycle properly. I think it will take awhile longer for your biological filtration to take care of the water.

I didn't know that tilapia were wife beaters rainman. Very interesting stuff!
I'm guessing I have about a 50/50 mix of male and females. Although only about 15 or 20 percent clearly look like males. Probably because they are too young yet. My nitrites were at zero. I changed all of the old water from the pool into the new pool and all of the filters. I washed the new liner with dawn and rinsed it but I could still smell a little plastic though it may have been coming from the outside, which I didn't wash. I don't think water quality was the problem. The belly of one of them was a little swollen and I wondered if she was full of eggs but she wasn't. The tail was a little chewed up on the other one and it's scales were a little chewed. I didn't pay attention to behind the gill area but now that you mention it I think it was a little lighter color and may have been chewed up. I could see the big males were clearly doing the aggression. I have seen them kissing before but yesterday they were going nuts. I am convinced it has to do with temperature. The pond is down to 75 degrees this morning but was almost 90 when all the aggression was going on and the two fish died. That's quite a fluctuation of temperature. I think that and the fact that there's not enough places for the small fish to hide is also a problem.

I'm planning on buying some 2 and 3 inch pvc pipe and cutting it into 8 inch lengths. This will give all the smaller fish a place to hide. The big fish have taken the flower pots and chase fish as they swim by. Is there anything else I can do to lower aggression? I am considering shade cloth to lower the temperature. But only as a last resort. I'm also trying to think of something to throw in the water to give them more places to hide. 3 inch pvc isn't cheap and it seems like such a waste to cut up good pipe. Metal would probably be bad for the water or I would start saving tin cans. What about drain pipe? It's 4 inches but it's cheap. What about tree branches? Would that mess up water quality?
Of all the choices listed, I'd go with the 4" drain pipe.
Steve, with the large amount of space, and the number of fish that you have. How many fish by the way? Don't you think that they can avoid aggression? Rex could probably answer this better, but my understanding is that many fish allows the aggression to be spread out. So you have quite a number of fish, and quite a bit of space for them to retreat to. Just my guess, but maybe you should be more concerned about the new pool, could it have any treatments that make it unsafe? Or could your trace amounts of ammonia be taking a toll? You are doing well so far, and the loss of a couple fish is to be expected. But two in a day would lead me to think environment rather than aggression .
Swimming pools usually contain plasticizers that are toxic to fish. You can however condition the pool over time so this toxic issue is not a problem. A new pool would have to be conditioned.

They do make swimming pools that are "fish safe" for aquaculture purposes.

I'm sure the plasticizers from the new pool and the fact that the filters are still functioning way below capacity aren't helping but I think the aggression was due to high temperature and primarily the fact that there were places to mate but no places for the female fish to hide. I bought 4 pieces of three inch drain pipe and one piece of 4 inch and cut them into 6 to 8 inch lengths. The bottom of the pool is covered with them and flower pots now and the fish are still swimming at high speed but I haven't noticed any of them attacking each other anymore.

I made the mistake of taking the thermometer out of the pool to see what the air temperature was. It was well above 120 in the sun and now the thermometer is stuck so I wont be able to measure the temp. till I get another one but I could easily take a shower with that water in the daytime. I am concerned how low it drops at night and hope that it wont be too cold for them under a dome this winter.

I'm thinking my next project should be crayfish. The nearest lake is a two hour drive and I'm thinking maybe of going out there one of these days with some wire and some screen and build some traps while I fish to see if I can haul some in to bring back and raise. Is it true that the common varieties will get 6 to 8 inches under ideal conditions?
The temp changes won't bother the tilapia. I've personally tossed them back into 85 degree water after keeping them for hours in water at 47 degrees with them eating 5 minutes later. The aggression is entirely normal....the bigger the male is the larger the territory he will defend.
ammonia on the other hand..........
My ammonia is low. The only times it ever went up was when I fertilized the pool with miracle gro and ammonium sulfate. I was keeping it between half and one PPM with the fertilizer. Once I accidently shot it up to 2ppm because I didn't wait long enough for the test to complete before adding ammonium sulfate. I've had my goldfish that high and the level returned to normal in a few days. The goldfish seemed fine but I didn't like the way the tilapia were looking after the first hour so I drained the pool and changed most of the water. They were only exposed a couple hours. I am thankful for having my half hp sump pump that can empty a pool in a matter of minutes. If I could find urea or some kind of non ammonia based fertilizer I would use it. The day I lost my two fish the ammonia was almost unmeasurable. I am feeding my fish cat food. I got one that floats with really small pellets that 80 percent of my fish can swallow whole. My latest strategy is to give them as much as they can eat for five minutes twice a day.

Another thing I am thankful for is my garden hose water timer. It has saved me a fortune. I can set it to top off my goldfish kiddie pool or as long as two hours which will fill my new pool half way. I was planning on hooking my pools up with floats that fill them but the timer is the way to go.
Tilapia can handle very high ammonia levels IF it builds up slowly, It rarely builds up slowly in RAS systems however!

Ammonia poisoning will cause blotches on the top of the head and make the fish look like it has a saddle on it. The fish will spin and swim like crazy in all directions and angles. They will also jump high out the water. Ammonia will also dissolve the gills, tail and dorsal fins.

PS....Urea is pure ammonia from urine.
Originally Posted By: Rainman
Tilapia can handle very high ammonia levels IF it builds up slowly, It rarely builds up slowly in RAS systems however!

Ammonia poisoning will cause blotches on the top of the head and make the fish look like it has a saddle on it. The fish will spin and swim like crazy in all directions and angles. They will also jump high out the water. Ammonia will also dissolve the gills, tail and dorsal fins.

PS....Urea is pure ammonia from urine.


Rex, you're amazing! Very good tip on amonia poisoning!!!
Thanks for the tips.

I do have a couple of Tilapia with blotches on their heads. But then I have one albino too. From the looks of the guys tank I bought them from I'd say they were raised in pretty filthy conditions. For the past week I've been feeding my fish heavily and the water seems to be staying clean. The very first time I tested our tap water the ammonia was almost 1/2 ppm. My neighbor happened to be talking to the water company and they told him that they added extra chlorine to the water for some reason or another but I guess it was just a freak occurrence. I've never been able to measure any ammonia since that day in the tap water.

It's been very cold the past few days and my fish haven't been coming up to feed in the mornings but they fed last night. It's how hard to believe how fast the water temperature dropped on Friday when the winds started blowing. I'll bet it cooled my pool from 95 to 65 in less than an hour.
Whats up Steve? Have not seen any updates lately. Things still going well?
Originally Posted By: brier
Whats up Steve? Have not seen any updates lately. Things still going well?



Fish fry? grin

Just messing with ya Steve. blush
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: brier
Whats up Steve? Have not seen any updates lately. Things still going well?



Fish fry? grin

Just messing with ya Steve. blush


Learning Curve wink

First time around (before the internet) my fish were too small to fry blush

30 degree temp drop in less than an hour...

We need an update Steve!
Seems like the fish are getting bigger. They eat a lot more when it's hot. I been thinking of getting into crayfish and plants. I have an agreement with a guy from craigslist to deliver 4 24" x 7' x 17 foot fiberglass containers on his way to vegas in a couple weeks. Two of them have fork lift punctures but I am sure I can fix them up. I also ordered some new air pumps. I put my 20 watt in the pool and it pumps a lot of air but it stops working when it gets really hot. Just when the fish need it most. I am thinking about locating air pumps inside my swamp cooler but I will probably be ok till next summer.

Also it's getting time to think about building some sort of cold frame over the pool in the next month or so.

I found one more dead one in the pool this morning. That makes a total of three out of the 100 fish that I have started with. I think this was another female same as last only very swollen. From what I am reading loosing only three fish is good. My water is also looking clearer and all of my tests for ammonia n2 and n3 are undetectable. It has taken a brown color and I added a tablespoon of ammonium sulfate. I swear it started looking greener after only half an hour. I'm going to wait for three full days to test the water and of it is still low add some more fertilizer. It's nice to have the water actually getting clearer instead of cloudy.

I been feeding the fish really heavy and the water seems to be staying pretty clear. It does have a lot of protein bubbles on it in the morning but they are gone as soon as the sun hits.

I keep looking for fry in the water but haven't seen anything. The bottom is littered with pvc pipe and flower pots for them to hide and mate in. I read that you can get schools swimming on the surface. If I even saw one fry I would set up something and start collecting them. I got a hunch it's going to get too cold for any breeding to occur before winter gets here. I wouldn't mind getting hold of some sort of aquatic plants for them to hide in, just in case.

None of my new pumps or stuff has gotten here yet. I can't wait to see how much of a difference going from a 20 watt to an 80 watt air pump makes. I thought I was getting a lot of aeriation from the spash coming out of my filters but having all the airstones on the bottom seems to have made a huge difference.
I was going to ask if anyone thought it would hurt to use a piece of rebar as a weight inside a piece of poly pipe to plug my airstones into when my new air pump gets here. It comes in 10 foot lengths which will string the perfect distance across my 12 foot pool. I was thinking it would get rusty at first because of laying at the bottom of a pool but duh It's going to be encased in plastic pipe and have air blowing through it. I don't see it hurting anything. In theory I can plug as many airstones as I want into the pipe and add more as the old ones become clogged.
The rebar will still rust as compressed air is extremely humid. The rust rebar wont really hurt anything other than being a big airflow restriction.
You could always paint the rebar, just make sure it is completely dried and cured. Then just wash it off real good with soap and water.
I like the painting idea.

For whatever reason, if the rebar rusts, small particles will flake off sooner or later.

Now, they will lay in the bottom of the tube, which is no big deal. BUT, if they get disturbed for any reason while the air is going, there is the possibility of them getting pushed inside the airstones, which might not be a good thing.
Airstones should be cleaned regularly in Muratic Acid which will dispatch the rust rather quickly.... smile
Spotting a fry may be to late. I have seen the larger ones eat the fry quickly after being hatched. When they females stop eating check their mouths for eggs, roughly 18 days from last hatch. Hatch the eggs yourself and raise separate from the larger ones.

When the water starts becoming cloudy is when they will start dieing off. Don't really know what causes it. I have run my tanks from clear, green, real dark green and almost black with no problems. When it takes on a cloudy tint, problems.


