I had a successful LMB spawn in the pond. Males are already guarding there fry. Been wanting to try this. I have a fish tank already, ready. I just scooped up about 200 LMB fry. I am slowly aclimating them to the aquarium water. I have a baby tank inside the aquarium as to sort of crowd them. The little baby cage is about 8 inches square, you think this crowds them enough? Any tips? I have no idea if it will work. One of the fish guys said I had a better chance if there a little bigger but then there hard to catch. Any tip or tricks would be great. I have regular aquarium baby food, I also have the krill I could pulverize.
PS my pond is totally ugly with FA. scale of 1-10 its a 10.
Based on (successful) experiences feeding/feed training BG, GSF, and RES, here are my recommendations for feeds (available where aquarium supplies are found - pet stores, Walmart, etc.) to try:
Freeze-Dried Bloodworms
F.D. Baby Shrimp (quite similar to krill)
F.D. Krill
Daphnia (may be needed for very small fry???)
and of course small, live worms and bugs.
I suggest trying the following progression:
1. Natural feed (sinking).
2. Floating natural feed that later sinks (Krill is good for this).
3. Floating pellets.
I have had best luck switching gradually between the above groups, but you are likely to have to deny them food they like to get them to move to the next level.
Good Luck and report back, pass or fail. I have never started with fish so small - only 1"-1.5" fingerlings and bigger.
P.S. I'm interested to see how much cannibalism you see.
P.P.S. Bill Cody has a different method that is at least as likely to succeed, if you don't mind doing terrible things to worms in a blender.
OK thanks, These frys cant be more then a few days old. I dont see much of a yoke sack and there swimming freely. I just added some of the baby food from the pet store. It floats they didnt seem very interested, a few maybe got some. I think I can soak this stuff and make it sink, it nothing more then powder. I am not beyond putting worms in the blender or a bluegill for that matter if it works. I read a artical just before and they talked about canabalizm to. First if I canget them eating and growing a little then i got that to worry about. The artical said they eat rofters and plankton at this age so maybe they wont even make it. They made it a few hours so the switch to the aquarium water didnt kill them... over the first hurtle..
this was the food I bought. I just crushed up some FD krill also, tommarrow I will blen up some worms.
Joey, Getting the larval bass to eat nonliving food will be a challenge, but since you have some experience with raising aquarium fish you just might be successful. Typically LMB are feed trained at 1.25"-2".
Early Life Fish Terminology (Young Of Year, YOY). Since you collected your LMB from a school that was guarded by the male the young were past the yolk larvae (prolarval) stage and were considered to be postlarvae (postlarva) or frequently called post yolk-sac larvae. When LMB larvae leave the nest they are at or beyond the swim up stage (0.5") and no yolk material is present - postlarvae. Once they develop a full complement of fins including any associated spines AND all the fin fold has disappeared they are called juveniles. Fish culturists often use these terms. Fry - fish up to the time when the yolk sac has been absorbed. Advanced fry - end of fry stage to one inch long. Fingerlings - term based on length - sometimes placed in size groups #1 = 1-1.9", #2 = 2-2.9", #3 = 3-3.9" and #4 = 4-4.9", etc. Juvenile - a fish in-between larvae and adult. Young - means a fish of the young-of-the year or a member of the 0 age group or the period from hatching to Jan 1.
I suggest that you move the "baby tank" into a small aquarium (2-5gal or similar container or wide mouthed fish bowl) so you can easily aerate the entire water column to a point that it produces a noticable rolling current throughout the tank/bowl. You will only need to increase the amount of stronger current during the actual feeding process/training. During nonfeeding periods just a very gentle aeration or none would be necessary. Try to feed several times a day, maybe every 2-4 hrs. The circulating current will keep the wetted powdered food in suspension so it appears active or alive to the larvae. If it appears alive or moving they are more apt to accept it.
Be sure to siphon the tank bottom daily to remove uneaten food. This will hopefully reduce the chances of water quality deterioration. Also do frequent partial water changes daily or every 2 days to maintain water quality while the larvae are in the small tank. Once you see the larvae accepting food then in a couple days you can probably move them back into a larger tank.
