Crazy theory #243:

A pond could be managed similar to a BG/LMB, but substitute FH/RES.

It was stated that Redears wouldn't be effective predators for FH, but angling experience seems to indicate that RES will readily take small fish. I routinely catch them on crank baits that imitate minnows.



I theorize that they would do well in a pond with a healthy population of Fathead minnows. As was suggested in another thread, RES would not be effective at preying on large FH due to their small mouth size. Given the heavy spawning of FH, it seems likely that some FH would survive to reach a large size with RES as the only predator. The large FH that survive to spawn each spring and fall would produce enough offspring to make their survival a likely thing. It may be possible that the RES would get so huge that they could take a large FH. I would like to have this problem.

The FH population could be controlled fairly easily. They can grow very quickly with an abundant supply of food such as pellets, and this would allow the pond manager to directly influence FH biomass by adjusting the quantity of feed. They can also be trapped easily and in large numbers if the population gets out of control. Free FH seem easy to find homes for.

RES numbers could be controlled by a few different influences. They would probably eat some of they're own fry, and a FH population that includes individuals approaching 4 inches in length might prey on RES fry with some success. I believe RES don't reproduce as quickly as BG or LMB, creating less of problem with overpopulation.

Just exactly how crazy is theory #243?

Only about 4.5 on the Weird-Stuff-O-Meter (1 to 10 scale).

It would be interesting to try (first) in a small pond. IF you can effectively control FHM number as needed, I think you'd have a grasp on the hardest control method required. RES are the only Lepomid NOT reported to overpopulate and stunt. There numbers should be easy to control in a small pond.

The biggest question is probably how well RES can feed on FHM; if you are adding some Redears to that FHM pondlet, you should be able to provide a big chunk of the answer after seeing how they do..

Thanks Theo, this pond is tiny at about 65 X 130 X 10 feet. Any suggestions about how many RES to stock?

With the good FH population already there I would like to stock fairly large fish. I'd also appreciate any recommendations about where to get the stockers. I'll drive 150 miles if I need to to pick them up.

Maybe 1/4 acre ...

If you can get adults (I would prefer too, if their FHM forage base is established), 30 mixed sex?

Just a WAG, GW, but freely given and worth every penny.

GW - If we assume your theory is correct that RES will be able to forage and adequately grow on a high percentage diet of small FHM then stocking 125 to 150 in 1/4 acre is not an unreasonable number.

I assume that you want to utilize the RES as some sort of harvest plan. If you only stock 30-32 juvenile, or young adults or adults then you will have to wait a few extra years until their first spawn has grown to harvestable size for you to get a decent return or crop of RES. This ASSUMES the spawn of the adults survives. Considering the reproductive capacity of the FHM and the food consumption rate of each adult RES, one should be able to stock a lot more RES or WM than 30. Stocking of 30-32 adult RES could result in an overpopulation of FHM from the begining. An early overpopulation of FHM could cause uncecessary early management problems of having to harvest FHM, unless that is a goal.

I suggest that you initially stock two or three year classes. This will set the pond up as a somewhat established population where three size groups will begin growing right away by foraging on the plethora of various sizes of minnows.

If you or someone does this, for me, it will be interesting to see, if the adult fatheads will have any significiant predatory pressure on the fry of the RES. If one sees very little recruitment of RES in the presence of high numbers of FHM, then one can assume that the FHM are feeding heavily on the RES fry as they leave the nest.

The literature indicates that FHM will NOT significantly impact RES survival due to predation of RES fry. Most of the literature indicates FHM will at times consume lots of small insect larvae including mosquito larva (up to 90% of diet). The literature that I have, does not indicate that FHM consume fish fry. But I think if FHM eat insect larvae, then when FHM numbers are high in a small pond, collectively as oppurtinustic feeders, they could eat large numbers of fish fry when fish fry are readily available. Thus, RES survival could be impacted by loss of some or high numbers of fry to FHM AND by high numbers of FHM overgrazing the rotifer and crustacean, nauplii, zooplankton thus limiting RES fry survival. Fish fry traditionally feed heavily on rotifers and nauplii as first foods.

I initially think that recruitment of FHM would outpace the ability of RES to eat FHM. This would be an interesting project. If I had an extra 0.1-0.2 ac pond it would be an interesting short term project.

My vote is for FH , RES and WM. My guess 12 RES and 20 WM adults. Just a guess FWIW. Manage by human removal/addition as needed.

Thanks. I like the idea of stocking different age classes. I'm going to do this. I'll start looking for the RES immediately.

GW - Please keep us informed about the progress of your RES-FHM experiment. Inquiring minds want to know.

An initial search for info indicated that WM tend to eat more fish than RES.

RES fry are 4.8-5.1 mm long and at least some mosquito larvae are 3-4mm long. Both are similar sized thus potential foods for adult FHM. Anyone know the mouth gape of a 3"-4" FHM?