If I could spot one I would at least know they are breeding. I have no idea what is happening down there. I would think at least one or two eventually would survive. From what I have read fry are more of a problem than a blessing when raising talapia because there tends to be so many they keep the rest of the fish small and they never get big. I actually had a dream last night that I found a dead fry about an inch long floating in the water. I agree about the cloudy water. It's been almost 2 weeks since I have had to change any water and it's actually getting clearer by the day. I am feeding the fish as much as they will eat too.
Check your filtration system. There have been several fry that get sucked up through the pump and end up living in the filtration system. Fry in the tank can be eaten within minutes.

The other thing that can be happening is if you have a large population of males and they are fighting the female will spit out the eggs and either they will be eaten or fall to the bottom and if she doesn't pick up fairly quickly they will not develop and hatch.
This is amazing! When I looked at my water this morning it is crystal clear! A week ago it was like pea soup and I never changed a single drop of it! All I have is five 55 gallon drum clarifiers. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I wouldn't have believed it. I made a video if I ever get time to upload it.
Did you cut back on your feeding?
The same thing has happened to the goldfish ponds. The water was really cloudy a few days ago when I found two dead birds in the bottom pond. I was going to change the water but I never got around to it. Now it's too late... the water is crystal clear! It's odd that both the tilapia and the goldfish cleared up on the same day. I built the goldfish filter in my second batch, which was almost a week later... despite this actually the goldfish were clear a couple days before I found the birds. Maybe it has more to do with the age of the pool than it does the age of the biofilters. I built that pool a week or two before the talapia pool but the tilapia had their filters built first...
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Did you cut back on your feeding?



No. I actually increased it. I am feeding them as much as they will eat several times a day. 10 times more food then when the water was dirty. It's got to be the filters kicking in and working.
Here are some videos of my fish.

This first one is a few days after I got them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhsijMTNXfc

Here they are jumping out of the water at feeding time. They did it a few minutes before and I was hoping they would do it again when I came back with the camera. They did not disappoint me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziTZvkAdgLQ

In this video about a week ago the fish are getting bigger.
Also notice how the water progressively clears in each video. Most of them were taken just after a water change. In the last video I took this morning the water is pretty old. I only did one water change the day I lost two fish and I really didn't need to but I felt better safe than sorry. I could also upload a video of my goldfish setup made of two kiddie pools if anyone is interested.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdljeEXRK1M

This final video (I called it video 3 and then I sneaked the one of them jumping in to confuse everybody) Is the one I took this morning. Look how clear the water is. It shows the big long strands of microbes several inches long growing on the mesh. Also I swear the fish are bigger in each video. And did I mention (enough times) how clear the water has become? Is somebody sneaking in and changing the water while I am gone? What do you guys think? How come there is hardly any algae?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8reEJxvwmg

Here is a picture of what I am feeding them.

Seems like I have also adopted a cat. I noticed whenever I left bags of fish (I mean cat) food out they started disappearing. I finally started leaving a dish of food out and every morning it's empty. I've seen the cat and he doesn't look anything like the picture on the bag but this is exactly what I have been feeding them. The first bag was Stater Brothers brand and about four dollars cheaper.
FEEDING:
I'm still working on how much to feed the fish. I was feeding them as much as they would eat all day long and the water is getting very dirty again after less than a week so I backed off yesterday. I think if I would just feed them for about five or ten minutes once or twice a day the water would stay clear.

I've been going back to work and I've been considering looking into automatic fish feeders. Does anybody know of anything that might work for a swimming pool? It looks like the automatic cat feeders might be my best bet but I'm also interested in finding some sort of demand feeder like in the book. Anybody know where to buy them from?

To cut expenses I am also going to be moving me and the fish soon to my apartment complex that I am hoping to open up by spring. The complex is on three acres but more than half of it is open area that I am seriously considering setting up for gardening, fish and other hobbies for (me and) the future tenants.
SurfSteve, feeding Cat Chow is likely to have a high amount of waste in the form of undigested material.

if your fish are above 6"long feeding would be 1.5-4 pounds of feed per day fed over 2-4 periods per day. This would be the rate if using Purina Aquamax---a highly digestable food for fish.

An educated guess for using Cat Chow would be to feed 3-10 pounds Cat chow and get more filtration to handle the high ammonia load.

Compare most dog feed daily feeding rates for a 100# dog. Common brands will suggest 10-15 cups feed per day and will produce lots to clean up at the other end of the dog where Purina Pro Plan, a highly digestable feed requires 3.5-4 cups daily and produces little waste daily at the other end. The good feed may cost more, but overall expense is lower along with cleanup cost. Not to mention you'll have a healthier, less stressed animal.
You asked how come there is no algae? there is a LOT of algae!!! It is what you call "long strands of microbes" which are in fact Filamentous Algae (FA). The FA is growing in the filters because of the trapped wasted feed nutrient load.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
Here are some videos of my fish.

This first one is a few days after I got them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhsijMTNXfc

Here they are jumping out of the water at feeding time. They did it a few minutes before and I was hoping they would do it again when I came back with the camera. They did not disappoint me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziTZvkAdgLQ

In this video about a week ago the fish are getting bigger.
Also notice how the water progressively clears in each video. Most of them were taken just after a water change. In the last video I took this morning the water is pretty old. I only did one water change the day I lost two fish and I really didn't need to but I felt better safe than sorry. I could also upload a video of my goldfish setup made of two kiddie pools if anyone is interested.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdljeEXRK1M

This final video (I called it video 3 and then I sneaked the one of them jumping in to confuse everybody) Is the one I took this morning. Look how clear the water is. It shows the big long strands of microbes several inches long growing on the mesh. Also I swear the fish are bigger in each video. And did I mention (enough times) how clear the water has become? Is somebody sneaking in and changing the water while I am gone? What do you guys think? How come there is hardly any algae?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8reEJxvwmg

Here is a picture of what I am feeding them.

Seems like I have also adopted a cat. I noticed whenever I left bags of fish (I mean cat) food out they started disappearing. I finally started leaving a dish of food out and every morning it's empty. I've seen the cat and he doesn't look anything like the picture on the bag but this is exactly what I have been feeding them. The first bag was Stater Brothers brand and about four dollars cheaper.


I get it!

Sea Kittens laugh
You think there is algae in that video? I went out there this evening and there has been an algae explosion! The water is looking clear and very green. It has to be the small handfull of ammonium sulfate I threw in the pool but I think the algae ate all the stuff that is making it cloudy. Maybe tomorrow it will start trapping it in the filters and it will be back to what it was in the video. My Ammonia was a little above zero in the video and now it's at least a half PPM. I gave them two five minute feedings today and very little else.

I will check more into the cat food. They seem to love it and I read several people were saying it was just as good as Purina fish chow. But food seems to be a minor expense at this point. Electricity is probably my main expense but that's because I live in California. I would imagine most if not all the commercial growers were probably put out of business in the Enron days. I wouldn't be surprised if these fish cost me ten dollars per pound by the time they are raised after all the expenses are counted up. So I will give the catfood a little more consideration. It still may win out just because of convenience. Unless I can get the cats to start eating fish food but that just doesn't seem right... It's amazing how fast the water can go from cloudy to clear and back to cloudy again. It seems like there might be a delay of a few days which is making things hard and throwing me off.

If I get lots and lots of tanks I might have to get real scientific about the feeding. I was keeping track of it before the cat started eating it. I think all they can eat for five minutes twice a day is a good save bet. Of course everyone wants to feed them more to make them grow faster or what ever. But they wont grow very fast if you feed them too much and they die.

If the water is clear tomorrow I will bump the food back up. The fish seem to be happy. I bet in a few days the algae will take out all the ammonia from the fertilizer and either the fish will eat the algae or the filter will trap it. Probably both.
Hmm,

I am not claiming to be an expert, but I have done some diet formulation for my animal nutrition and metabolism classes.

The purina cat chow will not be as good as the purina fish chow.

Sure, the digestibility and % protein could be the same, but if the protein composition does not contain the proper "building blocks", then it will reflect poorly on growth.

Have you entertained the idea of growing some aquatic plants for the tilapia to eat? It might be a good supplement to their diet.
I am planning on raising lettuce and other vegetables and feeding all of the scraps to the fish. I am also thinking I can fillet the tilapia and feed the scraps to the crayfish and feed the crayfish scraps to the crayfish and filter all that water through the plants. I can't wait till my new (used and damaged) $3000 fiberglass tanks get here that I paid a hundred bucks each for. Now I just hope I have the free time to work on them.

The algae is very thick in the water now but the water is very clear and healthy looking. It's hard to believe the couple tablespoons of ammonium sulfate I threw in five days ago can grow that much algae. I think it's probably good for the fish as long as I can keep my ammonia below 1/2 ppm.
Ammonia at ANY level is not good for fish.
I meant all the algae that is growing not the ammonia.
Yes, the algae is a favored food for the tilapia.

The secret to growing massive amounts of algae is fertilizer. It's also the easiest thing to get into trouble with. Putting in the right amount of fertilizer is the hardest thing I have yet to learn. I nearly killed all of my fish one time doing it but I think I'm catching on. It's a good thing I had all the free time on my hands when I first started out. I'm absolutely sure that if I did not have all the aquarium experience and free time to watch them, that I would have killed these fish ten times over!
Steve,

You are right that growing massive amounts of algae (Or other plants) takes a lot of fertilizer; however, you shouldn't have to add any fertilizer with such a high concentration of fishes.

One of the main components in high quality fertilizers is liquefied fish shit. It might just be called liquid fish fertilizer, or fish extrusion.

All you should have to do is have water that comes directly from your filter go into another holding tank without a lid. This could be another kitty pool or something like that. It doesn't have to be too deep, but should have a lot of surface area exposed to sunlight. You can experiment with what aquatic plants you put in there if you want something other than algae.

This would be beneficial for two reasons:

1) You would be growing a low cost (essentially free) supplement to your tilapia's diet.

2) The algae or other plants will use the fish extrusion as fertilizer. The plants will siphon off a decent amount of ammonia to help themselves grow. This can act sort of a buffer, or boost to your biological filtration. In addition to using ammonia, the plants will use nitrates. This will lower those levels as well, or create a buffer.

I would not recommend adding fertilizer to the system. I am not so sure that the benefits out-weight the risk in this situation.

I just attempted to test my water for ammonia with a test kit. My water is so green that it already looks like it has ammonia in it before I even add any chemicals. It's going to throw the test off. How do you test greenwater for ammonia? It looks impossible with a standard test kit.

I got a feeling my ammonia is at or near zero already and that I've been getting false ammonia readings before. I might have kept reducing their food till they ate all the algae and then the ammonia tested for zero when it might have been zero all along...

