Another new guy here in need of advice, any and all comments welcome. I found this forum last summer and have been steadily reading trying to educate my self so that when I got to the point of asking questions I would be able understand the information that I received. I have been be banging my head against the wall for the last two summers fighting FA. The FA gets so bad during the summer I fully expect a fish kill. During the winter the pond looks good, but the summer all bets are off. Even now when we had a few days weather in the high 60’s low 70’s and I found some FA…. The way I have been combating it is with Cutrine Plus, but I can never get ahead of it. And from the reading that I have been doing I am probably only feeding the monster. So here goes.
The pond is at the bottom of two hills so in the summer it gets hot and doesn’t get much wind. What I would like to do is aerate and possibly add some Talapia. I will be building a system myself trying to stay on somewhat of a budget. I am not worried about the mechanical or electrical ascpect of any of the construction I just need to make sure my numbers are correct would like to get some advice from some experts in the field which from what I read there are several hanging around here.
So does anyone have any suggestions on CFM’s I would need to look for in a pump, I was reading on another thread that there was already a thread that existed that gave that information but I was unable to find that thread?
Location of aerators (I am thinking that I will probably end up with one set in the center of the pond and one in the neck). Or would a long piece of the perforated tubing running the length of the pond be better? There are several ways to go I know but I would really like to hear some other opinions besides the ones in my head.. Please feel free to weigh in, aeration and Talapia may only be a piece of the puzzle that I need to look at. I am going to try to attach some pictures also.
The specifics about the pond are:

¾ acre of surface water with steep slopes.

10’ deep in the center of the pond this includes the neck.

Shallow spot at base of neck 4 ½ ‘ deep, but neck is also 10'
deep.

Some vegetation on west side which are a few Cattails.

The pond location is in a creek bed that was dug out for the
pond about 4 years ago.
The creek/ditch only runs when it rains so basically it’s run
off only.
Neighbor hood on one side of pond approximately 15 houses.

Pasture on other side of pond, shows dirt in picture on one of
the pictures I will try to attach here but is now grass.

In picture with dimensions the pond is 4’ low It is an satelite
picture off of bing which was probably taken right after it
was built and hadn't filled with water completely.

Pond has a good fish population. (Bass, Blue gill, Catfish) (Bullfrogs)

Thanks for any comments.

[img][/img]

[img][/img]



[img][/img]

Spencer welcome aboard. Your pics help alot along with your descriptions and goals. Your two pronged approach with aeration and tilapia are wise.As far as aeration and doing it yourself look into two airstations with your depths. I can suggest a standard Vertex Coactive model for the deeper bowl and a Shallow water model for the neck. A compressor that supplies from 2.5 cfm to 4.2 cfm will be plenty. This can be from a 1/4 hp to a 1/3 hp rotary vane or a wob-l piston type compressor depending on how long your lines will be from the compressor.As far a a manifold and valve setup feel free to look at our Economy Series for ideas on how to build your own.Let us know any other questions you may have.

Spencer, aeration is always great for a pond, but it won't get rid of FA; I fish a pond about the size of yours that has an aerator running 24/7 and the FA was awful last year on it, as it was the year before. That pond also had tilapia stocked year before last, and they didn't remotely control the FA.

Grass carp will control it, for much less than what you'd spend on tilapia. However, grass carp love pellet food, so if you ever plan on feeding your bluegill to get them really big, or increase their spawning success for more forage for the bass, the grass carp will hog most of the food once they get big. A better option in my opinion, considering how clear your water is, would be to fertilize beginning in late February, or even mid-February. First check your alkalinity; if it's below 20 ppm, you may need to lime first (cheap, just have to find someone in the area that does it, usually not difficult). Once you get a plankton bloom established, the FA can't grow anymore because the bloom prevents the sunlight from penetrating down through the water to the bottom. An additional benefit is that your fish will grow much faster and larger than they are currently due to a better food chain. Once a bloom is present, you'll only have to fertilize about once a month from February or March through October or November, and sometimes less than that, to keep the bloom going; when you can see a bright white object deeper than eighteen inches, it's time to fertilize.

An aerator would still be good, especially if your area is subject to the severe droughts that parts of your state see; an aerator would prevent a fish kill if there were a major drop in overall acreage in conjunction with a heavy plankton bloom. If you aerate and fertilize, you'll have some big fish.

