I'm in the Buffalo Tx area and am wondering if there is a good wild water plant to " plant" in my 5ac pond that won't take over the whole pond

Would american pondweed or pickerel weed be a good choice or would nothing at all be better?

----------
Pat W

I'm in SW MO, and I'm wondering about the same thing. I have an old pond with almost no vegetation in it. I planted a few wild celery plants this fall just to see if they will survive, and I've ordered Pontederia cordata (Pickerel Plant)and duck potato seed. The problem for me is finding plants that will provide shelter for forage species without turning into a management nightmare. Water plantain and mud plantain also look like they could work for me. I almost ordered arum seed before I learned that it's toxic to livestock. I will probably order duck potato and wild celery tubers in the spring.

Pat:

Pickerelweed is a marginal, growing both in and out of the pond at the waters edge. I like American Pondweed. It provides some shade for the fish, it's easy to fish in with weedless topwater lures and it's easy to control if it gets out of hand.

The downside is that it doesn't provide cover for YOY fish. That's not a problem if you have artificial cover in the pond for them. Look at Eel grass too.

Eel grass is another name for wild celery. It goes by a lot of names. Its generic name is Valisneria americana. My booklet on nuisance aquatic plants in MO ponds says there are 10 species of pondweeds in MO, and not all are considered a nuisance, but it doesn't say which are which. I've wondered about American Pondweed (Potamogeton nodosus).

I would have thought American Pond weed would be good cover/habitat for YOY with all those stems and leaves - both floating and submerged. What is it about it that doesn't work well as cover for the YOY?

FWIW I tried planting several types of vegetation last year. Just small amounts of each to see what would survive the large level swings in a water table pond. The duck potato, creeping rush and yellow lilies did well. One plant, of what I think is American pond weed, showed up last summer. I am hoping it survives and spreads some. Water arum, dwarf cattail, pickerelweed, dwarf sagittaria, soft rush and lizard tail did not do well and I doubt they will survive.

Bob Lusk advised me to look at American pondweed and Button brush on the edges of the pond. I'd like some non-aggressive water lilies, too, but want to be sure before I plant any.

Louisiana iris...these do spread but not aggressively and can relatively easily be managed.

You can always plant waterlilies in large pots or washtubs to prevent spreading.

Anthropic, Al (Fireishot) posted a while back, of a place in the DFW area, where waterlilies with reduced spreading tendencies might be purchased. Maybe he will pass along the name of the business again. or you maybe could pm him for the info. And my water celery did not survive, I figure reduced light in a fertilized pond is why it did not take. Reduced light penetration = plant dies, I knew that if I would have just thought about it before spending the $$ DA on my part. And JDM is right on with the Louisiana Iris, has done well at my pond along with Blue Flag Iris. American Pondweed 2 plants out of approx. $600 worth survived. Better than none, I guess. And nothing from MN has come to the pond waters, so I might be lucky there.

Tracy

Tracy,

I think you are spot on with your assessment with respect to sunlight. I suspect many of the marginals I planted did not survive because I planted them at low pool. When Ma Nature brought rain that put them under 4 feet of water for several weeks, they died off. I am going to try some of them again but plant them much higher up on the shore. Hopefully, that and improved pond visibility, do to erosion control efforts implemented since the last planting, will provide a better result.

Tracy, don't give up on your plants just yet. When I planted Vallisneria americana, it looked like it had be sprayed with Rodeo all year, then sprouted right up the next spring. I've been looking at the Taro plant, and I think I'll be adding a few of those to the shady areas of the pond.

Creative Water Gardens in Garland TX is where I shop. Pat, be careful if you shop at "water garden" shops. Some of the plants they stock are very invasive, and work best in small koi-type ponds where they're easily managed by hand.

Al, Thanks for passing along the info AGAIN And I hope u r correct about the plants sprouting back up. it was like throwing money away after seeing the results of my planting. I like plants, all plants that are beneficial to all wildlife, so when I have a bust, I am not real happy about it, even though I learn from my mess ups.

Tracy

Bill D, I remember when I was new to pond plants and we were talking of our plantings and how we would share our experiences, so what I have learned is, do not do as I do and I continue to hope your plantings do well.

Tracy

I have purchased water lilies from www.texaswaterlilies.com. I came across that recommendation somewhere on this site. They have a huge selection and great service. They have low spreading varieties. The plants came quickly, healthy, and I have not found any stray plants that tagged along.

I had trouble getting my lilies established but it was due to something eating them every time they sent up a new leaf.

Bill, it's about cover density. Look at the stems of APW, see how far they are apart? Little fish need cover that is closer together, as they grow larger, the spaces between the cover can get larger and larger. My take on it is that 3"-8" fish can swim through that cover VERY easily, and smaller YOY fish don't have places to escape predation that easily, when compared to denser cover. Compare the stems of APW to plants like Coontail, Milfoil, etc. Not saying that THEY are good for a pond, just comparing types of cover.

Makes sense. I guess in my case, with effectively no submerged vegetation currently, I will take the pond weed, if it grows, as better than nothing. I might try the Eel grass next spring as well if I can find a source.

