Did you ever wonder what Aluminum Sulphate (Alum) will do to help clear suspended clay in a pond? Maybe these photos will help!

I started the morning with 3-5 inches of secchi visability.

The first 2 pictures are older shots from spring of 2007. The next 2 pictures are from the morning I put in the Alum The next 6 pictures were taken about 1 hour apart beginning 6 hours after the Alum application was done. It took 3 hours to mix and apply the Alum from a small boat using a 40 gallon sprayer. 1200 pounds of Alum and 600 pounds of Hydrated Lime were mixed with pond water and surface sprayed onto approximately 20 acrefeet of water. NOTE: the pond in reality is 1.48 acres (see below).












The clarity differance is absolutely stunning!!! secchi reading after 24 hours.....................over 72 inches (I only had a 6 foot rope) I haven't been back to the pond in over a month since the Alum was applied. I hope after the last 8 inches of rain that it has remained clear and that a good bloom has begun.

Rainman hint from 3-11-09:
If not using a sprayer, but ARE using a boat(gas or trolling motor) Mixing the alum into a slurry in a 5 gallon bucket first before pouring into the propwash will work better. Be sure to add 50% of HYDRATED lime seperately to keep the PH from dropping much.

As you only have about 1.3 ace/ft of water, I'd suggest 100 pounds of alum and 50 pounds of hydrated lime. If it doesn't clear in 24 hours, add 50 more pounds of alum, Hy Lime could be optional on the second app.

Darn nice looking 'gills.

Thanks Theo,
It's the first time in their 3 year life that they can now see their food from a distance further than their noses.

Wow! How did you determine your application rate and did you monitor ph as you went. I've been playing with Alum to control algae but am reluctant to apply enough to be effective because of the potential ph crash.
By the way, where did you get your shepard. Until last year I had a male that looked just like yours and have been looking for a replacement.

Most impressive Rainman. Thanks for the great pics.

You should be aware that you are going to be costing me much money and effort though because now I want to do the same thing

Moryan, you can do some searches on the amount of alum per volume and visibility. The best way is using a diluted mixture of water and alum to see how much it takes to clear a gallon of water. I will try and find a formula.
You can add 60-75% as much hydrated lime as alum to maintain the ph.

Try this


https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/108/

The cost of alum is really very cheap compared to other means like lime, gypsum, etc. General chemical is the primary mixer of alum, nearly all other companies buy from GenChem. You can email/call GenChem for a supplier near you. Cost will rang from 30 to 37 cents per pound. Most chemical suppliers require a $100 minimum purchase. Tell them you are a ranch (just use your initials such as R & S Ranch) otherwise you may have trouble getting them to sell to you. As for PH crash it is not nearly as big a concern as stated, BUT possible, so spend the extra $5 per 50lb pound bag and mix it in at half the weight of alum applied to be safe (That ratio makes it nearly ph neutral) The "trick" is to be truly effective is to pre mix the alum anywhere from 5:1 to 10:1 water to alum and SPRAY the mix evenly over the water. Dumping the alum in will not mix and you will waste your money (just as I did twice). If you have questions, send me a PM with your phone# and I will be glad to tell you more.

Rex

Burgermeister,

I raised sheperds for years for the military and I searched for this one for 2 years. He came from a litter in Kansas City.
BTW he is 135lbs---60lbs bigger than the breed standard. 6' 2" from tip of nose to tip of tail!

Im eagerly awaiting a test kit so I can doit this weekend.I spoke with Todd O and Bob Lusk about it at the conv. and they both said the same thing.Be careful,monitor and you should be fine.

Tom G, If you have a pool supply store near you, they will do a ph and alkilinity test for free. If you have reasonable alkilinity, the alum will be buffered to where ph won't be a factor. Alum is not really very acidic and can be mixed in concentration with bare hands and not cause skin irritation (from personal experiance). I feel the lime is always a cheap insurance and can be spead dry either before or after applying the alum (I prefer after) also, I use pond water to make the alum slurry.

Nothing is close to me.I think Ill be doing just what you did,how you did it.Sending you a PM

UPDATE!!!

I have always thought my pond was 3.5 acres because the NRCS had listed that as the size of my pond when they supervised the repairs I had done. IN FACT my pond is 1.48 acres when using an aerial map to measure the area. I felt it important to update this thread because the amount of alum required will need to be doubled to get good results when compared to the earlier posts!

After seeing a TRUE 3 acre pond_ I KNEW mine was not as big as the NRCS had told me. Guess this happens to spatially challenged people and I SWEAR--This is the only size I exaggerated!

and we SWEAR that we believe you. Heck I bet your dog only weighs 57 pounds.

Rainman, Thanks for the info. I just went into the site today to look see what I could do to clarify the water in my small, maybe 1/10 acre pond. I have a lot of clay suspended. It has never cleared up since it was dug a year ago. I just googled alum and aluminum sulfate and found a supplier and ordered a 50# bag via the internet as that looks to be enough to treat a pond this size that has water maybe 6 ft average depth. RubyCreekTed

If your measurements were incorrect, then you acutally only had approx 8.5 acrefeet that you put 1400 pounds of Alum into. If the pounds required for a 0.5 ratio @ 4 acrefeet is 302 pounds, then 8 acrefeet would use 604 pounds. Since your pond is actually 8.5 acrefeet, lets call it 700 pounds needed at a 0.5 rate bucket test. You used around 1400 pounds, which would equate to approx a 1.0 ratio bucket test.

I'm doing tests myself and I seem to get little if any change at a 0.5 ratio 1 gallon test, but a 1.0 ratio seems to clear it VERY fast. Of course there is a cooresponding PH crash I will have to balance out.

Interesting thing is the more Alum added the faster it would clear and re-clear if shook up. Is there anything wrong with adding a higher Alum ratio (1.0+) if the potential of a PH crash is balanced out with lime?

When I state "clear" it means I placed it against the same container type which held bottled water and it looked just as good.

Neo, I'm not sure about the ratio thing. I just did the test using 1,2,& 3 level tablespoons of alum to 1 gallon of water as described http://www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/rec_fishing/pdf/muddypondstexas.pdf
My water cleared using the 2 & 3 tablespoon levels after waiting overnight. So, assuming approx 2 acres & average 8' depth = 16ac/ft x 60lbs = 960lbs/50 lbs per sack = 20 sacks alum @ $20.00/sack is $400.00. Haven't done this yet as I am waiting on small gas water pump & Alum, but let you know it turns out!..du

david where are you getting the alum?

James, I ordered it from Estes Chemical. They have an office in Carrollton where you can pick it up. I'm having mine dropped off at my herbicide supplier in Aubrey for convenience..du

Thank you. do I just call them in Carrollton?

Whoa! That's a big difference between the "recommended" charts.

The chart that EWest posted stated the HIGHEST ratio test was 0.5 grams of Alum with a 5 gallon bucket, which would be 0.1 grams of Alum with a 1 gallon bucket.

The chart David U posted above stated the LOWEST ratio test was 1 tablespoon of Alum with a 1 gallon bucket.

I had purchased a digital scale which will measure down to 1/100th of a gram (0.00). This allowed me to perform my test in a 1 gallon container instead of 5 gallon buckets.

I can tell you that 1/8th of a TEASPOON of Alum weights around 0.83 grams, while 1 TBSP (tablespoon) weights 24 grams!

BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!

Why are these so far off from each other????

I can also tell you that I had a pH level of 7.8 and using 1 gram of Alum in a 1 gallon bucket crashed the pH to 6.2.

http://www.ipmassociates.com/downloads/IPMA_Estes_Flyer.pdf

Here's a web page for them in Carrollton

Neo, I am not familiar with Ewest posting, so can't offer an opinion.

It's in the thread on page 1.

Interesting comparison of the two tables:

1. Tables use massively different Alum sample amounts to determine what should be used to clear the pond.
2. Table application rates at their lowest level are the same (30 pounds per acre), then they are significantly different butstill follow a doubling pattern (.2 = 1, .4 = 2, etc...) between the two tables and match the application amount per acre.

The table that EWest linked to on this thread:
0.2 grams in 5 gallon bucket = 30 pounds per acre
0.3 grams in 5 gallon bucket = 45.5 pounds per acre
0.4 grams in 5 gallon bucket = 60.5 pounds per acre
0.5 grams in 5 gallon bucket = 75.5 pounds per acre

The table that David U linked to on this tread:
1 tablespoon in 1 gallon bucket = 30 pounds per acre
2 tablespoons in 1 gallon bucket = 60 pounds per acre
3 tablespoons in 1 gallon bucket = 90 pounds per acre
4 tablespoons in 1 gallon bucket = 120 pounds per acre

My pond can fluctuate between severe (chocolate milk) and mild turbidity (tea colored), depending on the rate of inflow. Right now it is sitting in the "mild" area because the water has a light brownish tint.

The Southern Regional Aquaculture Center table (which uses a 0.X grams for the test buckets) IMO is basically useless. Given that I have a "mild" level of turbidity right now and their max bucket test of 0.5 grams for a 5 gallon container did nothing in my testing (used 1 gallon container @ 0.1 grams). I had to move up to at least a 1-1.2 gram test to make any progress to settle the suspended clay.


Does anyone know what happens to excess Alum introduced into a pond (assuming it is balanced out with lime to control the pH)?

I figure there will be loss from outflow of the water, but is there any advantage to long term clarity by over applying now to handle future issues (potential severe turbidity with spring runoff)?

BTW if your in the central region then GS Robins may be an option to get chemicals from.
http://www.gsrobins.com/locations.html

Neo, the COMPARISONS you give are not very differant at all. The link David U gives uses a teaspoon of SLURRY (1 teaspoon alum MIXED in 1 Gallon of water) and THEN using a teaspoon of the SLURRY MIX. 1 Gallon equals 768 teaspoons.

Using the weights that you provided for the alum, 1 teaspoon of alum should weigh 6.64 grams (.015 pounds). By dividing that 6.64 grams by 768 you get .00865 (rounded) grams per teaspoon of slurry mixed into the Gallon of test water.

By comparison, the chart showing .2 gram per FIVE gallons equals .04 gram per gallon. Since the alum becomes a slurry and never fully dissolves, the effective, DISSOLVED alum concentrations are very close in both tests.

The slurry test is more accurate because it uses the "dissolved" alum for results.

As for the APPLICATION rates, 30 pounds of alum equals .000092 POUNDS of alum per GALLON of water when applied to ONE acrefoot of water (326,700 gallons)----FAR less than the TEST concentrations.

As far as SAFETY concentrations, a QUART of dill pickles has an average of 1/6th teaspoon of alum in it, or 1.1 grams per gallon, or .002425 pounds per gallon, which equates to a VERY safe application rate of over 792 pounds of alum per acrefoot of water. Drinking water that has been treated with alum may contain a maximum final concentration of .000017 pounds per gallon after being filtered, but is treated at a rate of .0013 pounds per gallon (75 times greater than final product).

The only data I could find pertaining to aquatic life toxicity levels for aluminum sulfate found that quantities 1000 times greater than what is used to clear a pond only showed an "accumulation" of aluminum with no known problems.

Someone please check my math, but I am pretty sure it is accurate.

Also FWIW, alum becomes a solid and sinks to the bottom UNLESS the ph is lower than 6.0. Ph below 6.0 aluminum dissolves and becomes toxic to fish. Then again, a ph below 6.0 by itself is not too good for the fishies!

Now I need a vacation to let my brain cool down from recalling all the equations needed for this....

Here is a very cool PDF on treating some lakes with storm run-off with Alum such as Lake Apopka.

Alum Treated Lake Sites

Thanks for the clarification. So those charts are the same but I don't think the other one stated what slurry actually meant, unless I missed it.

So if a .1 gram test worked in a 1 gallon container, what would that equate as pounds per acre/ft?

Also you are saying that any excess Alum introduced doesn't have any advantages long term?

Do I get to look forward to applying Alum each year to deal with more inflow of dirty water?

.1 grams x 325,828 gallons/ac. ft.=32582.8 grams/ac. ft

32582.8 grams/ 1000 grams= 32.5828 kilograms

32.5828 kg. x 2.2 lbs/kg.= 71.833 lbs per acre foot

Thanks Chris! My head still hurts from the last post!

One other thing to note about alum---DO NOT USE ALUM IF THE PH IS 6.0 OR LESS!!!! Above 6.0 the aluminum falls to the bottom with the floc and cannot dissolve.

Going fairly heavy on the alum dose CAN provide benefits. But this is not generally recommended.

Some of the benefits include....

First, it will cause the suspended clay and algae to form bigger and heavier clumps and clear much faster. The bigger clumps are also much less likly to re-suspend.

Second. Excess alum will bind to any Phosphorus(sp) which in turn will reduce FA growth. This may also reduce desirable plant growth too.

Third. Alum will usually be needed in concentrations that kill snails.

Fourth. A heavier concentration will leave the water "positively" charged and will floc any negatively charged clay entering the water column until the charge is neutrilezed.

As for long term benefits, to quote Bill Cody< that all depends. Some studies show alum working for 15 years, others say there is NO risidual effect. I think the bottom line is that you will need to prevent any new clay from entering the pond or else it will be an ongoing problem. If the original dose is adequate, the clay already in the pond will usually not re-suspend.

Good job, Chris. Neo, also, you should add at least 40% by weight of hydrated lime immediately after the alum to maintain the original ph. After adding alum followed by quick lime, my pond always clears up quickly after the dog runs/swims around in the shallow end. After a 4 inch rain in 2 hrs. last wk., the pond cleared up quickly. Alum was added in March.

Additional alum sources recommended by a nearby water treatment plant:

"try Univar USA, Inc. 1-800-947-9264, or Chemical Services Inc. 937-898-7602, Bonded Chemical Corp @ 614-777-9240, Sal Chemical @ 800-879-1725"

Rainman, what was the approximate ratio of water to powdered alum? I think I'll only need to use about 200lbs of alum and followed by 100lbs of hydrated lime to be safe. I'm estimating this for about 3.33 acre feet since my 1/2 acre pond is couple of feet low right now. Just trying to an idea of how much water I'll be pumping to appropriately scale equipment.

Just to be clear, Alum is aluminum potassium sulfate right?

Wikipedia says hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate with the formula KAl(SO4)

Ryan, the alum we are referring to is NOT Aluminum Potassium Sulfate (KAl(SO4)), it is Aluminum Sulfate (Al2(SO4)3).

Also, the best mix ratio is 10 pounds water to 1 pound alum. You will be fine with 2 gallons water to each pound of alum. Be sure to add HYDRATED lime while applying the alum.