Talk to Overtons and Rainman and others about the success with grass carp vs tilapia for FA in Texas tanks. I believe you'll find GC consistantly come up short on FA by comparison.The warmer the water the earlier in the season tilapia are present the more success youll have with them. The further north you are and have FA get a foothold before you can stock tilapia the less success you'll have.They can have some affect on Chara as far as algae go but dont believe that is a concern of yours.Consider a properly sized aeration system along with the correct number and size of tilapia to meet your goals.Walt is correct that aeration alone will not solve your problem.Aeration is not meant to eliminate FA as many claim.Planktonic algae and sunlight will be your oxgen producer which will give you highs and lows from day to day and season to season. Proper aeration will lower the highs and raise the lows to help you maintain a more consistant oxygen level.I have seen it at best reduce FA but there is no interaction that aeration promotes that will consistantly cause this..I have also experienced GC bypass FA (lyngbya,Spirogyra,hydrodictyon and even calcified chara) without other vegetation in a pond. Others may have different success with GC.Keep doing your research as youve tapped a great source of experience on this site.

Hello SpencerM and welcome to Pond Boss, thanks for joining in and posting!

I would think that a pasture bordering a pond would provide plenty of fertilizer. Aeration will help in removing excess nutrients and boost aerobic bacteria levels. In a 3/4 acre pond, one air station in the deepest part should suffice. The algae in the picture looks like spirogyra which should be easy to control. How often have you applied Cutrine? What amount and method?

Thanks for the replies, to answer a few of the questions and to ask a few more here we go.

Ted
I have looked at the systems you referred too and that is indeed what I am thinking about. I went back and corrected my org. post after seeing your reply. The neck is not shallow it may actually be a foot or two deeper than main pond (around 11’) just the base of the neck where it connects to the pond is shallow for about 10’ wide. What CFM does each of the Vertex aerators need, would you suggest 2 side by side in each of the locations? The compressor will be at the pond.

Walt
The pond is extremely clear minus the algae. I don’t have a water test kit yet (will look into it) but I did have a roll of PH paper so I went down to the pond a few minutes ago and dipped it in. A few minutes later I took pictures of the paper (which I am having trouble up loading right now) and it showed a value of real close to 9 in alkalinity. Not sure this is a valid test though??? I did go and do some reading after you’re post earlier and everything that I read did indicate that my water is to clear, I can see several feet in the water with no problem. If I fertilize won’t I be feeding what I am trying to get rid of? What type of fertilizer are you talking about?

Brian75
I may have not described the land next to me correctly, its pasture/field with no cattle or anything on it. Not sure you’d get much fertilization from it.

Thanks Jeff

I am steadily reading and gathering as much information as I can before proceeding thanks everyone and keep the ideas coming please.

If your alkalinity and not the pH is 9 (9 would be very high for pH), then that's extremely low for alkalinity and below what's generally considered the minimum threshold for fertilizer to be effective, so you would need to add lime to make the fertilizer work.

I've had the best luck with liquid fertilizer that's a 10-50-0 formulation; formulations similar to this are sold under several different brands; the one I buy is called Tackle Buster and I get it from my local co-op, about $27 per 2.5 gallon jug, and a gallon does an acre. You will need to dilute it, which can be accomplished a few different ways ranging from pouring the liquid into the prop wash of a small outboard (the best method) to spraying it onto the surface with a garden sprayer like one would use for a herbicide application to diluting it 10:1 with pond water in a five-gallon bucket and splashing it onto the surface of the pond.

If you start fertilizing in mid-February or the beginning of March (I start in March but I live in TN, don't know what part of TX you're in), assuming you lime first with a ton of lime per acre, you should get a good plankton bloom by the second (which should come two weeks after the first) or third application of fertilizer. The FA won't be at full strength by then, so before it has a chance to take off you'll be blocking out its lifeline, and it will die. If your soil were naturally fertile, you possibly could fertilize even after the FA got going good, as I've done this more than once and initially for a couple days the FA grew more but as soon as a good bloom occurred the FA died off; but seeing as you haven't fertilized before, you would want to get ahead of the FA by fertilizing early. But if your alkalinity is 9, liming first will be crucial to make the fertilizer work.

Also, Cutrine is copper sulfate, which has been shown to build up in ponds over time and eventually can be toxic to the fish - so, not the greatest solution long-term (I never use it).

Cutrine is not CUSO4 (copper sulfate) it is chelated copper. There is a difference. I don’t think the manufacturer would like the comparison.

