I have a post going in another thread but thought I’d start a new one here to see if I get anymore advice. have 0.4 acre pond dug last fall stocked with fhm. This spring I put in 100 perch 3-8”) and 50 res(3-4”). I put out a minnow trap last week in 3 different spots for no more than 10min in each location and caught 7what I believe to be standard bg. My plan was to have a yp, res, smb pond. Would it be wise to bite the bullet and start over now since it is unlikely SMB will keep up with the bg? How many years will I get before I have too many stunted bg and need to add lmb or start over then? My goals are to have a pond for the kids to swim in and do a little fishing. I’m not looking for trophy class sizes and would like to have enough to harvest for dinner a few times a year. Here is the pic of what is believed to be a bg. It may be a res I’m just thinking with the amount I caught in short period of time that it is unlikely the res spawned that much?
I have a similar pond here in Missouri. Only my HBG mess was self inflicted. Unfortunately the HBG I stocked, have reproduced, or crossed with the RES. I keep traps set all the time for raccoons and possums to help our turkeys. I find the HBG are great for baiting the traps. As an added aggravation, they continue to nip at swimmers. I did add golden shiners when I stocked the SMB. My golden shiners have continued to hang in there. The FHM disappeared very quickly. The SMB and YP made short work of them. The pond was actually loaded with them, as I stocked them alone a full year before I stocked anything else. My SMB have done well. Reproduced to a limited degree, but they cannot control the HBG/RES cross offspring. We have added YP a few times, as we enjoy eating them as much as we like catching them. I don’t think I would start over. Just catch and destroy all the BG that you can. If you haven’t added golden shiners, you might want to consider them. Biggest SMB we’ve caught so far. My lovely wife has the pond record.
That fish in the picture has no evidence of any ear tab, so how can anyone say with confidence what specie it is. RES and BG look very much alike when they are small enough the ear tab is not even apparent yet. The fish also to me looks to be stunted and not growing well (food shortage &/or just runts) ) because of the enlarged eye. Eyes continue to grow when food is limited for body growth. I think that fish is one of the slow growers (1"-2") that you bought from Stoney Creek as RES this spring. If it turns out to be a BG then IMO their RES were contaminated with BG.
One thing that would help identify the specie is to get a good picture of the gill rakers. BG will have long rakers and RES have short rakers. Another character that I use to separate BG from RES is the pectoral fin is longer for the RES. However it requires a fair amount of experience and numerous comparisons to use this feature.
Do the pictured fish have a long slender pectoral fin like the one at the bottom of this post? Look at the pectoral fin on the fish's side near gill (see fish below). If it is long and pointed and goes back to the middle of the dorsal fin it is at least part RES. BG pectoral fins are shorter and more rounded.
Adding one LMB into a population of SMB is I think a doable thing HOWEVER I would do it as a last resort if it is discovered the SMB population is not effectively keeping the RES from becoming over crowded.
IMO the current concern of an over abundance of YOY RES is unnecessary because the RES parentage was from Arkansas and now living in winters of southern MI. It is very possible that the pond could lose 90% of the current number of RES after trying to endure the 2024-25 MI winter. More on this later.
For RES that survive overcrowding will be evidenced by their average slow grow rates of each year class. IMO this likely will not occur because of the limited fecundity of RES as they have basically one spawn per year especially northern regions. Carlander’ Fishery Biology says Average fecundity of RES is 16K to 25K for average mature females. Whereas fecundity of BG ranges from 33K to 73K per female. Generally fewer eggs laid to me means less egg hatch resulting fewer fry survival each year.
It is very possible that a lot of the YOY RES will not survive during the Odessa MI winter conditions. Evaluating the RES numbers and recording all the catch results from numerous Z-trap sets in Fall and then doing the same number of traps sets again in Spring will provide a good estimate of the year class and how well the RES overall will survive in a Michigan pond.
