will copper sulfate kill the algae and plants and duck weed and waterlilies on my pond that is like quarter of acre what do you reccommond. I was told it is a good cheap way to start off

Welcome magic1234 to the PB forum.

Here is a link to Aquaplant. Each plant is different. CUSO4 (copper ) will work on some but not others. Go to the link and look up each plant then the management options.. Note that some copper products have potential water quality issues. There are a bunch of threads on Copper products here to read first before you try one.

http://aquaplant.tamu.edu/

thanks i apprecite your help i want to get the pond cleaned up before i lose it

magic - here are some previous threads on copper sulfate:

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000251

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000230

Shorty:

Take it from someone who has "been there, done that" you are a lot more likely to lose the pond (as you put it) by the wrong or too much chemical than you are by letting nature, and cold weather run it's course.

Do your research carefully and make as accurate an estimation of your lake size and what weed you are faced with as you can and you will be doing the right thing.

I believe one of the biggest mistakes a Pond Boss can make is to look for a cheap way of doing it.

Each of us has likely spent thousands, tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of $$$ on their land, lake, etc. Saving a few bucks by using chemicals that are potentially harmful is not the best approach.


Bing

I hear ya Bing, been there and done that too, twice in the last 20 years to be exact.

Shorty:

Thanks for the reply. I meant to address my reply to Magic1234, not you. I just misread who originated the thread.

Something that I have observed many times on this site, but didn't want to single out Magic1234 about it since I have seen it so often, is how some pondsters really look for doing things cheap. All of us, I guess, are on a budget and all of us want to save $$$. However it seems like many times doing it cheap seems more important than doing it the best way. That is likely why I started using Copper Sulfate when other chemicals do it better.

I learned that lesson on chemicals and am now trying to use good judgment on what feeder to buy, etc. Some are 1/2 the price of others, but it looks some, like Sweeney, are so superior that it is worth it.

Bing

Bing,

I know a fellow who asked his county agent what he could do cheaply to treat the algae in his pond. The agent recommended the product used to kill tree roots in sewer lines....copper sulfate. He got a cheap solution to his algae control, but now has a pond that is contaminated for many many years in the future with copper.

i can tell based on the posting that copper sulfate is not the product to use. I have alot of algae that comes up in the late summer from the bttm as well as water lillys and plants on the side of the pond that flower with a purple flower there are also cattails on one side of pond. I would apprecate if you can reccommond what chemical to use in stead of copper sulfate

CUSO4 is a viable product in the proper situation and if used correctly. It may not be the best product and it probably is not the right one in your situation. But it depends on the plants and the situation. You have to id the plants and the control method. See this link to help.

http://aquaplant.tamu.edu/

This assumes you have fish and don't want to risk killing them or damaging the pond dirt and water. If that is not the situation you can drain the pond and renovate to get rid of the weeds.

i appreciate all the help on the coper sufate and decided it it not the way to go. I will have to put some money aside and buy some of the expensive chemicals.

I recently tried to purchase copper sulfate for my pond in NY. Was told by Tractor Supply that they can not sell copper sulfate in the state of NY. What can we use to control filamentatious algae here?

Tuzz,

Have you tried Cutrine plus? There are probably other equally good products but Cutrine has worked very well for me in the past. No way I would ever use copper sulfate in my ponds, but Cutrine doesn't pose as much danger from the copper as straight copper sulfate...from the label:

"The ethanolamines in CUTRINE-PLUS prevent the precipitation of copper with carbonates and bicarbonates in the water. Waters treated with CUTRINE-PLUS may be used for swimming, fishing, drinking, livestock watering or irrigating turf, ornamental plants or crops immediately after treatment."

First, let me say that I'm no expert on this subject. I will try to accurately reflect some information I have observed regarding my ponds health over the past several years. A while back, I took a course entitled "ecology for engineers." It was taught by a couple of guys that were leaders in their field, and very knowledgeable about aquatic habitat.

