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Thread Like Summary
4CornersPuddle, catscratch, DrLuke, ewest, FishinRod, jpsdad, lmoore, Shorty, Snipe, teehjaeh57
Total Likes: 42
Original Post (Thread Starter)
#549567 06/22/2022 6:32 PM
by lmoore
lmoore
Did a search but couldn't find anything recent. Anyone familiar with or tried Orangespotted Sunifsh (Lepomis Humilis)? I found a local source of them, very interesting and cool looking sunfish so I may try them out in my little RES/YP/SMB pond that is just in it's beginning stages. I can't find much information on how prolific they are, but they apparently max out around 4 inches so I wouldn't think they would be a problem for the SMB to control once established. Probably more likely that I have a hard time keeping them around, I bet a SMB will go crazy over those colors.

https://www.iowadnr.gov/Fishing/Iow...s%20of,fins%20are%20fringed%20in%20black
Liked Replies
#549615 Jun 24th a 02:56 AM
by Shorty
Shorty
I think you should try adding the OSS and see how it goes, skip adding golden shiners. The lack of commercial availability of OSS likely means there isn't much information on how they might interact with SMB/RES/YP pond. I can tell you that a 13" SMB can easily fit a 5 1/2" RES in its mouth. If OSS can persist with LMB present then they should do fine with SMB and provide plenty of forage. I would much rather have a forage fish that doesn't get large enough to escape predation than one that can get too large. I've been waging war on large golden shiners in my SMB/RES pond for the last two years, a large GSH is a direct competitor with everything its size and smaller.
3 members like this
#549668 Jun 25th a 05:51 PM
by Bill Cody
Bill Cody
All fish have pros and cons in the pond ecosystem. There are numerous fish species that have not been intently studied as much as LMbass and BG for how these less common fish species will perform in the pond niche with other species. A lot about various fish combinations is still to be learned. As Shorty suggests stock the OSS, watch the results and be welcome to return and report your observations with the OSS in your pond. That practical research is one good way how we learn more about fish pond management.
3 members like this
#549727 Jun 27th a 07:48 PM
by Dwight
Dwight
Searching for the elusive Orange Spotted Sunfish in Minnesota.

[Linked Image from btmnet.com]
3 members like this
#549578 Jun 23rd a 12:34 AM
by jpsdad
jpsdad
lmoore,

Thinking along the same line, I asked the same question in this thread. So I didn't feel like it was totally resolved whether OSS are good for SMB. Even so, I will share a few thoughts.

OSS were indicated to be associated with above average standing weights of LMB in a survey of 42 Oklahoma ponds. All the same, it is not known whether their presence was responsible for this and it isn't know how much forage they supply. But at the very least they don't seem problematic for LMB. My hunch is that they would provide forage to SMB and make a contribution. Also, I don't think they would overpopulate or create any issues like that. They occurred in 38% (16) of the 42 ponds and averaged 14 lbs/acre standing weight with a maximum standing weight of 64 lbs/acre. Of interest ... their standing weight averaged more than Golden shiner and had maximums greater than golden shiner. So perhaps they are bit more resistant to predators? Perhaps or perhaps not enough samples.

One consideration is production over biomass. They have found a positive correlation of this ratio to the negative power of (weight at maturity). What this means is that prey that mature at small weights yield the most production relative to their biomass. Based on this metric the OSS is in the neighborhood of 2.86. Presumably a stable population with a minimum annual biomass of 40 lbs may be able to produce as much as 110 lbs of forage. Production over biomass not nearly that good for RES which metric is about .85. So 40 lbs of OSS may provide as much forage annually as 130 lbs of RES. Here we are considering the biomass low being at the time prior to spawning activity. RES will provide fishing opportunity where the OSS will not. A fair proportion of the RES production will outgrow SMB gape which reduce consumed forage weight. It's not clear to me how strongly OSS can persist with SMB but for the 38% of those 42 ponds they appeared to be strong enough to persist with LMB. So ... its an experiment ...
2 members like this
#549632 Jun 24th a 07:17 PM
by lmoore
lmoore
I’m going to put them in, I’m too late with no GSH but should be interesting either way. Thanks all for the input!
2 members like this
#549650 Jun 25th a 05:01 AM
by Snipe
Snipe
We have a small city lake near me (55 miles) that has OSS. Don't know where they came from, they were just there one year and have been a nuisance since. LMB will not control numbers because of amount of shallow water so the state stocked saugeye and has for 9 years. Got some great Saugeye, great crappie, LMB really never came back and population structure of OSS remains the same.
2 members like this
#549768 Jun 28th a 04:19 PM
by ewest
ewest
Just making a note of pertinent comments.