Bill D., you are finding out what my problem is. Pond level drops, shallow water pond bottom is exposed, plants die.

When the pond fills, it's tannin laden water from the woods, and there is not enough sunlight reaching the existing wet pond bottom, all the sun can do is reach the bottom that was dry for months. Hence no underwater weed growth, no cover is shallow water for the YOY fish.

If I had plastic cover in the shallow areas of the pond for YOY fish, then 6+ months of the year it would be out of water and look ugly.

Unfortunately I don't have an answer. The only possible solution would be floating islands with stuff hanging down, but they'd have to be anchored in deeper water every week as the pond water level drops.

The downside to that is they make perfect waterfowl (goose) nesting sites. I've got enough problems keeping them off of the pond and the island...........

Kester's Wild Game Food Nurseries INC. sells eelgrass. They call it water celery. They show it in one place but it's not on their price list. They told me over the phone they sell it as tubers and in another form (plants or seed I suppose).

Thanks Turtle,

I will check them out.

Esshup,

I definitely share your pain. Sounds like we need a thread for the water table pond owners where we can document vegetation success stories and the not so successful stories to help others following this path.

I have to smile about what plants are best for a pond. Things constantly change. The reaction to every action thing is constantly taking place. Plant bog plants and the water goes down and that hard work and expense is down the drain. Plant some eel grass and then put in some grass carp and in my experience there goes the grass. Then when it gets really out of hand, chemically zap it and start all over again. So the fun is enjoying the journey to what ever you seek in your perfect pond.

Eurasian Water Milfoil does well in my situation..............
Thanks to the geese.

I will be hitting it again this Spring with Fluridone.

My pond will always be up and down. Makes the selection of planting pretty difficult.
I think we will plant some iris around the edges, and see how that goes.
Limited drainage into the pond, and a slow leak from somewhere in the bottom will always keep it going up and down. Surrounded by trees, and steep banks won't help much either. Along with a clay base, it makes for tough growing. Although my fescue and winter wheat that we planted along the banks, did come in very well.

Maybe some ideas here

http://www.cardnonativeplantnursery.com/docs/default-source/catalog/stormwater121214.pdf?sfvrsn=4

RAH,

Thanks for the info. I'm always looking for new sources and options. The forb mix looks like something I'd be interested in.

We have had mixed luck with direct seeding and have gone to buying seed packets and raising seedlings for transplanting. More work but more successful and economical.

I did a little of that last summer and had some luck. Unfortunately, I bought the seed in late spring and most required a cold stratification of anywhere from 60 to 120 days. By the time I did the pre-treatment and planted the seeds it was mid to late summer. They did come up and I transplanted them at the pond but I suspect they were too little to survive. This year the plan is to buy the seed in Jan/Feb so I can get them started in pots a lot earlier and be transplanting by June.

You often have the ability to plant a bit later when the soil stays wet.

My 5 ac is 2 years old and no native water plants yet .... With ducks and GBH I Woolf think that it would get in there on its own.... There are two lakes near (300) yards that is full of plants that is a problem for them... So I haven't put any in. I have about an acre of flooded timber and youpon so the little YOY have a little cover but not enough I don't think

Pat, all you have to do is type the following: "I hope no vegetation will ever become established in my pond." This Spring, you're going to see multiple cultivars taking off.

The more you type this sentence, the more vegetation will grow. I stand by this method, and can guarantee results this year for you.

My sister has worked there for over 20 years and I believe she's the one who also takes most of the pictures of the plants that you see in the catalog. Their nursery is 8 miles from here.

Great photos!

Thanks, I'll let her know when I see her on Friday.

SetterGuy Irises will do well in a pond where the water level rises and falls. Mine have been way out of water and deep in water and have thrived and expanded over the years.

I have used their plants, and I think INDOT got plants from them when they built a mitigation wetland on our place.

Thanks John,
There is a pond supply place near me that sells plants, and a few fish, mostly for very small backyard ponds, but he has the iris there. They even grow on the edge of the asphalt parking lot. No water in sight.. I was thinking that's what I would need.

Is the Iris a special kind of Iris? Reason I ask is every abandoned farmstead around here has some Iris growing in a ditch or fence. Very hardy and a popular plant a hundred years ago.

If that is the kind that works around water, wife likes them and we have them growing wild on the place. Multiple color flowers.

Blue flags (and other specific iris) are especially adapted to wet conditions.

Wife says what we have around farmsteads is a Bearded Iris. But she also says she knows where to get the other kind. The Blue Flag Iris appears to be a more open flower than the Iris that was popular plantings around farmsteads.

https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&a...;q=Bearded+iris

Reading up on the Bearded Iris, it says excellent drainage is a must, so they would not likely be suitable for wet pond edge conditions.

At what depth of water can Iris plants tolerate. Is two feet going to drown the plants?