I have had some serious problems with the plants described above and in particular filamentatious algae. One summer, I had a major fish kill as the algae died during some cool August days. I've used cutrine and copper sulfate. They work. Given a couple of weeks, these treatments will knock it out. With a couple of treatments a year, no problem. You have a nice looking pond.

Here's the rub. I raise fish. I have bass, BG, cats, and crappie. The fish and particularly the BG and bass were not growing like I would like. The BG were stunted, and the bass were also very small. The cats did ok because I fed pellets. The water seemed like it was always cloudy.

During coffee breaks I would chat with the instructors to get their take on my pond and its health. Their come back was immediate and unanimous. I don't have an algae problem. I have a nutrient management problem. Killing the algae only releases the nutrients back to the pond to be used again. And, if I didn't cut off the source, the nutrients would only continue to accumulate. Also, once the copper precipitates out, the problem will come back likely worse than before. So, will I have to treat forever?

Their 2nd observation. The copper based algaecides kills the algae, and other zooplankton, invertebrates, etc. which are part of the food chain for BG, fatheads, shiners, and other critters. Also, the cloudy water (which could be nutrient based), detracts from site feeders like LMB. This could be the cause of both small BG (3") and bass (12").

The solution is beginning to unfold (for me at least). I'm dealing with a half acre pond so it is probably much more practicable to do what I'm doing for my situation than for others. Here are the steps I've implemented so far. No fertilizer for the lawn around the pond. On other areas on the property, I use a slow release fertilizer (not the cheep stuff) with low or no phosphates. Aerate. This helps break down organics naturally, and provides O2 for the fish. If the alga builds up around the edge, mechanically harvest it. This gets rid of the algae as well as nutrients (a couple of hours two or three week ends a year in my case). The final thing I've done is to use a bacteria / enzyme additive. This has been very helpful in removing muck from the bottom, and I've really noticed the water clearing up. Visibility has gone from 6" to about 4 feet.

This past year is my third year without Cu treatments. The water is clearer. The BG are now about 8" on average, and I've caught some LMB in the 20" range. The larger cats are about 30". I think if cats can find feed, they are very tolerant of water quality. I hope sharing some of my thoughts is helpful. If I'm off base on some of my observations, the experts on the forum can help with more scientific explanations.

Bad Boy:

Great observations. I plan to do some research into enzyme additives. I have been a little turned off by the concept because about the only time I have been exposed to the subject is when someone pushes them as a wonder cure. Most of the time when I have seen it touted there is a web site or 800 number to call and order.

I am hopeing that this subject is on the program at the Pond Boss Forum in Dallas in March.

Bing

Bing, if it's not on the program, there will be a lot of Pro's to corral with specific questions.

That's right Bing please come by the moderator booth and ask DD1 all the questions you want. :p If that doesn't work then we can find someone "in the know" to corner with the questions.

Or I can make something up.

Bill Cody will be there. Nuff said.

Bing -Follow Bab Boy's lead and advice. He is on a path that leads in the right direction. Look at the progress he has made by reading his testimony.

To add to this topic,
Up-here in Quebec, chemicals like Cu are banned. In fact about 95% of what the industry sells for pond management in the USA is unavailable in Canada... how do we get rid of algae?

Exactly like Bing said, we manage the nutrients instead. And it really works!

One note though, be careful of the term enzymes, bacteria will produce enzymes. Enzymes wont reproduce, they are a by-product of bacterial activity.
Another important note would be to ask for the freshest batch of bacteria and to ask for the count per unit (how many millions or billions per gram) One pound of bacteria with a 1 million cfu is not as effective as one with 1 billion cfu.

What is CFU? :In microbiology, colony-forming unit (CFU) is a measure of viable bacterial numbers. Unlike in direct microscopic counts where all cells, dead and living, are counted, CFU measures viable cells. By convenience the results are given as {CFU}/{mL}, colony-forming units per milliliter.

Also, if you do not aerate, try using bacteria mixes that are design for wastewater, they will still function with less oxygen.