DO NOT MIX THE ALUM AND HYDRATED LIME IN THE SAME CONTAINER!!!! You will get a thick paste!

I usually pour in the Hydrated lime straight out of the bag from the side of the boat while I am spraying the alum slurry. The lime will disperse quickly without pre-mixing.

If anyone wants to talk to me about applying alum, just send me a PM.

Most large chemical companies supply alum at a very reasonable price. I use GS Robins, but you can contact any water treatment plant to find the local supplier. I don't, but you SHOULD use a good dust mask when pouring the dry alum and hydrated lime. One whiff of the dust will teach you not to breath in while pouring.

Did the Alum treatment thing today & think it went ok. It did lower the pH from 7 to 6.5 in spite of 500lbs lime. I put out 1000lbs of Alum on about 2 1/2 surface acres. My set up was to use pontoon boat with 80 gal water trough to mix the Alum in



I tied a float to the suction side, threw it overboard, then filled the trough with 50 gal water



Then added 50lb Alum & mixed it with an oar.



Then put the suction side in the trough & sprayed the slurry over the pond surface



The water was starting to clear after about 5 hrs(went from 3" to 9" visibility)of spraying, so will interested to see how it looks this weekend..du

Nice setup and method David!

Question.. Is that a bag of limestone or Hydrated lime? I'm asking bcause if it is limestone (ag lime), it will be very, very slow to offset the ph.

If you decide you need to add more alum, put the discharge near the prop wash or use a nozzle to "fan" the spray. The alum tends to drop quickly with the flock and the wider the spray, the better the floc.

Looks good, and I hope it does great for you!

From the experiances I have had with applying the alum, you may need to use another thousand pounds to get ALL the clay out of suspension for the best, longest lasting results.

Rainman, all very observant, good points. Half the lime was hydrated & half was ag(had on hand). I did buy another 1000lb Alum anticipating just what you suggested. The picture of the hose was for picture-taking only(by myself) & I did spray it like you were watering the yard, BTW, that stuff really burns the eyes on contact..du

I take it these heavy doses of alum also bind up the planktonic algae too. Is the alum simply removing the planktonic algae or is it also reducing the nutrients in the water?

IIRC it binds phosphorus (?).

Ryan Freeze, this article explains some of what Alum does in pond water http://www.minneapolisparks.org/default.asp?PageID=832

That's a good article.

What if I waited until the pond froze over and spread the alum and hydrated lime over the ice evenly with my fertilizer spreader? Would it mix enough as the pond thawed to do it's job?

Good question Ryan.

I'm sure it would mix, but probably wouldn't work since tyhe ice will melt slowly and in differant areas. As one area melted, untreated water would fill the void left by the treated area.
If the aluminum didn't fall from the water column, it might work quite well.

You IIRC correctly sir!

Like many pond matters it is a question of balance. WRT the article above it repeats a misconception as to recreational ponds , that is if you want fish. Removing all the P by bonding with Alum is not a good idea for the food chain. No P - no plankton (bottom of the food chain). There is usually one big difference between fish ponds and waste water treatment ponds - one is good for fishing the other not.

I like fish so IMO alum is not the way to treat FA. Alum when used correctly is a good tool to treat clay turbidity.

I could not agree more! Used the article reference only to clear up up how Alum affected phytoplankton, but not endorse it as a method for controlling it...du

david u good article and discussion of alum. Thanks for posting it. My comment was to remind those here with a goal of creating a pond that looks like a swimming pool with lots of big fish in it that some goals are hard accomplish. I knew that you were not advocating alum to get rid of FA. Just did not want those viewers with desperate FA problems to think it was an easy FA fix without consequences.

Everything in moderation, as they say.

Clay turbidity in my pond was horrible. I added alum until the turbidity is down to an almost acceptable level, and decided not to add more. I'm enjoying an algae and mostly weed free pond for now, until it finishes clearing naturally.

bobad can you comment on your alkalinity and fertility ? My guess is that your lack of FA is not from no P (i.e. the alum binding all the P into a non-soluble form).

I am just guessing, but I think it's from clay turbidity. When the pond is down about 12-14", I have about 16-18" visibility. When it's near full pool, as it's been for most of the past year, visibility is only ~12". I can see a little algae in the shallows, but not much. I have applied enough lime and gypsum to have a bit of alkalinity, but have never tested. Since my pond is basically a sky pond, fertility should be fairly low. I have only added 2 bags of 13-13-13 in 2 years.

Thanks. I would guess based on that info that you have P available in the water and soil in a non-bound condition. Alum probably reduced the amount but the 13-13-13 and lime put the water back in good condition. You could get the LSU ag center to do a soil and water test - its not expensive and provides good data to work from.

http://www.stpal.lsu.edu/FAQ/fee.asp
Soil Test and Plant Analysis Lab
School of Plant, Environmental, and Soil Science
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70803

Phone: 225-578-1261
Fax: 225-578-1403
E-Mail: stpal@agcenter.lsu.edu
Website: http://www.stpal.lsu.edu

My pond has been fertile from day 1 plus I've been feeding for 6 years and the past couple have been pretty dry and there hasn't been enough rain to flush excess nutrient out. My pond is 2.5' low right now so those nutrients are concentrated. Visability two weeks ago was around 8" where in the past it was 16" to 20" due to suspended clay and plankton. How much harm can I do by adding 60lbs of alum per acre foot followed by 40% hydrated lime?

Ryan, I think you will be in good shape! IF you need nutrients next spring, I go with the Miracle Grow concentrated liquid fertilizer from Wallt-World----Cheap and effective without too much "P".

I agree 100% with you ewest!

My use of alum has been due to EXTREME clay turbidity which prevented anything BUT, FA from growing. After 3 years since building the pond, other than FA growing, the ONLY plant in the pond was a single Arrow Arum that grew from the base of an exposed rootball when the pond was lowered 12 feet for some Dam reworking.

As I said, I agree with you. I don't want a swimming-pool-pond, but with no light penetration, it HAD to be cleared to have a chance to grow anything other than FA.

No doubt clay turbidity and or FA (or for that matter duckweed or a host of other plants)can be serious problems. The answer mostly depends on the soil or water contents. That is where I suggest everyone start - with soil and water sample analysis. I suggest them even if there is no problem because it gives you a baseline for making changes and assessing change over time.

If I apply alum, what should I do with my bottom diffuser aeration?

Turn it off?

or

Leave it on?

or

Turn it off during application then turn it back on XX hours after application?

or

Leave it running during application then turn it off for XX hours?

You should turn it off for about 48 hours. If you've used enough alum to get all the clay, the flocculation will have ceased by then. The floc will then slowly compress itself over time on the bottom. EVERYTHING in the pond will have a sediment layer on it untill the fish dust their house clean.

Best of luck Ryan, and take your time! try to apply the alum for water depth. Deeper water = more alum.

I'm going to give this a try this morning. My pH is reading 7.4 using a Senior Deluxe pH test kit made by Wardley. The range is only 6.2 to 7.4 but the water in our area almost always has a high pH. Water temp is 62 degrees. Visability is 7". The picture is looking off the end of my dock. There is a large clay tile about 13" under the surface, hopefully we'll be able to see it once the alum is applied.


Since my pH is so high, should I even bother adding the hydrated lime? or should I just monitor it and only add the hydrated lime if it drops below 7?

I finished applying 200lbs of alum. It went pretty well. I dumped a bag of alum in the rubbermaid tub then used a David U mixing device while adding pond water being pumped from a 2" electric trash pump. I used the pump for pumping the slurry too.



I walked around the pond, spraying from the edge. I could reach all but about the middle 20'. There was a little wind, so hopefully I got some drift. My measurements at 12:30 today were, 7.2 pH, 63 deg. temp, and 12" visability.


Here's the comparison pic from the end of the dock. I can just barely see the tile now.


The following must be the floc everyone is talking about. It formed pretty quickly and grew as time went by. The wind pushed more of it into this corner. These pics were taken about two hours after I started applying

I ended up turning my aerator on about 8 hours after the application. Some of the floc is floating on the surface where the wind piled it up. Visablilty last night was between 18" and 20". The fish were eating and no casualties so far.

That floating floc stuff will disappear. I got a report yesterday from my neighbor that my pond was getting a blue-green tint to it, which it has never had. He didn't know what the visibility was. Guess the clearing is a gradual process & maybe I'll get some algae blooms or other normal pond processes. Anyway Ryan, I was ready to go back up & put more Alum in, but believe patience might be in order..du

I'm satified at this point. Are you aerating your pond?

My aerator is still running so it will be interesting to see if it makes a difference either way.

Ryan, no I am not aerating..

Man, talk about being REALLY bummed out!!

The wife has recovered enough that we went to our property to see the pond for the first time since early July. The Alum had been applied in very late June and since the application the rain guage shows 15" of rain have fallen and the pond was down about 3 feet. I fear there may be another leak.

The pond is as muddy or worse than it was before the alum was applied! I gathered a sample in a jar to see if it would clear. IT DIDN'T! My CC have spawned successfully due to the turbidity and I was hoping they were the cause.

I am considering one more application of alum, 2000 pounds this time. and purchasing some floc logs as a maintainer of clarity.

Any one else have some thoughts on this problem, or should I just start managing the pond for catfish?

Rainman, I think I would address the leak issue.

Is the clay coming in with runoff?

BTW the floating floc at my place sunk on it's own a by Tuesday night.

Ryan, I'm not sure I have a leak. A pond I use for comparison was also low. We had very low humidity for the area for about a month after the remnants of Ike rolled through. Plus it has only been about 10 months after major underwater borrow areas have been covered with water since some repairs were made, so it may still be "wicking" as well

I still have some areas of exposed clay (it's getting smaller every week), but I had hoped to have over applied enough to compensate for additional runoff.

I think your "Floating" floc was actually algae and as the gasses created by instant decay dispersed, it sank. When I was lazy and just poured in alum and lime, I had tons of algae gas-up and float up from the bottom afterward. It lasted less than a week. It also didn't clear anything.

I collected some water samples from my pond and a friends pond a couple weeks ago and just got around to trying out the alum.

I thought that this was pretty cool. It is picture of the sample from my pond. The visibility before I added the alum was near zero. The application rate was about .32g per gallon.

Chris, Sedimentation starts off fast, but keeps settling slower and slower. I bet the 2" of sediment in the jug will compact to 1" in a week or 2. I had a test bottle in my shop that I forgot about for ~6 months, and it finally settled down to 1/4".

Dang Chris!!!! that is a HUGE amount of sediment in one gallon!!

My vis. is around 2 inches and I only get 1/4 inch of sediment.

Did any settle out before adding the alum?

Not one bit. I had it sitting around for at least a week before I added the alum.

I marked the sediment line today so we will see how much ends up settling out. The sediment is still fluid so it has a long way to go.

Chris, has you sediment layer settled any more???

I just checked it and it has settled 1/2 of an inch since the 18th.

And thats what it all boils down to.

It's amazing how much soil was in that small quantity of water!

Has the pond cleared yet? If not, any plans to treat it with alum?

I have a pond that appears muddy. However, when I dipped up a jar of it, it didn't look all that bad. After a week, I saw a very small amount of sediment at the bottom of the jar. Would alum help?

No it hasn't cleared yet. We will probably wait till the grass starts growing before we try using the alum.

Dave, go to a grocery store and get a little bottle of alum and try it out. It should only be a buck or two.

What if I drained my pond and spread alum all over the bottom then refilled it? Would that hold the mud down?????
AZBLUE

Welcome to the forum azblue! Sure glad you're joining in!

To answer your question about ground application of alum---Not too well. Alum is intended to remove already suspended particles. There is a product called Silt Stop that amkes the ground soil stick together and contains bio-safe polymers that prevent turbidity and are used in construction areas. Send me a PM and I will get you the company contact info.

Rainman;
Thanks a lot. I really need to get this yuck settled down. Where do I find Silt Stop? What's a PM? Sorry, I really don't know!
I have some Catfish in the pond. Do they keep the water messed up?
AZ Blue

PM= Private Message

When you say catfish, what kind? Channel don't disturb the bottom much when foraging, where Bullheads and common carp will muddy any waters.

Do you have exposed clay above the waterline? If so, that will need to be vegitated before anything will clear the water.

Have you done a jar test? Put some pond water in a clear jar and let it sit undisturbed for several days. If the water clears something mechanical is muddying the water (fish, wave action, cattle, etc) If nothing, or VERY little settles to the bottom, other means will be required to clear the suspended solids. (alum, barley straw, hay, polymers, lime, gypsum, etc)

And how many catfish are "some"? Very large populations are more likely to stir up bottom sediments while looking for food than small ones.

I was thinking about clearing up my pond now even though it is not full yet. Should I go ahead and clear it now or wait?

Do the exposed clay areas have cover or did you cover it with topsoil? If not, incoming clay will suspend since the aluminum will sink to the bottom with the floc.

The only exposed clay is in the pond basin.

What about the uncovered pool area Chris? Covered with some vegitation? How turbulent will the inflow be in a heavy rain event? Stirring up the flocculated solids won't be an issue. new solids will.

No vegitation at the moment.

The watershed is relatively flat until it gets to the pond where it then changes to a 1:5 slope for about 25 feet.

I think you're better off waiting till it's full. If you put your FH in yet, they seem to like the muddy water.

Did you throw some Ag lime in yet? It's cheap delivered and can't harm anything. It may clear the water on it's own and will continue to floc incoming solids. Plus, if you DO need to use alum, you may not need the hydrated lime.

If you want to clear it now and your inflow is pretty confined, you could add a pond log to floc out any incming colloidal clay. You can also suspend one or more above an aerator to clear the pond slowly.

What's a pond log? A barrier at the input or?

Dave, The pond log is the name of a relatively new product specifically formulated with polymers to rapidly floc suspended solids from water. It was first designed for construction soil run-off control. Set up correctly in stages 1000's of gallons per minute of muddy water come in and crystal clear water flows out. It appears to be getting some very good reviews and is relatively inexpensive at about $100 per "log". The company does a free water sample test, sends you the results along with the formula number/qty required.

When I can get back to my pond, I plan to try their complete "Silt Stop" system. Here is some info. http://www.siltstop.com/flog_log_aps_700.html

IIRC, Sue has tested it. Greg Grimes may be a distributer--not sure.

Used all the time in erosion contol in ATL. Never tried the logs in pond. I will apply alum this week to pond sealed with sodium bentonite. It has been 6 weeks since complete and stil very turbid. I will let yall know results.