Let's pretend that I'm a complete idiot Ewest. Can you explain the difference between copper sulfate and chelated copper? Use small words, drawings are welcome also.

Let's see how long it takes someone to swing at that.

It takes a whole lot more chelated copper to kill green sunfish than it does copper sulfate.

Wow, two minutes but with a different twist than I expected. I'm impressed.

New, proprietary app on the Iphone.

I'm not going to shoot the proberbial fish in a barrel, even if it looks suspiciously like a GSF.

Jeez, I'm almost afraid to ask. What is the name of this new proprietary app?


....fastening my seat belt.

Your killing me here.

I literally burst out laughing. Now JWHAP thinks I really, really, enjoy reading Internal Revenue Code.

Now you're pretending that SHE is the idiot.

OH SNAP!!!

That's two in one day, that might be a freakin record or something.

Maybe I could use a copper rod to agitate the pond? Didn't know it was such a stirring stick. Ok Guys/Gals I need some help on this pond before I break and decide to empty it and use it as a motorcycle track this summer.
Did anyone have the answer to the question on the aerators, about how many CFM each need? One of the view points above may be the answer to my problems, but does anyone else have any suggestions? How much does a ton of lime cost?
thanks
Spencer

Spencer M, Each Vertex CoActive Airststion with two discs on each has an operating cfm range from 1 cfm to 2.5 cfm per station.In the neck area since it has some depth just install the Standard 2 disc station. Your pond would have a total of 4 discs in two areas.If your pond was more bowl shaped and deeper we could get by with 1 Airstation.PS If you drain it for a motorcycle track we can use a smaller unit yet

Lime is very cheap, usually less than $100 per ton if I remember correctly. Call your local co-op and see if they deliver it; oftentimes places that sell it will also apply it.

Make sure you get pelleted (ag) lime and not hydrated lime; the former will not raise your pH above 8.5 (ideal), while the latter can raise it as high as 12 which will kill every fish in the pond.

Here by me it is $16/ton and that includes the lime, delivery, and spreading. Have 3 tons to the acre done last year on the new pond site. Remeber lime doesn't cost it pays.

This is Ag lime and not pelletize, pelletize is much more but easy to handle

Spencer,

Just reading in on the topic, my suggestion to resolve your issue would be to install an aeration system with two diffuser stations as recommended above, one placed in the at or near the deepest part of the pond, while placing the other in the deepest part of the cove. Algae is a symptom of your problem, so I would suggest focusing on the problem, which is the available nutrients within your pond.
Aeration is likely the solution to much of your frustration, so I suggest not cutting any corners, even it if takes away from other projects you were planing on paying for in 2010. Install a aerator that is over sized for a 3/4 acre pond. I would recommend and equivalent to a Vertex Air 2 or *Air 3*, which ever size your budget will allow. The headache and treatment savings along with the increase in biomass your pond can support will be worth the investment.
My experience with Grass Carp has had little success with algae removal, so I would stick with the Tilapia, but you may find that algae is not an issue once you have sufficient aeration, especially if you promote phytoplankton to utilize the available nutrients. Install the aeration prior to the warm season if possible, otherwise you will likely feed your algae even more and have a frustrating spring. Getting your pond where you want it may take some precision, so if your alkalinity is low, lime, then once aeration is installed treat your algae in the spring to eliminate it and add some phytoplankton to give the plankton a jump start.

PM sent.

There are several aspects to this project. I have had little success using GC for algae management. They generally prefer to eat everything else before they eat algae. Also Tilapia are not a magic bullet, I wish they were. There are several management efforts we implore to manage algae. But again they are a symptom first we have to address problem.

Also there are strains of algae that grow in cold water. Once water temps warm up these species will die off and another species will take its place.

You are very close to us. Let's talk about your situation and come up with a solution.

In response to difference between cutrine plus and copper sulfate. Cutrine Plus has chelated copper basically chelated copper is combined with other inert ingredients to keep copper more active during a longer period of time. Usually 10 to 14 days. It will not bind to soil.

Copper Sulfate is very fast acting but any excess copper can become bound in soils. This can disrupt natural cycle and growth of aquatic invertebrates that we hold near and dear.

Chad:

You are right about FA growing in cold water. I've got it growing now in my pond (noticeable in the diffuser area) now.
What temp does it die off at?