jpsdad
I empathize with the biologists' challenges. It's so hard to control multiple factors to meet license holder's expectations.

Snipe
I'm going to share something that was said to me about 6 months ago in my search for DNA results from different areas, from our head of fisheries in KS.. He said to me.."you are looking for something that the answer does not exist for.

FireIsHot
Grasshopper ...Take the pebble from my hand.


That is why its called pond management - not control.
There are no magic answers - just work, common sense and applied science. Even that is not always correct or the best way. There are as many different thoughts as there are people who own ponds. We just really don't know all the answers or even the right questions to ask. That is why we share this space in search of advice. It depends - carry onward!
2 members like this
#549827 Jun 29th a 11:48 PM
by jpsdad
jpsdad
Originally Posted by FishingRod
1.) Did your research indicate that OSS might thrive in poor water conditions?


Some sources note the OSS' ability to colonize marginal habitat. Perhaps harsh conditions is an environmental factor that helps OSS establish and maintain populations. OSS E values (percent of total weight) are probably inversely correlated with E values of other sunfish like bluegill. It is possible that excessive LMB standing crops are also an environmental factor that has greater effect on OSS competitors (other sunfish) than on OSS.

Originally Posted by FishingRod
2.) If yes, then might OSS be a recommendation for the people that come on the forum with small, muddy ponds and want a sunfish pond with a few LMB?


I think that would depend. I would hope that they would want to clear their water and do more. I will add that other sunfish are also successful at colonizing similar habitats (eg Warmouth & GSF). For me to recommend OSS, I would very much want to use them myself. Though I am not averse to their use, (heck they may be in more of our ponds than we realize), I think whatever forage they provide could also be provided by other forage.

One question I have is how in the heck did they show up in 38% of the ponds in that OK survey? Were people stocking them? Or did they just colonize these ponds over time?

But back to your question, my sense is that they could be stand alone forage for LMB, LMB/Crappie combinations, LMB/Lepomis Hybrid combinations. They won't do well if there are a lot of BG recruiting and so they require a commitment to numerous small predators. They are not a forage that will help a person grow trophy LMB. If I were to use them it would be to establish a forage population that could feed an abundant population of LMB. I think they could have particular promise to extend a pond's carrying capacity of LMB. BG cannot do this. BG can feed LMB and help them grow large but they aren't going expand a ponds ability to carry more LMB standing crop. So again, they can only make sense when one intends to have a lot of small LMB. I would just mention, this may not be an unreasonable goal for some people. LMB are aggressive fish that are easy and fun to catch even if limited to around 12". If community structure is not oriented toward small LMB ... I do not think OSS will compete well and their ability to sustain a population would be in question.

Finally, I don't think its a given that OSS can establish a population long term without other important factors. Shallow habitat and cover may be essential in a pond with LMB and other Lepomis. Every pond is different so everyone will get different milage.
2 members like this
#549834 Jun 30th a 03:22 AM
by Snipe
Snipe
Kansas BCP record is 22" and 4.63lbs. Woodson st lake in 1957. And beings it was 1957, I'd almost bet it was a hybrid.
2 members like this
#549831 Jun 30th a 02:10 AM
by catscratch
catscratch
Caught it out of our pond. I'm not much of a lake fisherman... ponds, creeks, and rivers are more up my alley. Of course if I had a boat I would maybe change my mind on that. I've heard a lot of good things about Milford. Does your brother live in KS?
2 members like this
#549847 Jun 30th a 11:36 AM
by catscratch
catscratch
6 spines and vertical bar pattern so I thought it was a white. I never weighed it. Took pics, measured, released for another day.

