Last year, in it's second season my Dad's pond had some water chemistry issues that stressed the fish. In late September I had to "rescue" some of the residents when the water turned really green and smelly.

Here's a brief refresher on the parameters.


.15 acre

maximum depth 13 feet

average depth 5 feet

teardrop shaped

240,000 gallons

well-fed, with some runoff

pH 8.2

VERY fertile

Fish are fed Aquamax 600

Supports 300 pounds of fish (yeah, I know, I know)

Has previously been circulated with horizontal aeration, and had a surface agitator running at night.

I only killed a few fish (maybe 5%), but the water was rapidly getting skunky, presumably because there was an accumulation of nutrients that weren't being processed or out-flowed.

Anyway, I've been wanting from the very beginning to put a waterfall pump into this pond, mostly because my wife likes waterfalls, and I figured that I could put a pump on the bottom and bring the worst bottom water out and aerate and process it. I'm pretty much committed to a pump that will do around 8-10,000 gph, and maybe 5,000 gph with 16 elevation.

Here's my idea. I'd like to figure out a way that the pump runs 24 hours a day, but that it's pumping to the waterfall from 7 pm to 5:30 pm, then during the other ninety minutes it would be discharging out the other side of the dam. This would allow me to put in about 600 gph of fresh well water every day. I'm about to post a picture, and hopefully get an idea from somebody on the engineering aspect of the valve.

Here's a really pathetic "artist's" rendition.

Really, the so-called valve is what I'm wondering about. I'd like to know if anybody has ever put in an underground sprinkler system, and if this technology is similar to what I could use to divert the waterfall flow to an overflow for niney minutes or so each day. And I'd like to be able to vary this amount with a timer so that I could keep the pond as close to full as possible. It has occurred to me (actually Lusk just flat-out told me) that with my original system that I'm always discharging my best water. Makes no sense to do that. I should be always discharging my worst water. Most of the bad stuff is heavier than water and lingers around the bottom of the water column.

Bruce how are you going to process the water? Just bringing it up and adding air may not do the trick. Ammonia and N could be problems. Since you are a Trustee of this pond you are called to a higher duty - not to kill a million fish here. I like the idea and plan but am not a good enough chemist to know what to suggest.

I'm thinking that as the water descends the sixteen feet that it would go through a series of Colorado flagstone stair steps. Maybe eight total steps, each dropping about two feet. I thought this would allow aerobic bacteria access to every drop of water throughout a typical day. It also occurred to me that I could initially drop the water into an 1100 gallon horse tank, then if I was going to need to apply any aquatic herbicides that I could titrate them into the tank over the course of a day.

Actually I'll tell you something really amazing. There's a guy on another forum that I accessed, and this guy is truly brilliant--and he suggested the following as a possible way to clean the water...

"...If I was going to put together a system like that I'd probably go with long multi-chamber watercourses for settlement/mechanical separation on several circuits. Probably 2 or three fed by bottom drains and one for a skimmer circuit. Settlement assisted by brushes for the mechanical followed by well aerated fluidized media for stage 1 biofiltration. Then I'd have large axial prop pumps to feed final bio/polishing bays filled with lithaqua/coarse coral/oyster shell/lavarock. Axial props move massive amounts of water at very low electrical consumption. They're low head, but for a long 1 or 2 trough shower setup they work great."

I'm honestly a little embarrassed that I don't understand all of his terminology, so I'm going to have to research it a little so I can engage in some intelligent conversation. I don't want to waste his time asking a bunch of simple questions. Do any of our pondmeisters understand this lingo?

A little and that is over kill by about 100 for a small pond - you are not going to drink the water. You need to get the ammonia and N out of the water if they are to high. A water sample from the bottom of the pond would be wise. See what is there and then plan accordingly. I was thinking more like a small settling area with some filter plants all of which could be dug out when needed

This gentleman is looking at the problem from the perspective of a professional fish observation system. True, this may be more than I need, but wouldn't it be cool to use some of these concepts to create a really clear, vegetation free pond? I can't imagine anything funner than seeing a 1.5 pound bluegill emerge from below a surface bug with a secchi reading of about 3 meters. I'm drooling just thinking about it!

Bruce, to lift 5000 GPD you are going to be moving on the order of 200 GPM, right? How big a line are you figuring on running the water in from the pump up to the waterfall, something like 4"-5"?

I am assuming you will want the drain diversion valve to operate automatically while no one is around. I think you want something like an electrically operated gate valve that can be hooked up to a timer (in the simplest form; you could conceivably run the thing via computer control and hook it into the eventual Conderosa Cyberpond 3000 Multi-Pool Control System). Anyway, that size remotely controlled valve seems like something that would be used in large water or sewage treatment facilities. Hopefully someone here may know something about that.