COMMENT. As I think about the RES and WM, I question the ability of the RES to effecively feed on small fish even notably slow swimmers as the FHM. RES like BG are morphologicaly similar body shape and in shape of pectoral fins. Studies (Bluegills, Biolgy and Behavior by Spotte) have reported BG and RES are masters of maneuverability, partly due to the shape and position of the enhanced pectoral fins. Compared to trout or bass, these fish are better suited for excellent stability, rapid short axis turning, braking, and maneuvering in tight places which makes them very efficient at feeding on organisms located on or crawling on objects and not well adapted at short bursts of speed for chasing fleeing prey such as small fish. Thus, I question the ability of the RES to effectively feed on small (3/4"-1.2") FHM minnows. However, compared to the BG-RES, the WM has a more streamlined body, somewhat smaller (shorter) pectoral fins and a larger mouth which would allow for better suction-ram feeding. Thus, I think the WM would be slightly better adapted than the RES to catch small swimming minnows. This is confirmed in the literature where fish are often noted to be a larger portion of the diet for WM compared to RES.

I would be happy to keep you all informed. To date I've released 6 WM into the pond, 3 @ 3 - 4 inches and 3 @ 5 - 6 inches. I would like to keep adding WM as I collect them, but I might be convinced to stop if it will yield better information.

I've also recently stocked my new pond with about 300 FH collected from Mr H's pond. I haven't established how big my pond is yet, but Mr H, an 85 year old farmer, says it looks to be about a half acre. I'm willing to try this same test in my pond without WM for a few years. One thing to consider is that Mr H's pond is upstream from mine. Fish can't migrate upstream into his pond, but they can migrate from his into mine.

Bill I just noticed the additional comment in your last post. A few days ago I spent about 15 minutes on the phone with Bill Hartley from Hartley Fish Farm who was recommended by AaronM for large RES. Mr. Hartley routinely stocks FH, RES, and LMB together into ponds and I believe the goal is to raise larger fish for stocking. In Bill's opinion his RES are primarily eating FH. It's possible I could have been confused, but when I explained what I wanted to try with FH/RES he believed it would work. He did encourage me to add LMB to control the RES but I think his perspective is based on draining his ponds every few years so LMB spawning isn't an ongoing issue.

GW -- it will sure be fun to have you try and then report to us! Given the lower reproductive potential for redears, this might just work. If not, you can always introduce some adult LMB and correct the situation. I've yet to find a biologist who has ever seen a "stunted" redear sunfish population. You can give it a good test.

GW,
you're not crazy at all, in fact you might be brillant! Could someone please draw up a food pyramid with LMB on top and how many lbs of phytoplanton or whatever it takes for the lower tier of the foundation. Then let's create a new feed pyramid with RES as the top predator, no LMB. I bet the pond to plate harvest could quadruple!

Now, I have a dry hole, 110'x 60'x 8' just north of you across the line in 'Bama. The pond was dug 18 months ago, start of the drought, now it's raining; can't wait to see if it'll hold water come this April. (I live in Bakersfield, CA) GW, I gotta copy your plan, advise advise please.

To alvieate my frustration, got me a 150 gal fish tank, and stocked it with large Columbian snails, GAMs, FH rosies, ghost shrimp, crawdads, and a male RES. He's about 10.5 in. at 18 months. He also enjoys king size mealworms,(and their larva; not superworms)and crickets during the summertime. He hits birthing GAMs when they slow down from their stress, hard tearing a chunk out, then exams 'em before gulping. Strangely, he takes the biggest 3"+ bull (most dominant) rosies in the dark after I turn the light off. You can hear him breaching. He looks pretty glutanous with half a rosie sticking out for an hour or 2. If I clip a 1" rosy's tail back 1/16th", he'll pick it out and take it hole. He has interesting feeding habits and I can't figure much of it.

GW, I've heard that GAMs will feed on RES eggs and new larva. Also, if you have a wide 10'+ clay core and clay sub-layer in your pond, consider crawdads as a forage food. I may be right behind you if my pond holds water, cross your fingers!

Thanks guys, this should be fun.

Dave I agree that I can always add a larger predator later, but my choices will be Chain pickerel and Florida Gar.

SoSauty, I loved reading about your bad boy RES. Please send him and about 100 others just like him to my place...

I made several calls this weekend in search of large RES. I have one source but it requires overnight shipping and the price of 4-7 inch fish is about $150 for 30. I'll have to see if I can find some locally. Hopefully Dave Wallen in Brandford, FL can set me up. I think he said 2 pound RES might be available, but price is a problem again at $4/lb. I think the price is fair, but I'll have to limit myself to medium fish.

Since I haven't added WM to my pond I'll do my best to stock only RES. I really want to add several species, but maybe I can resist.

I just spoke with a fish farmer that's located along my route home from Daytona. He has small RES and WM for $.25 each. I was amazed that he raises WM fingerlings and asked him about it. He told me the WM aren't very popular but he has a small number of "old timers" who buy them. He said the WM customers are always over 70 years old.:)

How many WM/RES fingerlings should I get for the two ponds?


Mr H's pond: 1/5 acre with a heavy FH population and 6 (3-7") WM. I will still want to add adult RES and WM as I catch them or as they become available to purchase.


My pond: 1/3 acre with 400 newly stocked and spawning FH, with more available from Mr H's pond. It may be interesting to only stock RES with the FH in my pond for now, but I'm open to suggestions.

GW -- I'll "bite." Hopefully, you'll get other input as well, as I'm just guessing at some numbers to get us started.

Small fingerling BLG, we usually go at least 1000/acre. Redears always seem to go in lower. If we guessed at 500/acre, then your 1/3 acre pond would take about 170?? Probably could go up to 300 or so, given no other fishes?