It is possible after the fish ate all the algae they started eating only fish food and required massive amounts. Now that the algae is back they don't eat nearly as much catfood. I also can only see about six inches down. But there is no cloudiness to the water. Only deep green. Almost black! The fish waste has also gone from brown to green again.

My new pool is 1800+ gallons. It's easy to mentally round up to 2000 gallons but I rarely fill it over 1500. I think this has been part of my problem. Going from 4000 gallons to 1500 is taking a little getting used to. My new pool is closer to 1/3 of the old pool. Not 1/2 the size... This will help a lot even though I'm pretty much playing everything by ear instead of measuring. With cats eating my fish food and greenwater affecting my test kits; playing it by ear is becoming my only choice!
What size are you fish? I haven't run into any of these issues but I might not be keeping them in the tank as long as you are. I hatch them and keep them until they are about 5-6" before they go into the pond.

I kind of sort of agree with your reply Gflo. Maybe attempting greenwater was not a good idea on my first try but I really don't like the idea of eating fish that were raised on 100% genetically modified feed.

I am sort of way ahead of you. I will be attempting to grow vegetables and crayfish in the new fiberglass tanks I have coming. One major complication will have is that I will be moving. Actually everything is going along with a magnificent chaotic smoothness to it all. Had my tanks been delivered on time I would have to move them. Now all I have to do is figure out where...
Originally Posted By: TEXAS715
What size are you fish? I haven't run into any of these issues but I might not be keeping them in the tank as long as you are. I hatch them and keep them until they are about 5-6" before they go into the pond.


In the last video I posted a few days ago when the water was clear they looked to be a little bigger than that. I like the water being clear. Adding plants to feed the fish is another idea instead of feeding them algae. They seem to be growing incredibly fast. Even the goldfish I put in there are way bigger than the ones in the pool they came out of. I want to try either floating raft or a bell siphon bed. I think I can grow a better variety in a gravel bed with a bell siphon but I haven't figured out how to do it with the huge fiberglass tubs I am getting without adding massive amounts of pumps or drastically modifying the setup... Whatever design I come up with I now see is going to also have to have move-ability factored in.
Gravel beds can get very, very, very, very heavy. Next time I am going with a different bedding material.
Maybe I should go floating raft? I want to grow more than just lettuce and basil though... I think I'm going to have to have a low cost soil like material to do that. My six new fiberglass tanks are 8x17x2'. Gravel or floating-raft is the only affordable alternative to my knowledge. Volcanic gravel is my choice.
Actually floating raft is my choice. No heavy gravel. I would just like to be able to grow more then just lettuce.

Today my water has cleared it's self up enough to see the bottom again. I noticed the algae is also turning brown again and almost gone in the pool so I added a teaspoon of ammonium sulfate to get it growing again. I didn't even bother testing for ammonia. I just assumed it was back down to zero.
Check out growing plants using NFT (http://www.diy-guides.com/building-a-nft-hydroponic-system/). Made a system using 4" plastic field tile that worked great. It keeps growing media to a minimum and with a little ingenuity can be added to your system without extra pumps.

I don't think NFT will work with my new setup... I am getting six tubs made of fiberglass that measure 2 feet deep 7 feet across and 17 feet long for less than a hundred dollars each that used to be part of some enviornmental research project. The guy says they cost them over 3000 a piece new and they have some sort of air setup already in them. He has put me off till next weekend but says they are all loaded on a semi and ready to be dropped off on his trip to Arizona. When I get the tanks I'll photograph them and figure out how to best put them to good use. I'm already thinking of making one an ornamental fish tank in front of my apartment complex in addition to the tilapia project. I have only seen a picture of them so far stacked next to a container and they are huge!

Wow... I checked out Amazon.com and the pool I paid 120+ for in my videos is less than 75 dollars, free shipping! I noticed all of the steel frame pools are really super cheap right now. I wish I had waited! NOW is the time to order swimming pools guys!
Yep, end of summer and people don't want to store them over the winter, or the kids didn't use them enough so they aren't going to bother with them next year.
Have you ever flown over a city and noticed most of the swimming pools are green with algae?

Could there be that many people raising Tilapia in their back yard shocked
Maybe raising fish in swimming pools will become a fad some day. I been thinking of raising mosquito fish inside my filters to keep bugs from laying eggs in them. The trick is, how do I keep the mosquito fish inside the filters so they don't get eaten by the tilapia. I wish I had bought a bunch of twelve dollar kiddie pools before the stores all sold out of them. Now I can't buy them at any price. I suspect the same thing will be happening soon with the bigger pools online.

The teaspoon of fertilizer I put in a few days ago really went a long way this time. It seems like I only need to keep the algae growing faster than the fish eat it. This time instead of cutting down on fish food I kept on feeding them heavily and there is no slow down on the algae. It is also very dark green. Perhaps the trick is to keep feeding them enough food so that they don't eat all the algae and I wont have to add anymore fertilizer. Or at least not as much.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
Maybe raising fish in swimming pools will become a fad some day. I been thinking of raising mosquito fish inside my filters to keep bugs from laying eggs in them. The trick is, how do I keep the mosquito fish inside the filters so they don't get eaten by the tilapia. I wish I had bought a bunch of twelve dollar kiddie pools before the stores all sold out of them. Now I can't buy them at any price. I suspect the same thing will be happening soon with the bigger pools online.

Maybe it will be a fad, and you will be a trendsetter like Paris Hilton. Tilapia pools are "haht" wink
Originally Posted By: JKB
Have you ever flown over a city and noticed most of the swimming pools are green with algae?

Could there be that many people raising Tilapia in their back yard shocked



Before the ban on tilapia posession in CA, I sold to several customers in SoCal that are raising them in inground swimming pools.
Why did they ban Tilapia in CA?
Originally Posted By: JKB
Have you ever flown over a city and noticed most of the swimming pools are green with algae?


Those are foreclosures. grin
Originally Posted By: JKB
Why did they ban Tilapia in CA?


Because they can possibly survive southern California winters, and become invasive. And the govenator said so.

Sadly it is a good decision, because people have no sense, and think releasing domestic fish into the wild is just fine. And even if they take precautions to prevent escapes, accidents happen. And tilapia are hardy,adaptable, omnivorous, and prolific. Once they are there, they are hard to get rid of.
Originally Posted By: Rainman


Before the ban on tilapia posession in CA, I sold to several customers in SoCal that are raising them in inground swimming pools.


Rex,

Are you sure they banned them completely? I thought I saw they allowed O. Mossambicus south of the Tehachapi Mountains?
Tilapia are allowed by permit only in very specific areas now. The law was changed around 5/2010. Posession of any tilapia species without prior approval and an $800+ permit is illegal.
The irony is that Southern california is the only are they will even consider approving a permit.
Originally Posted By: Rainman
Tilapia are allowed by permit only in very specific areas now. The law was changed around 5/2010. Posession of any tilapia species without prior approval and an $800+ permit is illegal.


800 dollar permit!!! shocked

Oh that's right they need to pay those high paid city administrators. whistle
You also have to pay for the inspection and the milage for the inspectors drive!

I no longer ship to California, but oddly, my shipments to western Nevada and Arizona went up considerably shortly after the law went into effect. I have NO idea why... wink
Originally Posted By: Rainman


I no longer ship to California, but oddly, my shipments to western Nevada and Arizona went up considerably shortly after the law went into effect. I have NO idea why... wink


laugh laugh laugh

Well my first sale of pond raised live fish went off without a hitch. (Inside Indiana so no VHS testing required).

Harry and Scot (Esshup) picked up 200 bgs and 200 yp today. Bluegills were 3 to 4 inches and very circular due to those Condello genes, and Harry wanted perch that were not feed trained so he got 3 inch yellow perch.

The ones in the perch production pond that took to the feed or are cannibals are 5 to 7 inches. Unfortunately not enough of them to sell at that size this year as there were only about 200 of the largest ones, which I will keep for myself for the RAS this winter. A few thousand of the 3 inchers though. I'm going to adding another light and feeder next year to the other end of the perch production pond to hopefully get more of them on feed.

The 3 inchers will go int the second RAS tank with 3 to 4 inch BG's and I'm pretty confident I can feed train them and get them several inches larger by spring.


Originally Posted By: JKB
Why did they ban Tilapia in CA?


Who knows! Why does California do most of what it does????
Cecil:

The transport came off without a hitch. Some splashing of water, but that's the reason for the trailer. (We transported the fish in 120 qt. coolers.)

I need to pick up 1 or 2 of those baitwell aerators and wire them like you did. Good idea!
Originally Posted By: Rainman
Tilapia are allowed by permit only in very specific areas now. The law was changed around 5/2010. Posession of any tilapia species without prior approval and an $800+ permit is illegal.

Originally Posted By: Rainman
The irony is that Southern california is the only are they will even consider approving a permit.

The new regulations are insane. They have put many California fish supplies out of business or very reluctant to do business. The fish supplier that DIED and I used a few years back is one of these individuals. He won't sell to private pond owners anymore. The regulations are very arbitrary. One example: The new regulations divided El Dorado county using a north/south highway. Owning property east of the highway causes you to be subject to a myriad of new stocking regulations. Owning property west of the highway exempts you from this. BTW this "highway" is a two lane road. So you can have two ponds across the road from one another that will have entirely different stocking regulations that effect them.

Absolutely crazy.

In Southern California (where Tilapia could winter over) it is possible (after jumping through the required hoops) to stock Tilapia. Why? Probably because there are several large Tilapia fish farms already in Southern California and Tilapia have existed in the Salton Sea for decades.


Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
800 dollar permit!!!
Oh that's right they need to pay those high paid city administrators. whistle

The permit in most places (after inspection, etc, etc) is $800.
In Bell, California however the permit is $15,400. laugh



Originally Posted By: Rainman
Who knows! Why does California do most of what it does????

Even those of us that live in California don't know why the state does what it does.
That's crazy!

I think I was ripped off and that my fish are actually bluegills.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
That's crazy!

I think I was ripped off and that my fish are actually bluegills.


Please tell us more, and why do you think they are BG!
Yes tell us more.

I'll like to have some those bluegills that can handle your ammonia levels and PH! grin


Sorry I don't remember why.



I stocked them back in I think April. They get feed twice aday. And love crickets. On a light reel and 4lb test it a nice little fight. They were 6 to 8" long are small when stocked.

I would like to see an actual copy of the laws before I make another attempt to identify my fish.
I am assuming that you think your fish are bluegill because you would like others on the message board to believe they are bluegill if in fact you had inadvertently acquired tilapia illegally?