Try pulverizing the krill or other dried natural foods you have. Also try "blending up" an earthworm or some fish flesh to add with the powder to make it wet. I doubt very much that the larval LMB will accept floating powder from the water surface. Your best chance for limited success is to wet the food and try to keep it in suspension for 5 to 10 min at least during feeding times.
I have never worked with feeding game fish this small but have raised some zebra danios from eggs. I am considering trying to raise a few larval yellow perch to juvenile stage (full complement of fins). Let me know about your success rate and I may try it with a few perch. I was going to put my perch fry in a wide mouthed gallon jar and try to feed train them in it. I can easily get the water rolling in a gallon jar. I was going to use powdered krill and an earthworm "juice" as first foods.
OK here is the short term feedback on the situation. Thank you Bill for the info, your right these guys must have just came out of the yoke stage, there about 1/2 inch long. They are just getting there color but all there features and fins are there and there good little swimmers.
Here is what I did, the first feeding I sprinkled a little powder food on the top but they wernt very interested. Just a few min ago I mixed the powder and the pulverized krill and picked up a pinch and rubbed it together under the water between my fingers. I stepped back and watched them, some definatly looked like they ate something, I could be wrong not sure but then my bass fishing experiance told me to shut the light. As soon as I turned the light out the bass imediatly went to the bottom and started picking at the bottom so I assume it was specks of food.....
I dont have many options to move them around. I have a 20 gallon tank with 2 small filters, then in that is where I put the baby pen. There should be pretty good filtration but no real strong water movement more of a gentel movement. I could prob do something to increase the movement during feeding.
So that is the short range report. I will get back and post something more tomarrow. Also gonna make a food brew mixing your and Theos suggestions.
Theo and Bill,
I have carp eggs and carp meat along with a few trout in the freezer you think any of these might work in the blender mix?
Early morning feeding if powder and Krill. It surely looks like some ate some. Hard to really tell there so small.
Also looking better at them Bill, all there fins dont look like there all there.
That sounds like worth trying.
OK here is the MIX I made. They actually look to me like some are eating.
just about equil parts of each.
Carp meat, Carp Eggs, FD Krill, FD grass shrimp, Aquamax, 5 worms and water.
Dont be drinking any frozen drinks I might make with the BLENDER... hehehe
Please don't post a picture of the feed.
Joey,
You are on the right path. If increasing the current is not an option then more frequent real small feedings should also work. The problem with more frequent feeding will be the degredation of water quality and you will have to pay more attention to water quality and more frequent water changes.
Using your methods and considering the real small size of fish you are training, and the lack of prior domestication of the parents, if you get 20-30% of them feed trained you did good.
Bill a little discovery. Its along the lines of what you said about moving the water to make the feed seem alive. Some food was laying on the bottom, which is a very fine netting. I wanted to clear the food out of the baby pen so I swooshed the pen back and forth, stiring up to food, most went out but a lot stayed in the pen. I definatly saw some fry eating. Most stay in the school but some you see nipping things. I cant see what there eating but it odviously has to bits of food. Weather there actually eating it is a mystery. Impossable to really see good but the pics give you a idea of what I am trying.
So far I feel pretty good.. time will tell.
I took the Mix I made and took a old ice tray and froze the whole tray with half full cubes of feed, now I will put it in a ziplock and take a cube out when I need it. Hopefully I do need it.
Moving food items should make a positive difference at increasing the number of larvae eating food particles. The ones you see "nipping" or displaying obvious feeding behavior are no doubt feeding. As you introduce food it may help to swirl the water as you dispense the food to make it move and swirl around as if it is swimming. It will not take very long to figure out which ones are eating because they will be getting bigger. You may also notice the largest ones eating the smallest ones.
If you do this again I recommend that you eliminate the gravel from the tank bottom. It contributes to increased poor water quality by collecting food items and manure. Accumulations of all types of waste materials in the intestitial areas make daily bottom siphoning less efficient. The more waste you can keep out of the tank the better the water quality stays. Wastes as they decompose produce ammonia - a killer of fish.
Quick update.
There definatly eating. Weather or not all of them are is impossable to know. Several died, not many though. I think they got caught between the netting. Turning the light off definatly helps but they do eat when its on. Last night I tryed a pinch of the store bought powder and they ate that alone. A few already look bigger then the rest and there getting more color to them.