Our government decided for us what we can sell; and you know it aint that bad, its actually more efficient in the long run...

Excellent posts!

Does anybody know if the same bacterial approach would need a different angle if the water has salinity? It always seems to me that bacteria have such limited parameters that it would be difficult to know which would thrive without knowing some specific water chemistry.

Bruce

CHECK OUT THE WEB SITE www.nutritekinc.com

They have a product that works in the ocean called
Greenex. Give Mike T a call 877-478-4844. These guys are located on the west coast. He'll answer all your questions. I've used this product in my pond for the last 6 years with no problems.

Troll

Bruce,

In the liquid format, I know of one product that works in salt-water environment :

From BactaPur's website:
Bacta-Pur® XLSW :To biodegrade soluble organic pollutants - BOD reduction as well as for sludge reduction in salt water (>5 ppt salinity).

These guys are manufacturer, beats me how you can manufacture bacteria!!! in fact they should be called bacteria farmers! They have a pretty cool bacteria brewing operation right here in Quebec and they ship all around the world... not today cause the bacteria would freeze

As a new pond owner, I did a lot of research and everything came up pretty much - Do NOT use copper sulfate. When I do have an algae/plant problem etc., I too, will be looking for something other than it to control the problems. Keep up the great site Pond Boss--I just love my Pond Boss magazines--they and this site are a wealth of information that without I wouldn't know what the hec I'm doing with this Pond.

There is a reason most states restrict copper discharge in NDPS permitting to levels less than 20 ppb. Copper is an indiscriminate algaecide and has detrimental effects on some animal enzymes production. Even the chelated copper products eventually result in elemental copper in the water that precipitates as a metal hydroxide salt, but at least the dissociation is controlled and so the impact of over-feed is lessened. What ever you choose, it is always advisable to start slow and add more as needed.

Mike that is really good advice especially if you don't know how your pond will react. First learn all you can about the product and be prepared before you treat. Then go slow.

Bad Boy, how deep is your pond?

I stopped using chemicals 3 years ago basically because I didn't like spending the money they want for some of them and resorted to raking a few times a year where access allows. The fl. algea seems to be less than it was 3 yrs ago, maybe this is why. I thought maybe the fact that the fish were helping keep the weeds in check, the watermeal and duckweed are considerably less. Do some fish eat the watermeal and duckweed?
My pond is doing well with no aeration but planed to add bottom aeration at some point. At what depth is bacteria able to survive without aeration?

Thanks
FH

Fishhead, you ask a lot of questions I don't know the answer to. Here's what I know. My pond is about 10' deep right now. It's only about a third of an acre and in the back yard. We also have frontage on a comunity lake about 15 acres and up to 25 foot deep. The community lake doesn't have a problem with FA. They have a problem with BG aleae from time to time. We have all of our ponds aeriated. Comments are based upon my property and my pond. I'm a work in progress as my pond clarity increased from 1' to about 6'. This past year I've noticed some watermeal. But 90% of the pond surface area is clear. If FA gets to floating too bad, I get the garden rake out and do some collection.

I don't know what depth the bacteria is able to work. It is aerobic bacteria so it must have an oxygen supply. It should not be applied unless the pond temp is at least 60 degrees, otherwise it won't grow. But I've noticed some significant increase in scum recuction and pond clarity.

My observations... Hope this helps.

I did just a brief search on the aerobic bacteria and anerobic bacteria, I can't give a disortation but like you said aerobic needs O2 to work and anerobic does not. Bottom aeration will be needed to supply the aerobic bacteria with enough O2 to survive below a given ponds level where the right amount of oxygen sustains it's life.

It would also appear by adding this aerobic bacteria one might get some benifit without an aeration system if the bacteria is not already present. My guess is that my pond already has it and that by adding an aeration system I could benifit immensely by lowering the level I currently have the correct O2 levels. However, by adding additional bacteria it probably couldn't hurt anything.