I'm more concerned about the WM. I suspect a greater chance for them to overpopulate and stunt? Again, I don't really know. I've only caught a few in my life (southeast KS).

Other thoughts from the forum????

GW my guess depends on what you think the odds of catching or buying adult RES and WM this spring/summer. Assuming you will be able to add adults as noted , I would go slow on the 2in fish. 50 RES and 25 WM in Mr. H's - 75 and 30 in your pond. Reasoning - if you get adults in both sexes before Aug they (some %) will spawn given the under stocked population. If so you will have more than you want at the start. If not you can add more as needed. I would start slow so they will have room to grow. My guess is the WM need room in the pond to thrive.

GW - I have seen standard 8-1/2" BG eat 4"-5" red tailed shiners with their small mouth size.

If the fatheads do get wiped out good by the RES they are easy and fairly inexpensive to restock in large numbers. One could also siene small RES out to if they do get too numerous.

I did finally talk with our neighbor about his GSF only pond and he said he didn't think they ever had a stunting problem. It sounded as though they regularly harvested "hand sized" GSF. Keep in mind his rationale for GSF only was that his pond is very shallow and he wanted to have a place where kids could throw a bobber out and catch a fish in 30 seconds or less. His management goals have been to have a place where kids would not get bored while fishing, size was not a concern or goal with his pond. I did learn that they added a few BG two years ago after his grass carp died, so a hybrid BG pond is in his future.

I believe I'll only stock RES in my pond for now and wait to add WM. That way I can test the FH/RES idea.

ewest, if I put RES only in my pond would you recommend 100 fingerlings? I do hope to stock larger RES whenever possible also.

Shorty, I'll be happy if the RES dine on the largest FH.

GW - This is a difficult question to answer since you are exploring a new, untested, and unproven fish combination. The general rule for stocking fish is the larger the stockers the fewer that are stocked. So unless I know what size you are stocking the harder it becomes to give a specific number. As always there are a lot of, "it all depends" with just about every situation; yours is no exception.

So from your PM to me, I will assume you want to stock both RES & WM. Dr Dave is correct WM tend to be more prolific than RES.
Ave egg numbers of RES are 7.5" = 16K, 8.5" = 21K and 9"-9.5" = 26K.
Ave egg numbers of WM are 4.5" = 29K, 5.5" = 53.5 K.
Thus WM tend to be more productive than RES. Thus I would stock about 25%-33% fewer WM than RES.

If you want slightly faster growth then I would slightly decrease stocking numbers suggested by Dr. Dave (500/ac) to around 300-400/ac assuming you are stocking 3"-5" fish. If good to average growth then use his 500/ac.

In your PM to me you indicated you wanted to stock WM & RES. These double questions make answers more difficult.

Dr Dave mentions that - ""I've yet to find a biologist who has ever seen a "stunted" redear sunfish population."" There is a 1/3 ac pond near me with only RES, yellow perch (YP) and maybe still some fathead minnows remaining. No larger sport fish predators. The pond is around 10 yrs old. I think the YP have a diet as heavy or heavier towards fish than WM. There is basically no fish harvest on this pond. I have fished the pond several times to sample it with my angling method. I conclude the pond has too many fish (mostly YP) - most of them too small to be, IMO, a quality fishery, i.e. too much biomass tied up in small vs the number of larger quality or preferred sized individuals. IMO this pond needs fish removed or harvested by some method - predation, trapping or angling. I have spoken with the pondowner (against LMB) a couple times where I suggested he introduce a non-reproducing predator to his pond. To date and to my knowledge he has not done this.

Shorty mentions -" I have seen standard 8-1/2" BG eat 4"-5" red tailed shiners with their small mouth size." I do not doubt this. But I think it was the rare exception and does not happen very often. I assume the red tail shiner was for some reason an easy meal for that BG due to shiner injury, senility, special circumstances or "bad luck". From my experience - I doubt that a normal population of RES could ever by themselves eliminate a FHM population. RES (and BG) are not "designed" to eat fish, not even slow swimming fish such as FHM. It is not a preferred food even in an ideal setting such as lots of FHM present. Thus I doubt that a non-stunted, normal, harvested population of RES could eliminate all the adult FHM breeders from a viable, healthy FHM population. GW may be able to provide more info on this topic. What is more likely to occur than eliminating the FHM is the RES become too abundant in a smaller size class such as the 3"-5" size class.

Thanks Bill. I'm probably confusing the issue by talking about two different ponds in this thread. In my pond I'm willing to try RES without WM. I haven't seen the available RES fingerlings yet, but I've been told they're about 1.5 inches.

I've got to place my order in a few minutes so that I can pick it up on the way home. So far I'm thinking 100 RES fingerlings for my pond, and then I'll see what adult RES become available later.

I got the impression that the fish farmer likes to sell fish by the 100's so for Mr H's pond I'm thinking of getting 70RES/30WM.

Very good assumption Bill! We bought the red tailed shiners to catch LMB, the previous day we were bobber lobbing fathead minnows for LMB and catching mostly BG so the next day we bought larger bait to avoid catching BG again, we were suprised to catch mostly BG again even with the much larger red tail shiners.

GW like Bill I don't think the RES will eat all the FH. I still would go with fewer RES/and or WM as the generally recommended stocking #s are ,in my opinion ,not applicable. Those recommended #s are designed where the stocked fish are being stocked for forage. You are not using the RES/WM as intended by the recommendation thus I would treat them as somewhat akin to a predator and not as a forage stocking.