Based on the information in this thread, had your fish been bluegill or morphologically similar looking sunfish, they more than likely all would have died due to swings / fluctuation of water parameters.

It is very hard to say what is legal or illegal in California due to regulations that apply only to certain regions, or specific strains / species of fish etc.

http://aqua.ucdavis.edu/Special_topics/tilapia.html

I would use information from that link to get in touch with your regional DFG office and see how they interpret the law as far as tilapia culture goes. They should be able to tell you what laws apply to you in your region. Looking at a copy of the laws probably won't help you because the interpretation of those laws is what counts, and for that you will have to speak with the department of fish and game directly.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve

I would like to see an actual copy of the laws before I make another attempt to identify my fish.


Here is a link to the stocking regulations. Look mid page under the term "Private Stocking" and more specifically under "Regulations Governing Private Stocking of Aquatic Plants and Animals -Non-Commercial (Informational Leaflet No. 6 .pdf)"
Originally Posted By: Gflo
I am assuming that you think your fish are bluegill because you would like others on the message board to believe they are bluegill if in fact you had inadvertently acquired tilapia illegally?

Based on the information in this thread, had your fish been bluegill or morphologically similar looking sunfish, they more than likely all would have died due to swings / fluctuation of water parameters.

It is very hard to say what is legal or illegal in California due to regulations that apply only to certain regions, or specific strains / species of fish etc.

http://aqua.ucdavis.edu/Special_topics/tilapia.html

I would use information from that link to get in touch with your regional DFG office and see how they interpret the law as far as tilapia culture goes. They should be able to tell you what laws apply to you in your region. Looking at a copy of the laws probably won't help you because the interpretation of those laws is what counts, and for that you will have to speak with the department of fish and game directly.



Gotta love bureaucracy and government agencies that have to regulate everything! If these people had a clue on how hard it is to run your own business! I deal with it every year with my fish! frown
Hmm... These are fish and game regulations. My fish are pets. Unless I pull a permit or invite them, what gives them jurisdiction over my back yard and my pets? It's not like one of their deer wandered in or even one of their fish and I'm not on their property so how do fish and game rules apply to me and my pets?
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
Hmm... These are fish and game regulations. My fish are pets. Unless I pull a permit or invite them, what gives them jurisdiction over my back yard and my pets? It's not like one of their deer wandered in or even one of their fish and I'm not on their property so how do fish and game rules apply to me and my pets?


I didn't read the link Jeff provided but there should be something applicable to aquaculture. Perhaps in the link gflo provided? BTW the government does have jurisdiction over our pets. There are all kinds of laws on the books regarding pets and restrictions for certain species.

I know haulers and fish farmers that go under the radar or feign ignorance and get away with it. On the other hand, I know of a few people that were caught that were fined dearly. It's entirely possible you'll never get approached with a backyard operation but then again...

As much a pain as it is, I get all the required permits and follow the laws even the ones that are so utterly stupid they defy explanation. I just couldn't sleep at night knowing that one knock on the door could shut me down if I was doing something I shouldn't. But my operation went further than a backyard hobby several years ago and hopefully is destined to continue to expand.
Technically they are not pets unless they are kept in a closed system. Closed meaning that rainwater cannot land in the system among a few other metrics.

The department of fish and game have no jurisdiction or boundaries in California. They can just walk into your backyard and do whatever they please. They are the only officers in the state that can arrest or write you a ticket for anything. They can write you a ticket for fishing without a license, or fine you for parking more than 16 inches away from a curb.

It doesn't matter if they are stationed in northwest Cali. They can drive all the way down south and write someone a ticket in San Diego.


I briefly read the link that JHAP posted and noticed the word Aquarium mentioned several times. With this dang cold I have right now, it's hard to concentrate.
Cecil, with the taxidermy business that you're in, I assume you might be further up on the radar list as well.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
Hmm... These are fish and game regulations. My fish are pets. Unless I pull a permit or invite them, what gives them jurisdiction over my back yard and my pets? It's not like one of their deer wandered in or even one of their fish and I'm not on their property so how do fish and game rules apply to me and my pets?


Read the name of the regulation:
REGULATIONS GOVERNING PRIVATE STOCKING OF
AQUATIC PLANTS AND ANIMALS (NONCOMMERCIAL)

Do what ever you want, you should just know the law.

I have read these regulations over and over my interpretation is this:

IF your property is located in certain areas (see page 3 of the regulations sited above) and IF you only want to stock one of the following fish (white catfish, channel catfish, blue catfish, largemouth bass, bluegill, Sacramento perch, rainbow trout, redear sunfish) then you DO NOT have to get a permit.

If your pond is not located in the geographic areas detailed in the brochure AND/OR if you want to stock ANY fish other than the eight species listed above then you must apply for a "Private Stocking Permit" (Form FG 749).

Note: this permit only lets you stock fish in private waters, this permit does not allow you to sell aquatic plants or animals.

This post is not intended to be construed as legal advice. Read the regulations yourself and draw your own conclusions.


Originally Posted By: JKB
I briefly read the link that JHAP posted and noticed the word Aquarium mentioned several times. With this dang cold I have right now, it's hard to concentrate.


The word aquarium is only mentioned once in the document on page 9.

Stop doing NyQuil shooters. laugh
Originally Posted By: esshup
Cecil, with the taxidermy business that you're in, I assume you might be further up on the radar list as well.


Even though there was a "sting" a few years ago, where every taxidermist in the state had his shop checked by out of county C.O's in one day, typically they aren't interested in someone that does just fish. For some reason the fish just don't excite them.

What's really interesting is at one time they didn't need a search warrant to enter a taxidermy shop and they still want you to think that is the case, or they aren't aware there's been a change in the law. There was court case in PA I believe called Sprinkle vs. Spangler where a C.O. had it out for a taxidermist and was showing up at all hours repeatedly just because he could. The case sided with the taxidermist and is supposed to be a precedent case where they can no longer barge in without a search warrant.

I know taxidermists that won't let them in without a warrant, but I let them in as they can still make life tough on you, or call in the feds as they did with a friend that told them to go "f' themselves. shocked laugh Yeah this friend has some cahoonas on him! It also made his lawyer some good change.

I've never had a problem with Indiana's C.O's. All have been polite and professional with me. I just wish they weren't so understaffed.
How about this link?

http://www.backyardnature.com/cgi-bin/gt/tpl.h,content=740

Edit:

Scratch the above. Absolutely worthless. Doesn't tell you anything but send you in a circle.
I hear you on the understaffed part. They need to double the number.
Originally Posted By: jeffhasapond
Originally Posted By: JKB
I briefly read the link that JHAP posted and noticed the word Aquarium mentioned several times. With this dang cold I have right now, it's hard to concentrate.


The word aquarium is only mentioned once in the document on page 9.

Stop doing NyQuil shooters. laugh


You are correct Sir! It only shows up once on page 9 (pdf word search), but, I somewhat read all of the documents in the link. And Aquarium, along with the word "Permit" caught my eye, within the context of course.

I actually can read legal a bit.

I wish I had some NyQuil right now. But I am opting for some Capitan Morgan at this point!

It is a Miracle Cure for such ailments! At least till morning laugh
Originally Posted By: esshup
I hear you on the understaffed part. They need to double the number.


Not a priority with our politicians.
Make no mistake, in many states, game wardens have have the same power as a federal marshal. They are some of the most powerful officers in the state.
Originally Posted By: jeffhasapond
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
Hmm... These are fish and game regulations. My fish are pets. Unless I pull a permit or invite them, what gives them jurisdiction over my back yard and my pets? It's not like one of their deer wandered in or even one of their fish and I'm not on their property so how do fish and game rules apply to me and my pets?


Read the name of the regulation:
REGULATIONS GOVERNING PRIVATE STOCKING OF
AQUATIC PLANTS AND ANIMALS (NONCOMMERCIAL)

Do what ever you want, you should just know the law.

I have read these regulations over and over my interpretation is this:

IF your property is located in certain areas (see page 3 of the regulations sited above) and IF you only want to stock one of the following fish (white catfish, channel catfish, blue catfish, largemouth bass, bluegill, Sacramento perch, rainbow trout, redear sunfish) then you DO NOT have to get a permit.

If your pond is not located in the geographic areas detailed in the brochure AND/OR if you want to stock ANY fish other than the eight species listed above then you must apply for a "Private Stocking Permit" (Form FG 749).

Note: this permit only lets you stock fish in private waters, this permit does not allow you to sell aquatic plants or animals.

This post is not intended to be construed as legal advice. Read the regulations yourself and draw your own conclusions.



What about a backyard Koi pond? How many people with a koi pond have a permit?
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
Hmm... These are fish and game regulations. My fish are pets. Unless I pull a permit or invite them, what gives them jurisdiction over my back yard and my pets? It's not like one of their deer wandered in or even one of their fish and I'm not on their property so how do fish and game rules apply to me and my pets?


They may be pets to you, but they are definitely fish and game to the state. CaF&G can go on any property at any time for an investigation. In some states the signing of a hunting or fishing permit waives your rights and authorizes the game warden to enter your premises without a warrant to check for wildlife violations.



Here is a VERY pertinant portion of the California law for you to consider.....IIRC, it went into effect on 05/01/2010 and does NOT have any "Grandfathering" clauses...NOTE- ALL tilapia are of the family Cichlidae

14 CCR § 671 Cal. Admin. Code tit. 14, § 671

§ 671. Importation, Transportation and Possession of Live Restricted Animals.


(a) It shall be unlawful to import, transport, or possess alive animals restricted in subsection (c) below except under permit issued by the Department of Fish and Game. Permits may be issued by the department as specified herein and for purposes designated in Section 671.1 subject to the conditions and restrictions designated by the department. Except for mammals listed in Fish and Game Code Section 3950 or live aquatic animals requiring a permit pursuant to Fish and Game Code Section 2271, no permit is required by this section for any animal being imported, transported, or possessed pursuant to any other permit issued by the department. Cities and counties may also prohibit possession or require a permit for these and other species not requiring a state permit.

long list of various animals follows, among them:

(O) Family Cichlidae -Cichlids
1. Tilapia sparrmani (Banded Tilapia) (D).

2. Tilapia zilli (Redbelly tilapia) (D), except permits may be issued to a person or agency for importation, transportation, or possession in the counties of San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside, San Diego, and Imperial.

3. Tilapia aurea (Blue tilapia) (D).

4. Tilapia nilotica (Nile tilapia) (D).
The quote below is from Inland Fisheries Informational Leaflet No. 35 as posted to the State of California Department of Fish and Game's website.