Rainman,

This is what I am dealing with( look at the left bank). The grass is going to be planted soon and will be irrigated. I think I have around 450 feet of bank. I may just clear it now and go back and do small applications as needed.

Chris, I have far less exposed are than you and after one medium rain, all the money spent on alum was wasted. The Alum does not stay in the water column. As the negatively charged particle attach to the positively charged aluminum, the Floc falls to the bottom and only helps to settle back out what is disturbed, ie like when you walk in it after clearing.

Been there done that! Wait till you get vegitation to control the erosion and run-off. Try about 15 ton of ag lime thrown into the pond and around the edges---it can only help.

A suggestion for mixing the Alum, use a trolling motor (if you have one). I found that I use half the amouunt of alum when mixed with a trolling motor for the same results verses simple paddle mixing. I do this in a 55 gallon drum and then spray the results with a 2" trash pump. I spend 10 minutes letting it churn. Since the 4" rain we had the other day here outside of Houston, I have a terrible clay problem.

Great idea Ken! If I used a trash pump, I might try to fire it out through a reducer for distance and improved spray though......Maybe a 1/4" or 3/8" pipe nipple about 4-6" long.

Good point Rainman. I actually shoot it across the pond with a 1" hose, necked down from the 2" outlet. This allows me to shoot it a good 80 to 90 feet, with a pretty good pattern.
Since this is a new pond constucted last fall, and has a tremendouse amount of clay, I am trying this spray method on the banks to keep the bermuda seed/grass to grow. We have had such a bad drought here in central Texas, any means to get grass growing and hopefully keep that darn clay in the ground verses the pond is a good idea. I am ready to line/spray the banks with gunite if I can't solve this very strong clay problem.

If you have a bottom diffuser, mix it up in your boat and just keep pouring it in the bubbles. I've had pretty good luck with mine clearing up after a rain since it was 1st put in a year ago.

Alum (Aluminum Sulfate) mixed with Gypsum in a 55 gal drum worked well for my 3/4 acre pond. It turns to milk chocolate after heavy rains due to ag run off. The slurry needs to be sprayed across as much surface area as possible. You will see results in a couple of days. Don't over apply--- will change ph.

If you're in the Dallas area, the Alum and Gypsum are available at Southland Farm Store near Love Field. They also take care of my fish food needs.

Thanks GeorgeS; do you have to order it in advance or do they keep it in stock? What kind of prices are we talking about?

Can aluminum sulfate be mixed with hydrated lime prior to making the slurry of 10 parts water to 1 part alum/lime mix so as to prevent the pH swing caused by adding them to the pond separately?

Man what a diff. We kept pH above 5 ppm. okie we mixed hydrated with alum but quickly changed our mind on that it did not go into solution as easily. We just poured it straight out of bag behind boat since we were just using it as buffer. The alum we mixed in tub with water at close to 8 to 1 and mixed with paddle then used motor to spray out until we broke a pipe then simply poured slurry into prop of trolling motor wash.

Visibility went from 8 inches to 18inches in about three hours of doing the job. Client called this morning 36 inches and I hope it may be clearer by tommmorrow. We used 4 bags alum 2 bags hydrated lime for a 0.38 acrepond avg depth of 6 feet. I plan to fertilize the pond next week to build back some phytoplankton. Thanks for everyones advice especailly rainman since I used his contact for purchase.

It was my pleasure Greg! I had the time and knew where to look.

BTW Greg, You've got sitter services again at the conference.

hello! I am totally new here and have joined as I am at a loss of acquiring Ponder Pond clarifier. I have had my pond dug to make it larger to house Rainbow trout. I have yet to pick up said trout as my pond looks like coffee with lots of milk from the clay particles suspended. It has been a week and it is still the same clarity. My question is this, How safe is alum for Rainbow Trout? Should I wait a couple weeks before I stock my pond? This is all depending on whether or not I can even get Alum. Any information would be totally appreciated. I am afraid that without a clarifier it will not clear as they have not even begun to settle after a week.
Thank you in advance! Super great pictures of your pond clearing!
Thank you so much in advance!
Dianne

Dianne, welcome to the forum... Always good to welcome another neighbor from the north.

If you don't get the answer you're looking for here, you may want to start your own separate post which may get more eyes looking at and give it more likelihood of your question being answered.

Certainly! Thank you!

GUys you talk about spraying the alum slurry into the pond> How do you go about doing that?

3.5, I use a boomless sprayer. It is slow but very effective. Others have used trash pumps with a nozzel by reducing down the outlet to raise pressure if the ENTIRE surface can be sprayed. You'd have to lug the pump and hose around a lot though.

Rainman, I would have to move the pump from one side of the pond to the other. Lot of work but willing to do that. Put 160# of gypsum in the pond three weeks ago in the prop wash of a trolling motor. Saw it two days later, no change. Going up this weekend and hope to see better results. We let you know. Thanks for the info

Folks,back again. No rain and three weeks after adding the gypsum to the pond has still left it "milky" looking. I was so hoping to clear it up prior to adding fish but have I waited too late in the summer to add BG, FHM, RE and so forth. Temps in Livingston are hitting 100F.
When I originally did the A&M test with the gallon of water it said 280# but hat got my sample water cyrstal clear. Am I thinking wrong that if my water is that clear do I stand more of a chance for WT buffet?? Need some help, maybe I am over thinking this thing.

I know this is an old topic but, I have a pond that is approx 11,200 sq. ft. on the surface and about a 5 ft av. depth. I did a jar test with 1 gal. of water and 1 tbls cleared it in about 8 hours. How much alum would be needed? Also, would applying it from a small boat by dumping it in the motor wash work?

Mixing the alum into a slurry in a 5 gallon bucket first before pouring into the propwash will work better. Be sure to add 50% of HYDRATED lime seperately to keep the PH from dropping much.

As you only have about 1.3 ace/ft of water, I'd suggest 100 pounds of alum and 50 pounds of hydrated lime. If it doesn't clear in 24 hours, add 50 more pounds of alum, Hy Lime could be optional on the second app.

3.5, I'm sorry I missed this post! The goal when clearing a pond of colloidal clay turbidity shoud be crystal clear water by removing ALL suspended solids. If your water has any fertility at all, a bloom will begin almost immediately, often as the water clears from top to bottom. You want he desired clarity, normally from 18-30 inches, to be from a bloom, never from turbidity.

Thanks Rainman! . I was close on my estimate but after looking at about a dozen different equations, my head hurt! I'll give it a shot this weekend and let you know how it came out.

I re-did my jar test a couple of weeks ago the way it was supposed to be done and found that the jar with the 3 tbls of the solution cleared in about 24 hrs. This weekend I added 300 lbs of alum by first mixing a 50 lb bag in 35 gal of water and spraying it out onto the pond. I couldn't get all around the pond but covered alot of it. After 3 days, i can't tell if it has cleared much at all. Will this method of application work??
Thanks for all the help!!

I've added some before and after pics. the before is right after I bought the place and the after is recently. I can't tell much difference in the water clarity. it was only about 4 ft deep, now it's about 12 ft average. I'm not sure about loading the pics but let's see what happens.

http://s1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/bmncool1/?action=view¤t=IMG_0058.jpg

http://s1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/bmncool1/?action=view¤t=IMG_1148.jpg

http://s1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/bmncool1/?action=view¤t=IMG_1149.jpg

Cisco, it is funny the way alum works; it seems it is either all or nothing. Once you get the right amount, it will clear up in 2-3 days. Not knowing where Cisco is; maybe the hill country? As Rainman suggested, every time you use alum, use 1/2 as much quick lime. You may have a high enough ph not to need to. I bet the 300# will clear it this week. Nice looking pond, ans especially the covered dock.

I know they get a lot of caliche rock(calcium carbonate) over by Cisco,Tx so would think the pH would be rather high. Cisco, have you tested your water? You may have to add Alum without any lime? Not sure of the effects of a very high pH on Alum's ability to floc out the suspended clay...du

Thanks for the replies. I have not tested the water but i will this weekend. Birger, Cisco is about 30 mi east of Abilene. most of the caliche is quite abit south of me but there is probably some there. I do have another unrealate question, is it too late to stock FHM and BG? I'm hoping the pond fills to full pool this spring and was planning on stocking LMB in the early summer.
Again, thanks for the help, I'm new to this so i have a lot of questions. I just got the Magazine! This is a great Website guys, keep it up.

After last weekend, the pond has cleared up a bit. I can see about12-18 inches deep now. I did put in 500 BG, 250 RES and about 10 lbs of FHM. I'm hoping to get a good enough spawn to support the LMB I'm putting in in the spring. I may have to add some more Alum but as long as it clears up some, I'll be happy.

If a jar of my turbid lake water clears by itself sitting on a shelf in one week, does that show I do not have clay turbidity?
Does it mean I just have physical disturbance ie. aeration currents, bullhead cats, grass carp and or wind problems in my 2 acres pond?

I would guess it's something other than turbidity Skoag but the others on here will give you a much better idea. My pond stayed so muddy for so long I thought it was the catfish so i caught most of them out. It still stayed muddy. Somebody will here will give you a better answer.

Has anyone ever used liquid aluminum sulphate? I found a distibutor that sells it this way in addition to powdered

MPD, check your costs for each. A 55g barrel of liquid AlSO4 is equal to 1, 50# bag of powder/granular alum.

The liquid is usually 3-5 times the price of the dry form.

I planned on checking prices, I just hadn't seen anyone talking about the liquid.

MPD74---I forgot to add that you need to have a CDL with a Hazmat endorsement to buy/pickup/haul the liquid. Part of the new Homeland Security requirements placed on all chemical companies---dry Alum does not require anything like the liquid does.

Got some powerded stuff that I'm picking up this week and applying this weekedn. I was thinking about trying to spray the slurry over the water with a pressure washer. Any one got any thoughts on if this will work, or why I shouldnt try?

The nozzle on the sprayer is small so you want to dissolve the Alum very well or it may plug up the tip. High pressure usually means a fairly low flow though. You won't want the spray pattern too fine or it will blow all over the place and get in your eyes and lungs.

I cleared my pond yesterday. I have .35 surface acres and calculate that at 2.07 acre feet based on my average depth. I did the jug test and it took about 3 tablespoons of alum to clear the jug in 12 hours. Based on the TAMU table, I used 5ea 50lb sacks ($17/bag at Estes in Houston) of Aluminum Sulfate (250 lbs) mixed in a 55 gallon drum (one at at a time) and sprayed out over the pond using a 2" trash pump with a fire nozzle on the discharge hose. I then followed up with about 120 lbs of hydrated lime. It has cleared somewhat in the first 18 hours. I thought it would be much clearer at this point since I used a little more alum than my calculations called for.

Will it clear more as days go by?

I did catch a bass on my first cast this morning. They obviously can see much better than yesterday...

Sounds like you did things just right. Good job. It probably cleared more than you think. You just about have to measure visibility with a white coffee cup or sechhi disk. A muddy pond with 8" or 18" visibility doesnt look much different. If you caught a bass on artificial, sounds like its working.

Billfish, phytoplankton growth will explode with the added clarity of the water and can make the clearing seem less than it is as well.....Good job!!!

I know my FHM spawn and the other little fishes are all very nervous right now. I think the Blue Cats and Largemouth are all going to get fat real soon

I just got home from my place. My pond doesn't look like it's cleared any more. I applied 800 lbs of alum and 300 lbs of lime 3 weeks ago. Not sure what's going on with it but it will not clear up. I did catch a bass in the smaller pond. The small pond is muddier than the big one.

Cisco, your clay may be exceptional in it's negative charge, or, you may have some serious mechanical disturbance occuring. Either by fish or wind/wave action.

I don't think it's fish Rainman. I drained the pond and dug it out in August of last year. I thought it was due to the CC but we caught most of them (I think) out. But after the draining and digging, it still cathces some wind but we moved all the silt/mud up around the pond so it's not getting near as much as it did. I'm at a loss as to what's causing it. I'm about done with dumping the $$ in it. Wait, I'll never be done with that will I!!

Let me be a little clearer. I think faster than I can type, the only fish in the pond now are the BG,RES and FHM I stocked in December.

Rainman,

I got the amount of alum and lime you recommended (200 lb alum and 100 lb lime) and as soon as we find a pump, we will be ready to apply.

.7 acre feet of water and a surface acreage of .068. 3 years ago stocked 100 cc, 100 bg and 10 lmb. The largest cc I've caught has been 8 lb. Bg the size of my hand. We only caught one lmb last year, so I recently added 10 more.

Should I be worried about errosion? Added pic to show current clarity.

I'm also wondering about when is the best time to do this? I have a backyard party planned for this Saturday. If I do this today or tomorrow, will my pond be appealing Saturday? Will the floc be unsightly?

Also, I tested the Ph with a pool strip and it was above 9.0.

Well I added 400LBs alum. sulfate and 200lbs lime first week in april. no noticable change. i did notice a change as i sprayed, but went away. This weekend I will be adding 300 more lbs alum. sulfate and 150lbs lime. Im just hoping that my average depth estimation was too shallow.

I've seen where people have tried two or three times to clear the water, and after the next application BAM, the water clears like magic. I think it's all about getting the correct amount of stuff in the pond. Calculating water volume is a hard thing to do in a pond!

Chandler1, your PH can change dramatically thoughout the day, but 9 is pretty high. I would opt for a much more accurate test to be sure. Some organic floc may float, but suspended clay will sink rapidly...with the rather high alum rate I suggested, your pond should be very clear in less than a day and unless runoff flows though the pond, new erosion will sink as well.

I would get the eroded spots covered with some decorative rip rap if it were my pond in such a beautiful setting!

It looks great!

Thank you for answering!

If we do not test any further, but apply the alum and lime that we bought, are we in danger of harming the fish? That is our biggest worry. We worry that our measurements are off and the amount of alum and lime may not be correct. Is that a viable concern?

>I've seen where people have tried two or three times to clear the water, and after the next application BAM, the water clears like >magic. I think it's all about getting the correct amount of stuff in the pond. Calculating water volume is a hard thing to do in a pond!


You hit the nail on the head. Not using enough alum will fail to clear it every time. Blaming other things just takes you on a wild goose chase. Not saying to just add alum until the water clears, because runoff ponds can easily become too acidic. As long as water is pH 7 or above, you can probably safely add alum until it clears up.

Chandler1, as chemicals, the alum and lime pose no danger to your fish. Your high PH would allow you to add only the alum, which should always be applied first anyway. The hydrated lime can raise the PH to lethal levels rapidly and is why it should never be applied first.

