I recall that back in March Cecil posted some terrific pictures of algae in his pond -- I believe he mentioned they were mats of dead chara rising to the surface. Hope that's what I have happening in this picture. It's been one tough summer for my pond. Missed one dye treatment when we were gone most of July, and the chara really took off.

I've managed to rake in a lot that is close to shore. This "mound" just seemed to well up in the middle of the pond about three weeks ago -- and thus far has been resistant to the granular copper product I sometimes use.

Anybody know if these are the "death throes" of a chara bed? ... or does it look like I'm going to have to row out in my leaky jonboat and haul the stuff in?

-- Mike in Lexington, VA

Hey mike, good looking pond. how are your trout doin?
I don't know anything about chara, but I'm sure someone who does will chime in.

ML,

I've never had Chara rise to the surface. Typical algae yes. If you can get it out I would remove it.

I just raked out most of the Chara from my trout pond. I have blisters on my hands to prove it. I would have gone inside to get the gloves but I was afraid I would be tempted stop and not complete the job.

And you know I just raked it out a month and a half ago!

Cecil and AP --

Many thanks! I keep hoping this stuff will sink of its own accord when cold weather arrives -- but our winters have been so mild in recent years, it just may keep on growing (as it did two winters ago). No, I guess I better launch the jonboat (it has about 15 minutes of flotation time before its fills and swamps) and see what I can haul in.

Cecil, as you know, this stuff is incredibly heavy -- one hay fork full is like lifting a cubic foot of water.

But on the plus side, my trout have made it through another Virginia summer. Some seem a bit skinny; but most appear to be healthy. Over the past week or so, the trout have begun to crowd out the sunfish and catfish I had been feeding during the latter part of summer.

I'll start fishing my trout again in a week or two. It will be interesting to see if any of the brookies made it through. -- Mike

Mike, good to hear your trout made it thru another summer. Mine are doing ok, the rainbows have grown from 6" to more than 10", and tigers are more than 14". I get a few brookies locally every week so they're various sizes. Now I'm trying to get everything ready for winter.
Is there any correlation between the ph of the water, and chara ?
I have lower ph 5.5 - 6, and don't have chara. Also are you still building a cage for raising brook trout, and what size will it be?

Larry

ML,

I pull mine out with an aquatic weed rake up onto the shore. Not that bad as long as you don't lift up. Once on the shore I use a pitch fork to throw it into a wheel barrow or trailer.

I found an article by Bob Lusk on chara, and water ph. apparently chara will not grow in water with lower ph, at what point it doesn't say.
Mike, have you checked the ph of your water, and would it be possible to lower your ph without damaging your pond, or costing alot of money.
Cecil said because of the water exchange rate in his ponds treatment would be prohibitive, but It looks like you don't have a big water exchange.

I was also told by a fish farmer that Chara thrives in ponds that get a lot of groundwater.

How about putting oak leaves, or pine needles in mesh bags in the pond to help lower ph.? I can,t take credit for that idea I read it on another site.

The last time I had the ph checked, it was almost 7.8; and the total hardness was very high. I don't recall he exact figure, but it was in the low 400's. So, indeed, this is pretty hard spring water; and from what I've read about chara, my pond is just about as good a home as it could want!

Over the past few years, I've sort of arrived at a "truce" with it. I can't really eliminate it, so I just try to keep it in check. I was fairly successful at that approach in 2005; a little better in 2006 and 2007. Chara won this year.

My normal containment regimen is to start early in the year (March or April) with a light application of granular Cutrine Plus at hot spot areas. I usually start applications of a dye (Aquashade) in early May, adding about a quart every 10 days or so. This worked well for almost three years. The chara was pretty much restricted to close-in areas.

There were still extensive chara beds throughout the bottom of the pond, but the reduced sunlight probably served to keep it in check.

One good thing I will say about chara -- it appears to serve as great habitat for aquatic insect life. A minor downside is that it may provide a bit too much escape cover for young-of-year bass and sunfish (also permanent residents of my "trout" pond).

I have an aerial photo of my pond that my son-in-law took last winter. In our family, we've dubbed it "the chara monster." It shows just how complete the chara coverage is in my pond.

By the way, AP, my local building supply has everything I need for the cage I will build ... except the key ingredient, those three-way corner pieces. I was told they are "on order."

I'll post that aerial picture in just a moment. -- Mike

Here's an aerial photo of my pond. My son-in-law is in commercial real estate and snapped a brief series of our place last January when he was getting pictures of some local commercial properties.