Yellow flags (non-native and somewhat invasive) can live in a foot or more of water. Blue flags (native and not invasive) tolerate less depth on a consistent basis - maybe a few inches. Both are quite attractive. You may be warm enough to have other types survive in your location.

http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/beauty/iris/

The ones we were considering are the blue flags. They will mostly line the bank above the higher water line.
As far as "in" the water goes. I'm not sure I'll get anything to grow. (for the previously stated issues.)

Good info that above the waterline will work for the blue flag. I have a bunch of blue flag seed in the refrigerator. Been waiting for the weather to get cold so I can plant them without them breaking dormancy. Maybe next week.

I found my yellow and blue flag at the tail end of a reservoir I was kayaking. It is a very slow spreader. Of all the plants I have planted I would pick it #1 for me and my likes.

The invasiveness of blue and yellow flags are very different. I suggest that anyone considering planting yellow flags do their homework.

My Louisiana iris and blue flag iris has been at the ponds edge now and growing into its 2nd winter. Planted at water edge has put the plants base as high as 12" above the water level during the summer drought and as deep as 12" below water surface during the fall, winter and spring. In the high water level, maybe 2 to 4" of the highest tips of the plants are out of the water, which means most all of the plants are submerged. They are growing in this environment ( I'm suppressed). They are planted and growing at the two Wood Duck box locations at the pond. I am hoping the plants will continue to grow to new heights helping to hide the posts the wood duck boxes are setting on.

Tracy

Any of you guys plant seed to get your blue flag going?

Bill, I got my 6 plants from a local plant nursery. He is a long time acquaintance and so I asked him how he came across the plants to have them at his business. He told me of times when he would remodel someone's yard or home landscaping, he might bring them to his place of business for resale. The plants came in a one gallon container and I might have pd $3.00 per plant. I think they would grow from seed with little effort, but maybe not

Tracy

I don't need additional problems. Thanks for the head's up.. The wife prefers the blue, so that's 90% of the discussion.. ;-)

When I dug my yellow flag I didn't even know I had any blue flag in the plants but they did show up, but after 15 years they are still almost non existent. I've got a couple of plants on each side of the pond, one side I planted on and the other side one just showed up. So in 15 years of growth I doubt if I can find 6 plants around the pond. Now the yellow flag's are much more numerous but not what I call invasive. The word invasive would be in the eye of the beholder I guess. The strange thing about the flags is I planted most of them the on the west side of my pond and I'm not sure I can find one on that side to this day but most of the rest of the pond has yellow irises. So I am guessing it was seeds from the original planting before those plants died out that populated the rest of the pond. The prevailing wind is from south west and I have always thought that is what spread the seeds mostly to the north and west of the pond.

John - You may want to read this carefully. http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-AIS_PossessionRules.pdf

I would like to hear more about how you grow water plants from seed. What containers do you start them in and how do you transplant them? How do you learn if the seed needs scarification? How do you store the seed? I'm told the seed I've ordered has to be kept cool and moist until planted.

Years ago I grew trees from seed as a hobby. I ordered seed from an outfit in New England that sold thousands of kinds of seed from around the world. I learned that different seeds require different treatment. Sometimes the treatment is very simple, and sometimes it's complex. Some seed needs to be scarified, some needs to be pre-chilled, and some needs both. Some of the recommended treatments didn't work well for me, and sometimes I worked out something that worked better. One method that often worked well was starting the tree in a 15 oz can, and then when the time came for transplanting, I cut the bottom out of the can and planted the can. I wonder if that wouldn't work for some water plants?

Rah, AQUATIC INVASIVE SPECIES
POSSESSION RULES

Could we also add the potato which came from south America or corn which came from southern Mexico. Invasive corn is planted in my fields every year, or pigs that came from Asia and Europe.

When I built my pond and planted trees in a 5 1/2 acre area around my pond the Department of Natural Resources told me I should plant my trees in rows like corn so I could control invasive plant more easily. Now wouldn't that look nice today with 40 foot trees all in a row.

Turtlemtn I think I remember reading that Black Walnuts fall into the category of needing to freeze before being able to germinate. Anyway, I planted a little over a hundred by picking them up from my main woods and stomping them into the ground around the pond area when the ground was soggy wet and 15 of them grew. today I have squirrels at the pond which is what I was after. I planted about 10 Weeping Willows by cloning from the original tree.

John - Invasive and exotic are not necessarily the same thing. There are non-invasive exotic plants. I am not a purist and only referred you to the regs for your knowledge. I checked this out in response to this thread and just wanted to pass it on FYI. BTW - Corn and potatoes are not considered invasive. Without human care, they will not persist.

I know this is a dumb question but when do you plant these lilies and plants, is it before you fill or when water is at certain depth? How would you plant after the pond has water? Sorry, just new to this and I am digging my 1 acre pond soon. Thanks,

I have always planted after the ponds or wetlands are full. Some plants are planted in very shallow water, while I put rocks or a brick on water lily plants to keep them in place until they grow more roots.

Do you leave them in the container when you plant (put in water) and do you cut out bottom of container so the roots have somewhere to go? Where would you put brick?

I have removed them from the containers because I am OK with them spreading. The brick can be put right on top of water lily tubers if they are large enough.