Pond Boss Forums Thread Like Summary - Local recommendations against SMB

Based on excellent info provided here, I now have a great SMB/YP pond with both species spawning. Our local ag university and DNR have both published recommendations against stocking SMB in small ponds due to the need for cold water, and the later info says they will not reproduce in ponds. I have contacted fisheries folks from both organizations and they both consider my pond an "outlier" (without any further investigation or a visit on their part). Have the pond professionals here ever had any luck getting university or government recommendations to stop perpetuating this myth? Seems like a lot more folks could be enjoying SMB ponds. Are you aware of any papers in fishery science journals that catalog how common these erroneous recommendations are? I have quite a bit of experience publishing scientific papers in my area of biology, but am not familiar with the fisheries field or journals. However, I would certainly be willing to help a fisheries professional from the Pond Boss family prepare such a manuscript with the intention of persuading those in official positions at universities and government agencies to better represent updated info on SMB as a good pond fish in the Midwest (when LMB and BG can be excluded). Any interest? Do those in other states have similar outdated recommendations? Are their any well respected fishery science journals that do not have page charges for those without funding?

Neighbor caught another nice one out of of out SMB pond today (>18in).

I have addressed this with the State of Kansas as well. Being in the unique position I am, having recruitment of smallies every year, AND having our supervisors out and fishing my pond I can say that they are preaching from the 1957 thought process, that's what they were taught.
Most state personnel have their own gut feelings and have been taught to follow state "beliefs".. I've been lucky enough to spend many nights in groups of these guys/gals during WAE egg-take missions and I've blasted holes in most all of their theories about "you can or can't do that".
One of the best days was when 1 of our region 1 Bio's called me and made the decision to stock a 2.2a community lake with SMB.
Recruitment and growth has been fantastic-another notch in the post for us.
Then, after telling this same biologist for 2 years that the next state record yp would be caught from my pond, he had to swallow his beliefs and come verify the catch last Feb.
There is a "wall" between what they are taught and the private sector, and like Dr.Luke says, politics play a huge role in what they do, bigger than most would ever believe.
Most agencies will also bow their neck at private sector reports, at least that's been my experience, but again, in my case, I get opportunity to have a captive audience frequently and am close enough with some of these guys that I pull no punches.
Another thing I might mention is we work with Iowa during our egg-take to get them some "early hatch", as we obtain eggs from Iowa for a "Late hatch", and these guys are no different in their thought process than my own state guys-and I don't pull any punches with them either, and I can say with certainty that they too are restrained from personal opinion when in a public setting. I have used some of these opportunities to discuss pond management and share experiences of fellow PB'ers here-in other states. They clam up when I go into private sector talk, very evident what they are taught to believe, which is why my respect for Bob Lusk, and what he has achieved is 80000% more clear to me on how Lusk broke a barrier in this industry. He turned the "we don't recommend that" into "By God, I'll show you how it's done"..
For my 2 cents, I would remind the department that they are using data older than the folks implementing it. I suspect I know how far it will go, but ya gotta speak your mind and show them proof.

I explain why the myth of SMB in ponds and warm water was created in Part 1 of 5 for my SMB article series in PB magazine. If we are going to write an authoritative article that is believable and the information is to be trusted we should have a good literature reference list citing appropriate SMB literature.

A portion of Part 1 “Growing the Best Smallies” Is copied here:

Busting The Myth
Most all common literature says smallies are typically found and thought to do best in continually cool, deep, rocky northern or midwestern lakes or cool water streams. Another reference says smallies prefer clear, rocky lakes with a minimum of 25-30 feet deep and water temperatures no more than 80 degrees F. Nahh! That's a myth.

Smallmouth bass actually are native to the northern parts of North America that have areas of cooler water with basins lined with boulders, rocks and various sizes of gravel. Smallmouth bass also grow and thrive in many streams of various sizes. Smallies have also been stocked by agencies and citizens in many states of the United States. Water temperatures of some of the mid-western and southern slow, moving streams where smallies thrive are regularly in the mid to high 80 degree F and sometimes even 90 degrees during dog days of summer.

