90 ac lake in Central Alabama.

Feeding CNB

We have 11 Texas Hunter Feeders and are looking to find an economical way to feed our CNB in 2020. In the past we used Southern States Lil Strike and last year (2019) bought 190 bags.

Is the route we are taking giving us our best bang for the buck? We have a fairly tight budget.

Happy New Year!

Economical and best growth/health may not (won't)be the same.
I'll leave this to someone that may have an option, but why feed if maximizing growth is not the target?

After trying different brands of feeds I settled in with Purina for a couple of reasons. Bob Lusk recommendations of the Aquamax MVP is one. Another is I no longer have to store the feed and keep the mice away and I also like the different pellet sizes and the fact that some float and some sink that come in each sk. Cost is also a factor. I no longer have to pay for shipment. If it were me and it's not but I would ask for a discount from my supplier reminding him of how many sks I will purchase. The most he will say is no discounts. Ha! I asked mine for senior discount and he just laughed. I feed my cnbg for good health and not so much for growth because I want them to produce lots of forage for my lmb/hsb.

Same here. Cost per pound, multiple sizes, and ease of getting it so I don't have to store, makes MVP my choice as well.

After reading you OP again, AM500 may save you a little and allow you to get a little more feed.

The food you are feeding is not ideal for BG. I think you would be better off with fewer pounds of quality feed IMO.

Since switching to Optimal feed a number of years ago I'm really pleased at how well the fish are doing. The biggest plus that I have noticed in my pond vs. the Aquamax that I was feeding is less algae in the pond because I have to feed less food to get the same amount of growth.

Less passing through the fish to feed the algae is what I believe.

I feed Cargill Triton, Purina Aquamax, and Optimal. Cargill for the large CNBG, Optimal&1/8" Cargill mix for smaller CNBG, and I hand feed Purina LMB pellets for my HSB.

All are quality products, and all fit a niche for us.

Optimal and Skretting are my go to...

I feed Aquamax MVP and several Optimal feeds. The Aquamax is hard to beat for the quality/price relationship, but I really like Optimal for the smaller quantities of specialized feeds that I can easily order one bag at a time and have delivered to my doorstep. Trying to get small quantities of specialty feed through Purina is about as pleasant as pulling teeth.

Both are good feed.

Purina does make some lower protein feeds more for recreational feeding rather than growth, but I would stick with the higher level Aquamax.

Here is a thread with feed information and links.

Feeding 190 bags per year to CNB................. I'd definitely call Optimal and talk to Dustin. Absolutely a great guy. Even if you don't buy feed from him, I'm guessing he will educate you on a variety of issues regarding lepomis feeds.

Ditto on Dustin being a great guy.

10,000 pounds annually, you should be getting preferred pricing from everyone. January is a good time to make a few calls and negotiate.We bought 2000 pounds of Purina last season, 60% Game Fish Chow ( $ 28.00 per 50 lb bag ) 40% AM500 ( $ 47.00 per 50 lb bag ) Hoping to lock in similar numbers for 2020 feed season. We feed from April fools day to Halloween, 6 Sweeney feeders on a 54 acre lake.

I have been using Optimal on several existing lakes over the last few years. Our goal has been increasing the forage base by adding additional BG. Dustin has been a great resource and partner in helping us along the way. I can say our BG/RES and SMB have shown unbelievable growth and color each year.

I'll state this again.. If you're going to pump money into feed, use high-quality. I see no advantage of pumping excess algae building nutrients into pond that can't be properly converted and maximize fish biomass/growth/health.
I would also recommend talking to Dustin at optimal.

last time I priced aqaumax mvp I was paying a little less than 40 bucks per sk. And I will feed about 50 to 60 sks per year through three TH feeders. I think its a good feed for growing cnbg to a good size and producing good forage numbers. With all that, it's hard to justify spending more money feeding the fish. And this is just for a pond that is a little over 3 acres. It's kind of like chasing the girls, not cheap but can be a lot of fun

I like it when Optimal has some promotions where they discount the second bag of feed to get you to try some of their other feeds besides just the Bluegill feed. They did that last spring if I recall correctly.

