Can anyone tell me which is more cost efficient for a fountain or aeration pump, 110 or 220 volt motors. It will be set on a timer for a few hours each morning during the danger time for oxygen depletion and it will have a manual override to run all day if conditions require more aeration. Just wondering if anyone has specific knowledge that one system performs better and cheaper than the other?
Be veryy very carfull fooling with raw 220 around water if you screw anything up, there is absolutly no hope, you will be dead as a hamer...better stick with 110 much safe
Safety aside, 220v is more efficient.
Believe it or not if you are talking about power outside of the pond then 220v is actually safer then 110v. But in water if concerned about safety use 110v with a GFCI connection as the presence of water negates the saftey aspects of 220v wiring. (Lethality of either is based on duration of contact for the most part. 110v is harder to let go of when shorted then 220v due to the difference is muscle reaction)
If you are going to use a fountain water pump and use the pond for swimming then personally I would do as big_pond mentions and use 110v with a GCFI wired in the circuit. (I've seen unprotected 110v short in water and I have to say I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it). If you are using an aeration pump not in water I would go 220v if possible.
the main advantage of 220 is the amp draw. you can run electric line a lot farther with smaller wire. cost is about the same in power use.with the aeration the motor will run a little cooler on 220, and last longer.as Pottsy said use a GCFI when near water. the problem with GCFI is moisture when installed outside. best to run GCFI breaker in panel box to the pond. as always talk to a qualified electrician before any wiring near water.
I tried to post a reply but somthing messed up..Very bad assumption to make that 220 could ever be safer than 110. It is all about Ohms law V=IR. It is the current that will kill you! 220 will push twice the current through an impeadence than 110.
Yes a machine on 220 will pull half the current for given power output than 110, but will still pull the same amount of power! The real reason for going to 220 would be to reduce the physical size and wieght of a particular machine, can have a reduced size and weight of a motor or machine at a higher voltage than at a lower voltage, but who cares!!!!
Realy what you want to do is go from 110 to a step down transformer and 24V to your airator this makes the most sense and is safest!
But please please don't fool around with 220 and water it is deadly!!!!please dont............
pray tell , who sells a 24v aereator. the motor weighs the same , its how it is wired .
Why not use a GFI and keep the pump a safe distance from the water. You can run the air line a long distance from the pump and then never have to worry about mixing water and the AC.
big_pond -
Indeed it is the current that kills you and truly in terms of water contact 220 passing more current is more dangerous. Outside of the involvement of water if your contact time with 220 is equal to that of 110v, 220 is again more dangerous due to the current issue. However human muscle reaction to 110v current is one of contraction where as 220v is muscle spasm. Therefore you are more likely to be in forced contact with 110v electricity to the point of it being lethal then you are to 220v. (110v you may not be able to let go of, 220v is much more likely to force you to let go of it) Again this is not in relation to contact with water or other source of uncontrolled contact.
Now if you can invert to DC then all the better, it may give you a shock but not the nature that tends to stop your heart as does AC.
James - On a specific note to your situation... I agree with Tuzz... go with aeration and run the majoprity of the distance with airline as opposed to powerline. Much less loss.
I have had both 110 aerators and 220 aerators short out in ponds. Each time when I went out to check to see why they were not running the water close to the aerators had an electrical charge present about 3 feet out from the aerator. There was more of a sharp tingle than a shock to it. Each aerator was about 10 feet from the bank. My point is when I stepped in the water it did not electricute me. Obviously, I did not touch any wires or the aerator after feeling the electricity in the water as I approached. I know our aerators which are 220 use less eletricity and the motors last longer.
Whenever people ask me an electrical question I tell them "I am an expert on electricity". I know that it will kill the hell out of you".
This thing about being able to let go of 220 better than 110, or one I heard is 220 will knock you down but not hurt, or 220 will bounce off of you and 110 will stick....these are really all a bunch of wives tells I'v been hit by 110 plenty of times, at home working on some of my crazy projects, and even at work in the lab, working on a top swiched power supply. Every time I am able to let go. I have also herd of friends and fellow Engineers who got hit by 220 and they are not here any more.......take your pick I have never got hit by 220 this stuff is a killer, it is usully used to power big motors or furnance in cermercial applications.