Why the myth?
A classic early study of northern lakes with native smallies concluded these bass prefer to stay in cooler water along deeper rocky ledges. In reality, smallies were forced to compete with other more dominate predators, largemouth bass, who staked their claim to prime shallower habitat spots. Thus, the traditional "preferred habitat areas" of deep, cooler water often reported in early literature were probably the second habitat of choice (out of necessity) for smallies due to competition from largemouth and walleye (Ripley and Sura 1999). In those cases, smallies probably had to inhabit other spots or areas due to bullying from other, more aggressive fish, such as largemouth bass. In the early studies, competitors likely forced smallmouth out of warmer, food-rich shallow areas and to survive, they had to take up residence in cooler deeper locations, places less preferred by largemouth bass. Researchers of those early studies (Dendy 1948, Norris Lake, TN), thus concluded the colder, deeper spots where smallmouth were most commonly found were preferred habitats.

Truth is, smallmouth often are found in cool water, but function quite well in warm, shallow, weedy water when other predator sparse or not present. In scientific literature, laboratory studies have shown smallmouth bass will survive in summer water temperatures of 90-92 F. So, if your pond is not located in the southernmost areas of the United States and water temperatures do not stay above 95 F for weeks at a time, smallies will likely do just fine in your pond or lake.

Contrary to popular belief, smallies do not need extensive rocky, cool water habitats to thrive. They will grow well and reproduce in ponds where largemouth flourish. Personally, I have raised thriving numbers of smallmouth bass up to 20" long that successfully reproduced annually and grew well in a small, seven-foot-deep, clay-bottomed pond where water temperatures in mid-summer frequently reached low 90s. In my region of northwest Ohio, smallmouth do quite well year after year in numerous small ponds where there are no largemouth bass.


Growing smallies is not always just a matter of adding them to your pond. Pond Boss editor and fisheries biologist, Bob Lusk, as an experiment, stocked smallies in one of his small North Texas ponds. The smallmouth went into the 3/4 acre pond, stocked at the same time with walleye, just for fun. Lusk stocked 12, 6-8 inch smallmouth with 13 similar size walleye. The pond was freshly filled with well water and fish were stocked in November, 2003 along with fingerling bluegill sunfish. The next spring, Lusk added some extra channel catfish he had and began to feed the fish with an automatic feeder. A seine survey in November, 2004 showed both smallmouth and walleye survived a relatively "cool" Texas summer. But, since then, not one smallmouth or walleye has been seen. But, the channel cat are thriving and largemouth bass infiltrated from ponds upstream during a minor flood event. However, results and survival of smallmouth and walleye were poor. I am not sure why they did not survive, but I don't think it was due to high water temperatures.

In Phoenix, Arizona, a member of the Pond Boss Forum and avid Pond Boss subscriber, Aaron Matos, has smallies growing and reproducing in a small 0.17 acre, shallow pond in his backyard. It's not just any pond, though. He has a wetland filtration system and the plastic-lined pond is loaded with rocks and boulders strategically placed along shelves and ridges. Great habitat, but even with all the "perfect" habitat, water temperatures of this pond were measured to be 92 to 95 F when air temperatures are frequently 100 F or more. Phoenix has an average 21 days a year where air temps reach 110 F. His water is often more like bath water than smallmouth bass water. Yet they thrive.

As an in-between species in a mixed community of fish, smallies will function the best they can and will inhabit areas not already occupied by more dominant fish. A couple of studies have shown smallies do not compete well with bluegills, green sunfish or bullheads. In these situations, the bigger the pond and the more diverse the structures, then the more areas will be available for smallies to hang out and survive. When largemouth are present, the largemouths will dominate and bully smallies into locating to other less desirable areas of the pond. Dr. Dave Willis, fisheries biologist from South Dakota, and numerous others including this author have found that when combined with largemouth, the smallie population always gradually declines without regular supplemental stocking of large juveniles or adults.

By themselves as the dominant predator in the pond, smallies will occupy the same type of shallow habitat and locations preferred by largemouth and some other panfish. Thus, many ponds able to grow largemouth will grow smallies, especially if competition with other, more aggressive fish is low.

Smallmouth bass have been reported to have much less inclination to school than largemouth (Mraz 1964d). However, I (and others) have watched juvenile smallmouth in small ponds hunt in packs of 5-10 fish as they crowd and attack small forage fish herded by the bass into shallow water. Many good bass anglers know that numerous smallies can be caught from one small area. In winter, smallies will congregate in schools in deeper water areas.