Think you can see why we dubbed it "the chara monster" -- almost looks like an evil smiley face! The open areas appear blue-green ... whether that's the residual effect of an October Aquashade dosing, I cannot say. I just hope it's not indicative of accumulated copper! If so, then man you could mint pennies from that pond bottom!



The little wooded area to the right is where the spring stream flows in. That's also the site of an ongoing landscape project my wife and I began a few years back ... it just keeps on going! -- Mike

Mike, thats an interesting problem you have, I bet you've called it other words. I guess if we didn't have problems life would be boring.
Do you thing moving the water horizontally would help, like using a small water pump, or trolling motor?

Larry

Larry --

That's an interesting idea. And honestly I hadn't thought of trying horizontal movement -- could indeed be worth a try.

One possible problem: the thing about chara is that it can spread simply by breaking apart (devious stuff, eh!?). We get some really stiff winds whipping through here from time to time, and my guess is that any broken stem of chara could simply re-establish itself on the windward side of the pond.

No, I think I'm probably going to be locked into a "cold war" with chara as long as there is water in the pond. And I have to admit, there are times in the winter -- when the water is exceptionally clear -- when it's almost attractive.

I think another problem we had this year (besides a missed application of dye) is the family of Canada geese that "adopted" the pond. Don't think we'll be anywhere near as welcoming next year! Man, can they ever "fowl" a small pond! -- Mike

Mike, I remember you saying that your grass carp had gotten too big, and aren't useful anymore. Is it worth putting in small gc every year to help control chara? Many people seem to have good results with them posted on the aquatic vegetation forum.
I'm just relating other peoples problem's, and solutions, but you've probably heard them all.
When you get your cage built are you gonna put in bt this fall, or wait untill spring? I'm thinking of using a small cage to put some of my larger pumpkinseed's in, and see how big I can get them.

Larry

Actually if you completely drained the pond, let it dry out, and refilled, the Chara would probably be back. Its spreads via spores. Only way to prevent it that I know of is to drain, dry, refill and add aquashade. And even then you may get some around the edges.

That said it does hold lots of invertebrates and as you mentioned it keeps the water gin clear.

And one more thing. Copper products do not even work on my Chara. Even with the chelated copper my water is too hard.

Cecil --

I have had some luck with copper -- but not as much as I would like. It seems to work best early in the year. Later applications haven't been very effective at all. I use it as sparingly as possible now, mostly because I used way too much the first season I owned this pond (2002) and before I put trout in.

And I have to wonder sometime if chara doesn't build up a certain tolerance for the stuff.

Larry --

I've considered getting more grass carp. But from what I've read, they're effective with chara while they are less than 20" in total length. Apparently, at that size, they start to switch over to more substantial plants. I can get a permit from Virginia Game & Inland Fisheries to get up to four triploid grass carp for a pond my size (the original pond owner put in eight about 12 or 13 years ago).

A local supplier deals in 8" triploid grass carp -- I'm pretty sure they would grow to 20"+ in their first season; thus I would probably be purchasing them every year ... and that could get a little expensive. And I have to tell you, once they're in a pond, they are probably going to be in there for a long, long time. Very tough fish to remove, in my experience.

The cage I plan will be just about 30 cubic feet, 5' x 3' x 2'. I want to start off with about 25 6"-8" brook trout (just about the size my few remaining channel cats enjoyed as "snack food" last November). If I can get them in by November 15, I would hope to harvest 10" to 12" fish by March 30 or so. A local fellow starting up a restaurant has indicated an interest in purchasing some. He's a first-time restaurateur and I'm a first time fish-farmer -- ought to be interesting!

I'd really love to try cage culture of either blue or Mozambique tilapia -- but Virginia bans "open system" i.e. farm pond, culture of tilapia; they allow indoor closed systems only. I think the sudden appearance of northern snakeheads up in the Potomac drainage a few years back has made the Commonwealth especially cautious with any potential non-native critter that might conceivably establish itself in Virginia waters. -- Mike

Hey Mike, In reference to your fish cage are you keeping it near your spring inlet, and how many pounds of BT do you think is possible in 30 cubic ft.?

Larry

Larry --

I want to place the cage about 15 to 20 feet away from where my aeration system wells up, or about halfway between shore and the aeration. That's a part of my pond that has never frozen over -- and it is in a direct line from where the spring stream enters, but probably at least 150 feet from the spring itself.