I think you need a predator in your pond other than RES but it may well work without one.

My thought process. If I wanted large BG as the dominate fish I would not stock them at the high forage recommended #s but at lower rates. Same thing for WM or RES just slightly different #s. I would try to have some adults in at the start to suppress their own offspring through cannibalism and dominance behavior suppression.

Bill -- so what was the size structure of the RES in the 1/3 acre pond with the overly abundant YEP?

I'm still a little lost about stocking numbers. I stopped by Shongaloo Fisheries in Hampton, FL and got some fish from Joel. I got 170 - 1.5 inch RES and 30 1.5 - 2.5 inch WM. I'm keeping them in a tub with aeration tonight and I'll stock them in the morning.

EDIT: The fish will be split between the two ponds and I don't need to use them all. Any extra fish will go into a third pond.

Mr. H added two 7 inch WM to his pond today bringing the total to 8 adults. Of course he has copious FH. We'll keep adding whatever adult RES/WM we can to his pond within reason.

I have roughly 400 adult FH transfered recently to my pond. (That's before the big white bird started visiting.) I can get large RES and I'm just waiting to find a decent price. I may be able to get them as large as a pound from Walen Aquafarming.

If anyone wants to throw out a specific strategy I won't complain if it fails. ewest, I think you're down for 50RES/25WM in Mr H's pond. I'm only doing RES in my pond if you want to throw a number out for that.

FWIW, GW, I'd go WM-free in the one pond as a control. I doubt it would be all that hard to bring a RES population under control (if it actually got out of control) introducing predators later.

GW you have 120 remaining RES. I would put 75 in your pond with the 400 FH and see what happens. If you can get up to 20 adult RES to add this summer you should be all set to test this theory. If the FH #s look to be getting low add a few more.

Theo, my pond will remain WM free for now.

Thanks ewest.

RES as small fish 1"-3") readily enter fish traps so they could also the thinned that way to help reduce their numbers. I suggest you periodically check on the numbers of FHM by setting wire minnow traps and compare the numbers and sizes caught in each trap set over time. Note numbers of FHM caught will naturally vary during the different seasons.

GW - ewest has in his earlier post suggested 75 RES (225/ac) in your pond. Use that number or up to 130 RES (390-400/ac) in your pond. You have to start with some number around 75-130 will probably not make a lot of difference either way in your case. You can always remove or add as they grow. A good number would be 75-100 (1.5" RES) and then add around 20-35 adults this summer.

Dr. Dave.
Of 47 fish sampled in Aug 05, 2003, 57.5% were YP and 42.5% were RES.
YP 3"-5" = eleven, 5.1"-7" = 6, 7.1"-10" = 10.
RES 3"-4" = 16, 4.1"-5" = 2, 5.1"-6" = 2.
If it would be a benefit, I can go back again this early summer and resample. This time include my traps and angling. The pond has some submerged weed growth which probably hinders YP preying on small RES.

Since RES will fill the normal role of LMB in my pond I thought about taking recommended LMB stocking rates and multiplying by a factor of 5 to compensate for the size difference. The average rate for LMB seems to be about 75/acre, but I don't know what you all typically recommend. 75 X 5(size adj) = 375 X .4 acres = 150. The total would be 100 if you use 50 LMB/acre as the guide.

GW that recommended rate of 100 LMB per acre is with 2in fish and with BG as the forage base along with FH which have been in the pond for a few mths.

I would not plan on 5 RES taking the place or serving the same role as one normal growing LMB. Time will finish this story.

GW I don't expect you to have problems with the RES and FH. Use a trap or seine to adjust #s if needed. Feed some pellets to keep the FH in good condition. BSF , crickets or worms can be used to supp RES food or you can try to feed train them. You don't need to have a LMB replacement -- that is your part of the equation at the top of the food chain.

Bill time will finish all of our jobs here - each in his own time.

"BSF , crickets or worms...." What is BSF? It is not in the acronyms topic of the Archives.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=111263&fpart=1

I added a whole new INSECT ACRONYM category to the acronym post in the Archives. Currently the Black Soldier Fly is the only entry. If anyone can think of other insect acronyms we use, let me know.

All the worms
red
wax
night crawlers
catalpa

It's more accurate to use BSFL when discussing the larvae and not the adults. (L = larva)

Maybe add meal worms and tent catepillars?

I have a colony of meal worms going. They're quite easy and carefree to raise.

I've had great luck at times using tent catepillars for bait. They're MUCH easier to find than catalpa worms.

I stocked Mr H's part of the fish order into his pond, but I haven't added any fish to my pond yet. I have the remaining fish in an aquarium. It's a little crowded, but the fish are eating very aggressively. I've given them mosquito larvae and they go crazy for them.

One problem is that I'm sure there are some WM mixed in and they're so small that identifying them is difficult. I'm considering putting them into a floating cage and raising them to a larger size where I can ID them better.

That made me think about feed training the RES. On one hand my goal with this pond could be the biggest RES as soon as possible which seems to indicate feeding. OTOH this might add an additional factor that takes away from our understanding of the relationship between the FH and the RES.

Please comment if you have a preference for feed trained RES for this test or not.

