Pond Boss Forums Thread Like Summary - New Member, New Pond, Questions

First post here. I live in New York's Hudson Valley. For the first year in our new house, we had a problem with standing water in our front yard. It was a soupy mess. We decided to put in a French drain, but upon digging we discovered two or three natural springs burbling up through the ground. We have clay soil here so our landscape guy suggested digging out a pond and draining the overflow to the drainage swale on our property line. This sounded too good to be true to me - I'd always wanted a pond, and this was like nature's way of insisting that I have one now...

So they dug the hole, about 15-20 ft in diameter, 4 ft deep in the lowest parts and it filled rather quickly. Since the initial fill, the level has steadily dropped. Yesterday I dropped a garden hose in there to try to bring the level up (since my wife is now beginning to worry that instead of a pond, we have a new mud pit in our front yard). It didn't seem to make much difference. The water level is still a good 6" below the level of the drain pipe. Now I realize the soil needs to compact and seal up, and the pond/hole has only been there for about two weeks. The landscape guy who dug the pond says it's just evaporation. Now granted we haven't had much rain the past few weeks, but it hasn't been hot and it seems evaporation shouldn't cause that much water loss, as it should be replenished by the spring. If this is evaporation, then I hate to see what might happen when we have a two or three week dry spell in July.

Is it possible the soil is still becoming compacted and hasn't fully sealed yet? Is it possible we need to use some sort of product to help seal it? Is it possible that I got talked into a pond but am going to end up with a muddy pit as the focal point of our front yard (which likely will lead to me being murdered by my wife)?

I've read other threads on similar cases, but thought I'd present my own set of circumstances and see what you guys thought. Thanks in advance for all advice and suggestions!

I agree on the 'wait and see' approach for now.

Sometimes with ground springs, they flow positive until the pressure/weight of the water in the new pond becomes too much to overcome.

I agree with Heppy.

A good analogy would be if you built an in-ground hot tub beside your swimming pool and used a connecting pipe to fill the hot tub.

The hot tub will fill up to the water level of the swimming pool. However, if you open the pool drain the water level in both will go down. If you had a check valve in the connecting pipe, then only the water level in the pool would go down and your hot tub would stay full (except for evaporation losses).

Unfortunately, it is not possible to put a "check valve" on a spring. However, it might be possible for you to cheat the spring a little bit!

Consider the pipe between the hot tub and the pool. If that pipe is 1 foot from the top of the pool, then water will go over to your hot tub every time the water in the pool rises above the pipe. If the drain is subsequently opened on the pool, then your hot tub will only drain to the level of the pipe - even if the pool is completely drained.

If one of your springs into your pond is very well defined, then you might be able to control your pond water level. Was there a nice sand/gravel spot of water inflow that you could observe when your pond was excavated?

One option would be to seal the sides and bottom of your pond and then drive a sandpoint on a 2" pvc pipe back into the location of the spring. (I would even drive it at a slight downward angle.) When the groundwater level is high, the spring will fill your pond. When the groundwater level goes down, then your pond will only drop to the level of the pipe. (Assuming your pond was perfectly sealed.) You could then make up evaporation losses with your hose if needed.

You could do a similar arrangement by building a gravel trench into the area of the spring (like a french drain) and then having a pipe connection to your pond. I would definitely recommend anti-seep collars in that situation to ensure a better seal for your pond.

Finally, you could even attempt to compact and seal your pond to the elevation of the springs, but then leave everything above that level uncompacted.

All of my hare-brained schemes are easier the more clearly the limits of your springs are defined.

Good luck on improving your pond project! It sounds like you have turned lemons into lemonade.

P.S. Another option is to just observe your water level for the first year. It may turn out that the low point of the groundwater level is still perfectly acceptable for your usage of the pond.

I would be surprised if a landscape guy has experience sealing a pond.

It doesn't seem like we have a solid water source for this pond that would keep things filled to the desired level.

I may be wrong, but in general, 'ground water' isn't really going to push up more in some spots as opposed to others; in other words, that ground water will be at the same level for that water table. Certainly it could rise or fall with rains or lack of rain, but it's not really a spring that flows out of some hole.

If you sealed up the pond basin, you could theoretically keep it topped off with city water, but you'd still have to contend with that tree's thirst. Even if you had no roots penetrating the new pond basin, roots would eventually grow through. That's why I was asking about that tree earlier in this thread.

I didn't read every post, but I would very strongly recommend using a rubber liner, and disregard the spring other than perhaps a nearby shallow well with a small pump in it for a source of water to keep it topped off. A few reasons why:

1. Initially the ash tree will rob you of water. More than you would think. Roots will regrow and they will be more than happy to grow back into the pond and cause problems.
2. The Ash will die. Emerald Ash Bore. The roots will rot or the tree will fall with roots all on one side removed. You will have more places to water to go or you will get a larger unwanted pond with a large root ball in it.
3. Your island is robbing you of a great deal of water volume. Remove it when/if you put in a liner and instead build a floating island if you still want one. The island will provide a refuge for future fish from herons, and will provide some shade to keep the water cooler and fish happier.
4. When/if you put in a liner, it will look much better at the front of the house, and the rubber acts as a weed barrier making it easier to maintain. Of course this means covering the exposed line with stone.
5. You can clean it out FAR easier than a clay bottom. Drain it with a trash pump, scoop out the crud with a bucket and rake. Brand spanking new again. Especially important with tree leaves.
6. You can run the water right up to the same level as the grass if you wish with the rubber liner. Border with rock cobbles, build shelves in the basin that holds plants, etc.