Most can guess my first response - "It all depends". It depends primarily on the species of algae. Individual species can have specific temperature preferences. I am talking species of algae here not genera as in a scientific name of Genus species. The Genus grouping can have numerous species within it similar to the genus Lepomis (panfish sunfishes). Another example would be threadfin, and gizzard shad. Both in genus Dorosoma, but one preferring warmer temps. Within a genus one can be warm loving, one cold loving and several with no temperature preference technically referred to as eurythermal - tolerating a wide temperature range.
The big problem with all this is to get a specific name for many of the species of at least green algae, one has to see them in certain reproductive stages which is not all that common so they can then only be identified to genus.

Thanks Bill. I noticed algae growing on the fish cage, and the line that was put in the water with the aerator for the winter. Some of it is "blowing" in the water movement that is caused by the aerator. If it sticks around 'till the Blues get stocked this Spring, they will have a full dinner plate.

I've read through this thread. Here are a few on my opinions.
1. Excess nutrients are feeding your FA problem. Excess nutrients can come from many sources. I think in your case they mainly come from: 1. the newly exposed dirt from pond construction, 2. water runoff from hill sides, 3. leaves (decomposition) from the trees along one shore, and 4. a MAJORITY probably come from the stream that drains the neighborhood 15 houses and lord knows what else. Nutrients ARE the problem and FA is a sign nutrients are present in pretty high amounts (as Chad says) . FA will thrive on a nutrient balance (or nitrogen : phosphorus ratio) that will not or cannot produce a green water bloom due to the balance/ratio or sometimes because as mentioned in the posts (Walt) the FA starts first and just out competes the phytoplankton (bloom). First come, first served, sort of thing. ANOTHER hindrance to the development of a bloom can be incorrect alkalinity. (pH is not alkalinity). Basically alkalinity is testing a different substance than pH and Alk is tested a different way. Sometimes liming in itself (increasing alkalinity) will stimulate a bloom IF enough nutrients and the correct balances/ratios are present. Almost always to get blooms excess nutrients are added and it is hoped the application results in the correct nutrient ratio. Rarely does anyone (except academic types) actually test for the nutrient balance/ratios. Bottom line if you lime and fertilize - AERATE to keep things as good as possible.

2. A pond such as yours is predestined to fish kills due to in a valley, lack of wind action, lots of seasonal leaf inputs, lots of cycling of growing, dead or dying FA, and lots of nutrient inputs.

3. Cutrine is copper sulfate that has been chemically modified basically to persist longer in the water column. It involves buffering the copper ions so they more slowly form a copper precipitate. Contrary to what was mentioned, all of it does eventually (sooner or later) become mineralized or bound as copper carbonate and goes into the sediments where it, usually as a inert substance, accumulates as more is added over and over in future treatments. Some copper may be bound in the longer term of the organic biomass where it takes time to work itself into the sediments.

4. Speculation occurred as to what would happen to FA when you aerate. My experience is FA very often reoccurs at some point after ponds are aerated and this is due to excess nutrients still being present that are not used by some other plant be it phytoplankton, rooted vegetation, attached algae (periphyton) or FA. When nutrients are present and other plants are not growing, FA always does grow. Almost never does aeration forever eliminate FA. Sometimes aeration does not even reduce it. Success with this is usually dependant on the source of the nutrients. Good aeration can reduce internal recycling of nutrients and it doesn't do much of anything to dissolved nutrients entering the pond from external sources.

5. As mentioned if you fertilize, first make sure alkalinity is at least 50 ppm (mg/L) (higher is better), apply early before FA starts or establishes, and then reapply enough fertilizer about weekly(?) monthly to maintain enough nutrients present to keep water visibility at about 18"-24". Usually it takes less fertilizer to maintain the bloom than to get it started. Reduce fertilizing in late summer. Mid to Late summer fertilizing can lead to nuisance bluegreen algae blooms.

6. MAYBE - Adding tilapia, and their eating of the algae, and if alkalinity is above 50, and with aeration you could get a natural phytoplankton bloom due to tilapia eating algae and recycling the nutrients in presence of higher alkalinities. This assumes the tilapia will eat your specific type of FA.

7. You mentioned a long tube aerator that would run the length of the pond. Those can be effective. However they provide a gentle laminar upwelling flow and I think they do not provide a strong upwelling to move lots of water forcefully to rapidly turn over a pond's water column which is most beneficial for most pond applications.

So once again, pretending that you are speaking to a complete idiot, Cutrine Plus is not a horrible poison that will cause either my fish or myself to grow additional appendages, right?