Myth Circle
Temperature myths about smallies requiring clear, cool, rocky bottom habitats have been prolonged by combined writings of outdoor writers and authors of fishery journals (Ripley and Sura 1999). Early fishing and semi-pro fishery writers referred only to basic early research in their articles. Wildlife and Natural Resource agencies often repeated the temperature myths found in fishery-related books and magazines.

Even today, angling writers, who have not carefully reviewed detailed scientific literature regarding temperature tolerances of smallmouth bass are still referencing the old mythical literature. Thus, the circle of errors about temperature myths for smallies are still commonly repeated. So, what has been written up to now in many articles may not tell the whole story about this fascinating fish.

This is a quick draft intro of the paper (or short communication) that I am thinking of:

"Smallmouth bass in small ponds: misunderstood and maligned

Smallmouth bass (Micropterus dolomieu) can thrive and spawn in Midwestern ponds with fairly warm water if the more commonly recommended largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides) and bluegill sunfish (Lepomis macrochirus) are excluded. Counter to the outdated official recommendations from some universities and state government agencies, smallmouth bass do not require cold water, but rather are outcompeted by these more commonly stocked species in small warm-water ponds. Like channel catfish (Ictalurus punctatus)(also commonly recommended for small ponds), smallmouth bass do need specialized spawning structures, although smallmouth bass require simple rock or masonry spawning structures, rather than the cavity spawning structures required for channel catfish.

Here we provide examples of outdated recommendations against stocking smallmouth bass in Midwestern ponds, provide updated recommendations for successful use of smallmouth bass in ponds, and document the successful stocking of smallmouth bass in small warm-water ponds."



-- As a non-expert, I would need to collaborate with someone who is.

I wonder if maybe someone from the Texas agency might be persuaded to talk with the folks in Indiana and/or Michigan. Texas allows tilapia, though they insist on the Mozambique strain which dies at 52F. Maybe the northern state agencies would listen to another state's agency when they won't listen to private pond owners.

I have a male SMB guarding a nest under the dock now May 11. A few other coarse rocky areas have been cleaned for nest sites. I will try to get a water temp tomorrow. The books say spawning begins when water temps stabilize at 60.0F.

Bill, I spent a couple of hours watching a male oriented vertically, moving debris as he was creating a nesting area a few days ago-never seen this before. 2 different females were working him while he was working.. he would occasionally just bump the female near the head if she got too close, just a tap and she would move away.
I spent an hour and a half too long watching that but a flat spot turned into a fairly large dish in that 2 hrs..

esshup - I think Spawning times for SMB & LMB can overlap somewhat but most good Fisheries textbooks note the spawning for SMB begins a few degrees cooler compared to LMB. Look it up on something other than the internet where opinions prevail and facts are often lacking.

I have a 1.8 acre pond on I40, 60 miles from Texas panhandle, trying to manage as a pay to fish.
Yesterday had 20 middle school students, most had never fished, I and their "Outdoor ed" teacher stayed busy teaching
property respect and bait fishing. They caught ???150-250??? RBT, YP, SMB, BG, GSF.
several 5-8" SMB, recruitment, 20-30 YP possible recruitment. Even in far SW Oklahoma.
In this day, it's how the next gen is going to learn respect.
Thank You very much, for all I've learned about ponds and fish, this last year on PB !!!

I think the resistance to using SMB is not political but rather dismissive. They already know the answer, so new information must be wrong. My hope is that publishing in a peer-reviewed scientific journal on specific outdated recommendations (with solid evidence on SMB in ponds) would be harder to ignore.

Well - I am willing to do as much of the writing as I can, but I need experts to pressure check things for technical correctness and help identify good citations to support claims. I can probably find the state extension bulletins that offer outdated recommendations along with links. I would strongly suggest we do not mention any individuals responsible. We could cite personal communication for coauthors with direct experience supporting the ineffectiveness of contacting university and state "experts" without identifying any of them specifically. I must admit that I find my interactions less than satisfactory which is part of my motivation for getting this into the scientific literature. It seems like such a paper would be a good reference for explaining the conflict between our current experience with SMB in ponds and the advice given by state officials and university extension personnel. I have published a number of papers like this within my area of expertise. Change can come slow, but it will likely be slower without advocacy.