FH

I did just a brief search on the aerobic bacteria and anerobic bacteria, I can't give a disortation but like you said aerobic needs O2 to work and anerobic does not. Bottom aeration will be needed to supply the aerobic bacteria with enough O2 to survive below a given ponds level where the right amount of oxygen sustains it's life.

It would also appear by adding this aerobic bacteria one might get some benifit without an aeration system if the bacteria is not already present. My guess is that my pond already has it and that by adding an aeration system I could benifit immensely by lowering the level I currently have the correct O2 levels. However, by adding additional bacteria it probably couldn't hurt anything.

FH

Fishhead, Mario and others, great post on bacteria.

I attended a 3-day course for Bacta-Pur. Beautiful land there Mario. The strains are found in the ponds but at what amount and depth is depending on water quality. There are also different strains for different objectives as stated earlier, saltwater vs. freshwater, pelagic vs. bottom sluge digesters.

Obviously you have anerobic and aerobic forms and falcutative too. By providing the correct habitat for the form you desire (aerobic being the most effective) you will achieve the results you desire.

By adding the bacteria to the pond you are ensuring that the strains needed are introduced to the pond. Yes they will grow if the habitat is there. If you find that you are not achieving the desired results, Alkalinity and pH could be your damaging factor.

Keep in mind that efficient water purification is a funtion of balanced communities of bacteria, not single strains. Balanced strains are often lacking in nature and by enoculating (sp?) with a quality bacteria product that guarantees types of strains and counts of strains/g as Mario stated you are balancing out the bacteria communities in your pond.

Most of Bacta Pur products contain 12 strains to nitrify, denitrify and they even have the ability to reduce nitrate accumulation.

In a nutshell, if you provide the habitat and at least enoculate once a season, you are giving your pond that "flu-shot" for the season.

I think some strains when introduced take advantage of the available food which has accumulated over time, and grow and eat at an amazing rate. But I think they eat themselves out of house and home so to speak (unless you supplement their food supply) and they all die. So when the food (organics, nitrogen, what ever) builds back up, you need to put some bacteria in and again clean things up.

Also, like Cary says, there are so many other factors which affect specific bacteria's vigor and effectiveness.

We used bacteria to break down petroleum and chlorinated solvent contamination in soil and ground water. The bacteria are often there but they didn't thrive, so they weren't working at full potential. We would add food or air to the ground water or soil, and the bacteria would take off and work overtime. We would sample to see what bacteria were present before we added supplement obviously.

I've been impressed with that which I have used in my pond. Where I once had sludge on the bottom of the pond, I can now see a sand bottom. I've got one more bag and when the water temp gets to 60, I will add it to the pond. But I've lost my net link where I bought the stuff and need to do some surfing or look at past charges to the credit card to find the source (sorry I can't endorse that specific product at this time).

what about good old copper sulfate ? have you tryed that yet

http://cgi.ebay.com/AEROBIC-SEPTIC-SYSTE...VQQcmdZViewItem

I just found "ROEBIC" "AIR-O-PAKS" $39 for 4 - 8oz. packs. sold on ebay. Is Aerobic Bacteria, aerobic bacteria no matter how you slice it?

"The Pond Guy" web site has it for sale as well.

FH

Yes on copper sulfate as have several on this thread. Please read the earlier posts.

I did find my source, but my recollection of forum guidelines are this may constutate a from of advertising. I will leave advertising to the magazine editors / publishers. However, it's one of the largest supply houses for pond stuff and they are from Florida.

FH, I've heard of folks using the septic tank products. The brand I've been using has 12 different strains specifically for ponds. So, the answer is no, not all aerobic bacteria is the same. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of strains of beneficial bacteria, each with it's specific charecteristics. These products are expensive and if you have a large pond, price may be prohibitive in any form.

Thanks, Bad Boy, I figured there had to be different strains but haven't dug into it before now. I'll have to do a little reading on it, my interest is up now as I have trees around 75% of my 2.5 acre pond, and I had a lot of new dead trees drop in earlier this year due to the ice storm we experienced.

Great thread and thanks to all of you who have researched for sharing your knowledge!

FH