I'll start looking into cage design for something quick and cheap. The fish are in only 10 gallons of water now, but they seem to be in decent health. I've got strong aeration in the tank and I'll do frequent water changes until I get them settled.

GW, my understanding is that RES do not feed train easily and cage culture with RES is high on the difficulty scale. Maybe Bruce or Bill Cody can explain why.

Thanks Shorty. I would consider feed training if it's reasonable, but my main reason for keeping them in a cage is to grow them to a size where I can ID them better. I can accomplish that by getting them to about 2 or 2.5 inches. If they won't take pellets I can get some BSFL going in a hurry and there are a ton of mosquito larvae around.

I'm also considering keeping them in a 55 gallon tank until I can ID them.

Maybe feed training the RES wouldn't skew the results all that much. If the RES ate pellets they would prey on the FH less. In that case more pellets = more FH. On the other hand if the RES don't take take the pellets the FH would, still resulting in an increase of FH.

Btw, the RES, which are closer to 1.5 - 2 inches, and taking pellets in the aquarium already. I have some Grower 400 and I had to crumble them, but they're going for it.

Edit: I was rereading this thread and was surprised that I posted the length of these RES at 1.5 - 2 inches. I distinctly remember them being 1.25 inches long. Then I read my post a few posts down and I saw that I referred to them as the proper length. Don't know what I was thinking about when I typed this!

GW:

I don't consider RES hard to feed train. They sure won't take pellets for squawt without being trained, but I had really good luck with pellet training and IMO pretty good retention of pellet eating afterwards.

Cody is working on a method to differentiate BG and REs at a very early age. He could probably tell you how to idenify RES versus WM.

I thought of one possible way to sort them. If I put single fish in a white bowl with very little water I think they would take on darker colors which might help ID them. I think the WM are more purple.

It would be a simple matter if they would only keep their mouths wide open.

You should be able to recognize a larger mouth on the warmouth compared to the RES. Also the pectoral fin of the warmouth will extend to noticably shorter than the beginning of the anal fin whereas the pectoral fin of the RES will extend back slightly past the beginning of the anal fin. Pectoral fin shape of RES will be longer and more pointed compared to shorter and more rounded pectoral fin of warmouth.

Agreed...
Our RES have become self feed trained, but on sinking pellets.
I would venture a guess that many have feed trained RES and don't even know it.

Encase a AQMX pellet in ph on a hook heavy enough to sink the "fly" and you may be surprised at the results.
I sure was....

"Btw, the RES, which are closer to 1.5 - 2 inches, and taking pellets in the aquarium already. I have some Grower 400 and I had to crumble them, but they're going for it."
---------------------------------------------------------------
GW does the 400 seem to sink quicker to you? I am messing with some GS FH and a couple LMB in an 800 gal holding tank and it (400) seems to start sinking immediately. The next RES I catch will be added. I am getting ready to reread and look at possibly feed training some crappie and FHs mixed. Thinking a RES FH to start and adding Crappie and later HSB. Then to push the envelope 30 or so female LMB.
George the self training aspect is exciting and hoping for similar results!(Crappie and RES).

Wow George, that's a chubby Shellcracker!

ahvatsa, the Grower 400 floats a long time for me. In the aquarium it gets knocked down by the strong aerator I'm using. I haven't seen them go to the surface for pellets, but some of them will for mosquito larvae.

Bill, thanks, I guess I need to get a magnifying glass. I have to use reading glasses and seeing small details like this can be tough for me.

Yesterday I stocked 100 RES into my pond with an average length of 1.25 inches. There may have been a few WM in the bunch, but I did my best to sort them out. I decided not to feed train them so that the test will be more basic.

Very cool project, I too would be very interested in the results. But don't think for a minute that the fish in a lower pond won't migrate upstream in extremely swift runoff. My male only CNBG project was contaminated that way with GSF and BH the first time it overflowed around the spillway.

That's interesting FT. How far did the fish have to swim to get into your pond? Downstream from my pond is a tiny seasonal drain and the closest year round water is probably about 1/2 mile away. I have no doubt that what you say is true, but if I'm lucky I'll have a while before other species can enter my pond that way.

Mr H's small pond which is the FH/RES/WM pond is even safer than mine against migration of outside fish because they would have to pass through mine first.

I'm sure you all can appreciate how I feel now that there are 100 baby Shellcrackers cruising my pond in search of food.

My small pond is only 30 yards above the main pond but the main pond is 100 yards above a dry creek bed and that's where the original contamination started. I have no idea how far the greenies and bullheads traveled up the creek bed but I’m sure it was a considerable distance. The main pond was cleaned out in the summer of 06 and what water was left treated with hydrated lime until it turn crystal clear and the crawfish and bugs all croaked so I should have started fresh and clean. I also stocked from a reliable source so I know that wasn't the point of entry. So unless you believe in the stork theory (wading bird) the only point of entry was from spillway runoff.

For my pond (>.5 acre, 400 recently stocked FH, 100 1.25" RES) do I need to wait before stocking adult RES? Bill and Eric, you both mentioned summer when you advised about adult RES, but is it important that I wait? If I got them soon would they have a good chance of spawning? If so, would that be good or bad or neither?