I tried several of their different feeds during that promotion. Some starter, some bass feed and some hand throw. Hope they do that promotion again. Watch on their web site under specials.

Been feeding Optimal the past 3 yrs and I see 3 distinct positive changes as I switched from Aquamax and other brands:

1 - Generally less algae in my pond.
2 - Weight, color, and health of LMB has improved.
3 - BG/RES seem to be producing more resulting in more year round forage than I've seen since building the pond.

Bonus; Justin is an 'engaged' manufacturer that is truly tuned into his customers.

*I've continually hydrated all food prior to hand-feeding it to the fish because it is fully consumed - and not spit-out like the dry food was. Done this for 6-7 years now.

(1+ acre spring-fed pond in NE Ohio)

I�m feeding Optimal but would have no problem with Skretting, Optimax or other quality feed. I will say that the best customer service is Optimal by a long way.

I feed Optimal as well, mostly because they ship it directly to your door. I have looked everywhere in Central Iowa for MVP without any luck. I did have one dealer say he could order it but was requiring me to order way more than I wanted/needed at the time.

I have never understood why some Purina dealers say that. Purina dealers can order one bag at a time on their weekly order. I do it at my local dealer all the time. I pay $41/50# bag for MVP. I can save $1.20/bag if I order a ton at a time.

Brian it may be different depending on your particular warehouse location. I ordered some AM400 once and it took a long time. I was told it had to come from a different warehouse as the one where the dealers feed normally comes from did not stock that feed.

True or not? Don't have a clue. But I do know if I want anything other than AM500-600 or MVP, way better off from a timing standpoint to just order the equivalent in Optimal.

It would be nice if Optimal would do a multi size blend.

BG is a multi-sized blend.. a small amount even sinks. Granted it's not very small to very large but, I did feed Pond bass, BG and Jr mixed myself last summer. Maybe if enough interest was expressed Dustin would consider this?

They do. The Optimal Bluegill food was multi sized before Purina came out with the multi sized feed. (and it still is) That's the great thing about them, they listen to the pond owners and design feed around their needs. Matt Rayl and I were the ones doing the testing and the ground work for Optimal so they could figure out what feed sizes worked the best for the multi-sized fish in the pond.

I am seeing some pictures of testing that I did for them are now showing up on other Optimal sellers websites without any credit for where the pictures came from. This one was from a feed test between Tractor Supply Sportsman's Choice, Purina AM500 and Optimal Bluegill.

Isn't it all the same diameter, and just shorter and longer? Where the MVP sounds like it has multi diameters,or maybe I'm wrong. Does it have as many sizes as the MVP?

Yes, same diameter, different lengths and it has more sizes than MVP. In aquaculture, it's better to feed fish small particle sizes of feed that way they can fit more in their stomach, therefore eating more food per feeding session.

Looks like AM500 would have been way too big of feed size for the target fish. I would think some AM400 would have shown better growth.

I will usually order one bag of small feed (have used AM400 and more recently Optimal largest of the Starter series) and hand throw it close to the bank all aroung the pond in small amounts for a good part of the year. In such small amounts a bag will last me most of the year. The little 2 and 3" BG that hug the protection of the shore line gobble it up. If I throw big feed out there, they will peck at it but can not swallow it. Soon a CC or larger BG shows up and eats it before the small fingerlings can get any to speak of.

I think sizing the feed to the target fish would be very important for successful growth.

I have heard it said on this site that early growth of a fish is important for overall life growth. That is why I make the effort to supplement these fingerling BG early on with the small size feed. Does not cost much (because of the such small amount fed at each feeding) but it does take a lot of time. Of course that is one of the things I enjoy most about the pond, driving around feeding the fish. So it is not a big deal for me.