Expect about $1K or so in cost though, and you will need a felt liner between the soil and rubber to prevent punctures.

I have a 1/2 acre field pond, and a garden pond a little smaller than what you show here with a rubber liner. I only occasionally (2-3 times a summer at most) need to top it off with a hose when it gets one or two inches down as our evaporation rates in NY are just a hair shy of our precip rates. Meanwhile, the farm pond will be down 3ft from seepage and evaporation combined.

When I said 'city water' I just meant whatever water source you use at home, so yes, the well can be used.

Mule,

I originally typed a very long post to convey lots of information. However, for a new pond person I should have put the key points in bold.

One of the important ones was:

"If one of your springs into your pond is very well defined, then you might be able to control your pond water level."

The other key point was:

"Another option is to just observe your water level for the first year. It may turn out that the low point of the groundwater level is still perfectly acceptable for your usage of the pond."

It appears that you did not have to observe the groundwater level for an entire year to evaluate using groundwater to keep your pond full. If it is too low now, then imagine where it will be at the end of a dry summer. Unless you have a very well-defined spring that you can see dripping water down the bank of your pond, then I think you definitely need to scratch my suggestion!

The groundwater level is controlled by the amount of water into the system AND the amount of water drawn out of the system. Unless you had an exceptionally dry spring, then I believe Snipe is correct about the trees starting to draw significant amounts of water out of the groundwater system.

I definitely DO NOT support cutting down your tree to keep the pond. In my opinion, it is not your tree that is "stealing" the groundwater from your pond, it is ALL of the trees in the area that are now sucking up groundwater out of your aquifer.

After seeing the size of your pond, I personally really like liquidsquid's suggestion to install a liner. That is by far the most secure way to keep water in the pond and discourage roots so that they stay out of the pond. Many of the ponds on Pond Boss are too big for that option, but it should work very well for your pond.

Also, I believe your pond is going to be a "yard pond" with lots of trees sharing the area with your pond. Leaf build up in a pond leads to deposits of "muck", which eventually fills in a pond over time. Since you are going to have leaves and short grass in your yard, then some leaves are going to end up in your pond. However, if you have a liner in your pond, then it may be possible to use a pool vac or some other device to clean the muck and leaves from your pond bottom every few years. (I am not a pond liner guy, maybe one of those experts can chime in on the best way to reduce muck in your pond.)

I think installing a liner correctly, and then doing some attractive landscaping, and then keeping your pond topped off with well water should give you an excellent final result. (The liner installation may create a little berm around the pond. You can probably find some good ideas on the internet on how to turn your liner edging requirements into an attractive feature. That is exactly the kind of project I turn over to my better half!)

Good luck on your pond version 2.0!

P.S. Being "pond nuts" we all latched onto your pond design questions. However, your real reason for digging the pond was because your front yard was so soupy. Was your yard more useable this spring? If you do install a pond liner, then your pond will no longer serve to drain your front yard. However, you have now performed a long-term test on the interaction between your yard and the local groundwater aquifer. If you need better drainage in the future, you should now be capable of designing your own french drain or a similar solution.

Pro tip: Happy wife, happy life!

When I have been in a similar situation, it worked out well when I did the equivalent of going out to the yard when it was green and pretty and asking my wife how exactly she would like the pond shaped and situated, and what trees she would like in the yard, and where she would like them planted to have the yard just the way she wants it 10 years from now.

P.S. People on the forum really enjoy seeing good "after" pictures when you get the project finished the way you wanted it to go!

I didn't like the sound of only 32" depth, but then again with all the features dude is talking about, the 'pond' will never freeze up.

Those costs seem very, very high to me.

I would consider other options.

1) Fill the hole to within a foot of grade and use the space for a bog garden

2) French drain from the hole to the nearest drainage, fill the hole, cover with sod

3) Neighborhood mud wrestling pit - perfect for settling HOA disputes

FWIW It cost me $800 for both felt liner and the rubber liner 15 years ago. It was I think 40ftx30ft and I cut it down to size once I laid in the hole.
Search for pond liner suppliers on-line. PondBoss may have some great suppliers for this as well, though I don't know who is a supporter.
Anything over 20x20 is frigging heavy and awkward. You will need friends to help or a small tractor with a fork. I had a teenager slave labor.