Alum will lower your PH, but it occurs slowly. With your PH at 9, you might benefit from not adding the hydrated lime at all. Keep some test strips handy, test your PH BEFORE applying all 200 pounds of Alum and then check your PH every 15 minutes or so after all the alum is applied for a couple hours. If your PH only drops by .1 or .3 every 15 minutes, your fish will be just fine with no danger of PH shock. If the PH drops by more than .5 in 15 minutes, broadcast spread the lime to counteract the alum, but I don't see you needing to do this.

Thanks, Rainman! Hopefully, we will get around to doing this in the next week. I'll post after pictures!

We have a water well and Allen plans to run a water hose to a tub where we will make the alum slurry to broadcast on the pond. It doesn't make any difference if it's a slurry made with well water versus slurry made of pond water does it?

Also, we have a make-up pipe run to our pond. In the summer, have a timer set to run well water into the pond weekly to keep the water level up. Will that have a negative effect on our clarity once the water is clear?

IMHO, the well water will work fine to make the slurry. The well water running into the pond this summer will probably help with the clarity issues. Number one the well water will itself be clear and number two keeping the water level up should prevent erosion of any shoreline that is not vegetated. The one caveat is the pH of your well water. There are two major aquifers in your area, the Woodbine & Trinity, and both have high pH's..du

Thanks, David. I hope this works. Saturday is the day. Do you have any idea where I can get some rock rip rap?

Well the 300 lbs aluminum sulfate last sunday I could see the changes very soon after application. Well see this weekend what it looks like. The aerator was preventing good mixing. I know it sounds backwards but when i turned it off the treated water mixed much better with the undtreated.

Today was the day! We put all of the alum and lime in. This is what it looked like after the application (which took Allen 3 hours.

MPD74, the aerator should have been left off for several hours to allow the floc to settle. The turbulance the bubbles create keeps much of the clay in suspension. Where are some pics???

Chandler1---Absolutely awesome!!!! that coating on the plants will get cleaned off quickly too.

I've put a distress call in to you, Rainman. This morning, we find the pond as clear as bathwater and several dead fish around the edges. Not all, by a long shot, but still enough to be disturbing. I checked the ph and it was still low, so I bought two more 50 lb bags of lime. We added one bag and will check the ph again shortly.

We also turned on the aerator and the well water to further neutralize the pond.

Also, we have two indoor dogs. When I let them out, they tend to go to the pond when they are thirsty. I also have a pair of ducks that have made our backyard their home. Is it dangerous for any of them? There are a few patches on the ground where we spilled either alum or lime. I think I should go and clean those up right away. Any comments on how thorough I should be to make it safe for dogs and ducks?

I just checked the ph again, and it's up to a good level now. Do you think I'll have any more fish kill or do you think it's over?

I've put out some fish food, but they are not eating, but staying at the bottom. When do you think they will eat?

Do you have any suggestions? You have my number, Rainman. I would very much appreciate a phone call.

I'm not sure what caused the kill, but my sympathy is with you!!! You can just hose off the spilled areas in to the pond, no more harm will be caused. Don't try feeding for 2-3 days to let the fish recover and we can hope that most fish survived.

Here you can see the shallow water going into deep.

Well, it's been a busy day. We did lose a lot of fish. Tradeoff is a pretty pond. I can hardly wait two or three days before I feed them and try to fish. Right now, I can see hundreds of little bluegill and/or minnows. I see some larger bluegill. I see two or three 8 or 10 lb cats roaming the bottom. But oddly enough, not many middle-of-the-road fish! I hope they are lurking in the bottom of the deepest part and laying low.

I lost a beautiful gold and white goldfish. I saw goldfish last year and decided our great blue heron may have deposited some fish eggs that were trapped on his feet. OUr neighbor has a koi pond and I've seen the heron over there, too. But I did see one pretty goldfish swimming pretty strongly, so they aren't all gone.

I hope this helps others to know to watch that PH carefully!

I had read a lot of information about the aerator, and majority said to leave it on and even dump the slurry into the column of bubbles. I did turn it off after I was done last week and it was off all week. I 'll look for some photos of before and I have some from this weekend. Mine look similar to those that chandler1 posted. Although not as clear in the after. Mine looks more like a milky green, but its a definate improvement. Should I add more aluminum sulphate? I could even see some fish and the dark outline of an old sunken cedar tree from two years ago.

I'm still not seeing many fish, other than a lot of little minnow size blue gill and bass. This morning there was our great blue heron standing in the water with a fish in his mouth. He probably appreciates our clearing the pond for him! No wonder I don't see any fish. They are all at the bottom trembling in their boots!

If it doesn't rain tomorrow, I'm going to be out there bottom fishing with chicken livers trying to catch a fish! They still aren't interested in the fish food.

Oh, and the pretty aqua color is changing to green now and it's not quite as clear as before. Probably because we've added well water to dilute the lime and alum.

I've seen swimming pools that don't look that nice!!!!!!!!!

I found one more cc, about 2 lbs. floating this morning. I fished the bottom and also with a bobber (I only had worms), but there was only meager interest. I do see dozens of little fish following my hook with the worm on it, so the pond is not "empty". Where are the big fish? Did they all die? Or are they still down below?

Does anybody know where in Denton I could take a water sample to be tested properly and give suggestions on whether I should do anything? I worry that the rest of the fish are sick and if I don't do something, I'll be scooping up fish every day until they are all gone.

I know I'm obsessed at this point. I love the pretty pond, but healthy fish are more important!

Obsessed huh? Yeah, we all are. The best analysis is at TAMU. Go to their website for directions on what to do. Post the results here.

In the meantime, get a sample in a clean jar and take it to a pool supply store. They often can tell you about alkilinity, hardness and PH.

Here are the before and after pics. Any thoughts?

I've never dealt with this sort of thing before, but it sure looks like you had a good result. The after pic seems to be nice looking, healthy green hued water.

Is that the top of the feeder in the water??

That color sure looks better!!

MPD, from experience, it looks like not quite enough alum was used to get full clearing, but hopefully the bloom that immediately began with the light penetration will help remove more suspended clay for you.......a good guess would be that 25-35% more Alum would put you over the top and clear the pond completely of suspended clay.

ESSUP: No, thats a tire that broke loose from its cage. I didn't have exactly the same angle.

RAINMAN: I myself forgot how muddy it was initially until I went back to find the before photo to post. I realize now how much the first 400 lbs really did help, then another 300lbs got me to the above photo. I really was hoping that it was a nice bloom. I'll add some more this weekend weather permitting. I haven't seen any fishkill, I didn't really expect any, but was a little worried after reading the other posts by Chandler1. I had been worried about the fish in that water for two years, I did see some BG for the first time...that was encouraging.

MPD74

Chandler1's situation is very unique in that they used a very heavy dose, that I suggested to meet a stated goal, AND they have a very small volume of water making it easy to apply to the entire surface quickly...Still, I was surprised to see any more than a couple already sick fish died.

You don't have any of those special issues to worry about or contend with. Your bloom will build as the water clears due to the fertility that is apparent in your water...you are very close to it being cleared fully!

The color of my pond is now a deep green and most of the clarity is gone. I know you guys would probably recommend a second dose of alum, but I will never convince my husband to do it again. Not after all the fish we lost. Would it do any good to purchase some of the Pond Clear products from the Pond catalog I get regularly?

Either the cc finally came out of shock or the water finally got cloudy enough for them to eat yesterday. The largest cat you see is about 8 lbs.







http://picasaweb.google.com/jananchandler/RecentlyUpdated#5471496669921100514

Chandler1, the deep green is a natural and fertile bloom. It is a sign of healthy water and your fish will love it!

Thanks, Rainman! I certainly hope so! So I shouldn't try to get more clarity? Did you see the short video clip of my fish feeding? Did the rain muddy it up or is it just the fish stirring it up?

I know it seems I'm never satisfied! I realize that the pretty aqua color indicated a sterile pond and not a healthy long-term environment for the fish. But I hoped for clearer water.

Chandler1, your 1st issue with water clarity was due to suspended clay particles. Rainman walked you thru the correct process for clearing it. The decreased clarity now is due to the phytoplankton, or floating algae(the good kind for a fish pond) that is the beginning of the food chain. It is developing due to the decreased turbidity. Please dont add any more alum to your pond. It is clear of suspended particles. You needed to have enough lime on hand to neutralize the alum to prevent fish stress due to rapidly changing ph. Adding well water, which is inherently low in O2, to a small pond without spraying it into the air to oxygenate it, can cause low dissolved oxygen and also stress the fish. Your pond appears to be in a good natural state of fertility for this time of year. I am sorry for your fish loss; consider that they may not have been healthy and that the remaining ones will be better off. Goldfish are usually very hardy, so losing a few is unusual. Most people that want good fishing ponds avoid goldfish like the plague. It is hard for the small and beautiful pond to be all things. It looks like time to sit back and enjoy the fruits of your obviously hard labor of love.
Good luck and good fishin'.

Thank you, burgermeister. We run our fountain when we add well water, so hopefully the fish are not too stressed. I'm glad deep green is the color of a healthy pond, because that has been my real goal all along. The fish have always looked healthy and the flavor of the meat has never been muddy. I've read many articles about how good a muddy pond can be.

The gold fish were unexpected additions. It's fun to see a flash of gold now and then, but I never planned on a goldfish pond.

You and Rainman are right. It's time for me to sit back and enjoy the fruits of my labor. In fact, I think I'm going fishing! :0)

I wish I had held this up so you could get a better idea of size. I would guess this one to weigh about 7 lbs. What do you think... fat with food or with eggs? Does anybody know?

No way to tell unless you unzip it and look.

I added 200 lbs of aluminum sulfate to my pond last week with great results. That is only one bag for every three acres of water. The water is not crystal clear but went from about six inches of visibility to about thirty. I am very pleased with the results.

I wanted to give an update since we added the alum and lime to our pond. The water has cleared even more since it's bloom. It went from crystal clear aqua blue, to dark green. Now the pond is still green, but clear enough that I see all the fish eagerly swim up when I approach the pond, ready to be fed.

Even though I'm happy with the results, I still encourage everyone to apply the chemicals carefully, monitoring the ph the whole way if you want to avoid a fish kill.





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Couple year classes of CC, BG and Koi. Looks like it's time for a catfish fry! The water is looking really good.

How much of this should be added to a 1/4 acre pond?

At what temperatures should this be performed?

We have two ponds that have been cloudy for years, and we took a sample out to be tested and you could see all sorts of particles in the water suspended.

Anyway any thoughts on if I still have time to try this out this year.

Does it make a difference if Cattle get in these ponds?

Thanks

If you let the water sit in the jar, will the particles settle out (drop to the bottom) in a couple of days, or will they still stay suspended?

I think they stay suspended, but I will set the bottle back up and see.

Are they treated differently?

If so what steps do I need to take for either one?

Thanks

Yes, they are treated differently. One usually means mechanical control, the other one chemical control.

What type of chemical control do you use?


If it is mechanical what would I need to do?

I will check the bottle again tomorrow after it sits.

Thanks

Let me know if the particles stay suspended or settle out and I'll let you know what direction you should go.

it appears that the majority fell to the bottom, but still looks like a little is suspended.

Please let me know what I need to do.

Thanks

Well, if the majority settled out on it's own, a majority of it is caused by something stirring up the pond. If you don't have a lot of bullheads, catfish or carp in the pond, I'd say keep the cattle out via fence (mechanical means). If the majority of it didn't settle out on it's own, then I'd recommend going the chemical route (alum).

I have probably between 50 and 75 CC per acre, and they are all 16" or bigger and I don't have a turbudity problem. Visibility is more than 30". So, unless you have more bottom orientated fish than that, I'd say the majority of your problem is the cattle.

Ok, I'm VERY new here!! My pond filled up last year and the clarity has been lacking (clay bottomed @ 25' max depth). Is there a time frame necessary to wait before one applies alum?? I have "runoff" from heavy rains which run through the pond, would this constitute periodic reapplication?? Runoff is buffered by 100 yds of prairie grass (waist high). Sorry for being so stoopid but you folks have the knowledge and experience and I wish to borrow some! If there is anything you need to know about laser engraving----I'll step up to the plate in return!!!

Bruce

There should not be any bullheads in the pond, that is not to say they did not make their way in there somehow. A few CC should exist but I doubt they spawns as there should not be any structure for them to do so. There may have even been a Blue or Flathead introduced about 15 years ago, but not sure if they made it or were caught out.

As far as keeping the cows out that really is not an option at this time, what could I do or use if the cows stay in the pond?



What could happen if I use the Alum and that is not what I needed to do?

How much should I use for this pond?

Where can I purchase Alum?

Can you use Gypsum as well?

I have also heard that you can put sheetrock in your pond, is this true and what exactly does it do?

Thanks

MRHELLO:

I suggest you go to page one of this thread and slowly read thru all 8 pages, clicking on the links, reading those as well, and having a notebook handy to take notes. Most, if not all of your questions will be answered if you do that. I just read thru the thread and found all the answers to your questions with the exception of the ones about sheetrock (drywall). If you read the links in the post that Paul put up, your questions on drywall will be answered as well.

If you cannot keep the cattle out of the water (even fencing it so they can drink but not walk in the water would help greatly), then you will most likely have to live with the turbid water.

Ok since the water will more than likely stay turbid, would you recomend a certain combination of fish or does that type of water even matter?

My main reason for trying to clear it up was to see if I noticed any fish in there before adding more since we can not get anything to bite.

If that option is gone then I may just take a shot and add what would live best in turbid water.

Also have you heard of anyone putting Fresh Water Drum in their ponds, if so at what rate should the be stocked?

What would be the pros and cons of adding them to the mix?

MrHello,

I've never heard of people putting sheetrock in their ponds but sheetrock/plaster has a lot of gypsum in it which I'm guessing is where that idea came from. There's a place in So. California desert called Plaster City because it is a hub for the gypsum mines in the area. I've heard that the gypsum mined here is primarily used for plaster and sheetrock.

To all,

I have a question regarding the use of gypsum and alum: Are these treatments long term solutions or do they need to keep being applied? My specific concern is in irrigation reservoirs where the water retention time can be much shorter than most backyard ponds. It could get expensive to have to keep applying every time there is a water change. Also, would there be any reason to be concerned about Alum effect on plant physiology? I assume it would precipitate out with the clay and not get sucked in the intake. Can anyone comment on this?

Gypsum/sheetrock and Dolomitic limestone would be more "permanent" than Alum.

Gypsum and Lime would allow constant leaching of what is needed for clearer water (positively charged Ions). Alum will stay in suspension, except for what attaches to it and settles out, and flow out with rain or during irrigation.