Here I tried to simplify the response:

[____] Don't worry JHAP, Cutrine Plus is fine in moderation, although I would stop mixing it with your Captain & Cokes "just for that spicy after taste."

[____] Over a millennium or two Cutrine Plus could build up and cause you to glow in the dark.

[____] None of the above, explanation provided below in such simple terms that a 4 grader or even JHAP could understand.

Note: I have used a Reward/Cutrine Plus combination to treat Elodea and was very happy with the results.

AFS article

Copper is toxic to aquatic animals at concentrations that
depend on the animal species and the water chemistry(i .e.,
pH, hardness and alkalinity).Using Cutrine, (the predecessor t
o Cutrine-Plus,0 .8 times as concentrated S kea and
Simonin( 1979 )reported a 96-h LC50 to fingerling largemouth
bass (Micropterus salmoides) of 6.4 mg copper per
liter at 21.1 øC (methyl orange alkalinity of 53 mg/L) and
0.21 mg/L at 18.3 ø C (methyl orange alkalinity of 95 mg/L)
for fathead minnows (Pimephales promelas). Johnson
(1974), who tested copper sulfate with the marine shrimp
(Penaeus duorarum, P. stylirostris, and P. setiferus),
determinedth at copper sulfate could b e used with juveniles
of these species at levels of 0.5-1.0m g/L as copper sulfate
(alkalinity of 380 mg/L calcium carbonate.).

SRAC http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/1239413-SRA...4398261b3e4b767
Copper sulfate
(Various trade names)
Copper sulfate is a contact herbicide
primarily used to control
algae. However, it is not effective
for Pithophora control. Copper
can interfere with gill functions
and, if improperly used, can be
toxic to fish and zooplankton.
Fish species such as trout and
koi are particularly sensitive to
copper. However, most fish kills
that occur after copper sulfate
treatment are caused by a massive
algae kill and the subsequent
oxygen depletion.
Copper sulfate is also formulated
as a solution made by dissolving
the crystals in a sulfuric acid
solution. These acidified copper
solutions are registered for aquatic
use and sold under various
trade names (e.g., Copper Cat,
EarthTec, AgriTec, etc.).
The effectiveness and safety of
copper sulfate are determined by
alkalinity and water temperature.
In water with an alkalinity ≤ 50
ppm, the rate of copper sulfate
needed to control algae can be
toxic to fish. Copper treatment at
water alkalinities of ≤ 20 ppm is
extremely risky. In high alkalinity
(≤ 250 ppm) water, copper sulfate
quickly precipitates out and
is not effective for algae control.
The toxicity of copper sulfate to
fish increases as water temperature
increases. Avoid copper sulfate
applications during hot summer
months. (For additional
information on treating with copper
see SRAC Publication No.
410, Calculating Treatments for
Ponds and Tanks.)
Chelated copper
(Cutrine®, Komeen, K-Tea®,
Nautique® and other trade names)
Copper that is held in an organic
complex is known as chelated
copper. Chelated copper formulations
do not readily precipitate in
high alkalinity waters, but stay in
solution and remain active longer
than copper sulfate. Chelated copper
is less corrosive to application
equipment than copper sulfate.
Because it is more soluble, chelated
copper is generally used at
slightly lower rates than copper
sulfate. Chelated copper formulations
are slightly less toxic to fish
than copper sulfate. However, in
waters with low alkalinity (≤ 20
ppm), or in water with an alkalinity
of ≤ 50 ppm that contains
trout, using chelated copper is
extremely risky, particularly during
the summer. Some of the
chelated copper compounds work
on higher plants (e.g., hydrilla,
Najas spp., etc.). Check specific
labels for activity or refer to the
Aquaplant Web site at http://aquaplant.
tamu.edu.

AQUA PLANT
Cutrine Plus, K-Tea, Captain, and Clearigate are all chelated or compound copper herbicides and can be used in a mixture with Reward or Aquathol K. Other chelated or compound copper formulations are available but are not linked to this web site.
Copper Sulfate or "blue stone" is probably the most commonly used algal treatments because of its availability and low cost. Copper sulfate comes in several forms depending on how finely it is ground. Smaller crystals will dissolve easier than larger crystals. In very hard water it is difficult to use copper sulfate because it binds with the calcium, precipitates out of solution, and renders the copper ineffective as an algaecide.
All copper compounds can be toxic to fish if used above labeled rates and can be toxic in soft or acidic waters even at label rates. Before using copper is it best to test the pond water�s alkalinity and adjust copper treatments to alkalinity concentrations. For additional information on using copper sulfate see the SRAC #410 Calculating Treatments for Ponds and Tanks.