Assuming I can stock the cage with 25 brook trout averaging 7" (which might average about 3 oz. each -- and that's a guess), and assuming I lose no more than five (20%) to various causes (or 80% survival), I would hope to get the surviving fish to about 8 or 9 ounces each. So, starting with a biomass of about 4.7 lbs. of trout, I would hope to get a total net yield that would weigh about 10 pounds (20 trout # 8 oz. each). This would be over a span of approximately four months -- I think this may prove to be a bit ambitious, but that's the initial goal at least.

Previous issues of POND BOSS have had excellent articles on cage culture -- so, I'm going to re-read those, plus review the online posts ... and then check back here for wishes of good luck and support! -- Mike

Mike, It sounds like you've done your research. I guess if you have water temps. around 50 degrees you should get maximum growth.
Do you plan on aerating only during the day to keep temps up during the winter?
Your right about the articles in past pond boss issues, they go into detail on building cages, I'll probably build a small one for my pumpkinseed experiment. Good luck.

Larry

Larry --

Many thanks -- Good luck to you as well with the pumpkinseeds (still one of my favorite fish!)

I think the amount of aeration will depend a lot on the air temperatures. I will probably run the system at least 3 or 4 hours each day, during daylight hours.

If water temperatures stay about 45 or above, I'll feed; if they drop, I won't. Toward the end of the cycle, there will probably be a number of days with 60 water temperatures and above. On such days I would run the aeration system all day and night -- plus try two feedings, one early and one late in the day.

Weather is the big unknown at this point. Mild winter, and my weight goal could be realistic. Harsh winter ... well, I'll just try to release the survivors in a part of the pond where they might be able to elude the largemouth bass and big channel cats, at least for a few days. -- Mike

I can tell you that chara will come floating to the top. I have tons of it this year. Copper will work but doesn't do the best job. I'm in the annual process of taking it out and putting it in the garden. It does wonders for the garden.

I can see where chara can become a big problem for small ponds. I have places where it will grow very thick 5 feet deep.

Are you sure it's Chara? I've never had Chara float to the top even when I'm raking it.

My Chara floats up to the top when it starts to die off. I had about 30% surface coverage of a 3/4 acre pond just before Hurricane Ike. With the high winds/waves I have no more surface Chara...its all up on the banks.

Mine is also very thick even in 7 ft water. It seems to keep the water very clear and I get 4+ ft visibility. I am getting some Triploid GC from Overton in early Oct.

I have not tried any chemical control this year. I use well water or falling rain to keep pond level up...I get no runoff due to banks 2 ft higher than surrounding land.

I agree with Cecil, I have seen lots and lots of Chara and a similar genus called Nitella. I have never seen it float. The vascular features are not such that will allow it to float similar to alot of other submerged vegetation. The only way that I know it could float is if it had FA attached or was somehow trapping air or gas bubbles. IMO you have your plants misidentified or TX Chara is a lot different that regular Chara. Some bushy pond weeds look a lot like Chara. Although bushy pond weed also typically sinks when dislodged. A close-up photo of Chara that floated would be very interesting and educational for Cecil and I to see.

What I see floating is actually the chara that had grown up to the surface and then gets burned by the sun as my water level falls. I lose about 1" per day in hot summer time, and this thick floating stuff peaked towards the end of August. If I am real diligent and keep the water level topped off every 2 days, I see less floating...if I go about 8 days between water fills, then I see a lot more. The floating stuff is gooey and brown.

I had Todd Overton positively identify the Chara, however, it was a fresh sample from about 2 ft of water.

My water stats from 12-19-2007 were:
ph 7.5
alk 140 ppm
hardness 80 ppm

I was hoping that the GC will make a dent in it and my algae bloom will come back. Should I chemical control as well ?

I second Archer's comments. I just can't top it off like him to keep it down. I know where the cattle go in the chara is non-existant. They don't eat it but they stir up the water and it kill them.

Is it really "floating" or does it just expose itself when the water goes down? There's a difference.

Hey I'm keeping an open mind on this and please don't be offended. I just can't see the Chara I have floating. Getting thick enough to reach the surface yes and being exposed when the water goes down yes again. However the Chara I have would never "float to the top." I wish it would as it would be easier to remove.

Great masses of the Chara in our pond will float to the surface if we have a normal (hot sunny) summer. These floating islands appear about AUG 1st. Its not the actual chara that floats but the gasses that are trapped in it when it dies and decomposes then breaks loose from the bottom. If I run the boat through the masses with the motor wide open then they will break up and sink but that doesn't really accomplish anything. In a bad winter we have a shortage of DO as a result of all the dead weeds.

