Pond Boss Forums Thread Like Summary - Forage Fish Preference by Season?

I am starting a new thread for this question, since I seem to keep playing "20 Questions" in other people's threads! However, my question is tangentially related to anthropic's Trophy Bass thread.

Trophy bass Catch-22?

There are frequent and detailed discussions on Pond Boss about the best way to provide the optimum forage to the main predator that is "goal" of a pond's specific management. The main predator is frequently LMB, but there are many other fish species that sit on the throne in the ponds of the forum contributors.

My question (using LMB as an example):

Is there a strong seasonal component to the forage species that a LMB consumes over the course of a year?

Further, if there is a strong seasonal component, instead of focusing our management on the forage species that provide the LMB with the bulk of their calories, would the LMB gain more weight over the course of the year, if management was focused on providing calories when the LMB are hungry but are not able to eat their daily fill?

[I will state some observations below based on my fishing experience, feel free to correct any items that are counterfactual.]

While fishing in the spring we would catch the most LMB and spotted bass in relatively shallow water. We would also sometimes catch panfish on lures much too large for them, but it indicated to me that the small forage fish were existing in the same location as the black bass - including the very large LMB.

At this same time, we would also observe crayfish feelers protruding out of the gullets of almost every single small bass.

Eventually, the black bass would move out to deeper water and we would still have some days with good success, but at that point we would catch (or feel strikes from) essentially zero small panfish while bass fishing.

As spring turned into summer, we would observe much more shad activity out in the open waters. Either jumping to get away from bass feeding our just clearing the bow of the boat.

In the fall, the black bass would move back into shallower water, but not as shallow as during the spring fishing.

Were the black bass preferentially eating panfish and crayfish in the spring because that was the optimum time to catch that prey, or because the bass were co-existing in the same water due to the bass spawning cycle?

After the bass gorge themselves on easy forage in the spring, do they have to work much harder to catch panfish and crayfish later in the year as the habits of those forage species have changed?

If those forage species are now harder to catch, do the bass then move on to shad in the summer? I am envisioning a scenario by easiest effort expended per calorie to most difficult effort as: spring BG < summer shad < summer BG.

My larger question is then, would adding a "seasonal" forage species into the gap where the bass are not gorging have a significant impact on raising trophy top predators?

For instance, adding shad (threadfin or gizzard) in a lake without them. Would that be a valuable "summer" food source?

Or how about adding tilapia in a lake without them to make a supplemental food source during the summer and a massive food source in the late fall when they begin to die off due to the temperature change?

I would appreciate any comments in this thread (no such thing as off topic), and discussions about top predators other than LMB would also be relevant.

Thanks,
FishinRod

Thanks for that additional info. (Which I kind of knew at a non-expert level.)

I will try to simplify my initial long-winded question a little bit.

We know that LMB feed less in winter as the water temps cool and there metabolism slows down.

I used to believe that they caught less forage at that time because they were sluggish due to the cold water and had poorer forage "capture" success, rather than the LMB just weren't hungry.

However, I think my speculation above has to be wrong, because the people that feed pellets note their fish going off the feed as winter deepens. Trophy-size LMB may be lazy, but surely they are not so lazy that they couldn't rouse themselves to eat a large pellet.

However, that train of thought lead to my poorly expressed reasoning of my initial question.

Would there be a significant impact in raising trophy bass if their rate of weight gain could be extended outside of their normal calendar range of maximum weight gain?


As you stated above, threadfin shad are not a significant food source for large LMB. We would expect gizzard shad to be far more likely to be sized correctly to be eaten by trophy LMB.

However, there are many places in the south that are excellent trophy LMB fisheries that have threadfins, but not gizzards.

Since TFS are more temperature sensitive than LMB, is there a time period in the fall where the TFS become so sluggish that a trophy LMB would make a meal out of the "wrong-sized" forage, because there is a window when the bass does not have to expend nearly as much energy to catch shad?

If that theory does not work because the TFS are just too small for the trophy LMB, would it work for tilapia? Would gorging on "right-sized" tilapia as the water cools be a way to convert a good LMB pond into a trophy LMB pond by having the bass put on "extra" weight in October(?), that they wouldn't get in a pond where they primarily fed on large BG?

P.S. Has anybody with tilapia that die off in the fall observed a top predator "gorging" event in their pond as the tilapia became sluggish?

My original post also contemplated supplemental forage as a way to enhance a trophy LMB pond. Adding crayfish to a pond where the LMB eat their fill of forage regardless, would not help raise trophy bass. However, I was considering the question of crayfish being consumed over some time period where the LMB were not eating their fill of their main forage. Supplementing those time periods could have a big effect on growth rates.

I realize most of the alternative forage is not at the proper size to be consumed by trophy LMB. I was instead considering the earliest periods of their lives. If a pond owner could turn 8" Florida strain LMB into 4# bass in one fewer season, then they would have a much greater chance of becoming hogs before old age begins to effect their growth rates.

I was just thinking out loud in this thread since you people hand feed me so much "food for thought" on Pond Boss!

Back in the day, stories were told about the CA fisheries trucks driving across dams to stock RBT, and huge schools, of huge LMB, were following the trucks all the way to the ramp they released the fish at. That tells me 2 things. 1, the RBT trout were released often enough so that the LMB knew meals were coming. And 2, CA had the resources to raise those RBT. That means hatchery ponds might be at the top of my list for forage of any kind when taking about double digit LMB. Hatchery fished released into an existing pond "should" be confused, and an easy target for LMB. Ewest has referenced acclimating newly stocked fish for survivability, and this would be the perfect time to not do that. We would want whatever is stocked to be eaten, not comfortable in their new environment.