I am wondering(I know it still to early to know for sure) I am wondering if by taking them this young did sort of wipe out there instinks to only eat live food? I know its a built in thing for bass but since there so young they really dont know anything else yet, might work out? Still to early to make those statements yet but I was thinking maybe?
PS Bill, When you start a new aquarium a lot of time the fish die, the reason is because the good bacteria is not formed yet in the rocks and in the filters. The amonia and excess food etc actually feeds the good bacteria. The entire cycle takes almost a month, within that cycle there are a few dangerious times, there are a few spikes that are real bad then the bacteria starts to eat the amonia and things level off. I thought a aquarium without rocks was not a good idea. Maybe because of the load of feed training and the amount of excess food, maybe the bacteria cant handle the load, I am not sure yet.
This aquarium should have the good bacteia cultures aready alive and working. I had some catfish in there when the tank was bran new and they overlaoded it, when the first spike happened they got stressed but were OK (I knew they were doomed) when the second spike came which is the deadly one they all died. This was over 2 weeks into the cycle so right after this part is when things level off and becomes good.
I never wanted to believe everyone about cycling a tank but it does happen and it is violent on fish.
If this dont work, next time I will try it with no rocks.
I wouldnt mind trying this with bluegill, and with catfish larve also, would be cool haveing 3 pens sort of a baby incubator.
Joey - You are right about the ammonia spikes. A good exernal filtration system can level out the spikes. Rotating disk filters also help reduce ammonia. If you keep the waste food and manure siphoned out of the tank, spikes can be minimized. Spikes happen when the bacteria bloom as the feed on the organics of the system.
Your way with gravel may be a method that allows more room for error on a small scale. I have not talked to enough culturists to get a good comparison of both methods. Recirculating aquaculture systems (RAS) never use gravel in the bottom of the tanks. In those systems the bacteria are allowed to colonize on high efficiency trickling style (air-water exchange) filters with very high surface surface area to volume ratios. Those filters are able to handle much higher ammonia levels than bottom gravel and even undergravel filters. I have seen some of these miniture scale rotating disk RAS filters that are designed to hang on the side of an aquarium.
Based on my educational academic and practical experiences with animal behavior I don't think you will eliminate the instinct of the bass to feed on live foods in one generation, even if you feed train them at the larval stage. Instinct in wild animals is deeply geneticially and behaviorly rooted. To eliminate it, it would take several to many generations. Instinct is why Roy got mauled in LasVagas by the tiger.
Your thought about moving the water insprired me to go out and by a new filter. I oversized it, got a Hagen 150 which is good for a 30 gallon tank, I have a 20. I am going to move the baby pen in front of the flow when its feeding time. and out of the flow during other time. I bought some bio stones which is basically pouris ceramic and added that to the power filter for the bacteria to grow also. Doing this allows about 30% more bacterial/bio filtration on top of what the gravel bacteria provides. I bought 2 baby catfish to eat up the small debree from the feed training pen. There just baby cory catfish, figured the smaller the better. This should get interesting because the larva bass are eating, there is no doubt. The second hurtle... now to see if they start growing and the water quality stays good.
If you have large numbers of larvae take to feed things could get crowded fast in the tank. You may have to do some reduction in numbers based on the number of survivors. Watch for 1 or 2 very fast growers, they may be cannnibals. In that case you will not have to be concerned about having too many survivors.
I have had several more die. Still not a alarming number but some are dieing. I dont think there eating each other yet, but sounds like they prob will soon enough...
Joey,
Those dying are starving to death. Survivors will be those accepting your food offerings. It will be interesting to see how many you end up with after another 10 days.
Only lost a few more threw today. As little as they are they know when its feeding time. I would say 1/4 of them feed as soon as I add the mix they go right to eating. Some attack, they spit things and go for diffrnt bits of food. I would say 3/4 of them are eating good, the rest dont look like there growing. Been siphoning the crud at the bottom of the pen with a airline tube once a day. So far so good, like you said it will be interesting within the next 10 days or so.
Cant tell what there actually picking out but they like the mix I made of Carp meat, Carp eggs, FD Krill, FD Grass shrimp, Aquamax, 5 worms. Blened to a paste.