IMO I think the YOY RES will not survive the MI winter very well as their parentage gene pool and history was adapted to the mild winter of probably Arkansas. Plus RES are well adapted to eating small mollusks as a major food item although they will also survive and eat insect larvae. With a large YOY crop of the RES main food of snails are likely sparse due to their high number and their over harvesting the pond’s main RES snail food reserve. Winter is the hardest season for fish survival. Thus lots of YOY, especially if not in good body condition with adequate fat reserves, will have to endure a colder winter than their genetic make-up is adapted to enduring. Thus I expect a majority of the YOY and some of the mature RES going into winter will die during the normal conditions of southern MI winters. Even in northern and central Ohio numerous RES are stocked and we get most all RES are never to be seen again after enduring winter’s snow and ice cover conditions.
If the RES each Spring are very abundant (doubtful) as evidenced by trap sets then I would buy a long beach seine to remove what you think are excess RES. IMO and experience the fewer of one specie that is present the better they grow and the larger the size they become. Allow yor SMB to accomplish one spawn and produce a crop of new YOY smallies to prey on RES fry. If excess RES persist after the 3nd or 4rd year, then I would consider adding more SMB or one LMB 10”-12” long as a helper tool to remove more RES per year than the SMB are eating.
Comments have expressed a hybridization concern of adding one LMB into a pond with just SMB predators. Hybrid LMbass have been reported, however reports indicate this mainly happens as a cross of LMB with spotted bass. Very, very rarely have their been reports of a hybrid LMB X SMB occurring. The hybrid LMB bass have been called “mean mouth bass”. I have looked into this and IMO the hybrid bass has been over exaggerated and as I noted it most commonly occurs with LMB X Spots. If the “mean mouth” was a real doable thing some adventurous fish farm would be naturally hybridizing and producing these 'mean mouth' hybrids by crossing SMB with LMB. None exist and it is not done by fish growers I think for a very good reason. See next.
Let’s look at this from a perspective of biological and behavioral processes for the spawning of LMB and SMB. As you will see there are unique spawning behaviors that LMB and SMB use to recognize and utilize the same specie as a spawning partner. These behaviors are strongly engrained into each of the spawning species behavior. These specialized behaviors are different for very good evolutionary reasons for the keeping the specie reproductively isolated. IMO the chances are very slim or none for one LMB getting a SMB to naturally spawn with it. Thus IMO there is almost no chance that Josh will see any hybrid mean mouth bass in his pond. If Josh can produce any ‘mean mouth bass’, these will be highly valuable as an extremely rare fish to use for barter, sharing or exchange. I would pay high dollar for some of them. Note -- there may be no need for adding a LMB to his pond because IMO the RES survival of YOY will be minimal after each MI winter.
Pay attention of individual unique different spawning behaviors for each of the fishes of the pair of LMB and the SMB. Spawning behaviors of lots of animals especially birds are uniquely different that help dramatically to keep then as separate breeding species. Other wise mass hybridization would be commonplace.
LMB spawn at 59F-75F with mostly actual egg laying at 62-65F. Males leave the nest to search for ripe females. Male attracts females to the nest using courtship displays and rapid changes of body color patterns. LMB Males use nudging, nipping, and parallel swimming. Then the male positions vertical and female 45deg. One detailed study found that LMB spawning usually happens around dusk. The LMB Male circled the female & bit her flank as she moved away. Then the female returned to the nest and turned with her head slanted & pointed downward and appeared to float in this position appearing motionless and half dead. Male LMB also assumed this position. Then both laid on the bottom side by side with tails parallel. Then one turned partly on its side as eggs were laid and fertilized. Shortly both moved out a short distance as the female stayed in the head down in the floating position fashion. For 30 minutes the two repeat the lying on the bottom with female in head down floating position and then with both lying close together on the bottom as movements are repeated as noted above as more eggs were laid and fertilized.