[Linked Image]
Attached Images
2 members like this
#549573 Jun 22nd a 07:39 PM
by ewest
ewest
Go here for lots of info (FishBase). look toward bottom for specific info.

https://fishbase.net.br/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?ID=3374&AT=orangespotted+sunfish
1 member likes this
#549589 Jun 23rd a 05:38 AM
by jpsdad
jpsdad
Originally Posted by Bill Cody
jps says -
Quote
RES will provide fishing opportunity where the OSS will not.
Why do you state this? Is your comment based of size of adult fish?

Yes. Few of them will grow larger than 3" and I didn't see the OP taking interest in fishing for them particularly.

But I stand corrected smile It depends. (For example, how could one argue with the grin in Theo's recently posted pic below? So maybe size doesn't take away any of the charm where the fishing opportunity is what we choose to make of it)

[Linked Image]
1 member likes this
#549620 Jun 24th a 12:55 PM
by Theo Gallus
Theo Gallus
Decent members of the forum don't use other people's photos without stating that fact, although it has become painfully obvious that you often do. Of course, if you stated "Here's a photo of Theo Gallus with a very small Bluegill", readers might wonder why you were using it in a thread about Orange Spotted Sunfish after commenting about the size of Redear Sunfish. They might conclude that you don't know the difference.
1 member likes this
#549735 Jun 27th a 10:50 PM
by jpsdad
jpsdad
Originally Posted by catscratch
Originally Posted by Dwight
Searching for the elusive Orange Spotted Sunfish in Minnesota.
How do you post pics that actually show up instead of a link? I would post more pics if I knew how to make them pop up like that. And good luck with that search boat!

catscratch, if you are using a computer ...

1. Use Full editor and then position the cursor where you want the image to show.

2. Click the image icon in the tool bar above the text and you can enter the image's link there. Provided the link is good, the image should show.

3. If you are uploading using the Attachment manager ... then after you post the first time you can click the link to get its address and then follow steps 1 & 2.
1 member likes this
#549743 Jun 28th a 02:08 AM
by Bill Cody
Bill Cody
After Snipe's reference to the KS DNR state survey of the small city lake containing OSS abundance, I withdraw my suggestion to add OSS to the pond as an option for forage fish. The example of good chance of an over population of OSS is possible especially if a fair amount of shallow water is present in the pond. Exceptions occur. Anytime one uses a nontested fish species in a pond as an experiment, they should have the possibility to relatively easily renovate the pond if or when population problems and fish balance becomes a problem.
1 member likes this
#549710 Jun 27th a 01:27 PM
by jpsdad
jpsdad
Snipe, were there any efforts made to estimate standing weights of the community members? It would be really interesting to understand what percentage of the standing crop is represented by each species in that lake.

Though LMB standing crops vary widely as a percentage of total standing crop, they seem to average between 14% and 16% of the total standing weight when many samples (from different lakes/ponds) are taken. Swingle noted that the most ponds meeting his definition of balanced had F rations (prey weight over predator weight) of 3 to 4 (which equates to 20% to 25% of the total standing crop) for the LMB/BG combination. But its not just that percentage, how many mouths comprise that percentage is also important.

The paper on the survey of 42 ponds is an amalgamation of 42 anecdotes where each one represents a unique natural system. In other words, no individual pond is representative of anything typical. There is one pond of these samples which (I think) skewed heavily the association of LMB standing weight with presence of OSS. It was pond 29 which was 21 years of age at the time of survey. It's standing crop was 650 lbs of which there were 320 lbs of LMB, 108 lbs of crappie, 71 lbs of "Other sunfishes", 146 lbs of "Course fishes", and 5 lbs of BG.

