I had a new pond that was dammed in August of 2005, that has never filled up. I just had a report by an environmental company that said it should of filled up by April of 2006. It is a 2 acre pond with an average depth of nine feet and 40 acres of drainage. The closest it has ever come to full pool is 42 inches from the top of the overflow.

I was given an estimate to line the pond with ESS-13, including draining and reseeding for $63,000. The pond cost $50,000 to build.

The pond is the focal point for a house I plan to build so I have to fix it one way or the other. I can not sell the property or start building until this is resolved.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Im new at this and im in the same situation. But I would say this, If you can drain it and find the leak and fix it. you havent lost much time.
It kind of matters if your trying to raise blue ribbon bass. I have a problem with seeping under the dam + drought conditions here in Bama. Down about 30 inches. We have put about 2 1/2 tons of bentonite in and will be getting more but finding the leak is kinda hard ya know. But its all good, my wife says im sexy with a shovel.

Here's a start, Mark.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000044;p=1

Welcome to the forum.

Bruce

The dam is not leaking. I think our soil is very porous. Not sandy though. I am wondering if i should try the ESS, try an alternative or wait a year to see if the pond seals itself.

I just wish I knew for sure what the fix is. The builder is very experienced and says to be patient but the water budget from the consulting firm indicates the pond will always be deficient.

I hate to lose another year before i stock it.

Mark,

Ouch!! That one hurts to just read about. A couple of questions and then suggestions on possible other options:

1) have you looked thoroughly for signs below the dam for an area that shows signs of leaking? If the leak is specific to one area, then your problem can be reduced somewhat.

2) during construction were there any areas noted that had springs, gravel, or poor soil, i.e. insufficient clay? Were soil tests performed?

At the price quoted to you for ESS-13, perhaps you would want to consider getting quotes on a couple of other options:

1) a pond liner. This would also be expensive but perhaps have a higher probability of success than ESS-13.

2) bring in good clay to seal the dam and other suspect areas.

I think I would first do everything I could to find out what is causing the leak then pursue appropriate remedial actions. If a total drain and re-seal is required, then consider all options, weigh the risks and the costs involved, and make the best decision you can with available data.

I wish you success in fixing what must be a painful problem.

Thanks for the reply. There was good clay in the creek bottom that was saved for the dam and attachments. There are alot of springs and rocks in the site. I feel confident that the dam is not leaking and spread 1110lbs. of bentonite into the water already.

This is a real dilemma as I have seeded the shallow end for waterfowl and i can't stock fish until I know if I have to drain it or not. I have already lost one season for fish and may lose 2.

Your springs are most likely your problem. If that is your problem the Ess-13 will never work. The problem with a spring is they have a natural level according to how much pressure they have. This level will change with seasonal aquifer variation. If your spillway is higher than that level, water will go into the spring when the hydrostatic pressure is greater than the level of the spring. If and that is a big IF that is the problem, the only way to fix it is to drain and seal the whole pond with clay or a liner. Both are a very expensive propositions.

Meadowlark and PFF offer good advice and thoughts. Start with ML's list. Were you actively involved and aware of the soils compositions to some degree? Are we talking clay? In other words, past the springs, are you comfortable that there was sufficient clay in the soil to bind and create at "soil liner"? As noted above, the dam should be the next suspect considered. If you are comfortable with the seal, then PFF's notes on springs could be scary-true. Are there any other ponds in the area? Can you be a good (nosey) neighbor and introduce yourself?
$60 some-odd K might drain a pond and haul in alot of clay, if needed. Depends how far you gotta go to get it. I can't imagine that seeding is a notable portion of that cost...? Would this be an awkward time to offer wishes of "welcome" to the PB forum?...hope not...they're genuine.
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edit: what empiracal evidence do you have that it is not filling up (besides expert advice that it should be full)? Are you measuring rainfall, depth changes, calculating evaporation...stuff like that?

Mark-Brettski brings up a very good point. You should keep very accurate records of your rainfall, pond water level and evaporation amounts in your area. I know it would be hard to wait another year but they say the first couple of years that water seeps into newly covered ground. With time and records you could see if the leak or seep is slowing down. In the meantime you could stock some fathead minnows and a few BG to start your forage base.

Good replies and thanks for the welcome. The springs are mainly outside the pond and flow into it. I don't remember any in the bottom per se.

The dam is very well constructed but there are wet areas below it where it attaches. The builder claims that these were springs that he could not get behind the dam. i believe him for the most part. A very honest man that I have known for years. He could be wrong though.

There was very good marine clay that he saved during excavation for the dam. There is also a 2 acre pond downstream of me that is perfect. It lies on the same stream that begins on my property.