SMB egg deposition most often at 61-65F. Spawn behavior: Fishes of WI indicate that SMB will generally spawn a little sooner when both SMB & LMB are present. Thus there is often a temperature spawning difference and preference between these two species. Behaviors - As SMB female moves into nest the male turns on his side with dorsal spines fully distended toward her, male and female go through considerable pre-spawn activity of display rubbing & nipping. Eventually they rest side by side on the bottom very close to touching bottom with the male vertical and female tilts 45deg as male remains upright w/ head just back of her pectoral fin or opposite of it. When Female is “ready” for egg drop she has a marked color change as dark mottling becomes prominent while the background color fades as she also displays peculiar fin movements when eggs are released.
Spotted bass spawn behavior appears to be less complex compared to LMB & SMB. Spotted males actively court a receptive female by circling and guiding her around in the nest while biting at her gill cover and vent. This encourages her egg drop as the male releases milt to fertilize the eggs. This less complex spawning behavior of Spotted bass maybe suggests why the hybrid Spotted bass (aka as ‘mean mouth bass) are much more common in nature compared to LMB X SMB.
I don't think the first fish is 100% BG. Check the gill rakers. Note that the bars on the side of the fish stop at the lateral line. That would be uncommon for a pure northern BG.
The communications I had with the DNR/DEQ in MI about HSB was that if your pond had no connection inbound or outbound to another water trail leading to another body of water then HSB are OK. They are not on the prohibited list. It doesn't make sense to me to have this gray area of fish that are not necessary mentioned as allowed or recommended and at the same time not prohibited either. Tilapia fall in that same category where it seems they want their official policy on Tilapia to be purposely suppressed but yet keep them off the prohibited list as well.
I would love to see how your RES do. If you can overwinter I may try again (and now I know where I can get some too My initial stockers did not survive long. I think I had one winter and 2 summers with them but by the 2nd winter they didn't make it. My pond isn't as deep and the last winter had much more snow cover and less sunshine.
Without our more mild winters lately they might do well.
Post more pictures if you happen to catch any larger 'bluegill' and we can see what they are
In 0.4 acre, you might be able to control BG numbers through angling. I have a 0.5 acre SMB/YP/CC/RES/BGxRES pond and remove a few hundred BGxRES by fishing every year to keep their numbers reasonable. (1-2 hours every other week during the warm months.) Since I feed regularly (about 5 days a week), about a third of the BGxRES are eating size. The pond record is a 13 1/4" 2 1/2 pounder. YP are doing well, the CC are eating small fish and pellets and then getting turned into blackened catfish (yum), and I caught a 20" SMB last week. I am happy with the situation.
How much fishing do you want to do? How much would you be willing to spend to reset the pond? Can you be sure no more BG will get into it in the future?
That is a dandy smb setter! I don’t mind fishing them a few times a week I just know our summers get busy with sports and I don’t want fish nipping at swimmers as I would say that is our main use for the pond. I don’t know how much it cost to poison the pond but since I only have the yp and res in now I’d rather do it then after I get smb(they are not cheap!)
Bill he's talking about the YP. They were 21/2"-3" Max (I measured them).. I was giving Ron a hand bagging fish for the customers to take home. JoshMi. did they all make it O.K.? I finally pulled in the door tonight just as it was getting dark out and my 7am Delivery tomorrow morning called and wants me to get there by 6. And he's 90 miles away.........
IMO you are not going to get "real" good predation or thinning of the 1.5"-2" RES using SMB even when SMB are 10" long. Just my opinion. IMO I don't think SMB are nearly as aggressive sunfish predator compared to LMB. Smallies do eat sunfish but I think and I know that they are not a main item in their diet when other types of foods are available. Now if your panfish were YP then yes SMB would be VERY good at thinning 1"-2", 3"-4" YP or other easy to catch and swallow foods. If you were a fish and had to quickly swallow your food whole, what would you rather eat a hot dog or something shaped like a can lid?
Of coarse this all depends on the size of the smallies. For your case I hope I am wrong.
Depending on your end goals for the fishery these will determine how many and what size SMB that you stock. However --- you are probably going to be size limited as to what size of smallies you can even buy. Few if any are larger than 8" and most will be 2"-4" and some Ron (as noted above) now has are 5"-7" and maybe a very limited number around 8". A month ago all Ron's SMB were spoken for and no 2024 year class would be available. A few things changed with his buyer so now Ron does have some limited numbers of YOY smallies this fall. YOu better put your order in quickly.
