Pond Boss Forums Thread Like Summary - recommendations for northern YP/SMB/BT pond

I apologize in advance for the long winded post, however I am seeking some advice on the final steps of my dream pond that is nearing completion about a year and a half after starting it.

It is a 1.4 acre pond in New England that is 22' deep, fed by watershed and groundwater and am looking for recommendations on stocking, forage selection, habitat and water chemistry. I have spent a lot of time as a silent spectator on here, learning a great deal along the way. I have read and reread every book I can find on the topic and it has become a bit of an obsession, so I want to get it right. My goals, in order of priority, are:
1. large YP with a self-sustaining population (I'd be thrilled with 10-12" perch)
2. an adequate SMB population to keep a good balance. If I could raise 3-4 lb bass I'd be very happy. They are so fun to catch and taste great as well.
3. brook trout. Although it has running water going into it 99% of the time, an expert on the matter recently educated me on the highly unlikely chance that BT would recruit in meaningful numbers in this fishery, therefore I'll likely stock them at 6"+ to avoid predation by the SMB and expect trout to be a put and take bonus.
4. esthetics. This pond is adjacent to our yard and is a focal point of our property (55 acres of forest, nothing concerning in the watershed).
5. the geothermal temperature exchange for the heating and cooling of the house. This is a contained (closed loop) system that does not circulate pond water.
6. swimming. I am putting in a small beach with non-woven geotextile fabric as a base, pea gravel instead of sand, and lined with Eastern hemlock logs to keep it all contained.
7. fire protection, on the worst day.

After scouring through this resource and any others I could find, I have tentatively selected the following forage:
1. FHM (a universal and easy choice). I have 16 pounds on order now and will be adding them in the next couple weeks when they arrive.
2. Eastern silvery minnows. This seems like a rarer option, however from what I know they could be the perfect forage for this fishery. They max out at less than 5" and are more typically about 3". I can buy them by the 1000 but not until ice-up in the winter, therefore I was planning on adding 1000 as soon as I can get them (probably mid January). GSH are easy to get, however I am leaning away from them given their bait stealing tendencies when they grow beyond the sizes that SMB tend to prefer.
3. I'm considering adding PK shrimp from the eBay source who has been mentioned several times on here. I don't see any downside to them if I can get them to thrive in my fishery although I have some doubts about how well they will do with my current water chemistry (particularly calcium and hardness, see below).
4. papershell (calico) crayfish. These seem to be highly regarded for a fishery such as this. Water hardness and calcium may be a limiting factor with how prolific they will be, however I have found virile crayfish in there already so I will give them a try.
5. The naturally occurring forage that has already moved in includes green frogs and their tadpoles (by the thousand), along with Eastern Red Back salamanders and toad tadpoles. I expect the frogs and their tadpoles may be more palatable than the toads and salamanders. If the green frogs aren't decimated by the fish, I may add some bull frog tadpoles in future years as well, in hopes of an occasional frog leg dinner.

I will also be hand feeding with whichever of the top brands of feed (Optima, Purina, etc.) that I can get delivered locally.

Habitat includes 36 tons of stone that I have added as rock bars, rock piles and erosion control. Stones range in size from 3"-40". Cattails have found there way in and I'll be doing my best to manage their spread. A rush or some sort has found it's way naturally as well. I'll add wild rice seed next Spring and am considering pickerel weed, cardinal flower and iris. I'll be adding SMB spawning beds a la Dr. Cody's articles, as well as YP spawning habitat when they need it and some structures I have made specifically for FHM spawning.

The pond is a DIY labor of love that I started about a year and a half ago. I got it about 1/3 done and let it be for about six months while I deployed last year. It filled quickly and held water well. After 1-2' of top soil, it is dense grey clay all the way to China as far as I can tell. After the clay turbidity settled out, the water was the color of ice tea, as is every other waterbody nearby. Although oak is often implicated in tannin stained waters, I believe that Eastern Hemlock is the primary tannin producer here. After letting it be for six months, there were no emergent plants below about 2' of water depth, likely due to the decreased light penetration I am guessing. Despite the dark color, there was a distinct thermocline below about 3' deep even in late summer.