I'm having some trouble understanding how you fellows are wiring something that can short out and not trip the circuit breakers or blow fuses, do you have juicy fruit wrappers or aluminum foil behind your fuses? Or maybe you are just hooking to the weatherhead outside the house to pull your power? Maybe someone can explain how you can do this, but if I touch a common and a hot wire together the breakers trip in my electric box, would this not be the same if water brought the two together?
Bring water together with 220 or even 110 is not the same as bringing copper together Water has a much much higher impeadance than copper, infact pure distilled water is almost a perfect diaelectric! but of course pond water has all sorts of minerals in it that would lower the impeadance...
My comments about 220 versus 110 are based only on the science of the matter. I too have had more then my share of encounters with 110v and never 220... been knocked right off my chair by high voltage transformers in TV's. I don't really want to test out contact wth 220 either to give 'personal' feedback. I think we'll all agree that electricity and water are a bad mix and GCFI use in relation to wet areas is a no-brainer.
I've been reading this thread with a smile. Guess I might as well jump in this macho contest. :p
I work on industrial a/c machines wich operate with both a/c & d/c voltages anything from 5V DC to 4160V a/c.
It's all about relativity. 24V a/c can stop a heart under the right conditions. Numerous repair men have died from 110V encounters. 220, 277, & 460V can & have killed.
Current will take the path of least resistance, if you are in series with that path to ground .. well there is a better than average chance your
relatives will be getting togeather soon.
I agree with Ric on you guys getting a good will done. The very idea of messing around with 220v and water scares the pi$$ out of me.
Ric, Your right on with the voltages they can all be a problem in the right conditions. Now back to the original post "Cost efficiency"Yes higher voltages run for less $$$ and between 110 and 220 there is little difference. This is always a common question when I size a system for a customer.A 1/4 HP motor (Gast 0523 r vane pump)at .07 cents per KW costs >26 cents to operate for 8 hours on 220 volt and .28 cents per 8 hr on 110 volt. A 1HP system (1423 Gast) costs .86 cents 220 volt and .91 cents 110 volt for the same 8 hour period.So cost difference is there but not great.Obviously as you move into the larger HP fountains the cost spread is greater but usually 110 volt is not an option on larger fountains.WE wont get into slower RPM motors when cycles are changed from 60 to 50 (another can of worms)When speaking of aeration "EFFICIENCY" I find the most overlooked area is in the choice of diffuser.If you are pumping 1.5 CFM of air for example to one diffuser you may want a diffuser that turns over the most amount of water. In 12 feet of water a good turnover rate would be 2600-2800 GPM. No airstones that I know do this and only one membrane manufacturer.Most rubber membranes are made for the wastwater industry and are designed for large volumes of high CFM of air.So when you mention "EFFICIENCY" consider looking at diffusers that have been tested for water turnover (let the testing method debate begin)For some turnover testing rates of different systems check out the info at vertexwaterfeatures.com (had to get that plug in)All good posts, Ted "ForeverGreen"
Thank you all for the input. Without a doubt we will have the wiring done by a professional electrician, and we will use ground fault outlets as well as having our outlet far from the water. The pond will have to be aerated with a fountain (the lady of the pond likes the look) although I agree that an aerator would be more beneficial, theres just some things you got to do! We will unplug the fountain any time anyone goes into the pond for any reason, but I agree, a properly installed ground fault outlet will disconnect power at the first bit of moisture contacting the electrical system. SAFETY FIRST, THEN FISHING!!!
AC voltage consists of a sine wave, it begins at zero volts, travels up to a peak value, then back down to zero, going on past zero to a negative peak value. The positive and negative peaks have the same magnitude.
110 volts is fed to an instrument via one "hot" wire with the above described waveform on it, and a neutral wire which is essentially ground.
220 volts is fed via two "hot" wires. Each consisting of 110 volts. However, when one wire's sine wave is at a positive peak, the other is, at that same instant, at a negative peak. So 220 volts is nothing but two 110 volt wires that carry waveforms which are 180 degrees out of phase with each other.
