Some of yall were comparing the price of fhm versus feeding bagged food. If I am going to feed either by hand or use a auto feeder do I not even need fhm? Do you still recommend stocking them in the very beginning and then just use prepared later? Don't want to get too confused. I stay that way enough.

There are probably a ton of variables that can get you confused as to wether or not you need them, or it warrants them.

Simply put, you could stock 2 dozen FHM and give them enough time, will become tens of thousands, or millions? You cant get that kind of return anywhere else. Initial 5.00, and get enough feed for other fish that if you had to replace with pellets would be ... wow.

I think some info that others will need to give you an accurate answer are;
What is your stocking schedule?
What are you going to stock?

I think if I was starting again, I would go with FHM and BNM. I've read a few places BNM are also prolific and may be easier to sustain a polulation over time.

I am going to try to get BNM going next summer. Anybody see a downside?

Are you starting with a clean slate? If so, fatheads are simply a tool to give your forage base a nice bump in the beginning. Stocking them in established waters is basically a waste of time. They're eaten right away and are not usually given a chance to reproduce which is the fathead's greatest quality. They multiply quickly.

My understanding is they are kind of a "starter" fish. If you have LMB eventually the LMB YOY will wipe them out. So eventually they pretty much go away. But there is a time when you stock your first fingerling LMB that there will be a void in the food chain as the BG may not have produced enough young yet. That might be particularly true the closer the timing is between stocking BG and LMB. So the FHM offer the newly stocked LMB an easy to catch prey for their early growth and take pressure off the early BG reproduction.

Not an expert. That is just my understanding from the reading i have done. They are a cheap early source of protein that turns early pond resources into bass food.

Think of FHM like fatwood - great to get things going - but you wouldn't feed a fireplace with them - instant combustion.

Some FHM are fine in the beginning, but have your stocking strategy in place with other forage sources appropriate to your goals. Shiner species, minnow species, crayfish, shad, BG and RES...all are useful tools depending on your goals for the fishery. Start there, and we can help provide direction on a stocking plan for forage and predator species.

Cody or Travis can better elaborate on the bluntnose minnows, but they get bigger and are more elusive than fatheads, so, in theory, they’ll last longer than fatheads. They are far more suited to waters without apex predators, like either bass species. They flourish in waters where yellow perch are the goal species.

Spotfin shiners is another species to consider in this scenario.

That's good to know. YP are my fish of choice in my pond. Bass, BG and CC are put and take for me.

This conversation sounds familiar, Bill.

Yep!

Bill, if you expect LMB to be a put and take, better be durn sure you can "take" them all before they pull off a spawn, or make durn sure you only stock single sex (if you can actually do that). If not, you'll never be able to "take" them all. Same with BG.

Flame, making the choice between FHM and pellets will depend on your pocketbook, your schedule, and the fish that you stock.

It also depends on your goals for the pond, and how fast you want the fish to grow.

If no fatheads are planned (and no other small forage fish planned in their place), then here's what you should consider:
1) Your fish that you stock have to be feed trained.
2) You have to feed 'em by hand EVERY day, at the same time, and you should plan on feeding multiple times a day.
3) If you can't do #2, you better buy the best, most reliable feeder you can find - which to me means a Texas Hunter feeder.
4) You have to manage your pond the first year or two like an aquaculture facility - roughly 90% of the food the fish get will be in the form or fish pellets.
5) You'll really need to monitor the fish growth closely and adjust the amount of food according to growth that is seen.

If you stock fatheads or other small forage fish and let the population expand before stocking the predators then you don't *have to* feed pellets at all, again depending on your goals and how fast you want the fish to grow.

When the majority of us are talking about feeding fish pellets, we are talking about supplementally feeding the fish, not making the pellets the main food source in the pond.

Take my personal pond for example, and the LMB that are in the pond. I feed around 50# to 100# of AM600 per month when the fish are feeding well. I have a very hard time keeping a good population of Bluegills in the pond because the LMB eat a LOT of them. I can put 2,500 in the pond at 3"-4" and in a year there are few to be seen.

So, think of the FHM as the BG in a newly stocked pond. How much more food would I have to be feeding to make up for all those BG?

On the flip side, how many more BG would I need to have in the pond to feed the LMB if I wasn't feeding??

Thanks everyone. I am starting with a clean slate. This is a newly dug 2 acre pond. I am going to stock cnbg and a few res for starters. Was planning on fhm also. Probably wait till next year to stock my lmb. I will be feeding daily or as needed.

Sounds like a plan.