Now, a few questions. There's no right or wrong answers, just curious.What would you be willing to spend per acre to get double digit LMB, and would you spend that money just to get one DD LMB? Would you be willing to reduce LMB numbers to a minuscule number to ensure that they got all the forage they wanted? Would you quit fishing for your LMB, knowing that one hook set could potentially mean that unless live bait was used, that fish may never bite again? I'm not even sure how I'd answer those.

If fun is any part of this, then consider hand feeding larger LMB. My boss and I would go to our hatchery pond, and catch 6-7 CNBG, GSF, or hybrids, and take them to our feeder pier at the same time every day. I would clip the tails so that they couldn't swim away, but their motion was very erratic. It took a week or two, but much like BG, LMB started showing up at that dock and were waiting for a handout. The largest LMB that came was approx 7-8#, and she was the most aggressive of the group. She would bully the smaller LMB out of the way, so we always threw out the largest CNBG first. If we threw out a smaller one, she would often leave even though she got a smaller meal, so feeding her the largest CNBG first was a priority. Zero effort required, 100% success for a meal.

In theory, an ideal seasonal strategy would be to stock tilapia when it's warm, trout when it's cold. TP sluggish as temps cool in fall/winter, so should be easy prey. RBT sluggish as temps warm in spring/summer, so they balance the TP seasonal tendencies. Both get big enough to fatten even a trophy size bass, but in most climates without the risk of taking over like gizzard shad might.

"In theory" covers a lot of ground. I've tried it, and seen very little gain in relative LMB weights. This despite feeding pellets all year, as the RBT are aggressive in most winter conditions. Too many bass, despite vigorous harvesting the last several years.

Maybe hand thrown large feed pellets would help the LMB grow, as the BG have a hard time eating them.

By the way, I remember reading that a captive LMB frequently fed 1lb RBT grew from 4 lb to 9 lb in just a few months. It can be done, and in California it was done. Of course, California is a magical kingdom where bees are fish, and fish are invertebrates, so who knows!

I never catch a clipped LMB, but that's just a de-tail.

The tail clipped LMB won't starve if it's pellet trained. If I can find the picture I will post it. I rotenoned a pond for a guy that raised LMB for the Oriental live market. He'd raise roughly 5,000# of LMB in a 1.5 ac pond. Took him about 18 months to go from 5" to 1.5#. This LMB somehow had it's tail cut off right behind the anal.secondary dorsal fin. It was about 1.5# and was able to evade the seine 4x when they seined the pond.

He had me rotenone the pond to kill any stragglers before they stocked the new batch of LMB.

As for the RBT in Ca. They didn't stock them to feed the bass. They stocked them for people to catch. The RBT that were stocked were around 10"-12", that's why the HUGE swim baits were invented. Lake Jennings in San Diego County, Dixon Lake in Escondido,Castaic Lake, etc. all received supplemental trout stockings once a month from roughly October until April (IIRC). I used to live in Oceanside, Ca and was only 25 miles from Dixon but never fished it.

A 25-1 was foul hooked at Dixon back in 2005. I don't know if it was ever caught again. It was a female that was getting ready to spawn. It was caught a few years (I think) earlier at 21 and change, they know it was the same fish because it had a black spot on it's right gill flap.

The first Spring I ever saw fat SMB followed the first year that I had stocked Tilapia in the SMB pond.

FishingRod:

Bob Lusk said that the LMB in Texas have the same length of growing season as the fish do here in the Midwest. Not only do the LMB not grow much in the winter, they don't grow much if the water gets too hot too. The hot water in the summer is a Texas problem that we here in Indiana don't have. So, the early winters and late Spring cool water up here is offset by the hot water down there. At least that's the way I understand it.

CA can have the same hot weather, but maybe not for as long of a time. I have seen 115°F daytime temps out there in Ca. BUT it cools down significantly at night. I didn't have an A/C system in the house and there was only a few days in the 10 years I was out there that I really wished I had A/C. Even with 100°F daytime temps., it would cool down to the 60's at night. Desert temp swings..... So, after I installed a couple of 2x4 opening skylights in the ranch style house, I'd open the windows, open the skylights and the house would cool down pretty quickly at night. I had a double wide front door, 2 sets of sliding doors in the master bedroom and a sliding door at the back of the house. LOTS of air would move through the house even if there wasn't much of a breeze.

Rod, at one time I refused to buy tilapia, as I considered them a bit of a trash fish raised in dubious circumstances. Now, though, I am pretty happy with the TP at the store. They are clean and taste about like most other white fleshed fish. Mild, so can be used in most recipes. (I enjoy cooking spicy dishes, whether Cajun, Indian, Chinese, Thai, etc.)

Personally, my absolute favorite way to cook TP is in a Brazilian shrimp & fish stew, "moqueca." You can look it up easily on the internet. Wonderful stuff, rivals gumbo but a very different vibe! The level of heat is controlled by the number of hot peppers used. probably best to start a bit under recipe recommendation since it is easier to add than subtract.

As for catching TP in the pond, I've had little or no success, even with Stubby Steves. Wish I knew the secret.

Thanks for the additional recipe ideas!

My side of the family all have cast iron stomachs - except for me.

The gumbo and jambalaya my wife and I eat would probably get us thrown out of Louisiana!

I remember lots of threads on Pond Boss from the members about using their tilapia for pond management. I don't remember a good one about catching finicky tilapia.

Maybe yours are just so happy in your pond that they don't need to hit any Stubby Steves.