Optimal Starter #4 what I will be ordering in the next month or two

I started with the Optimal Starter #4, then went to the Junior. I was thinking going to the Bluegill when I ordered the last bag, but Dustin told me to stick with the Junior. Is some of the Bluegill around the same size as the Junior or #4? I may just do like John and order a bag of #4 as well.

Optimal Jr. is 3.5mm diameter. Optimal BG is 4.5mm in diameter. Both Jr and regular BG have the same lengths of pellets in the bag, varying from 1 to 10 mm in length. The % of each pellet size will vary between the Jr and BG food, but the overall length of the pellets is the same.

As for the different sized fish food in each bag, the dia will stay the same the length will vary. What I do and what a lot of clients do is mix 2 different feeds together. I mix Optimal BG along with Optimal Bass in my feeder. One client has 2 feeders on his pond. The one near the bedding area and near the cover for the YOY fish he feeds a mix of Jr and starter feeds, depending on how close (time wise) to the hatch he's feeding. Sway from the spawning area he's feeding a mixture of Optimal BG and Bass food.

I have five TH feeders. None of them reliably throw a mixture of LMB and BG feed from Optimal without jamming every 2 to 4 weeks. Even when the aperture was widened, still problems.

My experience inclines me to hand throw anything much larger than 4.5 mm. Unfortunately, I don't live on site so this limits my program considerably.

Also, using really small feed for YOY BG invariably sticks together & sets up in a block during warmer, humid months. Might be able to avoid this problem with bottom type feeders, but huge problems with broadcast.

Maybe others have the magic touch, but that's been my experience. Another fish feeder company advertised a feeder that would throw 1 inch(!) pellets, but apparently that didn't work out because those ads quickly disappeared.

Wish my feeders could throw 1/2 inch LMB pellets without jamming -- my HSB go nuts for it! -- but it hasn't happened.

Texas Avenger is the other fish feeder company.

Where is the TH feeder jamming up? I can tell you how I adjusted mine to stop that problem.

Snrub, I've been thinking along the same lines. I started with Optimal for couple years, but have switched to AM MVP due to cost, storage, and supply. I was completely satisfied with the quality of Optimal, and if I was feeding smaller scale I would probably still be using Optimal. I'm feeding about 2000# a year.

I haven't really noticed any difference in growth, plant or algae growth since my switch to AM. Although, it is really hard to see slight changes, and my fish class sizes are so much different than they were 3 years ago. Ponds are always evolving, so there is that factor as well.

I heard Bob say Aquamax is doing some growth studies this year as well, so it will be interesting to see how those results compare to other test.

With 1/2" pellets?

What's up with the bulging eyes on those fish? Stunting? They don't look "right".

esshup - are the BG in the picture top to bottom representative individuals respectively fed Sportsman Choice top, Purina middle, and Optimal bottom? I am nosy - do you have full size range measurements for each feeding group? How many in each test group?

Did you do a total fish weight in cage? Would be nice to see the ending total of "x" pounds fish, X pounds of feed, and X total number of fish.

[quote=Bill Cody]esshup - are the BG in the picture top to bottom representative individuals respectively fed Sportsman Choice top, Purina middle, and Optimal bottom? I am nosy - do you have full size range measurements for each feeding group? How many in each test group?
Was wondering the same thing, if those three fish are all the same age and just been fed a different feed, all we need to know is what each of them been fed,, whatever the bottom one has been eating is what Im gonna start feeding mine!

Bill C. has it right. IIRC 100 fish in each 4' square cage, feed ring in cage, each cage fed same amount of food by weight per day put into feed ring. 3 month test. No weight of fish done, I believe our Dentist in Ne. did that.

The best feed is always the feed that doesn't jam the feeders, so it actually gets to the fish. Frustrating.

I can't compare to anything else, I've only feed my BG with Optimal. I stocked them 5-11-19, and while I never caught any, all of them that I seen coming up to feed looked more like #3 by September.

I am kingfish the originator of this thread. After several quotes we have decided to go with Cargill Triton fish food for 2020. It is 45% protein and 12% fat and we feel we can grow some healthy CNBG with this.
We are paying $36 per bag on a pallet basis, delivered to us.