I had a water budget done by an enviromental firm that concludes my pond will not be very good without a liner( ESS 13) which they will very happy to install and guarantee- 1 year for. The report indicates the pond should have filled last April.

There are not a lot of experts I can find to help me decide what to do. This pond business is alot of speculation and guesswork. I do have the soil types from a map but have not paid for a true geotechnical(?) report.

This is all rural land and all the ponds I see seem to be fine. We just had 14 inches of rain this month to put us 5 inches ahead of normal.

This is a very tricky problem I have.

As far as experts, the guy who built this pond might be one.

Who kows who is right. I just hate to gamble on waiting another year before I can stock it. It was as low as 60" from the top of the overflow before all the rain this month. It has risen to 42" and is not moving. The spring into it is flowing the best I have seen it in 2 years.

However, we are going into a heat wave with temps near 100 for the next few days so I am sure it will drop some.

a)...sake of argument; is the flow of water behind the dam seemingly enough to the amount you might expect to keep your pond low if it were leaking?
b) Was a core cut (keyway) before construction of the dam? If yes, specifics of dimensions and construction. If no, specifics of grade preparation for dam construction.
c) How does your contractor explain the situation (not trying to be a wiseguy...seriously. Let's continue with the idea that he is pond-knowledgeable and honest. He should have good input.)
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-edit; d) What is your County NRCS's take on it?

Brettski,

To me the amount of water outside the dam is enough to lower the pond when it is dry, which it has been until the first week of July. That is what got me going. That and a fish stocker that claims to be a pond expert told me it was leaking when he came to advise me on stocking.

The dam was created by excavating the perimeter and some bottom and bulilding a 20' dam across a small creek in a little natural valley. The base of the dam is probably 45' if I remember right. The builder had a diagram with all the dimensions and the different types of materials he used.

I did have someone from the county out but he was not a soil or pond expert per se. I am having trouble finding any one with extensive pond constrution knowledge.

hmmmm,
So, while we are here, let's focus on the dam construction.
a) Was the soil at the damsite tested for suitability...borings or holes with the excavator?
b) You say "The dam was created by excavating the perimeter and some bottom". Can you elaborate? Are you referring to a core? Are you familiar with coring or cutting a keyway? How deep, how wide?
c) Was the creek running during construction? If yes, how was the flow stopped or routed during this period?

Mark,

Sorry for your problems. 2 things pop into my head. One, an old creek bed often has sand and gravel layered with clay. There could be a broad sand layer running under the dam. Digging into the outside dam face could expose the problem.

Second, does the water seem to rise to a certain level and stop? If so, there may be a sand layer right at the water's edge. Look for crevices, holes, and gaps running along the water line and just below. If you locate any sand layers, it's possible you could dig them out and pack them with 2' of clay for a real cheap fix. Best of luck!

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001226;p=5

I really appreciate your time on this.

a)No testing was done. The excavtor was happy that we had a lot of marine clay in the creekbed.

b)The core was the marine clay from the site. I am not sure about what a keyway is. The dam is around 45 feet at the bottom and is 20-22 feet tall with an 8 foot or so road across the top. The creek is a wet weather creek that eminates from springs at the top of the pond. He worked around it for the most part as he built the pond last summer and we were in a drought period.

We just had the largest rainfall since Hurricane Agnes in 1972 with a lot of flooding. That cured our drought and put our YTD precip at +5". I have 2 acres of pond with an average depth of 9'. I thought that shoud have added more than 18" of water. But I am not a pond expert.

Robinson,

It sounds like you had the same problem. Did you get it fixed?

MB

Bobad,

We don't really have sand here. It is rocky loam. The report puts them in the Class B hydrologic group which has a moderately low runoff potential.

The CN value is 58, whatever taht is.

Mark, you post does ring a bell, in fact almost sounds dead on similar. I am planning to do what TN hillbilly suggested in August or September, in our dryest of months, and compact it whenever the moisture content gets right. You will not find any better sealer than clay. Compare everything, but remember not to get fancy, if clay is an option. If using clay is economically feasible, it is your best solution.

I am told that it would take 500 loads of clay to do the entire pond and depending on where we had to get it, it could cost alot more than the $15k for ESS-13. They also said that bentomat and rubber would be much more expensive.

The company that quoted me says they have never had a failure with a pond or wetland using the ESS-13.

Mark,

I guess I'm skeptical by nature, but saying they are hitting 100% makes me wonder. I find it hard to imagine someone in the pond leak fixing business saying they have never had a failure. Since they are saying that, I would ask for a 100% Guarantee against any leaks. Are they willing to offer that guarantee?