My guess is they are selecting the meatier items and rejecting the firmer nonfleshy items such as bony and shell fragments. The main trick to feed training is to get the fish to accept an item that is not moving or alive. Then it is an easy conversion to soft pellets then a transition to firmer, drier, floating pellets.
Common carp eggs are a good "trainer" diet for largemouth bass fry, but not for newly hatched individuals. In some previous work, LMB fry up to 9 mm all died when fed carp eggs, presumably because their mouths could not handle the egg size. Once LMB fry reach 10 mm and up, they can be trained onto carp eggs pretty easily (at least 50% survival). Don't keep them on the carp eggs too long, as the eggs apparently don't have the full nutrition needed by the LMB fry. Hopefully the other items in your diet will help with nutrition, and then try to get them switched to a pelleted diet as quickly as possible as Bill suggested.
Hi Dave, Like you said these guys are to small to eat a carp egg. I put the carp eggs into the mix then they went into the blender so some are still whole but most are chopped. I am definatly seeing them die off but there are a good number seem to doing ok.
I kinda wish I had fish aready living in the tank so I knew it was a good enviroment to start. I think its OK but with these tiny LMB I am sure water quality is critical. Still out of about 300 I lost I would say 50 in the first 4 days. Some get killed getting sqooshed between the net when I move it, they are very fragile. I bet at least 15 got sqooshed.
Joey -- we used to take a square (maybe 4 or 5 inches on a side) of plastic window screen and use that to scoop and move the small bass. Worked better than a net, at least to get a count on the fish we had moved
Joey, Bill Cody mentions cannibalism. Watch for it. I've seen two 1.5 inch LMB side by side. Then there was one with the tail of the other sticking out of its mouth. Even in a bathtub or larger sized container, you will see a reduction in numbers without any morts. The guy that I talked to about it called the cannibals "jumpers". Due to agressiveness, they will usually turn out to be the ones that outgrow the others. He also called them "Hogouts". It's Mama Nature practicing selectivism.
Good point, Dave. We used to sort our largemouth bass in an attempt to keep them in groups of similar size. Everyone thought that the cannibals were bigger simply because they ate the other fish. I cut open quite a few, and guess what? They did eat the other fish, but they also were packed with fish food! Mother Nature, as you said. They were just aggressive fish, in general.
But according to the 16 year TPW LMB study they don't necessarily end up the biggest fish for a number of reasons. Often in the fish world being overly aggressive gets you killed (as in a snack for larger fish).
Eric and Dave, I have trouble understanding how they can survive when they bite off more than they can chew.
Often they don't. I have a pic somewhere showing a 2.5 in LMB trying to eat a 1.5 in LMB. They both died.
Had a lot die yesterday. Not sure what is going on. I am suspecting water quality. I went fishing all day so I am not sure exactly what happened but lost almost half of them. Might have even been they went to long with no food. I fed the remaining this morning and they seen ok but who know what today will bring. The outlook looks grim.
Joey - I think increased deaths on April 18 are normal and due to starvation of those not eating. Your total death count when plottted on a graph will have somewhat of a bell shaped curve. Fish death rate currently is probably in the high part of be curve. As long as you are regularly making water changes your water quality should remain okay. The main thing to moitor for is ammonia. Are you making any tests for ammonia? If you are making regular water changes, I don't think they would be needed based on your set up and the size & number of fish.
This is a great thread! Bill and Dr. Willis have great advice and insight. Joey- keep us posted on the progress. This is something many of us can learn a lot about.
I lost a lot yesterday but today not many more died. I did a 20% water change last night just incase and will do another tonight. Well see, I dont feel real good like I did the first few days. Hopefully if I can get a few dozen past this next few day they may be ok. If not I will try this again when I see ball of new Larve/fry. One thing that may have contributed was 2 days ago we had a bad wind storm and my power was off for 10 hours, the water temp in the tank dropped and there was no filtration all that time, could have had something to do with it.
Joey, it's a tough job. Consider the tiny % of LMB fry that live through the age period you're training yours at - if a small # live AND are pellet trained, I would consider that a HUGE success, especially for a first attempt.
Joey, I firmly agree with Theo. LMB are probably very difficult to feed train at the larval stage which is why commercial operations start with small fingerlings. Larger start size leads to higher success rates. If you can get any trained consider you first attempt a success. PLus it is a learning experience and it is also teaching us.