Yes, around around 150 gpm when the water is going downhill, and about 90 gpm when going uphill. I can't remember for sure but I think that the specs said the pump has a 2" outlet. Does that sound right for that sort of flow rate? The Conderosa Cyberpond 3000 MPCS is still waiting for retro-fit nuclear power-up system. There's a holdup on the uranium shipment from Khazakstan. Otherwise we're a big green light, roger. What other kind of professionals beyond sewage treatment people would know how to install this sort of thing?

More importantly it seems that what I'm planning actually makes some semblance of sense. If I cleaned my Cecil Envy tanks by just running water off the top they'd go bad in a few weeks. I'd have to assume that ponds with "ambitious" production are equally troubled by surface outflow.

You may be better off with a separate small pump and line. I do not like un-monitored auto valves. If it sticks (it will over time) or if the system locks up or power fails you could loose all the water and fish. A small restricted flow by-pass pipe with a manual faucet might work.

I'm out there enough to manually redirect the water. That's a very good point in regards to a sticking valve. I'd hate to come out and find an empty pond. Rule number one with fish--they don't like to be dried out for very long.

Valve size is directly affected by the pressure drop across the valve and the feed pressure of the pump. I would assume that you would want a low pressure high volume pump to save on electrical consumption. To move 200 gpm at less than 20 PSIG going to atmospheric, you would need more like a 4" valve. There are solenoid actuated valves up to 4" available for 110V electrical, but going above that size would likely get you into a motor operated valve and get pretty expensive.
You could use a timer set up similar to a lawn sprinkler set up for the timed diversion and if you are concerned with sticking valve, use a cheap PLC to incorporate a level permissive to lock out the valve if the level dropped below a pre-configured level on the pond. You are now getting into a fairly complicated design with PLC controlled pump / valve and a level indicator set up. It would be easier to set up two separate pump systems; one to circulate to the water fall and the other to draw off the bottom and discharge for set periods each day. That would minimize the potential of draining the pond inadvertently by limiting the size of the pump pulling from the bottom. If the slope differential is sufficient, you might even completely eliminate the second pump by using a siphon set up and just use a small timer actuated valve. Again limiting the size of the draw down minimizes the potential of draining the pond in short order.

Wow! Isn't that interesting!?

I don't think my electrical outlet will handle two pumps, but the siphon setup is an interesting twist.

Tell me a little bit more about what is a "small timer actuated vale"?

Bruce, I'm really not sure but it sounds like the guy from the other site is describing on of those fish tank filters that hang on the back of your aquarium, just on a larger scale, in a series with more features. "Axial prop" sounds like that little white thing that spins to pump water...you know the one Nemo's son jammed with a rock in Finding Nemo.

I like the idea of an overflow that pulls off the bottom rather than pumping the bad water. Not really a siphon just an overflow pipe that extends to the bottom of the pond. In fact, I would drill a hole in the top of the overflow pipe to prevent a siphon from starting, greatly reducing the risk of draining the pond. This would allow you to pump as much water in as you want from the well without the complications of adjusting timers or compicated (and often unreliable) automatic controls.

If the pond already has an overflow pipe, this may be pretty simple to accomplish.

Bruce,
A timer actuated valve is one that uses a timer similar to a sprinkler set up, and actuates a 110V AC solenoid valve. Get a normally closed valve ( closes with power off and opens with power on ). These are available from any plumbing outlet and are available in 1/2" - 3". If you have enough drop n elevation, the siphon effect will draw water off based on valve size and timer setting.
Good luck.

Here's a very interesting post from the "NEFGA" pond managment site, by a member named Brian...

Found this on another DNR website:

"Not all leeches feed on blood. Some eat only plants or other organic materials. Treatment with copper sulfate can eliminate leeches from a pond. For ponds with moderately hard water, a concentration of 5 ppm copper sulfate is usually enough to kill the leeches. Because leeches swim, the entire waterbody must be treated be effective. Because copper sulfate also kills algae, treatment of ponds containing a large amount of algae can cause a fish kill due to oxygen depletion after decomposition of the plants."


I was unaware that you could control leeches with copper sulfate. Would this apply to any other parasites? This could be especially valuable for my Dad's pond as long as I keep the concentrations at sub-lethal levels for fish.

Anybody also know what Copper Sulfate concentrations will kill fish? And what concentration will kill algae?

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA008



If the total alkalinity is less than 50 ppm, copper treatments are not recommended because of the high risk of killing fish. If the total alkalinity is over 250 ppm, do not use more than 2.5 ppm of copper sulfate. Florida's waters are extremely variable in alkalinity, so if you don't know the alkalinity of your water, find out before you treat with copper. In the literature you will see many different values for copper dosages, but experience has shown that the above formula is best for determining the dosage rate.