I'm having trouble understanding why using clay isn't a viable alternative... you wrote, "There was very good marine clay that he saved during excavation for the dam." If good clay is available at the site, seems like that is a viable alternative.

If contemplating spending that much money, I think I would go for a second opinion..or even third opinion. Just my thoughts.

I would love another opinion. I can't seem to find anyone else around here that specializes in this though. I think they meant they have never had a failure using ESS-13.

The excavator said there was good clay but the engineer says that there is a lack of clay in this area and they don't know if they can find enough to put down a 24" base that a proper job would require. Hence, the ESS-13 solution that they will guarantee.

They will not gaurantee it 100% forever because they did not do the original construction and it would require an ESS-13 supervisor during the whole process.

I wish I could find someone around here for another opinion! That is why I am on this message board. I am looking for other opinions before I go off and spend a ton of money.

Everyone has been really helpful. Thanks!

Mark, did you take a "diary" of pics during construction? Perhaps if you had a few during initial stages, some of the experts here could evaluate how and if you dam was cored (built w/ a keyway) which in turn might eliminate some seepage possibilities/theories.

I have a "bedrock" pond built over a seasonal creek bed as well. Prior to renovation, the pond would fill, and stay full, in rainy season. After rains quit, it would rapidly drain out to a certain level, then evaporate the rest of the way. at first i thought it a dam problem, but realized it was hydraulic head (depth of water) exerted on the bedrock substrate. water was driven through fractures and daylighting just downstream of dam. my only affordable fix was to import clay, and combine with native clay i had on property to seal particularly the deepest parts of pond (where hyd. head was greatest). now 8-mos. post renovation, the pond is holding more water than it has in over 10 years, albeit evaporating alot more than i want, but creek is dry downstream of pond......the type of bedrock we have here weathers in such a way that clays dominate the fracture zones, however, in the creek bed, the bedrock was much less weathered, and fractures void of clays......which is where it seeped.......not along the sides in the weathered bedrock, but in the creek channel in the fresh bedrock.

i dont know if any of this helps, but perhaps sharing a similar "bedrock" pond story may spur some ideas.

that may be it! The creek below the dam stays wet and by 200 yards has an excellent flow. I bet I have the same problem.

Therefore I have to line it to work? Is there plausible chance it will seal itself? I know it is impossible to say but if there is a 50-50 chance I may be willing to wait.

well it may be....one of the great enigmas in the world of leaky ponds.......whar's it leakin?

its like everything else, you have to operate w/ the philosophy of "multiple working hypotheses", and start to cull them out one by one. i would still survey your sides as suggested by bobad, inquire w/ you contractor as suggested by Brettski et.al., review your pics and post them here or provide a link (at a slightly reduced file size please for those dinosaurs like me still on dial-up). that would be really cool if the problem was isolated to say just the creek channel, but it could be endemic to your entire pond bottom.

in my case, waiting only made the problem worse as each year the hydraulic conductivity increased. the silt and muck accumulation did nothing to slow the seepage....so for me it was a complete overhaul when the pond was dry. if i had an additional 10k i could have completely covered the bottom in clay, but i chose to give it a shot only partially covered since the pond did hold year round water when we first moved up here (~11 yrs ago). by 1998, the pond could no longer hold out, and it got worse every year until last year when i finally pulled the trigger on one of the biggest projects of my life.

of course the longer you wait ( and i know its hard to do!!!) the more money you can save to fix it right if that is your goal. wish i could provide more specific help but as stated earlier in the thread, you'll have to develop the most logical theory, and weigh the scope/schedule/cost benefits of multiple solutions. if you had a local source of clay and were reasonably sure you had bedrock seepage, the best solution would be drain, clay, compact, re-fill. keep us posted.

Matt, you might want to get the ball rolling. If it is seeping into an underground streambed and the back of the dam is wet, it may be affecting the integrity of the dam. I'm not sure how you would check on that.

I have a creek that goes underground in dry weather. It emerges again but never makes it much further. The spring just won't support it this time of year.

I think I would dig a shallow trench the length of the dam, about 5-6 feet from the front face. I think 2-3 feet deep (a foot at a time!) would probably intercept any seepage that is coming to the surface farther down the creek bed. If you hit water, then simply re-doing the dam deeper would probably take care of the problem.

The ground below the dam is real wet. I am calling the builder to verify the measurements as Jim Troglio told me the dam may not be wide enough to hold that volume of water.