To our knowledge Copper Sulfate was the first chemical to be used for algae control. Although Copper Sulfate will kill algae, it is a product that we do not normally recommend.
Copper Sulfate reacts to the hardness of the water that it is being applied to, forming an insoluble salt called copper carbonate. The harder the water being treated the less effective the product is, in very hard waters, Copper Sulfate can have less than a minute of active killing time on the algae.
Even though there are more effective and safer products on the market, the use of Copper Sulfate for algae control is still very common, for two reasons, cost and ease of application.
In looking at a per treatment cost on Copper Sulfate versus the cost of Cutrine-Plus or Captain Algaecide, the Copper Sulfate is less expensive. Looking at it on a per treatment basis is misleading, many times the Copper Sulfate user will spend as much or more in a years time, since the Copper Sulfate will not give the length of control that the chelated copper compounds will.
One of the most common methods for applying Copper Sulfate is to put it in a burlap bag and drag it around the pond or lake in back of a boat, or simply to broadcast it by hand, there is no doubt that Copper Sulfate is easier to apply than a liquid compound that must be diluted and sprayed over the surface of the water.
Copper Sulfate is normally used at a rate of 10 lbs. per surface acre, Copper Sulfate unlike the chelated copper compounds, is very toxic to fish food organisms, and unless you are very careful can even kill fish. Toxicity increases as water hardness decreases.
Long term use of Copper Sulfate can actually lead to severe algae problems, although this must sound strange what happens is that over a period of years the copper carbonate buildup on the bottom of the pond actually will inhibit the growth of rooted bottom vegetation. Once rooted bottom vegetation cannot grow due to the buildup of copper carbonate on the bottom, the nutrients that this vegetation would have tied up is now available to excess algae growth.
We highly recommend that you consider using one of the chelated copper compounds, to avoid any loss of fish or damage to the natural balance of your body of water.
Negative info can’t copy http://www.chemone.com/default/other/ark_aquafarming_vol_21_no_2_fall_2004.pdf

Chemistry http://www.mass.gov/agr/pesticides/aquatic/docs/copper.pdf

Pro by fisheries biologist http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/algae_copper.html
Copper sulfate was used many years ago for algae control however there was adverse environmental effects of copper build-up in the bottom sediments when this product was used. Since then and over the last 30 years or so, a chelated (chemically locked in) copper compound was formulated called Cutrine-Plus(available in liquid or granular). The product is far superior to copper sulfate in that it provides a longer contact (killing) time due to its stability to work in alkaline waters. It also provides a longer lasting control than copper sulfate with lower copper dosages being used and requires less frequent applications. Research and field usuage have shown a high potential for detrimental environmental effects. In certain waters, copper sulfate is toxic to fish and other organisms. Overuse of this product is common due to its short-term effectiveness. This can result in copper build-up in the sediments leading to a sterile bottom. A sterile bottom will lead to a lack of beneficial bacteria and cause among other things, high algae blooms which in effect, reduces the chances for aquatic plants to grow due to the shading on the bottom caused from the thick algae. When aquatic plant growth diminishes, so can fish growth and survival.

Leave it to Eric to kill a perfectly good, humorous hyjack with great info!

I know huh.

Actually my post wasn't intended as a hijack, I was just trying to convert all the science talk into something a bean counter could understand. I've read through Eric's post three times know and I think I've come to understand that my use of Reward/Cutrine is fine.

I will however be carefully inspecting all fish and wildlife caught or observed for any sign of the unusual.

Who you calling a bean counter?

(FYI, JHAP took time out from counting beans to make that post.)

Not that he's an accountant or anything. I heard that was just a cover story, but that he actually works for Bush's Baked Beans and fills each can with just the right number of beans!

Todd, that is a complete and utter lie.

I request, no I DEMAND a retraction.

Immediate moderator intervention is required.

I cannot allow this attack on my professionalism to remain un-checked.

I am surprised by your rumor spreading Todd. I simply did not think that you would stoop so low.




















I work for B&M and you know it.

JHAP:
I thought you worked here.

THAT'S what I call "Bush League"!

Okay, okay! You called my bluff! I just didn't want to utter the "B&M" name amongst this group as I knew it would lead us down a toilet humor lined path! Think about it! Beans. Human bean processing by-product. B&M product name. BM bodily functions. It was all just too, too much for me to get started!