"Tilapia will be approved only only in San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside,San Diego, and Imperial counties. It may be stocked there only in waters approved by the Department of Fish and Game. Only T. mossambica and T. hornorum may be stocked, and recipient waters must be approved by the Department. No tilapias may be imported until the genetic integrity of the stock has been certified. This certification may be required for every shipment."


Although I don't know for certain I believe that koi ponds are exempted from these requirements under this paragraph in the publication above:

"Aquaculture" means that form of agriculture devoted to the propagation, cultivation, maintenance, and harvesting of aquatic plants and animals in marine, brackish, and fresh water. Aquaculture" does not include species of ornamental marine or freshwater plants and animals not utilized for human consumption or bait purposes that are maintained in closed systems for personal, pet industry, or hobby purposes, however, these species continue to be regulated under Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 2116) of Division 3."




Steve, one thing you should know about your swimming pools....They are NOT considered "closed" systems as they are directly exposed to the elements and are legally a "pond".

Let me get this straight. By purchasing a hunting or fishing license you are signing away your right to privacy and allowing them to come on your property any time they want?

I never possessed a hunting or fishing license and based on what you are telling me I'd have to be nuts to ever buy one.

I think it's time to build a dome.
Years ago in Arkansas if you had a hunting/fishing license, you authorized the game warden to enter any property you owned at any time and without notice to check for illegal wildlife.

How long was the authorization good for? I would think the length of the permit?
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
I think it's time to build a dome.


I would have to completely agree with you.

And just to be sure that I am completely understood, let it be known that I do not agree with the regulations that California has imposed upon us. Frankly I find them arbitrary (using a two lane road as a boundary for fish stocking regulations) and over bearing (requiring property inspections in order to transfer species of fish that already exist in a given body of water).

That being said the rules are the rules.

Given that you are in the middle of the desert and that your system does not connect to any other body of water, I would guess that you could get a permit to stock the Tilapia (if you are stocking the allowed species).

IMHO these new regulations are crushing pond owners and fish suppliers.
winter holyday at the Virgin isl.?
http://www.uvi.edu/sites/uvi/Pages/AES-Aquaculture-International_Aquaponics.aspx
My fiberglass tanks that I've been trying to get finally came. They are huge! It's about time. I made an agreement to buy them way back in July. I will get some pictures when I find my camera.
I found the chip to my camera but still haven't taken any pictures of the tanks. Yesterday I noticed a fish swimming like he was in trouble. I checked the water temp and it was down to 45 degrees. We put put about six inches of water from my hot water heater in the pool and covered the dome. He was ok yesterday evening but I noticed today that my goldfish pond in the front is covered with ice. Even the waterfall is now an ice cycle fall. Haven't check the back yet. Hang on for a few...

It's cold out there... I think I'd better wait till the sun hits and it warms up a bit before I open the cover. It seemed a lot warmer under there yesterday than it did outside. Hopefully they are all all right.
Does anybody have the proper dimensions for the tubing lengths to build a proper dome for a 12 foot pool? I was in a hurry when I built mine yesterday and couldn't find the book. I made it a little too large but it's going to have to do.

Also instead of covering only the pool with plastic I covered the entire thing, filters and all. I think it will stay warmer that way and perhaps making the dome a little big adds more dead air space... it just looks stupid... maybe funny is a better word. It came out much higher than the one in the book and lower to the ground. The 20' wide sheet of plastic makes it to the ground with only six inches to spare at it's narrowest point. I used blocks and rocks and benches to hold down the plastic and there is no door but all I have to do is move some rocks and benches and I can get underneath. I poked a small hole with my finger and put the pump outside. Otherwise it is all one continuous piece of plastic. As soon as it was finished both me and my neighbor decided we are building greenhouses in our back yards. I can't believe how easy and cheap it is. I want to find a real store that sells pipe in 20 foot lengths. I'm going to experiment with different pipe sizes. Do any of you guys have any links or plans for building greenhouses? I had to buy a 100 foot roll of plastic to get it 20 foot wide. I have plenty left over so my only expense in building another one will be the PVC. Does anybody know if I can use rubber gloves for PVC cement to keep it off my hands, or will it eat them? Also I wonder since I am limited to 20 feet of plastic if it might be worth building some kind of sides to attach them to. Perhaps a roll of insulation down each side supported by rebar pounded into the ground and backed with plywood would be a cheap way to extend the height. I have everything but the rebar on hand...

I just checked under the dome. The water is way warmer than the goldfish pond. The ice in the goldfish pond is melting and all collecting at the waterfall. It looks beautiful and all my fish are alive in both ponds. I can't get the the thermometer but the water under the dome feels warmer than yesterday. I think it will continue to warm up in there for the next few days. Sure is cold outside!
Originally Posted By: surfsteve
Does anybody have the proper dimensions for the tubing lengths to build a proper dome for a 12 foot pool? I was in a hurry when I built mine yesterday and couldn't find the book. I made it a little too large but it's going to have to do.


Scot (Esshup) has my Small Scale Aquaculture book that has the exact lengths for a 12 foot pool. If Scot sees this maybe he can tell us.
Here goes http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Sunspace/sunspaces.htm#Greenhouse%20Plans
A lot of optiones
Thanks. After looking at all the plans I think I would like to keep it simple and start out by building a giant 24' replica of the dome featured in the book. but have it lay in the ground instead of hanging over the pool. I would have to buy a 40 by 100 foot roll of plastic to cover it for 200 dollars that would be enough to make two domes and it would cost about 120 dollars for enough 1 1/2 inch PVC per dome (two crosses, eight three ways and 12, 20 foot lengths of pipe per dome). Probably no door at first, just lift up the plastic to get underneath and see how it turns out and if I use it. If I like it I will build another one and get fancy with it. Also I will probably add a ring made of 40feet of 3/4 pipe over the dome for added stability.
I don't have a scanner, so you'll have to do with a description.

Material needed:
4 pc. 3/4" x 162" PVC Pipe
(to make bows to hold visqueen in the dome shape)
8 pc. 3/4" PVC "T"'s (to attach bows to PVC ring that circles the side of the 12' dia pool)
8 pc. 3/4" x 57" PVC Pipe (to make ring around pool)
1 pc. 20' x 20' 6 mil Poylethylene dome cover
Nylon String (to tie around bottom of pool on the outside of the dome cover)

This is a material list for a 3' tall by 12' diameter pool.

Fasten the 162" PVC pieces together where they cross at the center with #12 copper wire. To do that, once they are in position, drill a 3/16" hole thru all the pieces and use the copper wire.

They also say fasten 3 vertical struts to the pool side with copper wire.

The 6 mil plastic overhangs the pool sides all the way to the ground, and out for a ways. You tie the plastic around the pool at the bottom with the nylon string. Then you cover the plastic that is on the ground with a circle of 8" thick sand. That's the reason for the door in the dome - the cover isn't removed or lifted off for access to the pool.

The door frame is a trapezoid made from 3/4" thick by 2 1/2" wide material. The top is 35" wide, the bottom is 57" wide. It is 29" tall, and the sides are at a 22 1/2° out from the top to bottom. The frame is attached to 2 of the dome struts. They show #6x3/4" FH screws (2) in each corner holding the frame together. They don't specify how the frame is attached to the dome struts. The plastic door is attached to the frame by using 4 equidistant snaps on the top, 5 on the bottom, and 3 on each side.

Clear as mud?? grin

If you don't have the book, you really, really need to buy it. It will save you more $$ than the book costs in less than a month.
Scot,

You're a real sport for taking the trouble to post that. I hope Steve appreciates your time.

What do you think of the book?
Yes Scott, quite the tireless trooper you are.

If you want your own copy for free, send me a PM with ship to info. and I'll get it out next week.

I have three. I bought two and SVG sent me a third one free with a thank you note. I'll keep that one!

I was also thinking of what to do with the other one, maybe a contest based on third grade math and history! Could be fun!

Winner gets a free copy!

What do you all think?
Thank you, thank you! PM sent.

Scanning would have been easier, but I use 8 fingers and a thumb, so typing it out didn't take that long! grin
Thanks for the description. I did buy the book. Honest! I couldn't find it and I waited till the very last minute to build the dome in a panic. I knew I was making it a little big when I cut 10 foot pieces in half but I couldn't remember the 57 inches. My error of three inches was multiplied by 8 causing the dome to be two feet larger in circumference. I didn't even bother to measure the 162 inch cross members so I have no idea how far off I was. I'm sure they were way too long. Maybe by as much as a foot. I don't think it really matters as long as it is covered. It just looks really funny and too big.

Do you think it was a mistake in putting the plastic over the filters too? I thought it would help in keeping them extra warm but I suppose it cuts down on the amount of oxygen the fish get.

I was sure that book was going to turn up after I finished the dome but so far it hasn't surfaced.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve


Do you think it was a mistake in putting the plastic over the filters too? I thought it would help in keeping them extra warm but I suppose it cuts down on the amount of oxygen the fish get.



Well the bacteria need to be warm to work at max efficiency. If they get cold enough they could die so no I don't think it was a mistake. In the book the RBC is in the tank itself under the dome.

Do you still have algae? If so they are making oxygen. What are you doing mechanically to produce oxygen?
I have an air pump outside for oxygen. Lots of algae. Not sure if you read what I wrote correctly. I said I covered the filters that were outside the dome. In the book the guy left them outside the plastic. I don't have an RBC just five clarifiers. I thought it necessary to enclose them. Especially since there were five and not two like in the book.
I must have been tired when I read what you wrote. I guess my fish will be fine. The weather is already warming back up and all the ice is melted. My fish haven't come up to eat in over a month. But there's plenty of algae for them. Even the goldfish stopped eating a week or so ago. I wonder if the fish will grow still in the winter if they don't eat. Does winter stunt their growth?
I lost five fish today. first time I looked since the day after I covered it. The water is a little cloudy. Any suggestions besides a partial water change? Unless some sank and died on the bottom I still have 91 of the 100 I started with. With all the algae it's impossible to test for ammonia.
I lost 4 more fish today. I thought perhaps I missed them yesterday because they had algae growing on them but one of them was still alive and had a small patch of it. I took him out as well. The tempature is 45 degrees and it's warmed up a bit. I think the cold is what is killing them but it could be the dirty water so I will try and change it today...my only day off.
I had too much work going on and I waited a couple of days to change the water. When I lifted the cover it smelled really bad. There were a lot of dead and rotting fish on the bottom.