Mark,
When you say the core was constructed of clay, do you mean that a ditch or slot was cut down below the grade at the centerline of the dam. Are we talking the same "core" here? In a nutshell: did he use the dozer to cut a trench from one end of the proposed dam to the other end, perhaps 4 - 8 feet deep, may be 1 - 2 dozer blades wide? This is coring a dam (or cutting a keyway). Without beating this any further because we ARE talking about the same thing, is this what happened prior to building up the 20 ft tall dam?

Brettski,

Thanks for your reply. I did not see that. The pond was excavated from a small stream valley with a lot of fall from back to front as we are in hilly country.

The dam was going to be really high so I doubt(?) he dug down alot deeper at the base of the dam. This is what I think you mean by coring-a 4 to 8 foot trench basically parrallel to the dam at the base- not perpindicular to the dam along the streambed?

These replies have been great. I wish some of you guys lived closer to me!

OK, your next required reading may be this thread (if you haven't already been there). There is alot of good input and advice from knowledgeable folk, including Bob Lusk, Pond Boss extraordinaire.
"core help" thead

Brettski,

Now my head is swimming. I did not see that coring at my pond like in your pics. The questions:

1) drain, dig a core, hope to find more clay on the property and compact it

2) expand the dam

3) pay for the ESS13

4) lose another year waiting for the pond to fill like my excavator says?

BTW, your pond looked great- how did it turn out?

...one of my (many) blessings in the quest for pond-apolooza was to find this super group of knowledgeable and helpful pondmeisters BEFORE water. I am still knee-deep in pushin' dirt, tho there is light at the end of my tunnel. My latest collection of progress reports have morph'd within the thread: Principal Spillway thread
Thanx for the kudos...now back to the issue at hand. Don't freak out yet about the core. Right now, it is meant to be educational as you rationalize. I think we all want to eliminate some particular facet of the engineering and shrink the pool of suspects. Your reaction to not seeing a true core cut is not a disaster by any means...or...it could be a problem. Now, the concern lies with the integrity of the soil below the dam; all the existing soil that was undisturbed. If you gleaned some of the good input from the core thread, you realize that cutting a core is not necessary when the existing soil that will be below the dam, and supporting it, is known to be of a clay content and plasticity index that is suitable. This is where soil borings or samplings would have been helpful before construction. In my mind, I am suspicious (and would like to eliminate) the bond between the bottom of the dam and grade as a suspect for seepage. You will want to take some of this thought process and share it with your contractor for answers and input. How do we know that the integrity of the subsoil below the dam was impervious?
Lastly, as a possible test, you could consider going directly behind the dam and take a couple of borings near or at the bottom of the valley to see what may be considered a representative sampling of what lies some 30 or 40 feet upstream. (my contractor does this with the backhoe...dig straight down and examine the lifts as they come up. He will pinch off a ribbon about 3 inches long without breaking from it's weight and shoot me a smile...this is good) If it is good, consistent clayey soil and your contractor followed good practice by removing the topsoil at the damsite and then scarifying the clayey subsoil for a mechanical bond, finally compacting it (tell us how he did this and with what equipment) then you might feel confident in eliminating this suspect from your dead pool.

The company that just did the engineering study and proposal for the ESS-13 said that core sampling by a geotechnical firm could be done but it would be very expensive.

Now that the pond is built and 2/3 full I think it is a mute point. I don't remeber any compaction equipment other than the smallish dozer the builder used.

He was there for almost 3 months and he felt the number of trips from the back of the pond to the dam at the front with the clay and soil was enough compaction.

From what I have learned here I am leaning towards porous soil, combimed with poor compaction and possibly a dam that is too small has allowed water to leave the pond and reenter downstream into the creek.

So, what is the most cost efective means of correcting this? If I have to drain it and use ESS-13, which I am assured will work, should I also have the dam added onto?

With the ESS-13 they remove 2 feet of dirt from the entire pond bottom, mix with the ESS and then replace. At this point I could insist and make sure that they use a sheepsfoot roller and thoroughly compact the bottom.

If this scenario is correct - problem solved for $63k more. If not then the dam is the problem and I won't know until I do the ESS.

Mark- have you been to the ESS-13 website? I suggest you look it over and contact someone there direct.

http://www.seepagecontrol.com/

Mark, a leaky dam would be the best thing you could hope for. Assuming the terrain in front of the dam is suitable, you can key it and build it up against the existing dam face without losing a drop of water. You end up with a nice wide dam to boot, which is needed anyway if it's a tall dam as you indicate. If the dam is the culprit, your dozer guy should donate at least some of the labor to fix it.