I think they were extreamly fragile at this age. I bet when I took them they were a week old, 2 weeks the most. There are still a bunch so we see what happens. If it fails I could try to net a few a little older in a month or so.
Joey, I recall you estimating 200 fry when you began. How many would you guess are left at this point? Good luck.
There is only about 2 dozen. I dont think they had a real fair chance because I lost power for 10 hours and I do think this had something to do with them dieing off.
Power loss is something I dread right now. If I lose aeration for more than an hour or two, I'll have a 100 gallons of dead Redears.
Theo - You might have to have some emergency aeration drills for the family to teach them how to take turns hand splashing the water. I can see the rolling of eyes now. :rolleyes: Dad's lost it!
I was just glad the RES got fed and watered instead of filleted and eaten while I was in Arlington.
They would not try to reach in that tub but once.
On second thought they might try to reach in a second time with a hemostat to retrieve their missing finger from the first attempt. Those RES are
mean.
Well I am down to 6. i am doing a 10% water change every day now. The 6 that are left, 4 are growing and are double the size when I put them in, there are 2 that dont looks so good.
Not sure what went wrong. I am sure like you all said some died of starvation but more then that I am questioning water quality and the fact that I lost power for 10 hours. I had the water at 76 degrees and it was very cold that day and it dropped almost 10 degrees. That puts a hurting on grown fish so I imagine it did a number on the babies.
I am waiting to see more fry so I can try it again with a new batch.
Hopefully I can get the remaining 6 threw the next few days, then hopefully they got a good chance.
Joey, As long as the remaining few are eating they should live. Expect the 2 poor looking fish to be sticking out the mouth of one or two of the faster growing fish.
Its down to 2 baby bass. I dont know whats wrong. I have to deem the first attemt a failor.
I went out and bought 2 pregnant guppies, I bought them for a few reasons. I want to see if the tanks water is good enough to support babys and if the guppys survive and then the babys do also I can consider the water good enough for the bass. If the guppies make it, I will try with more bass larve.
I believe the 10 hours of power loss doomed the bass. They get very stressed and get ick with a drop in temp that fast. I am guessing this had a lot to do with it, along with there being so young ontop of the fact it is hard to do anyways.
And then there were none. A total failor.
Not exacty sure the reason but it didnt work and they were eating.
Will make some ajustments let the tank settle out and try again, after I see the baby guppys doing ok
I have my suspisions, 1 the mass drop in temp during the power failor, 2 the tank is not settled yet and the huge excess food of feed training overloaded things enough to kill the baby fish.
The school of hard knocks is a good teacher. The experience wasn't a total failure, you learned a few things.
Good point, Bill. Even when we think we've failed, we've at least learned.
Joey- I hope you try it again soon. I've learned a lot from this thread, and I'm sure you can do it successfully the more you try it.
Joey were you using tap water or pond water for your tank? If you were using tap water then try again with water from your pond for startup and for partial changeouts. I am curious if it will make a difference.
Was using water from the tap, but its well water. Basically the same ground water/springs that feeds the pond.
I will try it again. I have loads of fry/larve right now in the pond. Waiting for 2 things. One to see if the baby guppies survive and letting the larve bass get just a tad bigger.
This batch I took were maybe one or two days older then swim up stage. But I really point the finger at the power failor. will try again.
Another option is to collect zooplankton daily from your pond and add it to the "holding pen". It will improve survival rate, but this method is feeding live food and your goal is feed training them. I think eventually you will discover what a lot of earlier testers have learned, best success rate for feed training LMB is to start with fingerlings of 1.2"-2".
Throw you some goldfish in that aquarium, they are recommended to startup an aquarium. They are the nastiest fish u can have and they cycle the tank faster than any other fish!! Plus they are very tough and can survive very well in a tank going through the cycling process so that it keeps gettin the bacteria needed from their waste. The gravel in the bottom are very important for this process also. I buy the round smooth landscaping rocks at lowes for my aquarium. The light brown looking ones, and rinse them then put em in the aquarium. I've seen goldfish survive in a new tank with tapwater. Goodluck, I may try this also in the near future, when will the bass be the ideal 1-1.5" size that was recommended???