I removed all the dead and dying fish, anybody that wasn't swimming normally. For some reason I didn't lose any of the big fish. Maybe it was the cold. The water smelled decent yesterday. I think it will probably clean it's self back up.

If we have a normal winter I think the rest of my fish will be ok. That was a pretty hard cold snap. But I'm afraid if it gets much colder than that, like it does some years, I am going to loose all of them. Paying for heat is out of the question. If I can find a deal on an aquarium I will bring a few of them in.

I still have a little less than half my fish left. As smelly as that water was had it been summer I'd have lost them all. It's cool that I didn't loose any of the big ones.
What have your temps been? I have had to move ours indoors. We have had a couple of cold nights, in the upper 20's. Kept some to hold over the winter and start breeding next year and threw the rest in the pond.

I have noticed that when the water gets a cloudy look is bad news to the fish.

Fishy smell means dead fish. Learned the hard way.
Cloudy means a bacteria bloom of the wrong kind!
I am sure it was cloudy because of all the dead fish. I thought that I was going to be able to cover them and forget it but I really should be checking on it every day to check for dead ones. Been trying to check every other day at least.

Do you guys feed your fish any in the winter? I haven't fed mine in almost a couple of months.
The few that are kept through the winter are feed far and few between. the water temps in the low 60's.
I am holding some small blue tilapia at 54-60F. They eat a small amount of softened pellet food each day. I leave a few soft pellets on the tank bottom each day and food is gone the next day.
You haven't bought a heater yet?

As the little birdie said, "Cheep, cheep, cheep."

grin
I hold all my tilapia stock in my basement...no heaters and only fed once or twice per week to maintain health, but to prevent growth. No heaters water temp is around 60 during the winter, but it is a finished, fully heated basement. Most of the vents are kept closed (except the wife's office) to keep the kids from using the computer or watching TV for hours on end.....hehehe
So how much food do you feed them if only once or twice a week? Do they slim down due to the lack of food? I think I have my water at 75-77 so I guess I should drop it a bit.

Does the lack of food and colder water help keep the exchanges down as well, I would like to keep from cleaning the tank anymore than I have to during the winter.

Thanks
2.4.1 http://edepot.wur.nl/122037
"The ARC contains a high density of neurons that produce orexigenic peptides such as
neuropeptide Y (NPY), opioids, β-endorphin (β-END), galanin (GAL) and glutamate. α-
melanophore-stimulating hormone (α-MSH), an anorexigenic peptide, is also co-produced with β-END in ARC."

Thank you andedammen, that is exactly what I was thinking too.

j/k, the paper definetely has some useful info

I only feed my fish when they come up to eat. I have a ton of algae growing though so it's not like they are going totally hungry. The goldfish eat on warmer days but the T fish just mope around the pool as if they are barely alive. Last time I checked I had only gotten the temperature up to 48 degrees but it's been really warm the past few days. The wind came up and blew the plastic off the dome that day but it was a warm wind so everything was ok. It must have been one hell of a wind.

I been debating wrapping the pool with a couple of layers of insulation. But that wind the other day made me reconsider. I don't think I will ever raise them again unless it were in a basement or a greenhouse. I don't think this dome is going to keep them warm enough to survive the winter unless I get a heater. I don't enjoy hanging out at the pool now that it has a dome over it and it takes too long to pull off the cover. I am still enjoying my goldfish but unless I could make a dome big enough to go inside of, I'd much rather be raising bluegills or goldfish than tilapia.
Sounds like its time to make some fish sticks, take down the dome, and raise something a little more enjoyable.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve

The goldfish eat on warmer days but the T fish just mope around the pool as if they are barely alive. Last time I checked I had only gotten the temperature up to 48 degrees but it's been really warm the past few days.


At 48* for more than a couple days...The tilapia are ALREADY dead...they just don't know it yet!
It's been five days since I opened the dome. I am afraid of what I might find in there. The local cats had a feast last time. I think I'm going to wait till after Christmas. Assuming they are all dead next time I guess the cats will have another feast. I will pump out the pool and buy a few hundred feeder goldfish to raise and put in my fiberglass tanks next year. The weather here is so much colder in the mornings than in Bakersfield or LA. I started to take off the dome today but as soon as I stepped off the sidewalk my foot sank in the mud from all the rain we've been having. It's a real mess out there. At least it's warm.
Sorry hear that Steve. Might want to get the nasty stuff over with sooner than later, or it will be even more nasty. Dead fish in a tank dont keep well sick Trust Me!

Why dont you try bluegill next time. They should work in your location. Plus, they are good eats!

Make sure you disinfect everything before starting again.

Oh yeah, Clean (scrub) it while it is still wet. Dont drain it and dry it out, then attempt to clean. Not gonna happen, unless you have a huge amount of time.
Try cleaning out 8 165 gallon enclosed tanks of the sticky, slimy, reeking, liquifeid remains of 1800 pounds of dead fish sitting in 95* water for four days....FUN stuff!!!! Put a small amount of Vick's Vapo-Rub in each nostril and a little below your nose....kills all the odor of dead animals. It took 2 hours and 2 applications of Vick's to get the job done...didn't wretch once!
Don"t know how you did it Rex.....My kids baby diapers had me gagging over the toilet.........
The bucket heater could go a long way to sustain temps in your pool.

http://www.farminnovators.com/page501.htm

I opened up the dome the day after christmas and they were all alive. I did remove one fish that was unresponsive when I chased him with the net. We've been having some pretty cold weather since then but not as cold as the first time.
So how are the fish doing now?
Considering the average temps in death valley this time of year, if they are not heated in some way, they're dead.
Youtube - My Tilapia Rock

Here is my above ground swimming pool used for overwintering tilapia. It is 5000 gallon capacity with good filtration and a wood-fired boiler for heat, which currently is keeping my water at 70F while 25F outside. It can handle 1500-2000lbs of fish. We started playing music for them this year, they love rock and roll.
thats awesome!
So Surfsteve any alive?
I haven't checked on them in a couple of weeks. I was thinking I was going to take off the cover in mid February which is only a week away. I took the cover off a week ago and there were three dead ones floating that I removed but. The water was actually looking a little cleaner than before but still too dirty to see the bottom.
Originally Posted By: overtonfisheries
Youtube - My Tilapia Rock

Here is my above ground swimming pool used for overwintering tilapia. It is 5000 gallon capacity with good filtration and a wood-fired boiler for heat, which currently is keeping my water at 70F while 25F outside. It can handle 1500-2000lbs of fish. We started playing music for them this year, they love rock and roll.


What are you doing for mechanical and biofiltration Todd? Is that a stand pipe screen in the middle?

BTW we have a few know-it-alls up here that are pooh poohing using tilapia for algae control in ponds. Never mind they've never tried it or know anyone that does.
I took the cover off the pool and all of the fish left were alive. Looks like I have about 25 or 30 fish left out of the original 100. I honestly expected I'd probably find them all dead. Looks like I may have had some bluegills after all!

I probably took the cover off too soon. I didn't loose any fish the last few weeks when it was cold but it warmed up like spring and I lost 9 fish in the last few days. Honestly since it got warm I thought I was home free from loosing any fish. Why did so many wait till it got warm to die?
Cecil I use settling tanks for mechanical filtration that drop into a biofilter sump with aerated corrugated biofilter material and pumped back to the pool. The circular motion in the pool pulls solids to the middle very effectively. We use a wood-fired boiler to inject a steady low volume supply of 110-120F water to keep them warm.
Originally Posted By: surfsteve

I probably took the cover off too soon. I didn't loose any fish the last few weeks when it was cold but it warmed up like spring and I lost 9 fish in the last few days. Honestly since it got warm I thought I was home free from loosing any fish. Why did so many wait till it got warm to die?


SS, without seeing your particular situation, my first good guess for the deaths would be the warmer temps causing a rapid decay and breakdown of fish and food waste which resulted in a rapid ammonia level increase coupled with a low temperature induced supressed immune system in your fish. Your beneficial bacterias as well as harmful bacterias are not as active in cooler temps. The higher water temps allow the bacteria to rapidly grow and reproduce causing harmful bacteria to infect weakened fish, decay rates increase rapidly and your beneficial bacteria and the fish immune systems are always a step behind in growing as they are reactionary to the byproducts of the more hamful bacteria.
Is there anything I can do besides water change? I thought about adding a little peroxide in the water. It works great for plants and septic systems. I'm going to try a little this morning and probably more if you recommend it.

Update: I googled peroxide and fish and it looks like a lot of people recommend it for algae. I'm sure it will also increase the ratio of friendly oxygen loving bacteria to the anaerobic ones. It also looks like I can add quite a lot but for now I'm going to stick with just a little and see how it goes.
Just found this article

http://fish.bakerweb.biz/peroxide.html

If I'm reading this correctly this guy uses 15ppm of peroxide with no harm to his fish.
Steve, water changes are stressful also. You are raising tilapia and algae is not only a favorite food, it is also a substrate for beneficial bacteria. Algae needs light to grow and if the fish are covered, are you sure it is alage and not a bacterial, mold or mildew colony? When it comes to water changes, do complete ones not partial.

I would not add hydrogen peroxide...try sodium percarbonate "Green Clean", but I wouldn't kill the fish food (algae)
I'm not trying to kill the algae, only the anaerobic bacteria. I read one link that says peroxide kills the black algae and is not so good on the green algae that my fish like to eat. I use it regularly on my septic tank and even brush my teeth with it. I noticed when I used it on the septic tank that it went from being clogged up to being almost spotless. I probably should do a water change but I'm going to give the peroxide a few days and see what it does. After I re read the article I decided to dump the whole quart of 3% peroxide in my 1800 gallon pool. I think I'm only at 5ppm. Being the pool is in full sun I don't think it will hurt my production of algae that much. I'll let you guys know what happens.
Steve, I guees I'm not understanding what your goals are then....a septic tank is in no way related to a fish ecosystem...also, what we do and like can be deadly to the fish...are the tank goals for your benefit or for the benefit of the fish....they seem to be polar opposite.

A prime example of what many people commonly do when it comes to fish is when people that love filtered, soft (filtered reverse osmosis) water think it is great for fish also...for fresh water fish though soft, filtered water it is as bad as it can possibly get for them to live in...
If you have anaerobic bacteria in your tank, you have far more serious problems than the bacteria needing to be addressed...namely and first off, very low oxygen levels...tilapia will eat anaerobic bacteria...there should never be any anaerobic bacteria growth possible in a recirculating system. The second problem, also related to/causing the low oxygen issues, is the need to remove solid waste and the stagnant areas they settle out in.
Originally Posted By: Rainman
When it comes to water changes, do complete ones not partial.