Process is as follows:
1. Measure size, calculate depth and liner sizes needed. Order parts. (Measure what you have already)
2. Rent a machine for rough hole digging. The vast majority of material is removed this way. Use a small trash pump to keep water out when working. Or use existing hole, though you need to remove that island.
3. Dig hole with rough features with rented machine (maybe a few hours more to remove island). In your case maybe you will need to dig a drain out to a road ditch from the hole as well. Maybe a powered small dump to move soil elsewhere, or you can pile the soil as part of the pond feature on one side for plantings or future waterfall. Don't make too tall, spread wide and low or it will look like a mini volcano. (I was lucky and a neighbor had a machine and worked it for free, and I used a manual wheelbarrow to move soil, it was hard)
4. Use a laser-level and hand shovel to pull material from the basin and create a at least 1ft wide level rim around the perimeter. Use wood stakes with the level line marked to fill to. I set mine about 2" above surrounding lawn level to drape liner across as weed barrier. This is a lot of manual effort. Great way to get in shape. I'm too cheap to pay someone else to dig.
5. Manually create tiers/steps/bottom features to hold plants and allow yourself easy access to the basin. The stairs should angle towards the sides a bit so you don't fall in easily. Expect to slip in anyways when working on it, so always wear bathing suit once full. This process isn't too bad, but is manual work. For the most part it is just arranging soil in the basin to make the features. The key feature is a step starting at about 1ft under the water line that will support stones/cobbles from that point up and over the rim of the liner once the liner is in. A bonus would be to add a rim on the edge to prevent things from easily sliding down. A thick rope staked down would do the trick, or 0.5x1 treated lumber set down a little. You don't want to need stone all the way to the bottom. That can use pea gravel or leave bare or just a few larger rocks here and there. You can use landscape blocks for stairs, just be careful of sharp edges. Double up in the felt on those features if concerned.
6. Remove all roots and check for any sharp edges. Lay down the felt. It comes in easy to manage sizes.
7. Pull liner across with friends. Tamp down, re-adjust some features, push into corners, make folds as needed. Easy. Maybe an hour or two.
8. Cut liner to the outside of the rim you made, It should still go up and over and that's it.
9. Use baseball and larger size cobbles and start building up from the shelf. I interspersed with large rocks, 2ft diameter stuff for a natural look. Some I left isolated out in the water. I have plenty of rocks on my property to work with, but did need more rocks from a local gravel pit for more interesting stone. When all placed, use pea gravel and sand in the gaps. This sort of locks things in place.
10. Fill.
11. Buy some plants, get them in there where you would like.
12. Wait about a month before introducing fish. Rubber liner ponds take longer to settle the nitrogen cycle than soil-based. Goldfish can take it, but not much else.

Your largest problem may be the liner trying to float up from the high water table. Using a variety of stone and gravel to pin it down will be important. The drainage ditch for the groundwater to help with your wet spot could double as a source for water if your well isn't up to snuff.

Using your own labor, you can probably get the cost well under $3K total including ordering stone, pipe for drainage, and renting equipment.
Don't go deeper than 5ft, any deeper and it is hard to maintain. Use a simple air line to an indoor diaphragm air pump at the house. It is all you need to turn the water over and prevent complete ice-lockup in the winter.

That price you got quoted is OBSCENE. A flat out joke. Who would spend that much on a project that is rewarding, easy, and for the most part can do yourself unless you have health issues?

Pond Boss magazine devoted an entire issue to liners. It was a couple of years ago. Quite comprehensive.

They sell back issue copies. If interested, contact the PB office. Cheap education.

Bend Tarp Liner makes liners that are much more lightweight than the EDPM liners. https://www.btlliners.com/

Look at their AquaArmor line of pond liners. It's a fabric, so it's relatively thin and lightweight, but it's water tight and it's VERY tough. You can call them and get a small sample sent to you.

From reading the start of the thread to now it seems that you have a high water table in that area, and you dug the pond to have a place for the water to go. So, that precludes using a liner or sealing the pond, because when you do that then the water that is in the ground can't migrate to the pond.

If you line the pond, then you have to have a source of above ground water to fill the pond. Either runoff or a well/pump.

The stump has to come out of the pond if you want to keep and seal the pond.

If you want to keep the pond, then you will have to put in a liner or use SoilFLock or a similar product to seal it because the water in the pond is just the water level in the ground. There is really no "spring". The water level in the ground will bounce up and down according to how much rain/snowmelt you get.

In any case I'd dig a cistern in the front yard. It could be a tube stuck down in the ground with holes in it to allow water to get into the tube. You will have to use a filter material on the outside so it doesn't fill with soil. Put a hard top on it so nobody falls in or twists an ankle.

Have a pump in the ground attached to a float, like a sump pump. Have it attached to a "T" with one side going to the pond, another side going to the curb. Bore thru the curb to the gutter in the street, install that cistern, plumb it to the pond and to the hole in the curb. With the pond being lined, pump water into the pond from the cistern to keep the pond full, but during high water table times, pump the cistern dry and shove it to the curb. That way your yard will stay dry.