Chemical Upper Limits for Continuous Exposure and/or Tolerance Ranges
Ammonia (NH3) 0.0125 ppm (un-ionized form)
Cadmiuma 0.004 ppm (soft water < 100 ppm alkalinity)
Cadmiumb 0.003 ppm (hard water > 100 ppm alkalinity)
Calcium 4.0 to 160 ppm (10.0-160.00 ppm d )
Carbon dioxide 0.0 to 10 ppm (0.0-15.0 ppm d)
Cholorine 0.03 ppm
Copperc 0.006 in soft water
Hydrogen sulfide 0.002 ppm (Larsen - 0.0 ppm)
Iron (total) 0.0 to 0.15 ppm (0.0-0.5 ppm d)
Ferrous ion 0.00 ppm
Ferric ion 0.5 ppm (0.0-0.5 ppm d)
Lead 0.03 ppm
Magnesium (Needed for buffer system)
Manganese 0.0 to 0.01 ppm
Mercury (organic of inorganic) 0.002 ppm maximum, 0.00005 ppm average
Nitrate (NO-3) 0.0 to 3.0 ppm
Nitrite (NO-2) 0.1 ppm in soft water, 0.2 ppm in hard water
Nitrite-nitrogen 0.03 and 0.06 ppm nitrite-nitrogen
Nitrogen Maximum total gas pressure 110% of saturation
Oxygen 5.0 ppm to saturation; 7.0 to saturation for eggs or broodstock
Ozone 0.005 ppm
pH 6.5 to 8.0 (6.6-9.0d)
Phosphorus 0.01 to 3.0 ppm
Polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) 0.002
Total suspended and settleable solids 80.0 ppm or less
Total Alkalinity (as CaCO3) 10.0 to 400 ppm (50.0-4.00.0 ppmd)
% as phenolphthalein 0.0 to 25 ppm (0.40 ppmd)
% as methyl orange 75 to 100 ppm (60.0-100.0 ppmd)
% as ppm hydroxide 0.0 ppm
% as ppm carbonate 0.0 to 25 ppm (0.0-40.0 ppmd)
% as ppm bicarbonate 75 to 100 ppm
Total Hardness (as CaCO3) 10 to 400 ppm (50.0-400.0 ppmd)
Zinc 0.03-0.05 ppm





Copper sulfate
(Various trade names)
Copper sulfate is a contact herbicide
primarily used to control
algae. However, it is not effective
for Pithophora control. Copper
can interfere with gill functions
and, if improperly used, can be
toxic to fish and zooplankton.
Fish species such as trout and
koi are particularly sensitive to
copper. However, most fish kills
that occur after copper sulfate
treatment are caused by a massive
algae kill and the subsequent
oxygen depletion.
Copper sulfate is also formulated
as a solution made by dissolving
the crystals in a sulfuric acid
solution. These acidified copper
solutions are registered for aquatic
use and sold under various
trade names (e.g., Copper Cat,
EarthTec, AgriTec, etc.).
The effectiveness and safety of
copper sulfate are determined by
alkalinity and water temperature.
In water with an alkalinity ≤ 50
ppm, the rate of copper sulfate
needed to control algae can be
toxic to fish. Copper treatment at
water alkalinities of ≤ 20 ppm is
extremely risky. In high alkalinity
(≤ 250 ppm) water, copper sulfate
quickly precipitates out and
is not effective for algae control.
The toxicity of copper sulfate to
fish increases as water temperature
increases. Avoid copper sulfate
applications during hot summer
months. (For additional
information on treating with copper
see SRAC Publication No.
410, Calculating Treatments for
Ponds and Tanks.)

Here's an image from my Dad's pond yesterday.

That's nice Bruce, are they eggs?

I have some water trickling into the pond, and there's a little place where the water makes about a two inch drop, and those bubbles are what I found at the bottom of this "micro waterfall". I thought it was neat.

Me too.

Isn't it strange the incredible uniformity of the bubbles? I checked it again an hour later, and as the end row of bubbles would pop, a new row would form at the front. It seemed to be an infinite cycle.

It looks like you were poking tiny little blades of grass into a compound insect eye.

Here's a wider view.

Bruce - I think dissolved proteins in the water are the substance that allows the bubble to form. The micro-water fall provides just enough air infusion into the proteinaceous water to cause a bubble. I've seen this similar situation but on a large scale in a pond after a bluegreen algae bloom crash. Proteins in that case were from decomposing gelatinous sheaths of the algae. Air infusion was from a bottom diffuser.

Protein bubbles from oozing cytoplasm decomposition after a massive algae die-off. Just what the doc ordered.

Here is a pic of its unconformed cousin - obese plankton bloom.

My Dad caught this bluegill control device yesterday...

It was so fat that I couldn't believe it. Just a wild guess at relative weight, but I'd say somewhere around 120. It was nearly 4 inches thick.

Sweet. I see the Condello Photography Technique is one that was passed down from generation to generation.

if i didnt know better i'd say u are stealing mortimer's fish

Evidently we have my Dad's water quality issues corrected.

Very nice!

I see MJ is still doing a bang-up job.

Bruce you better take care of the trust pond - it looks like you are doing very well. How about a full update on the recent history.