Obviously the larger the smallies at stocking the larger fish or foods that they will eat. The fewer the smallies you stock the faster they will grow toward big sizes. And the more smallies you stock, the more fish that will be eaten and the less their average sizes will be or eventually become. For optimum growth until they die, it is very important the fish are eating and growing the best they are able to grow each day. Less predation pressure vs more predation pressure influence number to stock. Then again how predatory are SMB on small RES vs SMB eating preference for FHM that are also quite abundant in the pond?? I recall you are feeding fish pellets. Remember Ron's smallies are pellet trained and some may trend toward eating welfare pellets because it is EASY food,,, no chasing needed. IMO predators are basically lazy wanting to fill their belly the quickest with the least amount of effort - aka Optimal Foraging Theory.
Again however, I think the smallies will trend to eat more FHM this fall compared to small RES. Thus the current YOY RES will continue to grow and need to be thinned with angling, traps, and some periodic seining. RES do enter traps well similar to BG especially when using the Z trap versions.
Goals - If you want eventually larger SMB then initially stock fewer SMB. If you want more predation of small fish effects then stock higher numbers of SMB/ac.
If it were my pond that had the apparent high number of YOY RES AND I had access to a nearby mature SMB fishery, I would definitely make an attempt to get a few 8"-14" SMB for transport to my pond as tools for consuming small sunfish be they RES or possibility those unwanted BG. Temperature Stressed YOY RES would be very easy catch food for predators big enough to eat them. The main negative of doing this IMO would be the larger SMB might eat a few of the 4"-6" stocker smallies.
When holding and transporting a few mature SMB be sure to have ample water for hauling to minimize stress as mostly low dissolved oxygen on the smallies that had already been stressed due to the angling and physical handling. One does not want to go to all the trouble of going and catching a few smaller bass and then have them die after restocking. IMO one cannot have too much water for hauling mature fish. IMO 10 gallons of bubbler aerated water minimum for EACH fish would be adequate IMO for holding and hauling them for 1 to maybe 3 hrs. Adding one pound of non-iodized salt to the hauling water of around 40 gallons will help reduce hauling stress. A plastic barrel with the top cut off or a large plastic garbage can would be good transport containers. You can put a garbage bag liner in the container & tie it shut to keep the water from sloshing out of the container.
Getting non pellet trained RES and YP to eat pellets at the surface is a challenge that requires diligence and patience. The best success reported here and by others of getting RES to eat pellet food on the surface is to use Optimal bluegill food (2 sizes available) that is composed of a large percentage of short worm like pellets. The pellet flavor shape reportedly appeals to RES feeding habits. Bruce Condello swears by the food for getting RES to eat pellets. If the YP were feed trained when purchased they and many other species will often be attracted to the feeding area by the minnows working on the pellets. I have found that YP are much more likely to eat pellets at the surface from when the sun hits the horizon until darkness (the crepuscular period) . The closer to darkness the better the YP will feed at the surface.
One trick to get RES, YP & bass to eat pellets is to make the pellets moist and moldable as rolled / oval shaped pellets that sink. This type of food has the excellent flavor and texture of live food and is very readily accepted by most any fish. It takes extra time to do all this,, but the benefits of creating pellet eating fish far out weigh the time involved. I regularly hand feed moist food to all my fish. It does not take long each night to soak food for the next day's hand feeding. Another BIG benefit to the moist food is you can mold it onto a hook whenever you want to catch a fish. My prior posts have talked about softening food and there was my article in PB mag about doing it,
May June 1998 special pellet feeding issue. The Softer Side of Feeding Fish By Bill Cody
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My initial stockers did not survive long. I think I had one winter and 2 summers with them but by the 2nd winter they didn't make it. My pond isn't as deep and the last winter had much more snow cover and less sunshine.