I collected a water sample from the watershed (not the pond itself, as it was still very turbid with suspended grey clay). Here are the results with * denoting lower than optimal levels:
Hardness 15 ppm*
Calcium 4.26 ppm*
Alkalinity 4 ppm*
pH 6.22
Salinity 0.031 ppt*
Nitrite 0.010 ppm
Total ammonia nitrogen 0..47 ppm
Unionized ammonia 0
Chlorides 40ppm
Total nitrogen 1.1 ppm
Total phosphorous 0.05 ppm

After searching far and wide for pellet trained YP and SMB, I have finally found some and plan to put them in around early October. They are expected to be 3-5" by then.

Thanks for sticking with me so far. Now for my questions, in order of priority:

1. Is the stocking of 3-5" YP and 3-5" SMB at the same time a bad idea? I understand that it is not the typical approach, however I will be sourcing them from very far away, so I'm hoping to only make one trip (early October). How many of each is recommended?
2. Does the forage and habitat seem adequate? What adjustments would you recommend regarding species and quantity? For those who have tried Eastern Silvery Minnows, what has your experience been with them?
3. How many crayfish should I add? When is the appropriate time to add them?
4. TAMU offered the following recommendations regarding the water test: 2 tons of calcium carbonate (ag lime) to increase alkalinity, hardness and calcium and and 1.5 tons of non-iodized salt. I haven't added them yet, partly because I haven't had the opportunity to and partly because I wonder if their impact will be only transient. I estimate that I am getting a full pond turn over about every 10 days, meaning that if the pond was pumped dry, it would refill in about 10 days. This same watershed supports naturally reproducing brook trout populations who seem to be doing ok with this water chemistry. What is the advise of the experts here regarding this?
5. When should I add trout, and about how many would you suggest (given that YP and SMB are my #1 and #2 priority)?
6. Should I anticipate needing aeration? Unfortunately I don't have any DO numbers to share yet. Is there a DO meter that is reasonably priced and reliable?

Thank you in advance for any input that you have. I'll get some habitat photos up soon.

Mainer

Pellet Feeding rings or frames are to keep pellets from floating to shore and becoming uneaten food that grows unwanted algae. I use wind baffles on my rings. I use vinyl siding cut into strips so it has 2"-3" above and below water. Aggressive fish feeding activity splashes lots of pellets out of a ring with no baffle.

See this thread where near the bottom ewest show pictures of TJ's creative and very successful fry production way of building SMB nesting sites on top of a pallet to keep it more out of the bottom sediment.

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92626

I have a sample size of one pond and got my recommendations on spawning structure here. I have been far more successful than my expectations but I have not tried other structures. I built semicircles facing the bank with large rocks and filled in the bottom with softball-size rocks. I have all sizes of SMB in the pond so it seems to have worked for me.

Feeding pellet trained perch high protein pellets will create a dream fishery for you. With the correct predatory pressure and population management you should easily catch one nice sized jumbo perch every 1-3 minutes. When you are catching mostly YP less than 8" long, the pond does not have enough predators eating the 3"-5" YP or you are not manually adequately thinning out enough of the small YP 2"-5" long. A correct number of predators will do this removal of small perch for you. Catching a jumbo perch every 20 minutes means the pond has too many predators eating too many of the young perch.

The forage base is finally getting started. I added 20 pounds of FHM today and have 20 dozen papershell crayfish coming next week. My source for eastern silvery minnows can’t get them until December, so I’ll order extra with the assumption that the YP and SMB that are going in this Fall will get many of them.

For now, it has several thousand tadpoles of variety species of toads and frogs, but predominantly green frogs. They look a lot like a bullfrog but don’t get as big. I’ve considered stocking bullfrog tadpoles, but I think I’ll hold off for now.

There are several species of plants coming in, all of which showed up naturally. One of my next projects will be identifying them.

I’m enjoying the journey.