As an easier example, if you and your friend go into a building, and he stays on the ground floor, and you walk up ten steps to the second story, you guys are ten steps apart. But if he goes down ten steps into the basement, you guys are now 20 steps apart. This is the way that 220VAC works. It is two opposite phases of 110.
I said all that to say that 220 is rarely more dangerous than 110. If one "hot" wire becomes exposed to the water, it is only 110V; be it in a 110V system or a 220V system. The only rise in danger exists when a person touches both phases. That is, when he touches both hot wires. Then he has a difference of 220 volts across his body. That increases the danger. But my point is that 220V is rarely more dangerous to use in water than 110V. Because most shocks only occur by touching one point that you are not supposed to. Rarely will anyone simultaneously touch the two opposite phases.
Next topic, which is cheaper? Both cost about the same. If you purchase a motor which can be wired to run on 110V OR be wired to run on 220V, the question most people ask is, "Which is cheaper." The answer, "neither." Say you are connecting that motor to an air compressor. So for instance, you connect it to 110V, and it pulls, oh lets say 6 amps. The power company charges you for power. Power is equal to voltage multiplied by current. So your 110V times 6 amps equals 660 watts of power that the air compressor is pulling.
Now you take the same air compressor and re-wire it for 220V. When you turn it back on, it will pull 3 amps. Doing the math, 220 volts times 3 amps equals 660 watts. So the power company can not be cheated. If you are going to compress air with that compressor, it takes 660 watts of power to do the work, and they are going to charge you for 660 watts. Now, there is a savings in wire if you are running the wire to the compressor. Wire that carries only 3 amps can be smaller than wire that has to carry 6 amps. So you can save money in wire.
In either case, use a GFI for safety. Swampstalker, you mentioned feeling a shock in your water. You need a GFI and it will keep you from getting shocked. Although you have yet to suffer harm from the times that you got shocked, who knows about next time. Get a GFI!
Nick,
220V ia definatley more efficient than 110V. Someone mentioned earlier about ohms law. That ohms law was for DC power. AC power has to include a power factor. P=IECosTheta. CosTheta is the power factor in ac. You want theta to be as close to zero as possible, because the Cos of 0 = 1, which means that the machine is purely resitive and no capacitance or inductance exists, so all the power is real.
Given the standard output in watts- Say 1000 Watts, and the voltage is 110V. Assuming the PF is 1, that would give you 9 Amps of current.
Given the standard output in watts- Say 1000 Watts, and the voltage is 220V. Assuming the PF is 1, that would give you 4.5 Amps of current. That doesn't sound like a lot, but the higher the wattage rating of the motor, the more difference 220V makes.
Say you have a 20 acre lake and you needed (3) 2 hp motors for aeration. You ran the aerators 24hrs/day, 7 days week at a cost of $.03 per amphr(I don't know the exact cost per hr, this is made up).
Those motors combined would draw 41 Amps at 110V
and 20.3 at 220V. That's a big difference.
$.03 for 1 amphr
At 110V
41A x 24 hrs/day x 7 days/wk x 52wks/year x $.03/ amphr= $10,745
At 220V
20.3A x 24 hrs/day x 7 days/wk x 52wks/year x $.03/ amphr= $5372
Another big question is efficiency.
Efficiency = Power Out/ Power In.
So if the motor is 85% efficient, and the input power is 1000W, then
1000x(.85)= Power Out
Power Out= 750 Watts
You are paying for 1000W and only getting 750 Watts.
So the closer the efficiency is to 100% or 1, the better off you are.
I hope this wasn't to cumbersome to read.
Wesley,
First, and I hope this does not sound like bragging, let me say that I am a college instructor, teaching electronics. So, what I said is true. 220 VAC is made up of two 110 VAC sine waves of opposite phase. I have looked at in on an oscilloscope. If they were in phase, there would be zero difference between them.
The other thing that you mentioned that I wanted to reply to is that you said the power company charges for amp-hours. No, they charge for KWH, kilo-watt hours. A kilowatt is 1000 watts. Wattage is the unit of power measurement. They charge for power, which is equal to voltage times current.