If they are adults and have not spawned this year and you put them in they will most probably spawn. My concern is with the food supply. Is there enough for them to eat in a new pond? Plankton bloom yet ? My suggestion would be if you are going to add them in the next mth or so then cut the number in half , add some more FH and start feeding some pellets including some sinking pellets. Add all those craws and some snails if you can get them from the other ponds and put a little hay (1 small bail divided into 6 portions) to spread around the pond to sink for stuff (snails and inverts) to grow on. Might even add a 5 gal bucket of water from the other pond to seed yours.

I just "inoculated" my new pond with 5 gallons from the old pond last Saturday. Maybe it will help out with zooplankton, as judging from the greenish color of the new pond, it seems to be doing well wrt phytoplankton.

I know that most biologists will tell you that it's probably not necessary, but I think "inoculating helps get a head start in a brand new pond on getting a diverse early crop of zooplankton. Just make sure that the donor pond doesn't have unwanted plant species that you're also inoculating.

Thanks all.

My pond has a fair amount of fry from the FH I stocked recently and Mr H's pond is teeming with them. I think I'll have to trap a good number from his pond just to keep them in balance. That said I don't think FH will be in short supply.

Whenever I transfer FH from his pond to mine I always take a few gallons of water from the weedy area of Mr H's pond. Besides that his pond is above mine and has overflowed quite a lot in the last month. I think this has resulted in my new pond being more seasoned than most ponds of the same age.

I think I'll add some hay like ewest said, and trap some crawdads. I don't see many snails in the local ponds or creeks. Could it be that the water is too soft or acidic?

I have about a billion small black tadpoles in the pond, I think from tree frogs. I put a few tiny ones in the aquarium with the RES and they spit them out.

In my pond (FH/RES) I'm thinking that Gambusia might be a good management tool under certain circumstances. If FH continually overpopulate I could add Gambusia to control them. There are plenty of FH fry in my pond now, and if I had Gams I'm sure they would be feasting on them. I suppose the Gams would also prey on RES fry as well. Would the RES prey on Gams at all?

I may not have a choice about the Gams because they usually stock themselves around here.

If I reach the point in this test where I need a larger predator to control RES I think I'll try Chain Pickerel first. When they are smaller they would prey on the FH also and then they would have to target the RES as they got larger. CP are native to GA and the world record of 9 lbs 6 oz is from here. They often live is swampy water so I imagine they would be fairly tolerant of warm water/low DO.

I have 10 RES (from the batch I stocked into my pond) in an aquarium. Today I added several FH fry to the tank and I can tell you without a doubt that RES adore FH minnows. This leads me to believe that the only reason RES don't normally feed much on fish is because of a lack of appropriately sized prey. Other Lepomis quickly outgrow the minimum size required to fit in a RES mouth so in most ponds that leaves bugs and snails.

I think my biggest challenge with this project is going to be supplying my small RES with adequate forage once the FH quit spawning. Maybe I should stop feeding the FH in an effort to keep them smaller...

That's good information. Thanks.

GW FH are fractional spawners and will keep spawning for a while. Just keep adding them and feeding them.

Thanks ewest, that sounds great.

I love this thread GW. I appreciate you researching this thing for us.

Thanks Bruce.

Here's an inspirational video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdI8wiX2Qf0

Beautiful male redear. That got me fired up!

Here's a link to James thread on RES ponds:

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=114021#Post114021

It may be confusing, but this thread is about 2 ponds, mine and my neighbor's (Mr. H) small pond. Mine is only going to have FH and RES for a few years.

On 3/20/08 I stocked 100 (1.25 inch) Redears, and then a few weeks later added 10 more from the same batch which I was keeping in an aquarium.

Today I added 8 adult RES ranging in size from 5 - 7 inches. They all came from Mr H's big pond.

Cool video, GW. I guess that 3rd one decided the bucket was a better home. I guess he figured you'd just hand-feed him the FHs in there.

I always love it when someone "let's freedom ring!"

GW,

If you need any larger RES let me know. I live in WC GA. and would be happy to donate some from my pond. They are spawnjng now
and can be caught without to much effort.

David

There was another one in there and they both decided the bucket was the best spot. I eventually had to evict them.


I would love to get some RES from another pond David, I'm thinking it might help improve their genetics. I also noticed you said "larger". Larger is good...

I still need about a dozen more adults (using ewest's numbers) so I would be happy to take some off your hands. Thanks, and please let me know if it can be arranged.

GW,

contact me by email dpendergrast@jbyrealty.com

david

Today I was feeding the FH and I noticed some of the fingerling RES hanging a few inches below the surface. They appear to be almost double the weight they were when I stocked them a little over a month ago. I saw at least 3 individual fish and they were a minimum of 2 inches long and possibly as much as 2.5 inches.

I was curious about why they were so close to the surface. Maybe it was because that's were a lot of the FH fry are. I watched the first RES for a few minutes hoping to see it preying on fry, but all I observed was an adult FH chase it away.

I moved further along the bank and saw 2 more RES at the same depth. They were about 8 feet out, but the sun was shining bright overhead so I could see them pretty well. I also wear polarized sunglasses every time I go to the pond. I noticed that one of them seemed to have something in it's mouth and it was working it's gill covers pretty hard. Then, whatever was in it's mouth swam out quickly and made it about 8 inches before being recaptured. I hoped it was a FH, but I couldn't say for certain. There are tons of small tadpoles in the pond now and it could have been one of them.