FHM are to get your fingerling bass growing fast or quickly to the 8"-10 size or the 1st bass spawn. Then the FHM disappear and another fish usually BG become the main forage fish. For this reason, Bob Lusk calls the BG the backbone of the fishery.

What is your pond temperature during the hottest weeks/months of the year?

If your pond is spring fed and or the hottest air temperature weather has your pond temperature 77 or lower you may consider stocking some trout.

Your bass will love you for it. They prefer the smooth, streamlined not spiny trout over spiny bluegills. My bass devour trout. Been working on some HD video from GoPro (8' visibility) of my bass immediately moving in to the trout, sometimes nudging it, and then just sucking them in with that vacuum largemouth open action!

May be just another option for you to consider as forage fish. If your water temps get too warm you can always fish them out and enjoy a tasty fish filet.

I like the idea of fatheads. They are highly prolific and, when small, also help jump start the BG.

I think it's an investment that is too cheap to ignore.

Thanks everyone, I will go with about 30 lbs. of fhm. Want my new bass to come be fat and happy!!

30 lbs of FHM into 2 acres of fertile water could result in too many FHM young over eating the food source where they are too crowded and do not grow well (stunted). For FHM farm production they suggest a maximum of 7 lbs breeder FHM per ac if pond has fertilization or feeding of fine or ground feed. Those 7 lbs of FHM in good food conditions without predation can this spring & summer easily produce 500 lbs of FHM per acre. If the pond is not fertile then expect 100-200 lb/ac.

Consider this: reduce FHM by dividing the 30 lb FHM in half to 12-14 lbs and then use the remainder money to add 16-20 lbs of golden shiners. This diversifies your forage food base. The shiners will serve as continued forage with the BG as the bass gradually eliminate the FHM. Some breeder GSH may even survive fairly long term in the pond.

Flame, my 3.5 acre pond was stocked when pond water level was approximately 1.5 acres. It was recommended to me, and stocked, in late November. We stocked 90 lbs of Fatheads to my LMB pond. Along with 3200 cnbg and 1000 res along with 300 TFS. With CB jumpers to be stocked this June. Stocked by Overtons and was later told I could add more FHM if I wanted. If comparing these recommendations, along with adjusting for pond size of 2 acres to 3.5 acres. I would think u could add more than 30 lbs of fhm if u so desire. And I am also feeding 1 sec per late afternoon with a Texas Hunter. Hope this helps

I think the difference between Bill's recommendations to Flame and Overtons to TGW1 is that in TGW1's pond had CNBG and RES stocked at the same time as the FHM. In that pond there would be predation from those fish on the YOY FHM. No predators in Flames pond.

Bill C., is that a safe assumption?

Not only are FHM an incredible early forage fish, they have been just as enjoyable as all my other fish. They are certainly the most visible of all fish. I stocked mine the same time as my RES and HBG, floated 15 pallets along the shore, and let them "get down to business." Reproduction was staggering. I could not tell any decline in population even after adding my top predators, WE and SMB. Additionally, most HBG are around 10", so I know they're preying on them as well. However, I did add 10 lbs golden shiners recently to prepare for their ultimate demise, which I've been assured will come. If you're like me, you'll probably only have a new pond once, so I really don't think you can go wrong w/an enormous initial forage base of fatheads.

FWIW That was my take as well. I followed the Bill C. method last spring with my new 1/4 acre. I only stocked about 300 FHM in April and nothing else. They were spawning everywhere by the time I stocked 75 BG 3 to 5 inch in June. Even with the BG, by end of September I had thousands and thousands of FHM.

This discussion reminds me of the Bob Lusk Stocking Strategy article in the Sept/Oct issue of PBM. The deep pocket guy versus the guy with a small budget willing to be a little patient. In this case, you can get thousands of FHM cheap if you are a little patient.

BG and RES will prey on FHM fry. The amount of predation is not well documented. Hatcheries are always eager to sell extra FHM.

I have one client that did the small budget stocking thing.

Unfortunately the fly in the ointment was a few GSF in the pond that he didn't know about. After 2 years of letting the FHM, GHS, RES and YP grow and maybe reproduce the only fish that were seen was a few FHM, a few of the adult GSH and the stocked RES/YP. Oh yeah, 1,000's of GSF...............

Bill,

I want to reintroduce fatheads and get them spawning in the trophy perch and bluegill pond. Since the fish are already established (but no bass) how many pounds should I add this spring?

(As Bill knows I have had established fatheads before the last time I drained the pond and the perch and bluegill did not wipe them out. )

Why don't guys want to stock BNM? Availability?

I suppose if I really wanted some but I've got a good source for fatheads by the pound not far from me so...