Chara is typically coarse stemmed and leafed. I cannot envision how the mat would be tight and dense enough for decompositional gasses to be entrapped and cause it to float. I would really like to see some close up photos of this happening.

I have not seen chara float up like that. What you are describing in the trapped gas and float up is part of the life cycle used by FA. Often both can be in the same pond.

Please see the photos at the top of this post...they are from my pond about 1.5 months ago. You can see how this stuff makes it up to the surface. I wouldn't say it floats up, but once it gets exposed to sun, it dies and becomes brown goo.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=11412&Number=130706#Post130706

Darryl, From the photos which are taken too far from the weed mass for a good visual, it looks to me that the Chara has a layer of degrading or old filamentous algae intertwined through out the top portion of the Chara canopy. The FA will tend to float at the surface on top of the Chara esp as the water receeds and the weed mass is close to the surface. I have seen similar situations in other ponds.

Well, tomorrow I'm going to paddle out in my canoe and take some close-up pix of the chara in my pond ... I've been putting off hauling it in too long now-- I keep on hoping it will sink!

From what I've observed, when chara grows to the very surface it emerges and "sun burns" -- turns white. Then, I have noted on several occasions that filamentous algae will become attached, almost like it's colonizing on it.

When that has happened (the FA build up) over the past couple years, I've used a powdered hydrogen peroxide product that really works well on the FA -- literally dissolves the stuff. The chara? Unscathed, of course! -- Mike

Okay, paddled out this afternoon and got a few more pictures. Hope these are helpful.

By the way, I was going to try to haul a bunch of it in ... but the wind kicked up a bit, so I thought I'd adopt a "wait and see" attitude to see what happens to this mass of chara out in the middle of the pond.

First a close-up



Now a medium shot



And a wide ...

ML - From the first photo, that is Chara. Interesting. Doesn't the wind bow it to shore where it can be drug or raked out?

Bill --
You would think so, since it's not rooted. But what I have out in the middle of the pond this year is almost like a reef. Very dense and heavy -- and darn near immobile!

The only encouraging thing I can report is that it is actually thinning out down below. My pond is very clear and I could see today that the chara is actually quite a bit thicker and wider on top than it is about 4 or 5 feet down. Perhaps there are some gases holding it up a bit. Whenever I smack it with a canoe paddle (in the interest of science, mind you -- never out of frustration), thousands of little bubbles well to the surface; and the chara seems to sink just a bit for a few moments ... and bounces back.

Where it is right now really doesn't interfere with my fishing, I just don't care for the look of a real weedy pond. It's starting to get down into the upper 40's here at night -- that may prompt some chance. -- Mike

Mike, Good info. That helps explain the floatation for me. Gas bubbles probably mostly oxygen adhering to the leaves and stems of the mat are causing it to float. Smacking the mat with the paddle dislodges the bubbles in a small part of the mat. Other bubbles quickly take the place of old bubbles as mat remains floating. My explanation is correct if you break loose a small handfull of the Chara and shake it in the water to release almost all bubbles and put the mat back into the water the handfull of Chara should now sink.

Bill --

I will do that tomorrow. Right now we're getting a good (and much-needed) rain. It's been a long, dry summer -- probably another reason the chara flourished the way it did.

On the topic of dissolved oxygen, I wonder how chara ranks as an O2 producer in bright daylight, compared to regular aquatic plants (or other algae, for that matter). Conversely, I almost shudder to think what the 02 profile of my pond would be pre-dawn without an aeration system! -- Mike

I stocked 3 Grass Carp last year in a 1/2 acre chara infested pond. The TPWD Biologist told me that the GC wouldn't eat it. I talked to the owner last weekend and he told me that he can now fish with lures. He also told me that he has never seen the carp but knows that they are earning their pay.

DD, I see you're surviving. Finally allowed back on line?

Yep, coming right along.

Bill --

Indeed, I compressed a good handful of the chara, and it sank.

Late yesterday, when the wind and rain relented a bit, I decided to heck with my chara-hauling for the day, and decided to try a bit of fishing ...



... first trout of the fall from my pond. I was able to snap this quick picture and get it back into the pond. Seemed to swim off just fine. -- Mike

Mike, that's a beautiful Virginia rainbow, look's about 18 or 20 inches.