I kept watching and in a few minutes the prey escaped again, but that time I was able to see it more clearly and I believe it was a yoy FH. It was too far away to see detail, but the sun hit the fish's side and the flash of light was what you expect to see from the scales of a fish. I estimate that it was .75 inches long. This time when it escaped, the minnow went deep and I didn't see the RES recapture it.

One or two minutes later I saw the fish come back to the surface with what I assume was the tail of the same minnow sticking out of it's mouth. This time I was only about 5 feet from the RES and I'm relatively certain it was the same fish, a little further along in the process of eating the same FH. I couldn't see the details of the tail, but the RES had something in it's mouth and it was still working it's gills more than usual. I think the first two times I saw this fish it had the FH in it's mouth tail-first. The third time I believe it was in head-first.

Does it seem reasonable that the fingerlings could double in mass in one month? The pond is loaded with FH yoy, some of them still only a few days old I would guess.

Yes, it is absolutely reasonable to put on that much weight. Sometimes really little lepomis grow at an almost stunning rate when there is ample big forage available....like YOY fatheads.

Excellent observations. It is my personal belief that if you can get lepomis on a fish diet they will have the very best chance of growing huge. This also stands true for lepomis with lots and lots of bigger sized invertebrates available throughout the year.

GW you really answered your own question. Think about this (my assumptions here) RES yoy weighed X - it ate a FH that weighed 1/4 X - at that point subject to digestion the RES weighed 1 1/4 X. A few of those at a high metabolic rate (digest the FH in a few hours) that yoy have and you have a RES at 2X. When young those dudes run wide open. Did you see the post where Bob talked about the GShiner fry - ... "Keep in mind, these golden shiner fry are tiny, tiny. 250,000 may only weigh 8 pounds, total. But, if they can live as long as 45 days, they can grow to 6 pounds per 1,000...about the size of a regular crappie minnow. ". That is a REAL growth rate of an average of 4.1666X per day.

I know RES devour tadpoles based on aquarium observation.

ewest, the only thing I would adjust is the weight of the FH yoy compared to the RES fingerling. I wouldn't be surprised if it took 20 of the FH to equal the weight of the RES that ate it. The good news is that the pond is loaded with similar yoy.

I stocked 110 RES into my new pond on March 21. The fish averaged about 1.25 inches at that time. On April 22 I began adding adult RES that ranged from 5 - 8 inches.

I'm pretty sure that the RES have spawned over the past few weeks. I started seeing schools of fry after the FH were finished spawning and I think I only have the 2 species. I know the RES spawned (I trapped some) in my neighbor's pond and we added fish from the same source at the same time.

Yesterday I noticed some beds in very shallow water and on closer inspection I saw that they were RES. Most of them were 3 - 4 inches long and they must be from the 110 small fish I stocked in March. Should I be surprised that these very young fish are showing spawning behavior?

I was also surprised at how shallow the water is where they're bedding. Some of them are in water that is no deeper than 8 inches. One of the larger RES that I transferred from Mr H's pond is bedding near the smaller fish, also in very shallow water.

Here's a link to the video I took of them. The fish are smaller than they look in the video. The fish in the lower left hand corner is no more than 4 inches long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X5B8YaSTB4

Dang GW, great video, really clear. Looks like you are raising some studly RES.

I though that you caught a UFO on tape for a second there but after watching it a second time I think it was a dragonfly.

This truly is a great video of RES on a spawing bed.

Thanks JHAP, I'm going to try and record them spawning.

I just got back from the pond and I offered several black soldier fly larvae to the bedding RES. I believe they don't eat much when they're guarding a bed but what the heck. One fish that is an adult stocked this spring ate one larvae. I imagine this could have been a protective behavior, but it took the food the way I've seen fish normally feeding. This particular RES isn't on a bed continuously at this point so maybe it's still actively feeding. Next time I try this I'll have my camera.

I was using the final stage coffee colored larvae today and I don't think they are as attractive to fish as the grub colored stages. I hope that fish will get acclimated to dark BSFL because they are the cleanest to handle and they're self harvesting.

I was definitely wrong about bedding RES not eating much. I shot a video a few days ago and one of them must have eaten 3 dozen small BSF larvae. I guess they were wary of a new type of food initially, but now they're fighting to get to them. I'll post a video of a feeding session soon.

It seems like my RES have been spawning for several weeks now. I'm really surprised by how shallow the beds are. The pond is at full pool now and if I lost a foot of water almost all of the beds would be dry.



Another thing that surprised me is that out of the initial 24 adult RES stocked this year they all seem to be in the same area. I counted 11 (males?) on these beds. Safety in numbers? When I feed them the BSF larvae I see other RES (females?) in the deeper water close to the beds. It's great because I'm able to see the condition of most of the adults that I stocked. I'm happy to say they all look fat and sassy.

Some of the 1.25 inch RES I stocked in mid March are also making beds. They range in size from 3 - 4 inches and some of them are right in the middle of the larger fish. I'm assuming they aren't much more than a year old. Is it possible they could spawn or are they just "playin house"?

Here's one with a quarter for reference:



I'm throwing these RES fish pellets along with the black soldier fly larvae. Sometimes I'll see one take a pellet by reflex, but from what I've seen they've been spitting them out. I guess I wouldn't want dry toast if there were cheeseburgers everywhere.