I don't know of a commercial wholesale supplier that I can use here in Indiana for anything but FHM and GSH (minnow wise).

Scott, how did the GSF out hustle ALL of the other species? They only spawn annually and it seems to me that they wouldn't have thrived to that extent and to the total detriment of the other species.

CecilB1 - For your 1/2 ac pond with pellet trained YP as the main predator the amount of FHM to stock could be 3 to 4 lbs/0.6ac (600-800@2" adults)assuming you have ample spawning substrate. Each female FHM is expected to produce 500 eggs/season (some claim 4000 eggs/season) 300-400femles X 500eggs = 150000 to 200000 fry). That should be ample fry for supplemental forage. Ideally expect at least 8% survival (abt 12000, that is 50 lbs!) going into winter 2015. Even just 5% survival is 7500 abt 35 lbs.

BillD. Bluntnose with YP as the main predator is a great addition to FHM however the big drawback is availability.

what is the spawning rate comparison with the golden shiners verses the FHM? I was thinking of adding some GS to my pond but not sure how many or what survival rate is in a new pond with no lmb till June.
I was told Goldens might thrive in my pond. I'm looking for a pond where I might get maximum growth of lmb in the shortest time if possible.

For best G.shiner production the pond should have some natural shallow (0-1ft) vegetation which is their preferred spawning habitat. G.shiner spawn only once per year but have more eggs per female than FHM. Larger g.shiner can have 10,000 eggs per year compared to FHM 500 eggs and up to 2000-4000eggs in good conditions. For supplemental forage production try 10-30 lb/ac. Number and size of predator and amount of small fish refuge play big roles in the survival of minnow/shiner fry to adults.

Dave, their mouth gape allowed them to eat the YOY of the other fish. There were no predators in the pond that would eat GSF - the SMB weren't due to be stocked for a year when the GSF were noticed. By that time they had 2 years to reproduce and grow without a predator.

Without significant bass predation GSF are a real problem fish management wise. They do make decent food for bass.

Yes, but it appears to me that they would predate on their own young without any discrimination. Ya gotta figure that about 98% of the eggs ever laid, especially in a pond environment, and fry hatched don't make it.

Dave, I have no doubt that they did, but 3 of the 4 species added to the pond have a more fusiform shape than GSF, so I'm assuming that they were more of a primary target.

You guys have me confused. If GSF predate heavily on their own spawn, then does that mean a pond with GSF only will not eventually be full of stunted GSF?

Bill, to some people all GSF are stunted. They just don't reach the max size that bluegills do. 9 inches is a trophy. However, they more than make up for it with their fighting ability. They have an attitude and are generally not shy about biting. I have a forage pond that is about 50/50 with them and BG. I don't hesitate to trap and xfer them to my larger pond.

Hey Dave,

Trophy is in the eyes of the pondmeister. I stocked some PS in my pond. Can't wait to catch one of those 7 inch monsters!

Bill D., all unmanaged ponds will "stunt" eventually. A pond can only support a maximum weight of living organisms at any given time. For illustration purposes, say your pond can support 1000 pounds and holds 2, 500# fish that spawn....the spawn can't gain weight unless the parents lose weight, therefore, they all stunt. Each spawn creates more, smaller fish when a BOW is at it's maximum carrying capacity.

i want some but haven't located any close to me yet

fishmn - here is a distribution map for the BNM in SD. Check these streams or tributaries for these minnows. They readily enter baited fish traps especially pre and post spawn periods.
http://www.sdstate.edu/nrm/gap/fishes/upload/Bluntnose-Minnow-Map.pdf

Bill, I wish I could stock PS. Another one(of the many) is longear.

I know what you mean Dave. I stocked the PS because I remember catching them when I was a kid wandering the back waters of the Flat Rock River down in Indiana. Prettiest native fish I have ever seen. Longear would be a great addition! Dangit man! Now I need another pond!

Thank you much Bill Cody. I trap some of the streams but only find fatheads and shiners. I will have to look closer though.

Interestingly enough, they are native to my area.

USGS map

The lateral line of a bluntnose minnow runs from its head to tail, ending in a black spot that makes them distinguishable from the fathead minnow. Reference Wikipedia The bluntnose is very ubiquitous, and may be the most common freshwater fish in the Eastern U.S

At one time I may have actually had the opportunity to stock some BNM and did not know it. In this thread Ye old fish truck I got 40 or 50 minnows in what was supposed to be pure RES. They looked like FHM but something about them just looked different. That and they were bigger than any FHM I had ever seen in my pond. Bigger than the adult FHM in spawning colors. So I was afraid to put them in my pond, not knowing what they might be. That and since I already had tons of FHM already spawning I did not need to take the chance. But in retrospect, now I believe they might have been BNM.