Course fishes and Other sunfishes are where individual species are not counted but lumped together. In the paper they explain which fish are lumped into these categories. RES, LES, GSF, & OSS are the other sunfishes. It is very interesting to note how "not prevelant" BG were in this pond. 5 lbs of 650 lbs gives the BG proportion less than 1% of the standing weight. This despite BG having an average of proportion of 39% of the standing weight of all ponds considered. My hunch is that this pond's "other sunfishes" were comprised mostly of the maximum noted OSS standing weight of 64 lbs/acre where the remaining 7 lbs could have been RES, GSF, and/or LES. I thinks this is a reasonable inference given that OSS were associated with above average standing weight and because BG tend to outnumber (RES, GSF, and LES and most any other water I have experience with. It isn't known whether the OSS were introduced to this pond simultaneously with BG and other sunfish, introduced first, or invaded the pond in high water events. I think the latter is definitely a possibility and if this is so then I think this suggests that OSS are particularly robust survivors for such a small fish. So this keeps with the thoughts of the biologist's hypothesis that OSS are impacting BG recruitment. It would also seem to suggest that OSS are capable of impacting recruitment of other sunfishes like RES, GSF, and LES.

Now I would mention that of all the ponds surveyed this pond ranked 3rd in At. This metric is the proportion of the standing weight of that is of harvestable size. This value for this pond was 76%. This is all the more remarkable when we consider that OSS never reach their definition of harvestable size and that a population of 64 lbs of OSS represents almost 10% of the standing weight. More than 65% of the standing weight was comprised in the predators LMB, and Crappie. Substantial proportion of the crappie must have been harvestable. So from the perspective of an LMB/Crappie pond ... the addition of OSS may be beneficial. This provides an anecdote of at least one possible eventual outcome of such a combination's interaction.
1 member likes this
#549734 Jun 27th a 10:33 PM
by jpsdad
jpsdad
I definitely agree there is no particular answer as there are so many variables. Just thought you would kick out of that anecdote as it seems to confirm the biologists' suspicion that OSS are impacting BG reproduction in the 55 acre lake. This is not something I would have suspected. I can hardly imagine a 21 year old pond with 5 lbs of BG and 71 lbs of other sunfishes (with 650 lbs total crop) but it happened. As much as anything, I did want to make the point that the reference pond probably greatly influenced the statistics including the suspected association with LMB standing weights benefitting from OSS presence. I can't say for sure, but neglecting that pond they just might have come to the opposite conclusion. That pond's standing crop of LMB was many standard deviations away from the mean so an outlier that can skew statistics.

I empathize with the biologists' challenges. It's so hard to control multiple factors to meet license holder's expectations. Even if the near impossible were achieved ... I am sure some would expect more.
1 member likes this
#549730 Jun 27th a 08:49 PM
by Snipe
Snipe
jpsdad, I'm sure I can make a call and get a population structure report the last time it was done, but it may not be the data you are looking for.
They don't make a science project out of every lake in their district because they don't have the time being jailed to 40 hr weeks.
And to be really honest, they don't care to discuss Swingle from 1950, that is almost something they want to avoid.
The target for modern state biologists is condition and number of target sport species with notations on other species present in a given sample size, whether it's a unit effort of electrofishing, fyke net or by-catch during a target species set.
Most if not all of this type of work is now done by college students and quite frankly there is much more time spent on how invasive species transfers occur compared to what percentage of the population the OSS makes up in a small city lake. The public demands legal size fish be magically put on a stringer and that's where upper management directs biologists input.
I'm going to share something that was said to me about 6 months ago in my search for DNA results from different areas, from our head of fisheries in KS.. He said to me.. "you are looking for something that the answer does not exist for".. I know what I am looking for, 75% of what I wanted to find I did. I think you are in the same place I was in that the answers you are looking for-specifically-will never be found.
1 member likes this
#549733 Jun 27th a 10:30 PM
by FireIsHot
FireIsHot
Grasshopper, that was very wise and experienced advice.