Your thoughts

That is Cargill's Hybrid striped bass formulation. It will work great for bluegill. It has slightly higher carbohydrates vs. the 48/18 formulation. I really liked the 48/18 for growing LMB.

Kingfish how did your fish do during the 2020 year on the cargill feed ?

Billy here we are in the mid season of 2021 and we are still feeding the Triton with much success. Our CNB eat it so quickly that it doe not get wet.
Needless to say we are pleased.

My biggest fear is dying and my wife selling all of my fishing tackle for what I told her I paid for it.......

I've never heard of this feed. You said you paid $36 per bag, but didn't mention the bag size. If its a 50 lb bag for $36, and its 45% protein, doesn't that totally annihilate Optimal and Purina?

I just found these for sale at Overton's: https://overtonfisheries.com/cargill-premium-fish-feed

The prices listed are for direct pickup at their location, but it seems to be $40 per 50lb bag.

Cargill's Triton line is what I feed here, and they come in 50# bags. Solid food that stores well, and offers several sizes I use here. In the hatchery pond, and the feeder at the top of our pond, I feed a 50/50 mix of 1/8" pellets, and 3/16 pellets, thrown for 1 second, once a day. That carpets the water, but has very little volume. All CNBG eat here. At the dam feeder, I only throw the 3/8" pellets. It's hotter, and more expensive, but it's worth it to me. 4 seconds in the morning, and 3 at evening time. That feeds my HSB, larger CNBG, and feed trained F1 LMB. Everybody's happy.

I'd love to see what that price per bag would be delivered via FedEx or UPS to your door.

Walk in price and shipping price is on Overton's website.

Dang, I agree. All look very poor to me. Yeah those don't any look well at all.

esshup, I purchase the Cargill 4512 formula from their Louisiana plant and they ship it to me direct on a regular large freight truck TO MY HOUSE. I purchase a 1/2 pallet at a time...20 bags. These are 50 POUND BAGS. I split the order with another member here on the forum. We also split the freight charges. We have been doing this for 5 or 6 years with fantastic customer service! We also use the 1/8th and 3/16th size pellets. NEVER had a problem with them. Delivered to my door including shipping is around $37 a bag!! I use this feed for everything and ya'll know i had some pure florida LMB that weighed 5 1/4 pounds at ONLY 18 inch long!!

Very nice, Flame. May I ask how much a pallet is, and how many bags are on a pallet? I think it is important to mention that Triton uses "animal and plant based protein" and not fish based, like the AquaMax stuff is. I think the fish meal is just a palatability thing anyway, if I'm not mistaken, and I don't think it matters where the protein comes from. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Steve, a full pallet is 40 bags. It is the same price for the feed but...the shipping will maybe increase some for the extra weight. I have never ordered more than a 1/2 pallet...20 bags at a time. My pond and my friends pond are only 2 acres each. We usually order twice a year. I want to note: I am NOT talking down ANY brand of feed. This is just what I started using and will continue as long as I get good results.

Good feed

Cargill is good feed with good conversion in LMB and BG. It is very dollar efficient for the conversion as well. I am referencing Greg Grimes findings where under his analysis it only slightly underperformed the Purina (MVP I think). Cargill IIRC provided conversion at the lowest cost. I'll link that page later as I am traveling.

Its hard to argue that protein is protein and so I do think fish based lipids and proteins are better ... But for aquaculture acceptable cost efficient alternatives are essential to sustainable feeds. So I see Cargill as a feed worthy of consideration.

Steve_, could you reference the source saying fish meal is not an additive of Cargill feeds? Most manufactures are very reluctant to speak about feed formulations. Also, I am reluctant to accept any claim that protein is sourced only to fish in any particular feed. In the end, if one feeds there will be a conversion/maintenance benefit. Where the focus is recreational, the difference in feeds isn't all that noticeable. In aquaculture, the difference is an economic effect that deserves much deeper consideration.