If I may suggest... If I were tackling this, I would ask the advise of Cody and Ewest, both have written articles in a verbalization that attracts attention and both can tie references to older, less accurate data..
Ok, I added 4 cents..

As someone with a bit of experience in this area, such papers are not directed at the "agency people" but rather on the influencers of the agency people. A 1st step is to try and work with these folks to effect positive change, but when this fails, one must look past them to those that have more influence on their behavior. Its not the first or desirable approach, but rather the remaining option. As many of the posts suggest in this thread, the cooperative approach seems to have been ineffective. One can either give up or take on a more aggressive approach. So far, I am not seeing any takers from fisheries professionals here on my proposal, so if we fail, we can only blame ourselves. It takes effort and tenacity to advance science. If you want to see a recent example in my area of science, then feel free to PM me. Science advocacy is not easy.

I can better understand the 'resistance' to non-native fish species such as tilapia even with knowledge that they are supposed to expire at 50 degrees F.

But for SMB, which I think are native to most of the states of those who posted (IN, IA, MI, PA, OH, etc.), it's a shame to have that 'knowledge' pushed down a rabbit hole.

We at the PB Forum lost our VERY BEST researcher, fisheries professional, tenured professor and well published author when we lost Dr. David Willis. He would have been our best senior author for a peer reviewed paper about success of SMB in pond habitats. Dave and I separately and as co-authors had several articles in PB mag about SMB in ponds.

Dave was the co-editor along with Dr Wesley Neal (senior ed) for the Amer Fish. Soc. book titled Small Impoundment Management in North America 2012. The book chapter that relates to our SMB topic was “ Stocking Strategies for Recreational Small Impoundments” Chapter 6 p155-176 by R.A. Wright – Dept. Fisheries & Allied Aquacultures Auburn Univ. and C.E. Kraft -DNR Cornell Univ.

Chapter 6 Section 6.5.2 Smallmouth Bass Combinations has a total of six sentences. Paraphrased - “SMB in mesotrophic ponds can fill role of predator. Prey species mentioned were GSH or RES; BG not controlled. Rates or timing of stocking not well studied. Those managers following guidelines for LMB-BG have been successful.”

IMO a research type of paper would be needed to achieve a successful peer review. For a peer-reviewed paper with high credibility we are going to need a decent amount of good data in the standard scientific format of Introduction, Methods, Results with Discussion including tables, graphs and figures.

Dr Neal at Mississippi State still regularly writes a regular article in PBoss Mag. One good option would for interested PBoss members for this topic would be to help fund, in combination with the Jesse W. West Research Endowment at South Dakota State Univ., a student research project. ewest (Eric West) would know more about details of the Jessie West student endowment. Dr Neal may provide some good advice for the SMB topic.

I'd like to concentrate on the native range of SMB. Ponds in such areas could be a reservoir for seeding streams in their drainage where SMB are doing poorly due to pollution.

To take Scott’s point further, based on my personal experience SMB don’t require any special structure/substrate for successful spawning/recruitment. I have three ponds devoid of structure of any kind and have pulled successive spawns the past 3 seasons and now face a SMB population management issue. I strongly suspect appropriate rock substrate would improve egg hatching numbers significantly, however it’s not necessary.

RAH, after 5 days of digging and making phone calls to KDWP personnel, I finally got an explanation that KS is of the "OPINION" that SMB are not recommended for pond stocking because until the last 10 years, there is no research data or decent studies available that bust the myth as Bill talks about above.
The supervisor I last talked with says "we know this isn't the case, as it's been proven in general, if LMB will survive and prosper, so will SMB so we hold no official position in offering recommendations against SMB stocking"...

Beautiful fish RAH.

Thats def a nice one RAH!

Nice SMB!!!

Is there maybe something wrong with the fish's eye?

Smart, responsible people that would like the privilege to also be allowed to fish again in the future - just the kind of people you want to invite onto the property.

Neighbors like that are probably also your best defense against a$$hole trespassers!

We are really willing to share if folks just ask nicely and show some respect for the land. Hate cleaning up trash.

SMB spawn at the same time/temp that LMB spawn.