I did put them in my son's pond and my daughter's pond, along with all the other hybrids and whatever I could not positively ID as RES. (Both their ponds already were going to be contaminated with trash fish anyway and so was not too worried if they were some other form of minnow).

Anyway, had I known BNM were good to have, were normal for my area, and could have ID'd them for sure, I would have put them in my forage pond. Now I would not mind having some.

Guys,

I had this post in another thread and moved it to this one. Better fit I think.....

A lot of you know I have new 1/4 acre pond in Northern Illinois.

Quick current status,

I have 6 SMB probably 10 inches by now and 1 LMB probably 8. The 75 BG 3 to 5 inches I stocked last spring pulled off a small spawn last fall. I stocked a 100 PS last fall 2 to 3 inch and 10 lbs FHM.

Now the question:

Last fall I also stocked 50 plus 5 to 7 inch YP. My hope is some will pull off a spawn this spring around April. I was thinking I would stock 10 or 15 pounds of FHM in March. Good idea? Bad idea?

Couple questions.

Are you planning on feeding fish feed pellets?

Did your original 10# of FHM spawn?

I stocked 30# FHM in 3 acres 2013, but they were put in in March and no bass till November of same year. I had FHM multiple spawn and gazillions of FHM fry. They became so thick in schools I started to wonder if FHM could overpopulate a pond. Still had a good population (but much thinner) going into this fall.

If your original 10# did not do the trick on a quarter acre and you do not have tons of FHM, I question what another batch would do for you. Some fish food might be a better investment. When the water warms back up in spring that is.

Soon after your SMB spawn (if they do), any FHM will be toast when the fingerling bass get after them.

Not an expert, just my opinion.

Snrub,

Sorry, I did a poor job of explaining.

In April 2014 I stocked around 300 FHM and they started spawning almost immediately. In June I stocked the BG. By the fall I had 1000s of FHM and the BG had also produced a small spawn. This is when the YP and PS were stocked. The bass were put in around September. Concerned that the existing FHM would not be enough forage to get the YP and the bass thru the winter, 10 lbs of FHM were added as a temporary “crutch” for this first winter. If you figure the 50+ YP could easily consume 5 lbs of FHM or more per month just by themselves, I am guessing I will not have many FHM left come March. My thought on stocking FHM in March is to insure the YP have enough forage to be in good condition for spawning. As FHM start spawning in relatively cold water, I am hoping there will be some leftover from the March stocking to get off a few spawns and take some pressure off the new YP spawn. I expect the FHM to disappear from the food chain.


Longer term…I expect a good spawn from the BG this spring. I am hoping the PS (if any survive predation this winter) will perhaps have a small spawn in the fall. Once I establish vegetation in the spring, I am hoping to find BNM and SFS to stock as additional, hopefully more sustainable forage than FHM.

The hatchery where I got the YP was not certain the YP were pellet trained. I will be feeding pellets to the SF and the CC when the water warms.

So the question is……. is stocking 10 or 15 lbs of FHM in March a good idea, unnecessary or is there a downside I am not seeing?

Bill D.

Ok, Way beyond my scope of knowledge, but my thought is 15# of FHM is a pretty small amount of money compared to the investment you have in your other fish. So if it were me and I was in doubt................ probably would do it. Only down side is what the FHM cost.

You could skip taking your wife out to a nice dinner and movie next week end and cover that cost. I'm sure she will understand if you explain it to her that is for the benefit of the fish.

With the top line bass predators in the pond, and lack of weed cover, it will be difficult to establish the smaller prey species.

You could either yank out the LMB and as many SMB as soon as possible, then restock the SMB once you know the minnow population was established. If not, you probably can count on the majority of the stocked minnows being fast fish food.

Or stock HSB instead of the SMB. Then if the lepomis and YP seem to be getting out of hand, then stock some SMB, or more HSB. In that small of a pond you might have a hard time keeping the predator/prey balance without a lot of intensive catch and keep. Then ony the actively biting fish are kept, leaving the more closed mouthed ones in the pond........

Thanks for the input Scott.