Mark, I get in trouble for being blunt here. Forget you fish for a few years. It is the least of your concerns now. You dam likely used up your best materials. It probably is not leaking, itself. Water is either going below it because it is not keyed. However, your best soils were in the floor, so let's hope it is not going under it. Most likely, due to the poor soils you describe, it is going around the dam and bypassing it entirely. You ES whatever may work. Clay is a better option. Keep in mind, you pond could very well seal itself entirely in a year or two.

Good luck.

BB, Robinson,

You are both right. I need to ask these questions to the builder now that I have been educated on this forum.

As far as the fish, I can afford to wait. However, the pond is the focal point for a custom home I want to build and you drive across the dam and up a small hill to the house which looks out over the pond.

It will be a beautiful setting with a southwest view over the pond with moutains in the background(Shenandoah Nat Park). Right now though, it is an eyesore with partially submerged trees and stumps( cut and layed down).

This is to be our "dreamhome"- thus the impatience as I do not want to cmmit to house construction until( unless) I get this damn pond resolved.

This is to be our "dreamhome"- thus the impatience as I do not want to cmmit to house construction until( unless) I get this damn pond resolved. [/QB][/QUOTE]


It's dammed pond. One of our more humorless and Naziesque moderators might just edit you for that one. :p

A Freudian slip. i meant dam/pond like you said.

Know da feelin bro.

Good news. talked to the excavator and he too is concerned. He is taking a machine to the pond and dig behind the dam to see what he can find. There is a lot to be said for hiring someone you feel is honest and will stand behind their work. His conversation was that this pond should work, he's worked with worse materials and he will figure it out. No mention of money or excuses.

Brettski, he did core it out til it was over the cab and way back into the sidehills- with clay. That's what has him puzzled. His dad would stop by and measure the compaction and said it was 98.

I guess we just start by eliminating the most likely problem and move from there.

Mark, grab yourself your first gold star. You're learnin' to walk the walk, talk the talk. The boss, Donna-ski, and I always joke about learnin' on the fly (and man, we do alot of it)..."we'll start gettin' good at it when we're done".
Guys like you and me take the route of hiring the man for this level and volume of dirt-work. This, in of itself, is not so difficult...the tough part is finding someone with the ability, integrity, and honesty to do it for us the way we want it done. There are others on this forum that have not been so fortunate when they walked a mile in our muddy shoes.
Keep it comin', man. You may not know it, but you are teaching right now. If not a veteran, surely another pond-dreamer.

Amen Mark......

I'm just glad that the builder recognizes that there is something amiss and wants to help instead of deny and run. That is huge when you are talking these kinds of dollars. This is a positive step for sure.

In retrospect I would not build a pond without a plan, an engineering and soil report. Sinking tons of money into a project like this and hoping for the desired results is foolish.

Good luck Mark. Please keep us updated!

Mark,

That is really great news...and the best resource you can get IMO is a local expert person with those characteristics. Like BOBAD said, let us all know how this turns out. I've got a feeling its going to be positive.

I will keep you posted. To show this excavator's character he told me last night " i would feel awful if you got any one else to work on my pond". He told his wife when he went to check it this weekend that going on my property without calling was OK because "it is still my pond until it fills".

It's refreshing to find people that still have that sense of integrity and pride in their work.

Rural America !!! Wouldn't be anywhere else!!

An update. The excavator has dug out the head of the spring and filled it with gravel and PVC to direct the spring into the pond.

Below the dam he has dug a hole in the stream and has placed a pump and tubing to pump that water back into the pond. The hope is to fill it at least and then determine whether the pond is leaking or not?

With 100 degree days and no rain it may take a couple months to find anything out. It is a process of elimination now.

i will keep you all posted.

8:00 am air temp 60 degrees – near surface water 62 degrees.
LMB
HSB
RES
TAF/CNBG
CC











Me too:

Very nice, George and Mrs. G! George--looks like you've got yourself two keepers in each of those first few photos.

The quality of ALL your fish never ceases to amaze me.

awlright george!!

are we not blessed to have wive's w/ good fishin instincts?

dittos w/ davatsa, beautiful fish, i'm gonna show my BG these pics for inspiration...and maybe one day....... when they grow up.....

Great wife and great gills and great fishing...

Mind boggling luck, sir.

Oh yeah, maybe luck has nothing to do with it.

Outstanding, george!


"TAF"?

Texas/Arkansas/Florida?

There you go!

George, That is what Gail and I are hoping for; still fishing together at age 59!

Fish get active around here when the surface water temp is in the area of 60 degrees. Sadly the surface water temps here are 32-33 degrees....... mostly ice.

George
AS GOOD AS IT GETS
period