Alum is a GCS chemical...Generally Considered Safe....and should have no ill effects on plants.

There are some research articles that claim links between Alzheimers and Aluminum, but none I am aware offer any proof to the claims and are all ignored by the FDA.....No doubt it causes cancer in California though, but I think just living in Ca. may cause it.

I have a small 1/4 acre pond in my yard. Built April of 09. Pond has been cloudy since its conception.I pumped 480 pounds of gypsum in slurry into it a few weeks ago. It helped some.now my visibility is maybe 12 inches. I even put 2 bales of pure alfalfa hay busted up into flakes trying to get some algae.
I tried the quart jar of pond water and the vinegar, that cleaned it up quite nicely.Should I just dump 25 gallons of white vinegar into the pond? It would be cheaper than alum or gypsum.
Do you guys think my next step should be alum? Or more gypsum?Or try the vinegar?

Be careful with the vinegar.. It may be only 3-6% acidity, but can drop your PH quickly shocking the fish to death.

If you have added Gypsum, you may want to add a ton or two of agricultural lime as well. A sprader truck can sling it straight in to the pond for a very reasonable price...plus you can't put in too much as the PH will slowly max out at 8.2, a very safe range.

The clearing is achieved from adding positively charged ions.

Thanks for the info Rainman

WOW.. What a thread. My eyes and brain are killing me now. Good info though for sure. Now for my darn questions.

Real small muddy pond (turns this way after spring every year from runoff on hill) I am in the process of diverting the makeup to be JUST the spring on the hillside and the ditch will be bypassing the pond soon.

Anyway I read this thread (probably missed some things) and bought some Aluminum Sulfate and some lime (gray powder) (and granular lime white)I think. Anyway I'm testing this in a 5 gal bucket and so far neither lime will stablize the ph drop after adding 3 oz aluminum sulfate and 3 oz of lime. The water turns gray with the gray lime and the granular doesn't hardly dissolve.

My question is what is the exact kind of lime I need to keep my ph in check? I hope to make this pond nice soon. Thanks in advance.

Darin

DarinRay,

Glad you learned a lot from the thread...it is getting better all the time.

As to your lime, it is critical you use HYDRATED lime, not simply Dolomitic Limestone. These limes are NOT the same.

Use half as much hydrated lime as you do alum...ie 100# alum and 50# hydrated lime.

Should this thread be archived?

Thanks Rainman... I am just glad that I tried it in a 5 gal pail than just mixed and threw in the pond.:) I will contact someone tomorrow to specifically ask for hydrated lime.

As soon as I figure the right recipe of aluminum sulfate and lime I will also show before and after pics.

We'll look forward to that....Click my link and call if you have questions.

Bumping this thread. I did the jar test with water from my newly dug pond, the turbidity did not settle out after 4-5 days so as a test, I added a teaspoon of dill pickle juice to the jar and the clay settled out very quickly.

Now I just need to figure out my application rate once I get some alum, then I can stock fish. Should I worry about PH since there are no fish in the pond yet? The pond is very turbid (chocolate milk) from several gully washers that we have had since it was built in April, too turbid to get a bloom started.

Shorty, pickled fish? Kosher crunchy or butter crisp?

Hi Folks,
I've been following this thread and am about to do the alum treatment to our 1/8 acre swimming pond. I had a quick question:

We have an aerator installed that's mixing the suspended clay and contributing to turbidity. We've had it off for several days and, while the pond seems to be clearing a little bit (maybe 2-4" of visibility), it's not settling quickly enough. My question is, should I run the aerator for, say, 24 hours to really mix up the suspended clay and then add the alum, or should I add it as the pond is now? My thinking is that we might trap out more clay if it were more thoroughly mixed? Any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
John

Shorty - IMO it is more important to get a good dense crop of vegetation growing on the watershed before implementing the alum treatment. If the water shed is not well grassed you may well have to do several alum treatments in the next couple years.

J-lion, Creating more suspended particles in the water column will probably result in needing more alum to get the same amount of clearing, assuming the same amount of alum was applied to each situation - less and more dense suspended clay. I would leave the aerator off for several days 2-5 after treatment to allow more complete settling of the flocculant in the deepest zone.

John:

Is the diffuser set right on the bottom of the pond? Is there any sort of dirt screen under the diffuser? If it is, and there isn't, I'd pull it up and either make a stand to set it up off the bottom of the pond by a foot or so, or place it in the center of a 2'x 2' or 3'x 3' piece of plastic to help stop it from stirring up the bottom sediment.

I am working on it Bill, I had wheat started in the pond basin before the pond started to fill, it just filled too quickly this spring for the wheat to get established well and help clear the water after it filled. It also didn't help that ag field in the water shed was plowed and then planted with corn just days before the first of several gully washers, a 1" rain in 30 minutes produces a lot of run off on top of already saturated ground. The corn is knee high now and the last 1" rain we had Saturday morning the water was clear coming out of the drain tile feeding into the pond. I do have oats, brome and rye coming up in my portion the water shed and around the pond. I also have three rows of straw bales staked out in the watershed to filter silt out of the run off. I will plant some prairie grass here shortly, I have to do some work on the seed drill I picked up before I can do that. I have delayed my fish stocking plans until I can get the water cleared and a bloom started. The only thing I have stocked are a couple dozen fatheads and golden shiners for mosquito larvae control. I did put 50 lbs of alum down yesterday and the water has gone from a 1/2" of visibilty to 6" aready but the Ph has dropped from 7.0 to 6.2, I won't do anymore until I can pick up some hydrated lime and bring the PH level back up. Right now getting the forage base started and vegetation growing is more important than getting fish stocked. Looks like I am going to have to be patient.

Kosher fatheads.

esshup:
Yes, the diffusers (two 9" micro bubblers) are attached to a mount that gets them about 10" off the bottom. When we first got it going earlier this spring, we noticed the increased turbidity problem, so I hauled it back up and mounted the whole shebang to two bread trays that got it another 8" off the bottom. So I'm figuring it's far enough off the bottom not to be the cause of the turbidity. My best guess is that there's so much suspended clay in the water column (about 12-13' where the diffuser is located) that the diffuser is just churning it around. We also have a bunch of koi in the pond that might be churning it up as well.

I'll be adding the alum today. We figured we have about 0.5 acre feet so judging from the tables we've found here, we're going to add about 25-30 pounds of alum.

And I'll leave the diffuser off--thanks Bill!

With the koi in the pond you might not be able to clear the water. If they keep distrubing the bottom sediment the problem will never go away, even with the alum.

Go ahead and add it, but if it clears up then gets cloudy again, I'd do a test in a 5 gal bucket with the alum. If it clears with the same alum ratio that you used in the pond, then I'd suspect the koi.

As esshup says for J-Lion, with ""a bunch of koi"" in the pond don't ever expect it to have clear visibilities at much greater than 2ft? In a pond of 0.5 acft (163,000gal) is and how many estimated koi & what their lengths are present. A pond size of 0.125ac (1/8ac, abt 5400 sqft) and 12 ft deep has to have some really steep side slopes if the pond does not have a V bottom. Why were koi added to a brand new pond?

I would not turn the aerator back on until you achive an acceptable water clarity. New ponds with bare bottom clay soil will often remain relativelty cloudy until 1. plant growth becomes established or 2. a benthic organic skin forms over the bottom sediments. Raw clay soil covered with water is usually very susceptable to easy resuspension of the fine clay particles.

I've been reading this thread and other info I can find, and I'm making preparations to use alum in my pond. I bought a pool test kit today, and the ph tested above the 8.2 max in the kit. I made a secchi disk and measured 18 inches of visibility. I also filled a quart jar with pond water to observe it for a few days. My pond is just shy of 3/4 of an acre, with an average depth of 6'. Lastly, I'm in the process of locating a local supplier of alum. Based on the info I provided, is it possible to determine how much alum I'll need? If I need to treat a gallon of water to see how much alum, where do I buy a very small quantity to test with? (I'm planning on monitoring my ph during the application and having lime standing by in case I need it) Thanks in advance for any advise you can give me!

Tom, if you decide to get another test kit this one is pretty good, and the PH tests to 9.5.
Good luck with your pond.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q...ved=0CCAQ8wIwAQ

Thanks for the tip....much appreciated!

Hi Folks,
Added alum yesterday and we're seeing quite a difference in water clarity--can see down a good 3' now I'd guess.

This is not a new pond--we dug it back in 1993 and have had mixed success over the years with water clarity, algae blooms, curly pond weed infestations, etc. We've had koi in it for about 6 years (just 3 small ones to start) but they hadn't started breeding until a year or two ago. (I'd love to get some bass in there to control the population...)

We added the diffuser (finally) this spring and that's when we started having more suspended clay problems. The pond is about 12' deep at its center and has steep sides. We'll see how this all sorts out when we start up the diffuser again in a couple of day. Gotta say though that the alum is having the desired effect!

Johnny:

Largemouth Bass (LMB), Northern Pike (NP, or Chain Pickerel (CP) would all help with controlling the koi. One NP might be enough. What species of fish you use will all depend on your goals for the pond.

Regarding your aerator, make sure that the diffuser isn't placed directly on the bottom. If it is, it might be contributing to the suspended sediment in the water. Raise it up a foot or so from the bottom, or put something under it. I've seen 24" to 36" square 1/4" thick plastic used with a single diffuser was attached to the center of it.

i have more topsoil then i know what to do with
if i had it spred out over the whole pond befor it fills would it stop the clay problem or atleast lessen it ?

Yes...it can...Make sure it is well compacted. Your best solution will be to plant grasses in all that topsoil before the pond fills to prevent erosion to start with....even in the pool area.

The grass, once submerged will become excellent areas for your fish to eat, hide and thrive along with supercharging you new pond's ecosystem in a very beneficial way.

ok i added about a tenth of a teaspoon of alum to my quart jar of pond water and it cleared it based on erics chart I need to add between 1800 and 3000 pounds of alum to the pond. I there a place to buy in bulk in the dallas area that is less expensive than ordering it at the feed store by the bag? What should a bag cost?

Here is the contraption I made in order to put out the alum.the first barrel had the two inch water line coming in at the bottom this is the barrel we put the alum into and mixed it with an oar. we also mixed the second barrel with an oar. the water then flowed out of the second barrel at the top through three one and a quarter inch pipes into the pond.

the day I put the alum out it was very windy and so the only areas that were starting to clear were along the north shoreline out of the wind. Out in the middle i could tell the alum was binding the clay and making visible clumps and starting to clear but I had to leave before I got to see the final results. Hopefully it worked and when I go back this weekend it will look better. If its still muddy looking would you add more alum?

Nice set-up. I don't think that purple stain is going to come out anytime soon....... Did I hear a couple of dirty words??

Contraption; yep and a damned ingenious one.

the cat knocked the glue over when I was working but the glue was nothing like trying to remove the hydrated lime from the boat. It sets like concrete.

My goal was to try and not have to move the water only the bags of product.

See what happens and let us know the results. If still muddy then we can talk about the next step. Would be good to have the water tested if no big improvement is seen. At least another jar test to see if the amount needed to clear has come down.

Nice work on the ---? Once you have the water clear what happens to the -----?

Just curious though, because of the toxicity of the alum rate a whole arm length over the coagulant called chitosan, has any one attempted to use chitosan over alum. Base price of alum is probably 1/2 the cost over chitosan after shipping/handling fees. Alum will re-dissolved back into the water as stirring caused by wind or run-on. Chitosan actually retain the bound material until you can safely harvest the sunked chunks. Just something to toss into the mix.

I never saw a drop in my ph during the process but I was only using test strips for a pool to check the ph. I was also constantly adding hydrated lime during the process. I am hoping to go up and take a look at the pond this weekend.
During the process I didnt see any fish floating or for that matter doing anything else. Lately the only fish I have seen with the water being so brown are the ones the cormarants have been eating. I have been watching them through my binoculars. I have only seen them eating shad up to half a pound. i have been a bit nervous about a fish kill after reading some of the posts on the forum.

Pool test strip is good for an overview +/- 1pH unit. Just be mindful of that. A pool test kit will give you a higher accuracy of +/- 0.2pH unit. However, it's good to invest in a more sensitive pH meter, which you have to shell out about $400. However, the pH meter will provide an accurate data that aid you in the long run if you're introducing alum, chitosan, or any acidic/alkaline agent into the water. In our work, we don't use the "Dilution is the solution" method. Rather, natural buffering, settling, and filtration is the solution. If you need more info in that area, let me know. I can provide you some insights into the natural approach, rather than chemically induced and counter balance.

Not too concerned over ph/alkalinity drop as you have that covered. Jar test to see how much more alum it may take to clear the water is what I was referring to. The amount should have dropped a good bit if any more is needed. Test strips would have indicated a problem if it existed.

Curious Shorty. Is there a buffer zone to create a filtering strip using native vegetation as a natural bio-swale between the gully and the pond? The gully can be turned into a settling/retention area, before introducing filtered water to the pond. A win-win situation if there is that buffer zone.

It worked great the water has cleared to about three feet from only one inch before with no fish kill. Thanks for all the help people have given me from the forum. I now have a new problem the cormorants have tripled in numbers

Ah..the wonderful aerial predators saw the swimmers below. Hunting season time? Automatic air sounding devices (used quite often by DFG and habitat conservation agencies) are utilized to scare away birds. You may want to check it out? The device can use either propane or any compressed air. You can actually fashion one out yourself.

Those birds can see shad from miles away. New problem - new approach

#8's are a little small, even for Tungsten. If shooting Tungsten, I'd opt for #6's. But, at $2/shot I prefer lead if possible. For flying birds where non-toxic shot is required, we've had good results with Kent Fasteel. 3" shells at 1550 fps, 3 1/2" shells at 1625 fps. 4's, 2's or 1's work well for cormorant sized birds, for geese we jump up to BB's.

That picture of the duck in the pattern is misleading. #8's are much smaller than the birds eye, less than half the mallard's eye in size. A #8 pellet is .080" in diameter.

8's at distance don't kill the water turkeys - no lead no poison . --

I had three large bass on the shore today being eaten by hawks and vultures two weeks after adding alum possible causes? Not enough to call it a fish kill but all fish over five pounds

Possible total suspended solids bounded by the Alum caught in the larger fish's gills, creating poor oxygen absorption since it's still malleable and sticky, which in turn cause the fish to belly up.

no more dead fish today and the fish were feeding very well at the feeders. Caught some really nice bass and hybrids today and feel like the clear water has improved the feeding and catching of the fish. I would highly recommend adding alum to your pond if it is muddy.