The pond will be seeing many changes this spring/summer. Size and depth will both be increased. Vegetation will be planted. Additional rock piles will be added and crawfish will be introduced. The current "plan" is to remove any bass 14 inches or larger. I have had mixed inputs from folks here at PBF as to whether the SMB will spawn in my pond so that is one more unknown for me. Right or wrong, I think I need to maintain some form of top line predator. I think you are right that HSB would be a good choice if the SMB get out of control. The hatchery I have been using nearby does not have HSB so I would need to find a source. One concern I have is that neither the SMB or HSB will have the mouth gap to control the BG and PS. Hopefully, if I maintain a population of large YP, they will help with SF control by feeding heavily on the new spawn.

All of this is what makes having a pond fun! Ya never know what's going to happen!

Bill:

It's much easier to yank out the LMB/SMB now before they spawn then after and have to play catch-up. It will be a lot less expensive and take less time to manage than if you wait until you have a problem with too many bass. Then you'll lose 2-4 years fish growth trying to get the pond back in balance.

I think you will have a hard time getting the forage base established with them in the pond.

If I remove all bass early spring, is there a concern that by September I will have a pond filled to capacity with 2 to 4 inch BG and possibly PS and no predators large enough to control them? I am assuming a 6 to 8 inch YP can't eat a SF over 2 inches or so in size and will probably target their own spawn or any minnow species I introduce first anyway.

Edit: Maybe this is what's confusing me. If I called up the IL DNR and had them stock the pond, they would have brought BG, LMB and CC. In that scenario, how do they keep the bass from overpopulating? My pond is kind of the same mix except I have YP thrown in too.

Bill, where do FHM, GSH or BNM fit in the Illinios DNR stocking recommendations?

Thanks Scott,

I really appreciate you working thru this with me!

Yeah, I know. From what I've read the DNR says don't stock FHM. I saw no mention of other minnows at all.

Unfortunately. I started stocking my pond before I found PBF so I made a mistake or two early. The biggest might be not establishing vegetation first. So I'm stuck with leave the bass and have a heck of a time trying to establish some kind of minnow population or try to take the bass out and risk being over run by SF. Catch 22. Do you see a third option? Maybe try to get vegetation established and then try for a minnow of some kind.

I also discussed with TJ the options of 1)Fishing out the SMB and YP, add a few more LMB and just make it a traditional warm fish pond. 2) Raising minnows in a mini pond and putting them in the main pond when I need forage.

I guess I could also just nuke everything and start over but I hate to kill my first fish.

I think that since the pond is small, and HSB are relatively easy to get, even in larger sizes (talk to Rex), I'd remove the LMB and SMB, get the forage base established, then put the predators back in. You'd be suprised at how many fish you can remove with a seine or fyke net in a smaller BOW if the BG get outta hand. I haven't caught a bass in a fyke net, so to remove them, it's angling or electro shock.

You might not catch all the bass, but even at that, it would be much easier to get the forage base established. If the bass are in there, it's almost impossible to get the forage base established after the fact.

I can tell you from experience, even stocking a LOT of minnows won't get them established if you don't have the cover for them to hide in if there are SMB in the pond.

A client has YP and SMB in the pond, with minimal weed cover, there was maybe 10% coverage and no hard cover in the pond besides 3-4 root balls. 1 ac pond, FHM and GSH were stocked at 50% the recommended rate, then let breed for a year. 60 SMB were stocked, and within a year the FHM were gone. Next year 50# of FHM were hand sorted and stocked, and within a year those were gone too. RW of the SMB that are 12"-14" in that pond is as low as mid 70% now. The goal for this year is to remove low RW SMB to hopefully let the forage base build back up, and add more hard cover to the pond.

Say you get the pond renovated by June. It will take the plants at least a year to get established, and the bass will be chowing down on the forage in the meantime. Next year they will be large enough to spawn (if not this year) and the forage base will still not be established, and the YOY forage will take a huge hit.

Don't forget that during the winter up here the plants die back and don't provide a lot of cover for the forage to hide in. Yes, the bass slow down eating, but they still eat all winter long.

In my pond, I have problems with cover. Not enough due to fluctuating water levels. LMB have a field day eating forage in a virtual bathtub. I've put in more than 2500 culled BG from another pond that were 2"-4" long in late October just to try and shore up the BG forage and there were virtually no BG to be seen the next Spring. Granted, I had about 200# of LMB in the pond at that time, but that just goes to show how many BG LMB can eat.

With the availability of larger HSB, SMB, LMB and with your smaller pond, I don't think I'd be too concerned with stunting BG. Those can be removed with a Fyke Net if needed. You'd probably be spending the cost of a fyke net in minnows trying to get the forage base established if the bass in the pond get outta hand.

Thanks Scott,

I appreciate you patience!

I will target the bass and remove as many as possible. Not a total loss. I like bass sandwiches!

Bill