GW, thanks for the great documentary. I haven't been keeping up with this one enough. Interesting about them spitting out the pellets. I was hoping they would eat them. I found a few of my larger small male BG bedding 2 wks. ago. Them hammer the pellets thrown over them. Seems like a good way from to keep them from loosing so much body wt. Keep it coming. This will be very important for future pondmeistering.

Tropical storm Fay ended this experiment by introducing BG, WM, and Shiners to my pond, at least that's what I've found so far.

The WM came from my neighbor's upstream pond where I stocked them in spring 08. They apparently spawned very well because my pond is now loaded with WM from 1.5" to 6", but mostly in the 2-3" range.

The BG and Shiners came up from the creek. I sampled my pond for the first time yesterday and out of 6 or 7 dozen fish (mostly WM) I caught 3 BG and 3 Golden Shiners. The biggest shiner was 6".

Now that I have the BG and Shiners I need to get some large predators. I would love to add a small number of grass and chain pickerel as well as Florida or spotted gar.

I think I need to watch the WM because they will hit any yoy hard. I know LMB will control the WM, but I don't want a pond full of small bass.

I think the WM might do a good job of controlling the RES population under 2-3" for now and larger as the WM grow. I think the small WM should be fairly easy to control by angling and I pulled out several dozen yesterday.

I don't trust my scale very much, but here's a few photos from my first day fishing this pond:

LOOKS GREAT GW!!!!

Man, with all the teeth in your pond, I would LOVE to be one of you BSF on the wall to watch anyone trying to swim in there!!!!!

Thanks RM, the life expectancy of a BSF larvae in my pond is about 5 seconds.

Here are a few more from yesterday.

I've got to admit, I really like the thumbnail format. You can blow those things up huge and see all sorts of detail.

Great pictures.

those are great GW. especially that last one blown up, really beautiful fish. the first pics....thats a nice sized WM.

you must be a proud papa.

Thanks Dave.

I think the last photo you're talking about is my new sig photo. It's a cropped version of one of the pics in my post from today.

The WM have only been in my pond for about 7 weeks, since TS Fay dropped 15" of rain on us. I still am the papa to some degree because I stocked Mr. H's pond upstream. Both of our ponds have had a lot of FH so the WM have been stuffing themselves. IIRC I stocked 40-50 WM fingerlings last April/May and about a dozen adults. Now I'm trying to guess if individual fish are the fingerlings or YOY.

All you BSF fans out there notice how GW hooked his bait. With the BSFL you don't have to "thread" the hook through the bait. Just hook it anywhere - the fish don't nibble it, they hammer it.

Nice pics GW. Lots of iridescence in those fish. Do you have any FH left ? That one BGish looking fish may have some other (RES) genes in there also.

rm, it sounds like you've been putting your BSF to good use.

ewest, I almost mentioned the idea of some mixed genes when I noticed the orange on the tab and pattern of spots on the side. I looked up some WM images and I did find a few with a bit of orange on the tab so I forgot about it. If you remember these fish come from a very small pond with only FH, WM and RES. The pond is bowl shaped with no plants or structure and the water tends to be murky. When I stocked the fingerlings and adults there were plenty of FH, but they seem to be much more scarce now. Round bellied WM are not uncommon though...

edit: I just remembered another thing that I noticed while culling some fish. (I'm already removing small WM) Sometimes when I collected a small fish (1.5-2") I've thought they were a RES, and then I see WM traits and call it a WM. I'll try to get a pic of some of these.

Interesting GW, a WM/RES hybrid?

A few people at the NANFA forum are calling it straight WM. One of them has experience crossing WM and RES. Here's his comment:

HYBRIDIZATION OF FISHES IN NORTH AMERICA
(FAMILY CENTRARCHIDAE)
by

W.F. CHILDERS


R × RW, W × RW, B × RW, G × RW, R × GB, and RB × W young were killed after they developed into free-swimming fry because of the lack of ponds in which they could be stocked. All six kinds of fry appeared to be normal and probably would have developed into adults. Free-swimming fry of the remaining six crosses in the laboratory were stocked in ponds and did develop into adult fishes. BW × B, G × GW, and B × RG populations produced large numbers of young.



Both WR and WB F1 hybrids exhibited high mortality between the hatching and swim-up fry stages. At the time the experiments were terminated, only two percent of the WR hybrids and one percent of the WB hybrids appeared to be morphologically normal. All of these morphologically normal-appearing WR and WB F1 hybrid fry were very sluggish. When petri dishes containing these hybrid fry were tapped with a pencil, the fry responded with weak swimming movements or not at all, and it is very doubtful that any of these fry would have become free swimming. Fifty-five percent of the WG hybrids and 75 percent of the pure green sunfish zygotes developed into normal-appearing swim-up fry (difference significant to 0.05 level). The WG hybrid swim-up fry appeared to be behaving normally. The remaining nine kinds of hybrids were not significantly different from their maternal parent species in the percentages that developed into normal swim-up fry.

Table III

Successful backcrosses, outcrosses, four-way cross, and another cross involving F1 hybrid sunfishes.1

Backcross -Outcrosses -Three-Species Cross -Four-Species cross
♂ × ♀

R × RW ---R × GB ------RB × GW ----------------BW × GW
G × GW ---R × BW
W × RW ---R × GW
BW × B ---B × RG
-----------R × RW
-----------G × RW
-----------RW × W


1 R = red-ear sunfish, B = bluegill, G = green sunfish, W = warmouth.