Why should you do complete changes and not partial?

Also does replacing any water that evaporated from your tanks hurt the fish as well?

I have had mine for about 6 months now and want to make sure I can keep them alive another 2 so I can either put them outside in a tank or release them in a pond.

What would be some main recommendations to keep them healthy for the remainder of the time in the house?
Hi all. I still have several fish that made it through the winter.

I put some koi brand calcium bentonite clay I got from ebay in the water a few days ago after changing it and it seems to help keep it clean. I never have to change the water for my goldfish but the tilapia water gets filthy and I have to eventually give in. This last time, a couple days ago, I pumped it down as far as my sump pump would take it down and it was still filthy after I refilled it till I put in the koi clay. I noticed by the next day that it had dissolved all the brown scum around the pool.

I only put a few tablespoons in my goldfish water and it's sparkly clean. My filter pump quit working on my pool so it will be interesting to see what the clay will do. I put a whole pound in the other pool since it was still filthy even after the water change and the white color from the clay still hasn't settled out. But the fish sure seem to be happy and are even eating though I'm hardly feeding them till I can get the water cleanliness situation under control. You were right about the peroxide. It didn't do anything. It only took a day for the goldfish water to clear from the clay. I wonder how much longer it will take for all the clay I dumped in the pool. Has anyone ever used calcium bentonite clay? It's not the same stuff as the sodium bentonite they use to seal the bottoms of fish ponds. It seems to help a lot in keeping the water clear. I don't know if it will be enough for the tilapia though.
I've never used the stuff.
Just remember just because the water is clear it doesn't meant it's perfect.
I just finished changing the water and gave the last dozen or so Tilapia to my neighbor a few minutes ago and he said they were going to have a fish fry for dinner. I'm filling it back up and am going to try and get the water clean enough to raise goldfish. Right now there is about a 1/8 inch layer of brown goo all over everything. 'm trying to decide between waiting to see if it greens up on it's own or putting in a handful of fertilizer and waiting a few weeks.
I threw a very small handful of Ammonium Sulfate in the pool yesterday. For some reason there is no algae growing in the pool. I think it's because of the calcium bentonite clay. I remember last year when I threw in fertilizer. The pool greened up within hours! I've read that the clay prevents algae but I never would have believed how well.

Does anybody have any good ideas for stocking my pool with some plants? I am at least a two hour drive from the nearest lake. I wouldn't mind getting some seaweed from there and seeing if I can get it to grow.

Is there anything I can start by seed maybe?
Surfsteve I love water plants but many look at them as mostly bad. My most favorite plant of all is the yellow water iris. It grows around the edges of your pond in a foot or so of water and on land a couple of feet from the water. It is tough yet beautiful. Given enough years it will invade cattails and start crowding them out. I like spiker rush that grows around the edges of a pond in a foot of water. With these plants you can fish from the bank of you pond and not get hung up. Other plants depend of what you are after. Fishing, looking, experimenting as a laboratory, providing oxygen into your water and food. I have planted the worst plant you could plant in most peoples eyes. Eurasian Milfoil. But the fish, bugs, frogs, turtles and birds loved it. Contrary to what you read that fish won't swim into thick foliage I watched my big fish from high on my deck have a choice of swimming in the clear water or going through the jungle of Eurasian Milfoil and they would choose the milfoil. It grew so thick that when I tried to row a boat I could barely lift the oars because milfoil was hanging on them. My grass carp eliminated the milfoil in 4 years but it was all fun to watch. I also like water lilies a lot. But that’s just me.
I got a swimming pool so there is no bank to grow things. Perhaps the best thing to do is throw in a few scrap tree branches next time I prune. At least till I can get some real plants started. I would kill for some duckweed or some real plants. I just found out that the local petshop about thirty miles away closed down so it's going to be a 2 hour drive to langcaster or Walmart for fish. It's looking more and more like Walmart when I go to restock.

On a brighter note I'm getting a little algae growing on the bottom.
I found out a few days ago that the last pet shop in Ridgecrest closed down. They only had a few feeder goldfish left at Walmart but they were only ten cents. I called the manager of the pet department and told them about my pool and that I wanted a couple hundred of them for my pool. He said that he got them in bags of 250 so we agreed to order a fill bag for 25 bucks. I'm so excited. The fish come in on Friday. Of course!
I'm not sure if I should change the title of this thread now that I don't have anymore tilapia.

Tomorrow will be a week since I restocked with goldfish. The water temperature went up to 92 degrees yesterday and I lost about ten fish. All my friends are telling me that my fish will cook but I know they wont because I raised six goldfish with the tilapia last year and not only did every one of them survive but they outgrew all the ones in the cooler front yard kiddie pool.

As I recall last year I lost about 1/3 of my fish when I stocked the kiddie pool. After the inital shock I've only lost 2 fish and they got caught up in the filtration system when I tried leaving the cover off for better filtration. Bad idea! So far this time, I've lost close to 50 fish but none since I last checked yesterday evening, when it reached a maximum of 92 degrees. This morning the temperature was down to 76. Perhaps that is why the fish were able to survive the high daytime temperatures last year. I was told by a friend that nearly every one of the 500 remaining fish at walmart had died so I guess I am pretty lucky. So far I've lost less than the 1/3 I bought at the pet shop last year. They must ship them under a lot of stress.

I already had to do a water change yesterday. Probably because my 300 watt pump I was using last year to run the filters burned up. Instead of running 5 barrels on a 300 watt pump I'm running 4 barrels on 2, 40 watt pumps this year. My bill went down a lot more than the 30 dollars a month I expected to save when the pump died over the winter.

I noticed this morning that the water is clearer than the day before. I also took the hose and shook loose everything I could in my filters before hooking them back up. I couldn't believe how much sludge came out of them. I even did the kiddie pool filter. I couldn't believe how fast those new fish made the water dirty without the filters. By the next day I couldn't see the bottom anymore.

I am feeding them 6 times a day. Still feeding them cat food that I chop up in the blender. I mix half food and half calcium bentonite clay. Seems to be making the ones in the front yard grow really big. I hope the ones in the back yard can handle the heat. It got up to 96 degrees last year and they made it so I think I'll be ok once these guys get acclimated and over from being shipped from China or wherever walmart gets their goldfish from.

I can't believe how small the new goldfish I just stocked are. They look almost small enough for the ones from last year to eat!
Steve, if your pool is not in the shade, you can add floating 4x8 sheets of styrofoam insulation to keep some of the sun off.
I actually have a sheet of plywood in there to give them some shade to swim under. The Styrofoam would be a good idea for floating plants. I only lost one fish yesterday and it was at the hottest part of the day. The temp only went to 88 yesterday. I think they are over their initial shock of being shipped.

I also carried 60 gallons of water from my kiddie pool and dumped it in the large pool. I noticed the water seems to have a little bit of a black color to it this morning. I don't know what happened but the tilapia really messed up the microbes this winter. I probably should have took down the whole pool and filters and cleaned it but I'm too lazy or busy. I haven't decided which excuse to use yet.
Looks like my fish have stabilized. I only lost one three days ago since my last post.

My front yard was a different story however. Over night the top kiddie pool developed a bad leak. It was hardly anything that night and it looked like the water was all leaking into the bottom kiddie pool before I went to bed. But by the time I woke up there was only an inch of water in the top pool and it was dry to the top of the pump in the bottom pool.

I put a new kiddie pool in and while it was down I leveled the new pool better and got the water fall to cascade more towards the center of the bottom pool.

I don't know if I mentioned it or not but I also added a bird ramp this spring and haven't found a single dead bird or rodent in since I installed it. Come to think of it. That's the other function for the plywood in the back yard pool. I used to have around two bats per month drown in the pool before I added it. Now it never happens. They always seem to make it to the board where they can crawl on top to dry themselves off and fly away.

Since I changed the kiddie pool, now both front and back yard seem to be having dirty water problems. Hopefully that will work it's self out. I live in the dessert where water is expensive and I refuse to change water less than once a month. Lately I been only filling the pool about 3/4 of the way to the top and I don't empty the water to change it till it gets down to half way due to evaporation.

I also read that goldfish were edible. So it's not a total loss. I raised the Tilapia mainly as pets but it's comforting to know if I really had to I could eat either one of them in an emergency situation.

At the way the economy is deteriorating that could be any day now.
I just made this youtube video of my new goldfish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGKGS_iYkRk
Video Description:
These are some common feeder goldfish I bought at wallmart a few weeks ago. They more than doubled in size and have brilliant colors. I feed them a mixture of indoor cat food which I grind up with a blender and then mix in up to one half calcium bentonite koi clay I found on Ebay. I also bought some edible clay for humans on ebay but I actually like the taste and the way the koi clay intended for fishes makes me feel a lot more. I thought about switching clays with the fish but I am afraid giving them the clay intended for humans might negatively affect their health. Fish don't lie man. All these guys get is Algae, Calcium Bentonite Clay and Genetically Modified Cat Food and they are thriving on it. Imagine if they had a good diet! I been taking broken cell chlorella algae for years. I buy mine from the store, unlike the fish... That's where I draw the line!
You have a significant set up there. Who would have ever thought of raising fish in Death Valley?
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Ditto with what Rex said but it can be done. Can I suggest a book called Small Scale Aquaculture by Steven VanGorder? An entire chapter on Tilapia breeding and almost the rest of the book covers systems used to raise them. Even shows you how to build a recirculating aquaculture system, which I built for my basement and is covered in the most recent issue of Pond Boss. The book is available on Amazon.com for about $25.00.






Wow Cecil did you ever get a bargain. Look at the prices now. However, One way to get this book is through your library loan. I have done this many times. I tried to get it for Kindle PC but it's not available.

Small Scale Aquaculture by Steven D. Van Gorder (Paperback - 2000)
1 new from $914.53 10 used from $90.00
Amazon.com


Originally Posted By: John Monroe
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Ditto with what Rex said but it can be done. Can I suggest a book called Small Scale Aquaculture by Steven VanGorder? An entire chapter on Tilapia breeding and almost the rest of the book covers systems used to raise them. Even shows you how to build a recirculating aquaculture system, which I built for my basement and is covered in the most recent issue of Pond Boss. The book is available on Amazon.com for about $25.00.






Wow Cecil did you ever get a bargain. Look at the prices now. However, One way to get this book is through your library loan. I have done this many times. I tried to get it for Kindle PC but it's not available.