Take the pebble from my hand.
1 member likes this
#549830 Jun 30th a 01:24 AM
by jpsdad
jpsdad
Originally Posted by catscratch
Originally Posted by jpsdad
Originally Posted by catscratch
Originally Posted by Dwight
Searching for the elusive Orange Spotted Sunfish in Minnesota.
How do you post pics that actually show up instead of a link? I would post more pics if I knew how to make them pop up like that. And good luck with that search boat!

catscratch, if you are using a computer ...

1. Use Full editor and then position the cursor where you want the image to show.

2. Click the image icon in the tool bar above the text and you can enter the image's link there. Provided the link is good, the image should show.

3. If you are uploading using the Attachment manager ... then after you post the first time you can click the link to get its address and then follow steps 1 & 2.


Thanks for the reply. I post from my phone. I'll tinker with it...
[Linked Image]

So that's what a 19" crappie looks like. smile Like Dave, I don't think I have ever seen one that large. Did it come from your pond or a local reservoir? Have some good memories fishing with my brother in Milford for crappie.
1 member likes this
#549833 Jun 30th a 03:18 AM
by jpsdad
jpsdad
Well done. If that isn't a state record fish then I think it may be a Pond Boss record. I would love to catch a crappie like that some day.

My brother was stationed at Fort Riley and went to school at KSU. He lived in Manhattan until about 1997. He lives in Colorado now. There are lots a great wildlife things to do around there. Enjoyed pheasant hunting with him too.
1 member likes this
#549836 Jun 30th a 04:12 AM
by Sunil
Sunil
Originally Posted by Snipe
Kansas BCP record is 22" and 4.63lbs. Woodson st lake in 1957. And beings it was 1957, I'd almost bet it was a hybrid.


I think catscratch said it was a white crappie, although I can't find where he/she said that right now, but when I looked at the pictures, I just thought it was a huge black crappie.

Are you thinking this is a BCP or hybrid crappie?
1 member likes this
#549842 Jun 30th a 05:02 AM
by jpsdad
jpsdad
I thought it looked like a white crappie. The white crappie record in KS was 17.5" and reported to be 4.02 lbs. So did it have some sinkers stuck in it's gullet?

Whatever the case, catscratch, your fish is longer than the state record.
1 member likes this
#549835 Jun 30th a 03:31 AM
by jpsdad
jpsdad
Originally Posted by Snipe
Kansas BCP record is 22" and 4.63lbs. Woodson st lake in 1957. And beings it was 1957, I'd almost bet it was a hybrid.

Just trying to imagine what such a fish looks like.

I recall going to Springfield, MO to the bass pro shop. I think it may have been the original. Lots of fun to visit. My wife and argue whether to pay the admission to their little museum in there. Anyways, we did and they had some awesome stuff in there. One was a life sized carving (so they said) of the world record BG. My jaw just dropped. That on its own was worth the price of admission.
1 member likes this
#549851 Jun 30th a 12:46 PM
by jpsdad
jpsdad
I was just going by color, shape, and the vertical barring. From those characteristics the crappie looks like a white crappie to me. I've caught far in excess of 2000 white crappie throughout my life and fileted as many. Most very small, however.

With the spine count being 6 that should be confirmation that white crappie genes are in the fish. So how likely is it that the fish is a hybrid? I've always heard that hybrids look similar to whites but have a spine count of the black. Does this hold true? Can we eliminate it as an F1?

I would love to catch a crappie like that. It's heritage takes nothing away from it.
1 member likes this
#550070 Jul 7th a 12:39 PM
by jpsdad
jpsdad
I am uncertain. The vertical bars do show some splotchiness which would suggest that some black crappie genes are there. Body shape, barring, spine count all point to a white crappie contribution. What other characteristics should we also consider to recognize black crappie genes and be certain the features are not variation within the white crappie species?


Buck, Homer, et al
noted variation of spine counts from different ponds (and potentially 2 different crosses). One pond had 53% of the survivors sporting 6 spines. But between all ponds and all samples the hybrids with 7 spines comprised 92% of those surviving. There is also variation of spine counts within a species (though no black crappies were noted to have 6 spines). They described hybrids as looking similar to blacks as opposed to looking like whites. So the water seems kind of muddy to me.
1 member likes this
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