Steve's reference to the Triton contents is on the bag tag. Not sure where the ingredients for each size would be.

Triton is easy for me to get, and it certainly makes my hatchery fresh fish eat instantly. Todd Overton and I have discussed fish food over the last 8-10 years, and he said Cargill Triton was currently the best bang for the buck. I'm also content with Cargill until I can see 5,6,7 years worth of results that change my thoughts as well. Cargill's Triton fish food is aimed squarely at aquaculture facilities, and I feel like it would be more prevalent if they a distribution network like Purina. Having said that, Cargill also makes TSC's branded fish food, and it's nutritional numbers are much lower than the Triton line. That's why TSC's Sportman's Choice line is so much cheaper. Less steak, more potatoes.

jpsdad, no I cannot, I was only referencing a comment someone made on another thread, saying the ingredients were listed as "animal and plant-based protein" or something like that. I cannot confirm nor deny the fish meal content in Triton, if any. In aquaculture, does the source of the protein matter? I'm curious.

FireIsHot, yeah it seems that way, but it also seems like it's a regional thing. Unless you're in TX (near Overton's) or want a pallet, you're probably better off with Purina/AquaMax, which I can get shipped to my local TSC and pick it up for less than $50 per 50-pound bag. It would be $79 to ship a single bag of Triton to my front door, and I don't believe TSC can order it, which would be nice.

As I mentioned earlier, I think it may. Perhaps this would limit the conversion. I would think 100% dehydrated ground fish would have the best conversion of any possible feed. Perhaps higher proportions of dried fish are healthier rations.

IMHO, adding the fish instead of other acceptable cost effective protien alternatives adds no relevant value. Though it may improve conversion ... The cost of conversion cannot be improved by using fish instead of alternatives, for example. Unless one is providing all the sustenance over a full lifetime (like Richmond Mill's lake) I don't think it makes much a difference for health either. In most recreational water ... Feed is supplemental where most of the food is provided by the pond.

I would just say ... Don't take for granted that Cargill competitors use fish instead ... They may still use similar sources for some .. Or even the bulk of their feed's protein. Most producers are not talking about the proportion of ingredients. They are meeting their label requirements of protein and lipids and reserve the right to adjust formulations.

I consider the aquaculture focus of cost efficient conversion to be a great plus for Cargill. They know their customers are monitoring their feed and will go elsewhere if it under performs. Recreational users neither have the means, incentive, nor conditions in their ponds to appropriately quantify the metrics. So I see the feed as completely legit riding on the coattails of the aquaculture industry embracing it.

I’d be curious to see if there’s any science behind the difference between animal-based, fish-based and plant-based protein sources in aquaculture. For humans, fish, eggs, poultry, and meat all are considered “complete“ sources of protein because they contain all of the essential amino acids that we need on a daily basis. Things like nuts, lentils and beans are considered “incomplete” sources of protein because they’re lacking one or more essential amino acids.

I think whether your fish food is fish-based or animal-based doesn’t matter as much as it is for animal-based versus plant-based. Your protein is only as good as the amino acids it has in it. Whether that’s true for fish, I’m not sure.

I agree with much of what you said above.

Probably what differentiates one food from another is more about what's there that isn't needed or isn't good to eat. When it comes to predator fish, nothing could be better than the food it normally eats. It hard to argue that there could be anything in fish that is harmful or unneeded for predator fish. The nutrition profile of dried fish should very nearly be a perfect match to the nutritional needs of predator fish particularly, but possibly also for other fish as well. TP utilize plant based proteins very effectively but my hunch is that they could more efficiently metabolize dried fish.

Here is Greg Grimes' presentation on his feed study.

Http://lakework.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Bluegill-Feed-Trials.pdf

Thanks for that! Interesting stuff. While a small sample size, I find it interesting that AquaMax came out on top, even over a higher protein feed.

You are most welcome Steve_. Perhaps the difference is Aquamax's proportion of fishmeal. I don't know for sure but it's great to see that you noticed that juicy tidbit. Good observation and review.