Understanding that you want to add CC and YP to the existing newly stocked FHM&shiners, BG and LMB. You can do this, however you shouls understand what the fishery will be after 5-8 yrs.
Without going into a lot of detail:

1. Understand that CC do not "clean" the bottom. After they are around 16-17" they become predatory and are equivalent to a similar sized LMB. CC anglers like to use fish (live or dead) for bait. CC eat fish at night while LMB eat fish mostly during the day. One CC realistically takes the place of one LMB. CC can be good esp if you plan to remove them and eat them.

2. If you feed pellets, CC become pellet hogs and grow fast, both good and bad depending on opinion.

3. The FHM minnows will remain usually until the first spawn (recruitment) of LMB grows to 6"-8" and original stockers are 10-13" long. By then the bass will have eaten all the FHM despite how many FHM that you now have present. Unbelievable but true. EACH growing 12 " LMB can eat around 12-16 lbs of small fish per year. Do the math. Just 10 lbs of small fish X 50 LMB = 500 lbs of small fish.
Watch for what happens to the visual minnow density after the first bass spawn. FHM are basically used to jump start a new bass fishery to quickly get good sizes. After that jump start and bass are reproducing, any newly added FHM are only quick snacks which is why BGill are almost always used as the main long term forage food for LMB. Fish farms LOVE to sell FHM as quick snacks each year to pond owners who do not realize what existing LMB do to the new stocker FHM.
Golden shiners in some weedy ponds after 3-5yrs can sometimes maintain a resident low population density of large 7"-8" shiners IF good abundant cover is present. Good abundant cover is not a few X-mas trees. Good cover is 20%-30% of the shoreline with dense cover such as brush, etc. 1 to 4 ft deep. , .
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92463#Post92463


4. YP will do well with FHM, BG, & LMB (CC) temporarily. Emphasis on temporary. Once the LMB reproduce the first time,,,,, the 10"-12" LMB stockers and all LMB offspring begin eating high percentages of the slender bodied easy to catch young YP to the point after 4-5 years of bass reproducing,,, the LMB and existing larger CC as predators, they consume all or most all YP offspring; thus there will be very few if any new YP in the fishery after 5-7yrs. A 16" LMB can and do eat 6"- 8" YP. One 12"-14" LMB can eat around 350-500 fish per year. Do the math for the number of bass in your pond. The original stocker YP (10"-11") will be about the only YP remaining as the pond ages past 4 yrs. YP will have a life span of around 8 yrs. My studies show YP with LMB are not a good idea together unless lots of weeds or dense habitat (30%-50%) is present to protect young YP. . In a clean pond, LMB tend to eat all skinny body YP reproduction first, then bass will begin eating primarily BG. By then BG could be trending toward over crowding due to the bass for several years eating mostly the easy to catch and swallow YP while allowing BG to reproduce and often become overabundant. Exceptions do occur but rarely.

The only YP-LMB combos that I see successful are ones where every LMB larger than 10" that are caught are harvested. This allows some 6"-8" YP to be present and spawn to produce some new annual crops of young YP.

YP are best stocked with SMB and or hybrid striped bass, both have smaller mouths thus eating smaller YP while the predators have a lot less annual predator reproduction.

Was the added rock limestone ? If so, that will help craws, PKs and alkalinity.

I would add the ag lime to start but not all the salt. I would wait to be sure the salt was needed and only add in small amounts.

Agree on stocking plan + Sunil's comments. Long term my guess is you will need more forage base with YP , trout and SMB. FYI YP are known to stunt so you and the SMB will need to control that.

If you don't have this book suggest to get it.

Attachments

You might already have spawning habitat for SMB and YP taken care of with all that gravel, depending on placement. Forming specific beds for the SMB is a good idea, however. Logs near your SMB beds are supposed to be good habitat for SMB fry; if placed with a vertical component, YP may like them for spawning as well.

WRT fire protection, put in a dry hydrant! Contrary to what subdivision developers claim, they are not hard to do - my wife and I got ours right with no experience after attending a NRCS workshop on them. Make sure you interface with your local fire department so the outlet matches what they will be hooking up to.

Those rocks gonna pay big dividends in fish currency. They look fantastic!!!

SMB like to utilize spawning structure that has 2"-3" rocks in it with a backstop on the shore side of large rocks or a large log. They will spawn on pea gravel, but the coarser material is better.