Be sure to keep an eye on the forage. With WT having just left and the sight feeders (LMB and HSB) going wild you may need some more CNBG and or shad. Predators should really pack on the weight this year.

I saw no bluegill at the feeder and the cormorants are putting an extra hurt on the shad
I agree i need more forage just an excuse to go fish shopping

I can't see how this theory could hold as the "floc" is only VERY lightly, magnetically held together and is no "stickier" in clumps than it as was free floating particles and the "clumps" are easily broken apart back into the individual particles. If the suspended solids caused no oxygen problems before it flocked, I don't believe it could after since there is no chemistry change.

The most likely cause was something ewest mentioned...forage! The large bass likely gorged themselves and choked to death due to being able to now see more forage than they could handle. I have this happen now and then when I put feeder fish in my aquarium. The latest victim being a 12" SMB that tried to swallow 7 goldfish at once, and failed. The goldfish got stuck and she was unable to move water across her gills.

I appreciate all the information that everyone has contributed here.

I'm about to attempt to clear up my 2 ponds, 1/2 acre each and separated by a narrow dirt road (now mostly grass). See pictures.

Last summer the ponds were fairly clear until late summer & early fall when they became filled with algae, to the point where blobs were floating around and visibility was maybe a couple inches. The algae disappeared over the winter (and I've added 6 grass carp to each pond about a month ago). But while the algae may have disappeared, the ponds have become muddy. We have had a fair bit of rain this year and the ponds fill with runoff from the nearby hills. Vegetation covers all the hills. I've done some digging with a backhoe around the ponds last fall removing some willow trees and building a small boat slip. I also put aerators in each pond, driven by a windmill. It seems that once I did all that work around the ponds is when it became muddy, but it's staying that way.

I drew out a gallon of pond water and let it sit for 2 days. It remains muddy with no accumulation of sediment. So I'm thinking that alum is the answer, but I would appreciate some help with that. I hope to spread the stuff from the shore line, spraying the slurry out into the ponds with a pump, a garden hose and a nozzle. I should be able to reach about 20 feet into the ponds from the banks. Is that sufficient? Also, if you'll look at the pictures, could someone venture a guess at how many acre-feet, or whatever, that I have?

And finally ... I read that one could buy alum at the grocery store so I got some. $4.54 per OUNCE!!??? And, I tried mixing 1 teaspoon in about 1/4 cup of water before I added that to my 1 gallon pond sample, but it's nothing like a slurry at all. It's clear. The alum looks like salt to me, and I thought it was a fine powder. What am I doing wrong here?

Appreciate all the help I can get.

(I hope the pictures appear in the order in which I've listed them here.)
1. Last summer's clear water.
2. Last summer's clear water #2.
3. Murky water now.
4. Jug of murky water.
5. Did digging the boat slip do it? (And digging up 30 willow trees.)
6. Pond depth measurements.

Wingsy, just a hunch but your muddy water may be from a combination of recent rains, the grass carp you stocked, your new aeration systems, and the digging you did along the pond.

Looking at your jug picture your water clarity is not really that bad, you can still see the label on the other side of the jug. My guess is that if you give it time it will clear up all on it's own by fall. One of my friends got some BIG rain last year that washed out his small pond and muddied it up very badly, he had a river 30 yards wide going over his dam. He asked me a lot of questions about alum and how to treat it afterwards. He never did treat his pond but after 5 months it did clear up on it's own.

Alum is used primarily by water treatment plants and can be purchased in 50 lb. bags very reasonably, finding a place to buy it is the chore. When I did my pond I talked with a chemical specialist at one of our local Ag Co-ops and they were able to order it in for me but the first few people I talked with didn't have a clue what I was looking for.

Thanks Shorty. Yes, I do believe that I'm responsible for making the water murky, but my concern is that it's staying murky. Once I caused all that clay and dirt to get into the water won't it just stay in suspension until I do something, like adding alum? The test jug sat for 2 days and not one bit settled out. I added 1 teaspoon of alum to the jug yesterday, and now look at it. I could (almost) drink it!

And I'm not having any luck at all in finding powdered alum. Still looking.

Look at that 2nd picture where the suspended solids are raining down from inside the jug. Looks spooky.

Here is a 2008 thread on sourcing aluminum sulfate.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139641

Reviving this thread, because to me it's the most complete Alum thread.

Before doing the Alum deal on Highfyler's brood pond, we tested the Alum on a small 1/5 acre cow tank I had. It was used first for 2 reasons:
1) To get the procedure right.
2) Nothing in it to kill, so no consequences if done incorrectly.

After a week, the water had cleared, and a tremendous algae bloom had started. There were small floating patches of FA, but generally the tank responded as expected. The FA has since stopped.

What's interesting to me, was the continued usage by 30 cows and the consequences of re-stiring the mud on the bank. Although the banks were extremely muddy, they continue to resettle after a few days.

Now, a month later, the water continues to stay clear after muddying, and GSF are clearly visible and active.

My CNBG brood pond was to be treated with Alum also, but the need for Alum was negated by adding lot's of new water. It has cleared nicely on it's own, so no Alum will be used.

So my question is, is this normal for Alum to re-clear water if stirred up? I've never heard this addressed.

My dog muddys up my pond every night frog hunting and it clears up on it's own. I also had few gully washers back in May that brought the water clarity down to 3" and it cleared up on it's own. I think getting a bloom going helps clear the water in a positive feedback loop.

I treated a pond 10 days ago with Phosclear. Application was 0.25#/1,000 gallons of water. Before applying, visibility was 10" due to clay turbidity. After application, 2 days later I swung by the pond to check because the owner said it was a little bit clearer. Visibility was 36". It was impossible to find alum here without ordering it by the ton, so I went with what I could get. I spread it out dry, tossing the granules out over the pond with the wind (per directions). pH was 8.6 to start, 7.9 upon completion, and 2 days later it was 8.1.

More expensive than alum for sure, but it did the trick!

Wow! I'm sure glad this thread got resurrected.

The third-acre pond I built last year has never cleared. I have about 6 inches of visibility due to suspended clay.

Part of the problem may be the constant "weeping" along the steep backside that was cut into the hillside. It stays wet almost year around and is shaded much of the day. I'm having a real hard time getting any vegetation established. Crown vetch is very slowly getting a foothold. I don't know if it is the major source of clay, or a very minor source.

Significant mud, like a real dense dust cloud, gets stirred up if a fish grabs a pellet in a shallow area. Visibility goes to zero in the cloud.

I was hoping it would clear on its own. It feeds several settlement ponds on its way to my main pond. The lower ponds have almost no suspended clay, except after a heavy rain when the muddy pond has lots of outflow.

Is it worth putting in alum or Phosclear if the clay is coming from the weeping side. The main source of runoff water is very clear where it enters the pond.

Ken that's exactly what I thought. To good a thread to die. I had bookmarked it, and referred to it repeatedly before I considered Alum. Rex and all the other posters did good.

Although I chose not to Alum the primary pond I had originally considered, I have another one that could really benefit from it down the road. It's a cow tank also, just a lot bigger. It stays muddy, and if the Alum does to it what it did to this tank, then that's a home run.

Moderators, Can we make this a "sticky" thread since it is referenced so frequently???

Thanks Rainman for reviving this thread. It took me several days to read and try and absorb this info.
I am filling a 1 acre pond that will be 20-25 ft deep.
I just received a good storm that added 2 ft to an existing 4 ft, so now I'm estimating 6-7ft of depth. I have FHM in already but my visibility is maybe 1-2 inches. My kids want to swim in it on Labor day.
If I do an Alum treatment, am I wasting my money?
Does it have any residual effects? I feel like I am getting mixed messages on that one.
Can I just wing it and spray it out with lime according to recommended calcs or do I need to do the jar test?
Patience is not my strong suit, but this pond thing requires almost as much as my kids!

Capt, only you can decide if the money is wasted or not. I strongly suggest adding the hydrated lime with the alum for 2 reasons here.

First, your kids want to swim and the alum alone will make the water very acidic. Not dangerously acidic, but enough that it will make their eyes burn when the water gets in them.

Second, the only thing that can cause "residual" issues is a pH below 5.4 that will allow the aluminum to dissolve into the water and be absorbed by swimmers/fish...but that is so acidic the kids won't want to swim in the pond!

If you have a lot of open, exposed clay, adding alum may only last till the next rain event.

Rainman, I will be adding the lime along with it. I am having trouble finding Alum here in AZ. Any good contacts?
As far as residual affects, will the alum help settle the clay after the kids go and play in it for the weekend.
Any Idea on what I should expect to pay for Alum by the pound?
Does it work to spray in 100 lbs., wait for results and repeat? or am I better off doing calculations and spraying all in on one application?

Look at some large chemical suppliers in some of the AZ Metro areas or contact Kelly Duffie here on PB.

There will be rapid re-settling of clay until the water becomes too diluted or more clay enters the water, as a "residual effect".

Yes, spray what is called for to clear the pond entirely the first time.

Is $.62 a lb a good price for Alum?

I'd say that is a decent price. Think I paid $0.45-.50/lb a few years ago.

Great info.

Wow. amazing pond, beautiful fish too. It's got me inspired to finish building a pond down by our creek. I've got a depression dug in sand and gravel to the grade of the water, I'm thinking of going down another six feet letting the water flow underground. So much to learn

Alright, the equations have confused my tired brain, so please let me know about how much alum and aluminum sulfate should be added in a one acre lake with average depth of about5 feet?

Apparently x amounts of alum and 1/2x of aluminum sulfate is added to xx gallons of water making slurry and sprayed on the surface???

I have a 20 gallon sprayer and can dispense from my pontoon boat.

I am ready to use. Please advise..

You will need a much larger sprayer. When Rainman and I treated a clients pond last year we used a 275 gallon tote that had water continually pumped into and out of it. We first sprayed the hydrated lime into the pond, then the aluminum sulfate. It took us about 4-5 hours to treat the whole 7/8 acre pond using that method. He stayed on the bank mixing and pumping, I was in a boat with the hose spraying the pond. It was non-stop the whole time.

Bill, Alum is Aluminum Sulfate....and Calcium Hydroxide is Hydrated Lime (do NOT confuse Hydrated Lime with "Ag Lime" (Calcium Carbonate, Calcite, Dolomite).

For every 100 pounds of Alum needed, use 50 pounds of Hydrated Lime.

I would suggest 1000 pounds of Alum (Aluminum Sulfate) and 500 pounds of Hydrated Lime (Calcium Hydroxide)

As for mixing, hydrated lime can be slowly poured, dry, into the prop wash, if using a motor on the boat, or about 3 pounds Hydrated Lime per gallon of water,

BEWARE wet, Hydrated Lime is highly caustic and will dissolve skin, especially in small cuts and scrapes!!!

Aluminum Sulfate will become a slurry and needs to be mixed at about a 1 pound per gallon mixture.

Given the long length of time it will take (12-15 hours) to apply the mixtures, I would strongly suggest spraying 100# of Alum, followed by 50# of Hydrated Lime, alternating back and forth....Do NOT mix the Hydrated Lime and Alum at the same time in the tank, or it quickly turns to a paste!!

I haven't thought about aluminum sulfate in over 30 years. I remember them using it down at the water plant. They used AS and something called soda ash

Farm, Soda ash is also known as washing soda (Sodium Carbonate) which is a close relative of baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate). If you have been around long enough, you might remember using washing soda as a water softener for washing clothes. I don't know if it would have a place in pond maintenance, but it could be used to raise the PH levels.

If there are no fish in the pond, do you need the hydrated lime or can you just apply the Alum and wait for the PH to come back up and stabilize before stocking? Another question, if you have extremely high alkalinity already, is that enough to buffer the Alum without much PH change?

Keep in mind that the more alum that is applied per acre foot of water the more the need for buffering of lime or natural lime carbonates. I have applied alum in ponds with fish and Higher alkalinity and hardness (100-250ppm, mg/L) and found it will buffer most suggested applications of alum (100-400lbs/ac) without the need for lime addition. Below 90mg/L alkalinity, I suggest you monitor the pH when adding alum.

As already noted: after - during alum application, there is a chemical reaction that impacts the pH (acidity) of the water. The reaction produces small amounts of sulfuric acid which can decrease pH significantly in some lower alkalinity buffered waters to levels harmful to aquatic life. You can treat with a suggested or minimal amount of alum and wait a day or two to determine if more alum is needed to achieve water clarity 18"-2ft.
Therefore, alkalinity and pH should be tested prior to application. Alkalinity should exceed 100 mg/l and pH should be greater than 7.0.

If there are no fish, Hydrated lime is less expensive, adds calcium, and will sterilize and turn the pond gin clear. It will make the pH go sky high at first, but it returns to safe levels, or normal in a couple weeks.

I wouldn't want to suggest trying to "reduce" turbidity if caused by colloidal clay. Alum doesn't dissolve into water unless the pH is 5.4 or lower, and that pH is not good. Above 5.4, Alum sinks to the bottom, and adding more will need to be at a higher application rate than the original application...it isn't a cumulative effect. i.e. If a 1000# rate is required to completely flocculate the colloidal clay, but only 600# is applied on day one... You will likely need 1000# still on day 2's application, for a total of 1600# instead of the original 1000 that would have been needed.

Be sure to ensure you have high quality, guaranteed analysis Hydrated Lime, applied at 40-50% of what alum is applied or you may do what just happened to me...Smoke a pond from a pH drop and be replacing a pond full of fish...

Many municipalities still use dry Aluminum Sulfate and Soda ash to clarify municipal water supplies....The basic soda ash helps offset the acidic effect of Alum on the water.

This forum is terrific! I have a 4 to 5 year old pond we had built that has never been anything but muddy brown. I did an Alum test last night and the difference was amazing. Now I am trying to find a source to purchase bulk Alum and Hydrated Lime. I called the local CoOp but they didn't carry either. Can anybody help me track down a source in the central Iowa area (near Des Moines)?

Any help is greatly appreciated!

If you drop into a pool supply place and ask where they get their bulk chemical they may be able to hook you up with product or even the supplier.

I do think even if you do everything correct you need to watch the EC of the pond water. If high to begin with then adding alum and hydrated lime the EC could go much higher than the fish or life can handle. If I remember correct and EC of 16 is ok but get to 24 and things die.

EC is electrical conductivity of water. It measures dissolved salts.

Talk to your local Helena Chemical dealer. If you can't find one, PM me and I can find a phone number for you to call if you tell me the nearest large town to you.