Small Scale Aquaculture by Steven D. Van Gorder (Paperback - 2000)
1 new from $914.53 10 used from $90.00
Amazon.com



You can get them directly from the author Steve VanGorder here: Small Scale Aquaculture

22.95 includes shipping.

Steve is a nice guy. I talked to him a few times and sent some emails back and forth. We were discussing HSB and how well adapted they are to RAS and how profitable HSB can be. The only road block is that HSB are not legal in Michigan. I talked with the powers that be in MI, and there was a slim to none chance of getting approval.

Their fear was that a delivery truck could have a mishap and accidently release some into State waters. I did not know Rex at the time, but I could have eased their fears by telling them that Rex dont deliver in MI laugh Just kidding of course Rex!

It really is silly, I have seen these books on ebay for a couple hundred dollars. Even saw some ads claiming that this was a very rare and collectible book. Sucker born every minute laugh
I just ordered mine, thanks
I and now reading "Small Scale Aquaculture by Steven D. Van Gorder" just for general knowledge and enlightenment, but I got to thinking. We have a spa we don't use anymore in a sun room with windows nearly floor to ceiling on three sides and two sky dome windows. The water temperature can be controlled as can the room temp, and it has a one hp circulating pump that has a good sized filter for oxygenating the water. Perhaps add a biofilter. On a sunny day the room stays about 20 degrees warmer then the outside temperature. See any problems with this being use for minnows or Tilapia, if I could get it past the wife?
You need to figure out a way to get solid waste material up off the bottom of the spa and out of the system.
turn it into an aquaponics room! fresh herbs and veggies should go over well, and provide filtration, sounds like a nice mini greenhouse to me

It does seem to have some fun possibilities doesn't it. If I remember correctly there is a powerful suction drain at the bottom that circulates the water through the filter and that might take fish solid waste out but not the liquid waste such as ammonia. That would be a biofilter maybe. I'm just getting into this.

I do remember seeing pictures of a recyclable bio system for growing food and fish. As best as I can remember it was a long troth of water with fish in it. Laid on top of the water was a rubber mat. Maybe neoprene with slits in it to hold plants. The roots grew in the water where the fish ate the roots and took up the fish waste for fertilizing the plants. I have no idea if it worked out.

I am running a side experiment now similar to that in the pond. The container is planted with mustard spinach that has grown and is up about 2" at the present time. The bottom of the container is about 1" below the water line and has a dozen half inch holes in it so the water seeps up into the soil mixture. The planting material is 3 equal parts of potting soil, perlite and vermiculite.



Sounds like a way to get a creatively done aquponics room!

Make sure whatever fish you use, that the offspring aren't sucked into the pump system of the spa.
Rex, in a pond situation, how long before Mama stops hovering over the babies (i.e. letting them take refuge in her mouth)?

One of the orange ones has had babies for 2 weeks now. It's the first sign of baby T in the pond.
Rainman that's what I was thinking that the fry might be sucked through the system. A big upside down dome strainer might be a solution. Just thinking out loud for now. The pump has two speeds, one that would really oxygenate the water and the low speed still bubbles the water some. And it may also have a slow flow control. You can tell it's been awhile since I have been in it. The book "Small Scale Aquaculture" has lots of interesting solutions & projects. Getting this a past my wife could be my biggest problem.


Scott, the length of holding is usually 2-3 weeks from spawn but is directly related to the threat level to, and size of, the fry.

John, a window screen is almost too large to prevent fry from being sucked in to even a small pump...Tilapia fry/fingerlings will swim up and downstream willingly.
Originally Posted By: John Monroe

It does seem to have some fun possibilities doesn't it. If I remember correctly there is a powerful suction drain at the bottom that circulates the water through the filter and that might take fish solid waste out but not the liquid waste such as ammonia. That would be a biofilter maybe. I'm just getting into this.

I do remember seeing pictures of a recyclable bio system for growing food and fish. As best as I can remember it was a long troth of water with fish in it. Laid on top of the water was a rubber mat. Maybe neoprene with slits in it to hold plants. The roots grew in the water where the fish ate the roots and took up the fish waste for fertilizing the plants. I have no idea if it worked out.

I am running a side experiment now similar to that in the pond. The container is planted with mustard spinach that has grown and is up about 2" at the present time. The bottom of the container is about 1" below the water line and has a dozen half inch holes in it so the water seeps up into the soil mixture. The planting material is 3 equal parts of potting soil, perlite and vermiculite.



That's a good idea. I wish that I had started just one plant like that a year ago as an experiment back when I started this thread. Who knows where it would have gone by now? Thanks for the motivation and the idea!
Surfsteve, the plant is looking yellowish. I added some fertilizer into the mixture, maybe too much. I stuck my finger down into the medium and it was wet, so it is getting water. Maybe too much. Getting the right kind of plant is probably critical.

What I am thinking could be tried is taking a square of rubber neoprene 1/4" or 7 MM and slicing some + slits in it to hold seeds or already started plants to be inserted into the + and then laying the neoprene on the water. It would float but yet always be moist and the roots would quickly grow into the water. If the plants would grow too heavy and sink the neo. then perhaps a hula hoop with a water noodle threaded onto it and the neo. in between. Or something to hold the plants in between and it would be a floating island. The noodle/hula hoop with a net hanging in between might be used for fish cage culture also. I was looking at the noodle/hula at Walmart yesterday and a floating hoop could be put together for maybe $5 or a little more.

Now that I think about it I used to water all my plants with fish water a few years ago and stopped because they made them turn yellow. Was never sure why but they recovered when I switched back to tap water.
Steve I am reading "Small Scale Aquaculture" and there are some suggestion on which plants to use that are adapted for water. WATERCRESS, WATER CHESTNUTS, WATERLETTUCE, PHILLIPINE WATER SPINACH. Also the book said some types of plants for raft culture (floating styrofoam) and would be certain tomatoes, but didn't say what kind,, and head lettuce.
The book says plants can be grown in the water but also suggest that the medium they can be grown in is---

4 parts vermiculite
2 parts peat moss
1 part sphagnum moss
1/2 part bone meal (0-11-0)
1/2 part wood ashes (0-9-10
1/4 part sea kelp

A few years ago I went to grocery and bought a bunch of watercress and just pushed the leaves in at the edge of my pond with my fingers and they rooted and took off. Then one day they were gone. I think my grass carp eat them.

By the way, I once took the small shoots of young cattails and pealed the out sides of the stock off to the tender white center, sliced them up and added to salads. They taste pretty good.
Cool idea. I'm going to check and see if our grocery store sells watercress and give it a shot!
Also my fish have been doing really good. Haven't lost any since my last water change almost a month ago. The water in my kiddie pools has stabilized and is staying clear but the old tilapia pool still has not cleared up. Probably feeding them a little too much.

I am thinking of adding some mosquito fish.
saw some on ebay. Not sure if the big goldfish in the kiddie pools are fast enough to eat them or their babies but it seems like a good idea. Also thinking about getting some tadpoles.
I have gotten my stuff together to go after the algae eating Northern redbelly dace in northern Indiana. Chest wader, single person seine, food chest rigged with oxygen pump, pictures and identifying features of the minnow and the exact places in a creek from a 1973 biological survey of fish in this stream. So I will be disappointed if I don't find any. So I'm waiting for the heat to back off. We are on a 7 day run of temp. in the 90's to 100 and the heat index above 100. Yesterday it was 100 with an index of 110 at Indianapolis so this is great FA growing weather.

Last Monday when the temp was in the 90's I made a one minute video of my pond and how the FA wasn't penetrating into the main body of my spatterdock. After Thursday the spatterdock was still holding the FA back. Sunday I will make another one minute video added to the first one for comparison to see if the spatterdock is still successfully holding beck the FA or not, and I will post it. My Curly Leaf pondweed isn’t able to stop FA like the spatterdock does and I have no idea why.
I added some snails and duckweed to my pools two days ago. The snails are fine but half the duckweed was dead by the time I got it. I put it in the pond and by the next morning the rest of what the fish didn't eat was dead. Maybe I will order some more when the weather cools down enough to ship.

I didn't know goldfish liked plants so much. I was looking at fish food and actually the cat food I been feeding them has a lot less meat in it according to the ingredients.

I found out that they really like dried peas if I soak them in water and mash them up for them. I was thinking about feeding them corn meal but that is the major ingredient in dry catfood so I'm probably good on that.
Why dont you just feed them fish food?
I was wondering if the water temperature in a tank/aquarium could be lowered to say 60 degrees to put tilapia into a sluggish inactive hibernation state where they live through the winter eating very little, using less oxygen and producing little waist, much like what most northern fish go through?

Those of you that put in Tilapia to control FA, are they doing the job OK? A concern of mine is would they eat my Corkscrew ell grass? I have read they will eat some water plants.

I am heading north in the morning to hunt down the algae eating Northern redbelly dace minnow.
John, tilapia can and will eat FA. However, I find that they aren't particularly effective after a large infestation gets started. It appears, to me, that they are effective when used with other tools(chemical). And, the often quoted 10 pounds per acre is woefully short.

Essentially I believe that they are a maintenance tool. Do I use them? Yep.
Originally Posted By: esshup
You need to figure out a way to get solid waste material up off the bottom of the spa and out of the system.


What is the best way to get the solid waste material up off the bottom of a tank?

I am having issues keeping it lifted and pumped up. I think I need two kinds of filtration, or a larger biofilter?

I just cleaned my tank out about a week ago and it was dirty after 2 days, alothough it does appear to be a little more clear now.
The way that I see it is that you only have 2 choices:

1) bottom drain and make the incoming water flow in a circular motion to make the solids gravitate towards and then down into the center drain

2) use a vaccum like what is used to suck up stuff from the bottom of a swimming pool.

A tank with a bottom drain going onto a clarifier, then into a biological filter (like a fluidized bed filter) works pretty slick.
or you could use a solids lift overflow.. pipe from the bottom of the pool near the middle out to the edge, up to the water level you want, and out through the side of the fishtank...
a "tee" at the top of the standpipe (before it goes through the pool wall) will help avoide overflowing
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Surfsteve, the book Cecil suggested utilizes upground pools. I also highly suggest you get VanGroder's book. It can often be found on used book sites.


Brand new it's only $25.00. It's a steal for the wealth of information it has. Not difficult to read either like some aquaculture books.


If anyone knows of a place to buy this book that isn't broken (charging from $100-$2500 for this paper back) I would greatly appreciate it. It seems that amazon.com price adjustment bots have inflated the price of this book for every online book store that I found stocking it.
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