I have had great success in using the pallet, #2 limestone and cinder blocks like TJ posted years ago. I have had SMB start using them within a few weeks of putting in the pond when water temp was 60°F in the Spring. 2'-4' water depth. I used plastic netting on top of the pallet to keep the rocks from falling through the openings and plastic pallets are best because they don't degrade over time.

Since my pond is new, I decided to add some FHM spawning habitat. I got the idea from an old publication from the University of Maine Cooperative Extension called "Baitfish for Fun and Profit in Maine". Our house is being built, so I took some scrap untreated 2x6 and 2x8, laid them out on the patio, laid a piece of plastic string (poly electric fence) over the top and stapled it in place. I put 5 of them in the pond in 4-14" of water with a wooden stake on each end to keep them in place. I suspect they may mimic a lily pad (which I thankfully do not have). I may go down there with a battery operated grinder and wire wheel and rough up the underside so the eggs adhere better.

I haven't seen this particular publication referenced on here before but it has some useful information that is worth sharing. It has chapters on GSH, FHM, white sucker, long nose sucker and rainbow smelt cultivation. Although I have found that links on here often don't work well, here is the web address to where I found it:
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/230047592.pdf

My pond water is still settling out and is therefore more turbid than it will eventually be. Although I have read that FHM are tolerant of turbidity, mine seem particularly attracted to the in flowing water. I suppose it's also possible that I'm seeing more of them there because it's clearer there. I suspect that although they are tolerant of the turbid water, they still probably prefer clearer water.

Besides the runoff from the natural drainage, I discovered a few small springs that were bubbling up. The photo doesn't give perspective unfortunately, but they are about the size of a baseball. Should I try to cap these with compacted clay so they don't become the source of a leak? At full pool, they will be about 6-8' under water. If so, any advice on how to do so? It seems that springs can be a blessing or a curse, and I'm a rookie so I'm not sure how to decide between the two.



Thank you to everyone who has helped me along the way. This is such a great forum with such a wealth of knowledge.

An update on progress:

I stocked about 4,000 FHM in mid Summer and they started spawning almost immediately. That was followed by papershell crayfish and at least one other species of crayfish that showed up naturally (I believe they are virile crayfish, but I haven't definitively ID'd them yet). I have also trapped a few shiners that made their way naturally, although I haven't definitively ID'd what species. Some PK shrimp went in next, followed by 6-7" YP and 5" SMB (see my post on Extended Transport Times).

As a skim of ice was setting in on the pond a couple weeks ago, I finally got a chance to add some ag lime. The recommendations from TAMU suggest 4,000 of lime to bring the alkalinity above 20ppm (my initial water test showed only 4ppm). I was only able to get 1,400 lbs but I figured it was a start, and I'll put the rest in just before Spring.

I have an 11' plastic boat that I built a platform for. I then unloaded 200 lbs of ag lime at a time onto the platform and spread it as equally as I could by hand throwing it with a plastic scoop. It was not as inefficient as I expected it might be, and it was a good shoulder workout. Here is a photo of my low tech, low budget set up. I wouldn't want to do it on a 5+ acre water body, but for my 1.4 acres it worked fine.



My plan for the remaining 3,000 lbs of lime is to spread it on the ice using my little tractor with a 3pt hitch fertilizer spreader that can take 400 lbs at a time. I'll do this towards the end of the winter, just before the ice starts to melt. My hope is that it will settle into the pond basin fairly evenly as the ice thaws.

Soon after that, I'll be out looking for egg ribbons from the YP.

I have a source for Eastern Silvery Minnows and have done a significant amount of reading about them. Typical adult size for them is about 3.5", which seems about perfect for my fishery. Dr. Cody has helped a great deal throughout this entire project including advising on this somewhat obscure forage species that seem to reproduce very readily in a pond environment. They are typically only available in the winter, so I'll be stocking them soon. If all goes perfectly, they will spawn around the same time as the YP, offering my YP a plentiful food source as they develop from fry to adults.

The geothermal went in a couple months ago and is working great to heat the new house so far, costing less than $1/day in electricity to run it ($6/day before my solar array went in).



Thanks again for all of the advice from this community.