Scott, unfortunately, not many Helena outlets carry Alum. Our Buddy Kelly does in the Helena outlets he deals with, but my local Helena won't even order it, and it is manufactured only 15 miles away.

Iowa Pond, message me back and I can have it delivered to your door, depending on water volume, or you or pick up in Des Moines.

Rex, I was thinking of the possibility of having Kelly have it delivered to his local Helena distributor.

Is it OK to use liquid form an how much should I use per acre

I just got done using the liquid form and my water is probably 75% better.

Last year we had a drought and a steep part of my watershed area got burnt and the grass died. This winter/ fall we had a lot of rain and a few gully washers. This proceeded to erode ground and empty a lot of the orange clay into the pond. The 3/4 acre pond turned a muddy brown color that I just couldn't live with anymore. Clarity was at around 6" at best, and I feared the fish could not hunt.

After reading about alum on here I contacted my pond guy and all he uses is liquid. He reccomended I use 16 gallons. I set up the boat with an electric trolling motor and slowly poured the liquid into the prop wash. I'd then go back at the same pass with powdered lime and do the same dumping it in the prop wash.

The first treatment did about a 20% clearing so I went back and did it again and it's about 75% and getting better every hour. I paid $8 a gallon for the liquid aluminum sulfate. I killed one LMB but no other fish seem to have been affected.

I live in central Illinois, Champaign. Does anyone know where I can buy Alum?

Check the local FS dealer. I believe there is one in Urbana.

Alum sulfate has increased significantly since this article was written...any ideas of where to shop, I'm finding the 4 lb bags from $7to $12 per bag. I just applied 10 bags and no success...

I will be adding alum/lime next week at 82 alum and 40 lime. I have had low visibility of 10 or 11 inches over the past 5 months which started with a dense algae bloom back around the first of Oct. I have done a jar test and it takes 6 to 7 days to clear. The water seems to be cloudy from some plankton and some clays. If I use some of Rainmans numbers @ 200 lbs per acre foot, it comes out to 81 sks of alum for the treatment. I am running another test right now using a 5 gal bucket of pond water where I added a qtr teaspoon of the crystalline alum and will ck the outcome today and will make adjustments if needed. The calculations were based on a pond that google measures as 3.12 acres with 6.5 average depth. And I came up with 20.25 acre foot. Any one see something I am not seeing here?

I got lucky when searching for alum and found 40 sks for free from a local water treatment plant. I just had to go by and pick it up. They converted to liquid and had 40 sks they wanted to get rid of, so they gave it to me. The cost for the additional pallet or 42 sks is $.64 per pound or $32.00 per 50# sk. I will be adding some fish to the pond soon and so I thought if I was going to use the alum, it would be better to use it before I add any more fish. Thoughts?

Sweet deal on the free sacks! Did you cold call the manager or purchasing agent?

My only thought is if it clears in 6 days - perhaps the main issue is mechanical disturbance of the clay?

It was a sweet deal forsure. When I was looking for supplier for cost comparisons is when I found the water treatment plant that had converted to liquid and wanted to get rid of the sk material they had on hand. And as far as what has kept my water cloudy, Bill Cody described it as detritus. Dead stuff stirred off the bottom of the pond. I don't have an answer why or how and have looked for the answer but have not come up with how, when or what caused it to go from a nice 18 to 21" of nice olive green water(for 3 yrs) to what it is today at 10 to 12" of cloudy water. It is possible that high numbers of crawfish are there and with low visibility they could be thriving because the lmb can't see them to eat them or it could be the diffusers but they have not been turned on since Dec. We have received good rain events the past 30 days and it has been windy and I think that is contributing to all this now but prior to that, I could do a jar test and the water would not clear at all. And that is why I am trying the alum, out of frustration for the most part.

That is a pretty decent retail price on the alum also! If your water volume estimate is right, and you disolve the alum well before spraying, it should clear well in a few hours and max clarity will be achieved overnight.

I have decided that I would rather have somewhat muddy water. Last year my #1 pond had 4-5 foot visibility late summer, and the FA was horrible. The forage pond had 6 inch visibility and no FA. To me, the muddy water is better than FA. Guess I need Koi or something to muddy up my #1 pond.

Rainman, the past two days we have had some good rain at the pond, about 3". And I ran a test with the water using Alum with a five gallon bucket, I added 1/2 tsp. I think that is 3 grams, if my scales are accurate, and the water cleared pretty good in a short time but when I added 3/4 of a tsp it went to clear water in a couple of minutes. So if you were to see that, how or what way would you go, lighter or stronger concentration? My pH went from an 8 to a 6.5, so would you stay with the two alum to one hydrated lime when adding the treatment? And to double ck on my volume, 6.5' average depth with 3.12 acre, would that be 20.25 acre foot'? With the pond a full right now, if the average depth is 7' instead of 6.5' how much difference would that make when treating the pond?

Had anyone tried broadcasting the alum by hand? My water is generally clear except when someone or a dog goes swimming. That's stirrs up the water pretty bad. My water settles on its own, just takes an hour. Could I simply throw the alum by hand into the areas where people swim? It's not going to do anything on its way down as there is nothing for it to floc until it gets stirred up.

Thanks

Alum is heavier than water and will sink...it will sink even faster, while providing almost no benefit if broadcast dry.

Alum will help the stirred up mud settle out faster, but only until the alum is washed into deeper areas that won't get agitated.

If fish are present, and depending on the grade slope, the alum get pushed to deeper water pretty quickly (days)

What do you recommend for a pond that only has a problem when someone goes swimming? I imagine treating the whole pond won't help since the deeper water doesn't get stirred up?

I don't need the alum to treat the whole water column and settle anything on its way down to the bottom. I just need to treat the mud on the bottom which is why I thought dry broadcasting might work, but I don't want to waste money on something that won't help.

I have 5'+ visibility now (no algae bloom yet) so I don't have an everyday muddy issue like some have. Would lime or gypsum be better?

It would probably be better if you put something down to cover the mud in the swimming area, like coarse sand or pea gravel over a layer of landscape cloth to hold the sand/gravel out of the mud.

Treating the area by dry broadcasting will not hurt anything...I just don't know how long it may help. Ag Lime and or gypsum add minerals to the water and won't help with what you hope to gain.

If you have several kids and critters feet sloshing around in mud and clay, there really is no way to avoid muddying the water.

Hello all! Longtime lurker, first time poster.

I have a small pond with lots of suspended clay. I dug it out about 8 months ago, so there is little life in it.

My pond is probably about 200 feet long with an average width of 50 feet and an average depth of probably 8 feet.

I am planning on treating the pond with alum. Preliminary results from mixing a teaspoon in a 2 gallon bucket have been very promising.

My questions are:

1.) When I apply alum, is it ok to use only the slurry mixture and spread it evenly across the surface of the pond evenly (with greater time spent on deeper sections)? I work at a refinery and treat water as part of my job, and typically we use mechanical agitation to mix our coagulants and flocculants with the target water well enough to clump up the suspended solids. I don't really have a lot of great methods of agitating the water in the pond; but I've read this is not necessary.

2.)What is preferable: mixing the slurry with clean fresh water from my municipality or pond water? I would think the clean water would create a better "neat" chemical mixture.

3.)Where can I get aluminum sulfate and hydrated lime at in southwest Louisiana for a fair price? I bought a 50lb test bag of alum through a Walmart vendor for around $38 plus $27 shipping. I havn't looked for hydrated lime yet.

Twar,
talk to member TJ about soilfloc. It works great for leaks, but in your case, it also will 'firm' up the bottom by locking the sediments into the polymer and pulling it down into any pores in the bottom. Where I have put soilfloc in the shallows you can hardly push a stick into the sand as it is so rock hard and when you walk on it you get very little puffing of sediment from the bottom despite a sandy bottom that used to do this.

A single unit or even a half a unit as a test dose in the shallows might achieve what you are looking for.

No personal experience with alum but want to say welcome to PB.

Thanks! Look forward to giving this a try. If I don't get any responses soon I think I'll just go out there and give it the old college try lol

I do not have trouble with visibility...my water is very clear. I'm wanting to tie up phosphorus to help with my FA problem. If I were after that how much alum would I be looking at needing? Similar to pond clearing...or more/less? I can get alum down the road from a poultry litter treatment place for $15/bag.

Thanks

Peach...about 100 pounds per acre foot of water will bind the dissolved P....how much does that $15 bag weigh?

50# from what I could tell. That may be the friend discount. I was helping his son with his welding and asked. The have a poultry litter treatment service. I saw the pallet today so I asked. Would I still do the hydrated lime at 50# per acre foot?

I also read that once the alum binds the phosphorus, it could get stired back up from the bottom? Is this true or is reintroduction from outside the bow the only way?

A question about alum, anybody use the granular form? Thats all i was able to buy.....need alot more. If so, does it dissolve very quickly in water to form the slurry or is it a chore? Thinking 55 gallon bucket and trolling motor method to mix it.

I used a trolling motor inside a tote and that mixed up pretty well. I used some granular and some powered. Using the trolling motor, it seemed to mix up about the same.

I would like to try the alum process on my pond. I am curious:

1) Does anyone know of a source fo alum (and lime) in the NW Ohio area?

2) Is there a standard dosage chart? Going through the thread it seems there's lots of variations.

My pond is .2 acre, average depth of 6' so I calculate this at approx 1.2 acre/feet. Also our pond has bottom aeration and is our source of fun and drinking water so I want to be sure it's safe to use alum. It seems that it is a natural way of clarification from what I have read.

Thanks in advanced!

Try a farm co-op and get AlSO4 aluminum sulfate (Iron content does NOT matter)...400 pounds of alum and 200 pounds of Hydrated Lime (Calcium Hydroxide) will make sure it clears. Almost every "city water" treatment plant has used alum at one time or another to clear drinking water...it's safe.

Turn off your aeration while treating and leave it off overnight after treating...apply the alum slurry first, followed by the hydrated lime application...

A post by mglanham showing some results.

Here is an update on my pond progress. On Sunday, I mixed 700lbs of Alum in trash cans with a trolling motor. I threw half of it from shore and the other half from a boat. I also did the hydrated lime. I only treated one half of the pond, but there was a good wind which I believe carried the Alum to the other side of the pond. When I was finished I noticed absolutely no difference.......I left thinking I hadn't applied enough.

I returned three days later to check on things and the second picture shows you what I saw.

what an amazing transformation!

With a one year old Black Lab that makes several trips a day in our small (clay soil) pond is there any chance Alum will help our pond stay clearer? I guess what I'm asking is, does Alum have a lasting affect or does it work once and when the water gets stirred up again it's done. Thanks!

Thanks for all the help guys!

3X8, Alum binds to the ionically negative (colloidal) clay. In almost all cases, the alum, while still in the stirred up clay by the dog, will make the clay settle back out very quickly.

Eventually, the dog and fish will slowly make all the alum migrate deeper into the softer silts and to the deepest portions of the pond that rarely get disturbed.

So, to answer your question, yes, it will help, but it depends on just how much and how long.

If your pond clears on it's own already, I would just broadcast Alum granules into waters 3 feet deep and shallower. I wouldn't worry about creating a slurry first.

Thank you Rainman!

I'm trying to clear my pond up here in East Texas with Gypsum. My local ag office suggested this route instead of aluminum sulfate due to PH problems we already battle here in the piney woods. I got four pitchers of pond water and then mixed two tbsp of gypsum in one of the pitchers with tap water. I then added increasing doses to each of the samples. one tbsp in the first, two in the second and three in the third. waited overnight and there was no change. so I started over and added four to the first one, six to the second and eight to the third. the one with eight tbsp of gypsum slurry mix seemed to clear slightly overnight. I figured my pond to be 1.65 acre feet of water, or about .30 surface acres. based on the recommendations of my ag office, I need 1200 lbs of gypsum? does that sound right? I'm going to try the aluminum sulfate test the same way, but it is about $40 for 50lbs and the gypsum was $10 for 50 lbs. My PH level is between 6-7, how bad will the aluminum hurt it? Anyone ever use liquid aluminum sulfate? I'm reading that if I follow it up with lime, I shouldn't have too much of a ph problem, but im not trying to spend $750 either! No fish in the water as of yet, its a new pond with lots of clay turbidity. our whole property is clay pretty much. any advice?

Use 50% HYDRATED Lime per pound of Alum, and your pH will rise slightly when done.

Go to your local grocery store that sells McCormack seasonings and buy a small container of Alum (used in canning to keep things crisp).

It will take about 400-500 pounds of Alum and I'd suggest 300 pounds of Hydrated lime and the ending result will be a slight increase in pH.....do NOT use AG lime in place of Hydrated lime!!!!!

After the pond is clear, if you can, get about 5 tons per acre of pond and watershed spread with AG lime for long term (years) calcium and increased pH

You will need tons of gypsum.....way less cost with alum....never add alum alone!! Read the Clay kicks Clay Butt threads in the muddy water section you created this thread in.....it explains the proper ways to apply Alum and Hydrated lime....done wrong, or under dosed, it will not work!

This seems to be a pretty hot topic, and a very good read. I must ask though, as I research Alum for pond use, most of what I find is mixed with a buffering agent, in most cases this appears to be sodium carbonate (soda ash) at around 20% of the total volume. I happen to have about 400lbs of sodium carbonate left (that I sealed my pond with) so I'm wondering about obtaining the alum and mix myself. Lime has always been a no-no in my location due to our soil make up so I'm guessing I'd be better off using the soda ash..?? I have been asking around about Alum and I haven't found a source anywhere close. I assumed being in the middle of mainly Ag country I'd be able to obtain enough to do my 2.5 ac ft pond. Going to need to find a source of Alum first I guess.
Any thoughts on the sodium carbonate?? I didn't see that mentioned by anyone as a buffer for Ph control..

I used the alum/lime last spring and it worked to clear up my water to around 36" from 9 to 12" of green water and detritus by reducing/tying up the phosphorous . My calcium ppm is low in my pond and if you use soda ash it can reduce the calcium/hardness in your water.

I found out today that my Local Helena retailer has it right here. The Alum sulfate that is.. Got lucky I guess. I'm still wondering about using the sodium carbonate in place of lime though..Our soil type here is such that acid has to be added for many chemical applications and a couple of our local chemical reps say don't use lime here, I'll be sorry if I do, so I need to research that a bit more.

Where is your PH now? And from my experience I would stay with Rainmans recommendations. When I treated my pond (3+ acres) with 2 to 1 ratio the pH did not change much at all. The alum is an acid and will drop the pH, the lime will keep it around the 7 range if it is mixed and added correctly. Hay, I am no expert but passing along my experience.