All of the other stuff that you mentioned is negligible. The point is that if you need a 1HP motor, it will cost you the same to run if no matter if you wire it for 220 V or 110 V. The motor needs a certain amount of power to run under load. The load does not change with the voltage applied. Neither does the power required to pull that load.
If you want to get technical, we could talk about line loss, and the fact that 220V has less line loss. Which is a savings, that could be a factor, more so if you are running a long power feed. Other than that, there is no difference.
Funniest post I've seen since the guys were reading their PH tubes upsidedown ! 220V is common for water well pumps right ? lol
What voltage is preferred for solar equipment ? hahahah.
Nick Smith,
You are right!! I my self am an Electrical Engineer, and practice this field now on my job. You can easily have a 120V motor that is more effecient than a 220V motor. It is all in how it is built. If you have a large IR loss in a 220 volt motor and have a very littel IR loss in a 110 volt motor then the 110 volt motor will be more effecient.
Also, I don't care how you look at it, the inheriat risk of 220 is for more dangrous than 110.....if thoes two hots get exposed then you will have big problems..
Man it's been awhile. I try to edit my post earlier, but I had to let it stand. I knew yall come back at me.
Wesley , on your cost estimate to run the compresser for 110v is nice , but the 220v you have to figure both lines , bring the cost the same.
i thought i would add one more thing to this thread. between 110v and 220v the only real difference is your amp draw. therefore the 220v unit is best suited for longer runs of wire , that being the only real advantage of using a 220v unit. to run a 110v unit 800 ft. at 5 amps you would need 4 ga. wire , which is 3 different wires for direct burial , at a cost of about 1.50 ft. for all 3 wires , that size wire includes start up amps , not just running amps. a 220v unit 800ft. at 2.5 amps each leg , you would need a 10 ga. wire , at .50 a ft. , at 800 ft, i just got my compresser kit for free.
Man!!! Run that thang on 110 and be safe!! shoooot...
and be done with it..
you read , but you just don't get it.
Just a note: The ground wire can be of a smaller size than the voltage/current bearing wires saving a little more $$!
Ken,
You just convinced me to have 220v ran from my garage to my shed. A distance of 420'. From the shed it is only 75' to the pond. Some fella was quoting me a buck a ft for wire which based on your post seems a little high. $200 for wire versus 400 plus sounds pretty good to me. Now I just have to save up the money to get it done.
Just FYI, for you that are running wire.
Amperage capacity for various wire sizes.
Assuming buried, or in a raceway.
14 gauge - 20 amps
12 gauge - 25 amps
10 gauge - 35 amps
8 gauge - 50 amps
6 gauge - 65 amps
4 gauge - 85 amps
3 gauge - 100 amps
2 gauge - 115 amps
1 gauge - 130 amps
Add in a safety factor. In other words, if you are running a wire to the shed, and plan to run a welder that pulls 25 amps, go with 10 gauge at least. If you are gonna have lights on at the same time, use even bigger wire!
i have the power for the compresser on a timer , a 220v plug for waterfall pump and 110v for water fall lighting or whatever , when campimg out. of course you can't run the compresser and pump at same time. running the air 75' under ground could cause some problems in the winter in not flowing all down hill to the diffusers.
2004 seems so long ago... I was looking on the net and this thread popped up..
I guess since bluegill kicked it up in Jan, and now it's March I might as well ask another question.If you already have 220 and 110 run to the shed you are going to house the pump in, which is more efficient? Seems like(from this thread) the efficiency is about the same but maybe using a 220 the pump would last longer.
Yes, no, ...maybe?
PS Post # 1
Welcome to the forum marauder!!!
220 is more efficient than 110 in apple to apple comparisons...BTW in the USA if you have 220v, it is only acheived by running two 110v leads.
Me and Bill Cody had a nice long conversation on this very subject. coming to the exact answer everyone always wants to know.. Basically it boils down to about the same cost to run both (within cents) Good thing about 220v it last a little longer, and doesnt suck as much juice causing dimming on start up..
Basically 220v is running on 2-110 lines half power on each line.. 110 runs the same just on one line.. So i would say use whatever is more convenient..