I'm in the 7.4-7.6 range depending on time of day.
I guess I still need to do more research. The chemical applicators and farmers here don't use lime in the NW (very NW) corner of Kansas, go in the other direction normally. I can't even find lime within 200 miles of here. Locals keep telling me no on Lime and use soda ash.. I need to find out why Lime in particular, is recommended over Sodium Carb.. is it based on water PH only?? What I find in research shows in becomes active with the bottom compounds as well. Don't know how credible it is but KU study shows a graph that says PH above 7.2, Not to add any Lime. Apparently I'm just not finding the right data to tell me why 1 over the other. Not trying to be difficult here, I just need to understand.

I suspect locals are talking of not liming a pond due to higher pH soils. But I would suspect that's not the case when one adds an acid to the water. You could run a pilot test. Take pond water sample, like 5 gals, add the alum ck pH before and after. Add lime and or soda ash and check for pH increase. Another thing is when adding lime your water hardness and or calcium should come up. Soda ash will lower water hardness/calcium. Fish need the water to have some water hardness/calcium but I don't recall what the water hardness/calcium ppm needs to be, but maybe someone else will jump in here.

TGW1, I think I will try some sampling before I boff the whole deal. :-)) And I think you're right on the high pH soils..In my case after completing the seal, I piled a 8-12" layer of this soil on top.

Where can i get alum in bulk near denton texas or the dallas metroplex

Snipe, first off, if the "locals" are talking about using HYDRATED lime (Calcium Hydroxide), they are talking about adding it to soils, and yes, you'd be sorry you did...it would burn plants and kill them....HYDRATED lime is used with Alum to offset the acid created from Alum, NOT as any form of soil amendment!

Ag Lime and Hydrated lime are not remotely similar.

DOLOMITE AG lime is simply finely crushed limestone and is used in ponds for a few reasons. It adds the essential salts of Calcium and Magnesium for fish bone and scale growth. It stabilizes and reduces pH swings. it adds hardness, it can not raise pH above a very safe 8.2. It promotes nutrient uptake by O2 producing plants and helps create beneficial algae blooms...all these things reduce stress on fish while increasing growth rates and potentials. If you decide to apply alum yourself, USE Hydrated lime, regardless of your water/soil pH!!! A relatively rapid change in pH, up or down, will badly stress and potentially kill all your fish.Adding AG lime to soil or water will NEVER hurt or make you "sorry"...it just may not be needed in some areas, but it is NOT just for raising pH in a pond...(that's just an added benefit).

Ag lime is also readily available around KC and St Joe...I'm sure several co-ops around you have or can get Ag Lime, but again, Ag lime is NOT what is used with Alum! I know every Walmart or big box home store has all the pelletized Dolomite ag lime you'd ever want or need. Home Depot has, or can order Type S Hydrated Lime (lowest prices too), which is used for concrete...almost any concrete plant has countless tons of it on hand too.

FWIW, a pH of 7.4 is what fish blood runs....water of the same pH is the least stressful on fish and reduces the salt loss from gills and kidneys. A higher pH is better than a lower pH. A hardness and alkalinity (due to calcium and magnesium) over 20 but kept around 150ppm, is optimal.

I wonder who is telling you not to add lime to a pond....is their experience based on growing plants, or fish? There are myriad myths and ideas on what is needed for a pond. In my experiences, areas primarily used for farming and livestock could not care less about a pond used for primarily growing fish...the ponds in these areas are primarily just a water source, for irrigation and drinking by livestock....fish are just an afterthought for a lazy day.

Rainman, I do believe there is some misunderstanding on my end just because of the questions I've ask around Locally, about. My fisheries Biologist is concerned about the interaction of the bottom soil type with the Hydrated Lime-he's my source, and says I may be sorry because of our super high pH soil here, that I put in on top of my seal. He has no exposure to the Alum w/Hydrated Lime in small ponds in this part of Reg 1 in KS because we have no clay particulates in soil here. With that said, sounds like the info I'm getting-whether correct or not-is based on suspended clay particulates only and no other compounds.
After asking around, again, just locally, people here are familiar with Ag lime, but not Hydrated lime. My Agronomist says we don't use Ag lime because it's totally unnecessary for AG use and normally, an acid solution is used here to lower the pH for better growing conditions. I understand this is not in the water use situation WE are discussing now, and that may be some of the information I'm confusing here. In a few of the items I've found for use in pond clarification products in the Alum category, I've found 2 commercially packed products with the main makeup being Alum and both use Sodium Carbonate as the buffering agent to keep pH in check. Both products advertise no pH change if applied correctly, and both come premixed in powder form with 1 being 20% sodium Carb and the other just says 15-40% buffering agent-which is sodium Carb. The item I DO find interesting is both products are mixed directly with water right out of the container and then applied...It's my understanding this is not the recommendation when using Hydrated lime as it becomes a paste?? So, with that being said, is the only difference the fact you can mix sodium carb with Alum together for a 1-time app vs 2 apps or is there some data available that states 1 is better than the other for a given application area/scenario?? I'm not finding the answer to why to use 1 vs the other, yet the commercially available items I find use sodium Carbonate.
And again, not trying to be difficult, I'm trying to get educated on why 1 chemical make up is better than the other. I guess I need to hear the explanation of why I CANNOT use the sodium Carb and should ONLY use Hydrated lime.
Sorry if I'm a PITA..:-))

Snipe....I don't see why you could not use Sodium Carbonate or bicarbonate with alum....the only purpose of the buffering agent is that it makes the acidic alum, pH neutral. I do know from real world experience, the Alum amount required will be higher if broadcast spreading dry alum, regardless of what the pre-packaged products claims on application rates state. This fact is simply due to how Alum works when falling through the water column. FWIW, Alum with Hydrated Lime is a net +6 ionic charge. There are aluminum polymers in liquid form that do not effect water pH when applied, but the cost is as much as 4 times the dry Alum/H-Lime combo cost, yet the liquid polymers are applied faster, and have as high as a +14 ionic charge. In LARGE bodies of water, the labor cost savings on the application time required could make the liquid more cost effective.

As to why the pre-packaged flocculants use sodium carbonate or bicarbonate over H-Lime is probably due to it not forming a paste or because it is easier to produce the buffered pellets in a factory setting....I have no clue as to why either. What worries me with sodium carbonate or bicarbonate is, at a 20-40% rate by weight, it can not chemically offset the acidic value aluminum sulfate has...buffer %'s, as stated on MSDS labels, would not be a balanced chemical equation and would "theoretically", result in a pH drop. Real world application often defies the theory though, and the pre-packaged products are often used, though at much higher than claimed application rates they state for desired results. Calcium Hydroxide (Hydrated Lime) is FAR more caustic than either of the other buffers. And Hydrated Lime is required at a 42-50% by weight ration to become pH neutral....Chemically, carb and bicarb can not balance the Aluminum Sulfate's pH to neutral.

I guess now I am wondering why you want to apply Alum if you have no colloidal clay issues....are you wanting to bind available phosphorus in the pond?

Rainman, this was a double barreled question that I was looking for an answer for both&#128513;&#128513;.. I can see now that there’s WAY more to this than I had previously thought and in both of my situations it’s going to more more important in one BOW than the other. I will be in touch with you as one of the projects is 135 surface acres and we may need your services to make this work.

Snipe,

Did you answer this question and I just missed it?

Another question, have you had your water tested to determine it's alkalinity? My understanding, and it is limited, is that if the alkalinity is high enough in a BOW, there may be no need to add the hydrated lime as the water can buffer the Alum treatment on its own. Have you tried adding Alum to a water sample to see the impact on its Ph?

Sorry if I'm "muddying the water" with my questions......just trying to learn

We are having 1 of the BOW's samples tested. The "jar" test was done several months back and although it cleared substantially and there is some minor sediment in bottom of container, it appears there is still a greenish tint that remains. My personal pond, the jar test reveals similar results so I added some alum sulfate to my personal sample and it cleared substantially more and looks like tap water.
I'll have more to come on the larger BOW as I'm "helping" but not the man in charge.

No issue here Bill D, I'm trying to learn as well. We have sent samples to a facility to check the exact breakdown on the large body.. I have not yet tested my personal water but may have to do so.
The folks I'm working with on the large BOW have protocol to follow and I'm hoping to involve Rex on this.

Snipe, do another jar test on your pond water, but let it sit undisturbed for at least 5 days in a dark closet. You will likely discover the "green tint" is an algae and it will sink or float after dying in the dark. Alum will coagulate and sink the live algae. An algae bloom in your pond is a very good thing, as it is the base of your entire food chain. Visibility with a secchi disc should be 18-36 inches in a "health" bloom....less visibility could cause issues after several cloudy days by the algae dying off and the decay using up all oxygen and suffocating the fish.

Contact Bill Cody here on the forum...He is an expert on algae and can tell you how to send him a sample for analysis.

To revisit this thread.. I found my answer to why Hyd Lime is a much better choice than sodium carbonate.
#1., Hyd Lime adds the needed calcium and is cheap.
#2., Sodium carbonate has ZERO benefit as far as calcium addition, cost is 4 times as high and takes about 5 times longer as a buffer, pH actually dips some before coming back up to a more stable condition.
So, I guess I wonder now on my personal pond how much I really need to treat it..Or, do I need to treat it at all I guess.
Some ics has came off of the eastern 1/3 of my pond and I am shocked at the clarity. I expected it to be "clearer" but didn't expect to see bottom clearly in 4' of water. I suspect that will change with direct sunlight without ice and of course limited wave action even though the shore is complete riprap now except for an open 8' section my dock slides into and out of pond.
I see a continuous growth of FA that hasn't just disappeared under the ice so with the surrounding farm land and subsequent (low volume) run-off with fertilizers present, I "may" need to treat for Phos, or FA reduction only.
Is there such a recommendation for rates on that, Rex??

I suggest treating the water with cutrine plus first, then come back 2 weeks later with 100 pounds alum per acre foot of volume. If you treat/kill the FA, as it decomposes, Phos. is released, so the alum binds more total dissolved phos...Ask TJ about how this double shot regimen works....

I have a 0.64 acre pond with an average depth of 6.8'. It is about 17' in the deepest spot. The pond is about 35 years old and has been in various states of weediness. I dredged it out three years ago and got most of the muck out, but it probably had about 2' of muck remaining in the deepest areas that I could not reach. I have had no FA this year, but the pond has a milky green color. I am assuming I have a combination of planktonic algae and suspended clay. I have three Vertex diffusers running and am currently raising the diffusers off the bottom because I think they may be contributing to the turbidity. I sprayed 264 pounds of aluminum sulfate in a slurry with pond water over the pond yesterday. The clarity was 12" before treatment and 18" this morning. The ph was 9.4 before spraying and 8.4 this morning. I am concerned about the high ph level as well as the cloudy water. I am considering another alum treatment and/or the addition of Floc-logs. The pond is in eastern Iowa near the Quad Cities. Any ideas about how to deal with the high ph or cloudy water would be appreciated.

9.4 is going to be seriously hard on most fish.. 8.2 is probably as high as one would ever be able to sustain a good fishery.
I would want to find the reason pH is so high to begin with but more Alum would be OK.

9.4 does sound very high.

Can you check your test strips or meter against a known standard? I would hate to see you fighting a problem that was apparently worsened by some inaccuracy in your data.

Snipe and FishinRod- Thanks for the replies. I recalibrated my ph tester and checked it with 7.0 and 4,0 solutions and it was right on with those. The pond water has been at 8.4 the last couple of mornings. The clarity has been staying at about 21" also. I shut off the diffusers just before adding the alum and have left them off since. I believe that the green cloudiness is a planktonic algae bloom and I am considering treating the pond with Cutrine+ and then possibly following up with another alum treatment. i have been reading that the bloom may be adding to the ph level. I also read a comment on this thread where Rainman advised using a Cutrine+ treatment followed by an alum treatment. I used 60 lbs. per acre foot for the first alum treatment and may up it to 100 lbs./ acre foot for the next one, especially if the Cutine+ does not lower the ph. Any further comments or advice?

Also, I talked with the Floc-log people and they will provide a water test and recommendations if I send them a water sample.

The Cutrine+ will knock any planktonic or algal bloom down, as it breaks down, the Phos and Nitrogen will be released allowing the Phos to be locked up by the Alum.
60lbs/ac ft is good for "some" Phos being locked up with a small amount of colloidal clay but I think that's about 100lbs per ac ft short in my experience. I've used this method several times now and I've found 125-150lbs per ac ft is best in most cases, I've used as much as 200lbs per ac ft with no problems..
Have some hydrated lime on hand in case you get a large pH drop,. It adds calcium, has the power to add more negatively charged ions to lock up even more elements and sink it. You don't have to mix the hydrated lime in a slurry either

I checked the ph again this morning and it is back up to 9.0. I have ordered the Cutrine+ and will order some more alum. How long after the Cutrine+ treatment should I apply the alum? Also, do you think that adding 100 lbs./acre ft. would be what is needed since I have recently put in 60 lbs./acre ft. or should I add another 125-150 lbs./acre ft.?

I say 7 days but that depends on decomp rate, 3-5 may be sufficient.
I still feel you need to find the source of high pH, that's just too high for egg production, hatching success and proper gill function.

Also, do you think that adding 100 lbs./acre ft. would be what is needed since I recently added 60 lbs./acre ft. or should I add another 125-150 lbs./ acre ft.? The source of the high ph is a mystery to me. There is no cementious material in or at the edges of the pond that could leach in. The main watershed is a farm field that has a tile running into the pond. Do you think that could be a source of high ph?
There is a new generation of bluegills and LMB and we are even catching some small channel cat.

I would suspect that the farm field is your culprit for the high pH.

Do you know the landowner? Might be beneficial to ask him about their general schedule and components for their chemical applications.

If you aren't comfortable talking with him, then maybe you can find out the typical local treatment practices for whatever crop he has in each rotation.

Do you know if the soil in your area is acidic? Chemical amendments are used with certain herbicides to do a better job in conditions where soil pH is above or below 7.4 by much, but to take 7 range to 9+ would require a tremendous amount of product-way more than would be used in a normal farming operation.

FishinRod and Snipe- Thanks for the advice about checking into local conditions and with the neighboring farmer. I will get a water and soil test and talk with my neighbor.
Another thought I had as i was getting educated about this problem was that my water ph may be elevated because of the ongoing planktonic algae bloom. The Cutrine+ is supposed to be here early next week and I will do a series of ph checks after I treat the pond.